BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...

Subject: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 03:28 PM

It's people that are the problem remember, not the guns.

Some guy in Umpqua was quoted saying "We never expected something like this to happen here," and while that complacency remains the norm in the thousands of US communities yet to be touched by these occasional cullings, the gun lovers need not feel threatened. But by all means let's have the usual hand-wringing for a couple of days.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 03:35 PM

It's the 142nd school shooting since Sandy Hook. That's about one school shooting per week. Problem? What problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 05:45 PM

I wonder when we'll get a statement from these guys?

http://www.surgc.org/
http://www.rrgclub.org/

The first one looks particularly sinister. The second one's website is so crap I can't get it to load far enough to tell.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 07:05 PM

"As the sheriff in Douglas County, Oregon, John Hanlin was front and center following Thursday's shooting at Umpqua Community College, which left at least 13 dead and 20 wounded.

Two years ago, Hanlin was one of hundreds of sheriffs around the country to vow to stand against new gun control legislation. In a January 15, 2013, letter to Vice President Joe Biden, he wrote, "Gun control is NOT the answer to preventing heinous crimes like school shootings."

Read his letter to vice president Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 07:22 PM

You might want to reconsider calling yourself "GUEST", given what "Anonymous" was responsible for here:

http://www.candidslice.com/killer-posted-warning-on-4chan-hours-before-umpqua-community-college-massacre/

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 07:26 PM

Problem? What problem?

No problem at all - what we need in the U.S. is MORE guns in the hands of idiots so we can resolve everyting a la OK Corral.

Cest fini.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 07:50 PM

The answer is rocket launchers for all school students. No one would dare attack them then.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 08:11 PM

http://www.nrtoday.com/news/4397135-113/hanlin-gun-letter-sheriff

Note that letter was sent to the VP back in January 2013. The same sheriff was 'in charge' after today's shooting in Oregon. I wonder if his views have changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 08:23 PM

Nothing will change, it seems pretty certain. It's not the gun laws really, is it? It's the gun culture you are stuck with. The best gun laws in the world won't change that for the better. Can anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 08:31 PM

i suppose Americans can't really be bothered - otherwise they would do something about it. they can't really say its totally unexpected after all these different incidents.

is the root cause american society driving people nuts, or is it the prevalence of guns.

after all there are a lot of losers in American society. no real health service. no tradition of 'safety nets', and all the culture is about high achievers, big earners, etc.

i suppose the fear of falling down one of the fissures and never getting back on your feet - plus the guns - well its a heady mix!

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,🔫
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 08:53 PM

What's the greatest, most lethal threat to America,
ISIS or Americans ?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 09:37 PM

Latest from CNN: the gunman was Chris Harper Mercer, age 26. Ten dead, seven hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 09:40 PM

Maybe it would help if we could get across the idea to our people that there is nothing exciting or laudable or heroic about shooting the innocent and defenseless. But until our "hunters" understand that shooting for sport the innocent and defenseless is also not exciting or laudable or heroic we're probably not going to change.

Or maybe it would help if we got the message across to them by calling them 'creeps' and 'losers' instead of shooters and gunmen.

It's gone beyond sad to infuriating.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 09:46 PM

Tell that to your legislators. And deny the NRA lobbying time in your nation's capital.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Oct 15 - 10:52 PM

Guest, sorry I duplicated your link re the letter to Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Stu
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 03:09 AM

The whole situation is pathetic in so many ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 03:42 AM

If you are happy having your students murdered, good luck to you. If your government isn't bothered - there have been enough incidents like this is the last few years, so it's nothing new - why should we care less here?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 04:51 AM

why should we care less here?

out of humanity, maybe.....its very sad when you see the weeping parents who have sent their kids to school, or the cinema. places that should be safe.

i feel very sorry for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:21 AM

I have debated gun law and felt compassion over and over again, what has America done about their losses. What comes across to me is that it is far more important for the republicans to block any changes the democrats are trying to bring about than care about human lives. The people of America got what they wanted. And the spokesperson I heard on the news today who spouted on that it was all down to the students who were attacked not carrying guns themselves says it all really. There is only so much compassion in the world to go round, and US is doing little to get their share of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 05:44 AM

that is indeed a very strange view to take

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 06:59 AM

I can understand SPB's point. Viewed from a safe distance these atrocities look like a novel form of population control. Many Americans love it, so what the hell? (How many in Roseberg campaigned against their own sheriff's views on gun control when he wrote to the Vice President?)

I'm not sure whether the views ascribed by SPB to some Republivcans is actually party policy. If it is, they might consider providing a gun to every toddler. The cost could be offset by savings on the law-enforcement payroll. It would cerainly push up the body counts, though I would suggest simple six-shooters so that toddlers are limited to six murders without reloading.

On the question of law enforcement, the US has an admirable record of murdering perps rather than wasting time and money on bringing them to trial. This is just as the perps would expect. Staying alive to face their own shamed and ruined families and to dwell for a few years on the wider misery they've sown would lack glamour.

Ebbie is right that the glorifying terminology is unhelpfu. At the very least let's call them "gunpersons" rather than "gunmen" and have some positive discrimination. That way a few women might be encouraged to get involved. My impression - again from a distance - is that blacks are also under-represented.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:43 AM

the Americans you meet are such nice people - it seems a shame they should have to live with that danger.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:56 AM

America is a place those killed were people regardless of what the country's laws are when we stop feeling compassion for victims we lose our humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:28 AM

Roseburg has a population of only 20,000, managed to support TWO gun clubs at least (one of them a hard-line NRA front) and has voted a gun-nut Republican to represent them for years.

You have to wonder how many of the "victims" simply got what they'd voted for and played at in their spare time.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,🔫
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:28 AM

Terminology:

Gunman ? Gunperson ?

Much more appropriate would be Gunmoron, Guncretin,
or even better, using colloquial language to appeal to big brave young outlaws at that 4chan forum [link posted by Jack Campin]
Guntards.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 08:49 AM

"You have to wonder how many of the "victims" simply got what they'd voted for and played at in their spare time."

That is the same attitude that says a girl deserved to be raped because she wears a short skirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 09:08 AM

Are there any women here?

(Hi Ebbie)

The reason I ask is because 81% of mass shooting victims are women & children.

Women shot dead out number men killed by domestic gun violence.

It was primarily women who helped the most in the ban the bomb movement in the early days. It was women who led the anti drunk driving movement.

There is no political will by 20 year old white males to politicize gun violence.


The reason a women's movement about this issue is so sadly deflated is partly due to previous failed attempts for reform like the one presented to Congress after the New Town massacre.


How will you die? No doubt in the usual way except there is one new development. Due to safer cars and deadlier guns the odds are now equal that you could die by a car or a gun at the rate of ~ 35,000 each per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 09:15 AM

Due to safer cars and deadlier guns the odds are now equal that you could die by a car or a gun

What utter fucking drivel. Do you have any reputable research to back that up? Thought not...

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 09:44 AM

In 2012, 36,166 died in MVCs according to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

"There are roughly 32,000 gun deaths per year in the United States."

http://usconservatives.about.com/od/capitalpunishment/a/Putting-Gun-Death-Statistics-In-Perspective.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:10 AM

Seems to me that psychiatric illness is the cause of many of these deaths.....what are psychiatric services like in the US?

I read today that a large percentage of perps are suffering from severe psychiatric illness.

Of course, the availability of firearms facilitates the execution of these crimes.

Why is it only "Republicans" who wish to obstruct gun legislation? Isn't that a bit like saying only "Tories" oppose homosexual "marriage"?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:20 AM

"This resulted in national motor vehicle crash death rates of 10.7 deaths per 100,000 people . . .".

Support for that may be found at

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview/2012

The Firearms Death Rate is 10.4 deaths per 100,000 people according to

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/
_________________________

It ain't quite 50/50 but it's close. Don's observation shocked me, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:26 AM

what are psychiatric services like in the US?

Insufficient, inadequate, underfunded and quite expensive to access.

Damn good thing we ain't got that there Socierlized Med-cin, ain't it?

But that's only a small component part of the "gun problem".

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:29 AM

'Why is it only "Republicans" who wish to obstruct gun legislation?'

The NRA (National Rifle Association) has about 1200 lobbyists in Washington. They spend lots of money supporting various candidates and they expect payback when their candidates win. (The 1200 figure is from something I read a few days back. Lobbyist numbers are a known because by law they have to be registered--at least in the US.) The NRA seems to be in bed with armaments companies and various corporations are literally making a killing. I think one answer is to limit lobbyists to 10 minutes face-time. Anyone caught bribing an elected official gets an automatic 20 years and any politician caught accepting a bribe gets the same. But then I dream lots.

And BTW, it is not just Republicans who obstruct legislation. There are Democrats doing it, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 10:58 AM

Greg, the psychiatric services in Canada are not much better, if at all. Various sites give the figure 9 per 100,000 for the US and if we use that as indicative of Canada (where the population is 35,000,000 and there are only about 4500 psychiatrists) the figure is about 8 per 100,000. That said, population distributions and wealth play a part here, also. Our health care system is overloaded.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:01 AM

AND the bastard Conservative government under Harper is doing its best to destroy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:23 AM

Knife crime is up at least 18% in London. I may call my wife and ask her not to go to go to London today.

And it's up all over Britain and Wales! Internet sales of knives are blamed!

From an ad on a UK knife-selling website (note that this is a Japanese made knife, 10 cm. blade, lock back, with quick opening thumb stud):

The big, wide, flat ground blade is styled like a classic Texas pocket knife and offers plenty of belly for cutting, slicing and skinning yet enough "point" for sticking as well. It's made from Japanese AUS 8A stainless steel with a beautiful satin polish and a profoundly sharp edge that lasts yet is easy to re-sharpen if necessary.

The classically shaped handle also mirrors its Texas heritage, sporting a solid stainless steel frame, handsome faux stag horn scales, and stout bolts and pins. It's outfitted it with our unrivaled Tri-Ad® lock. Proven again and again to be the strongest, most reliable lock on the market, which is an enormous benefit if your life (or fingers) are on the line.

For carrying comfort, convenience and quick access, the Lone Star Hunter comes with ambidextrous pocket clips and a thumb stud* so it can always travel with you and be ready to spring into action at will. (Emphasis mine.)

The US needs, desperately, a vast improvement in its mental health care. Among others, a lot of our politicians badly need it if for no other reason than they seem to need help listening to something other than the rustle of dollar bills.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

And anyone caught with one in their possession is guilty of a criminal offence and will get jail time. We have laws against the ownership of guns and offensive weapons.

The difference between the UK and the US is that our government deals with issues like guns and other offensive weapons, whilst yours sits with its fingers up its arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 11:48 AM

According to wiki the homicide rate per 100,000 people is 1 in the UK and a massive 4.7 in the USA. If these stats are correct you are almost 5 times as likely to be killed in the US than you are in the UK. Both developed western economies. It is clear that if these figures are anywhere near correct the US gvt has badly failed to protect its citizens. Scotland's stats are generally worse than the UK as a whole with knife crime being a particular long standing problem in parts of Scotland but it looks like heaven on earth compared with the US stats. A story last week in the press stated that 2014 saw the lowest number of murders in 40 years with 61 over the year. So that works out at 1.15 per 100,000. It just seems plain nuts that the US allows this annual slaughter of its citizens to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:16 PM

The incidence of knife killings in the US is slightly higher than in the UK. It's a bit worse in Scotland but not by much and the rate is falling.

The American gun-nut argument rehashed above, that people will simply kill each other with knives if they can't use guns, isn't supported by the numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:17 PM

Take:

street drugs
alcohol
untreated mental illness
guns
survivalist culture
drug-gang culture
permissive, inattentive parenting
Internet malice

Mix well, and what do you get? Violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:25 PM

Leeneia, you forgot:

Aggressive marketing of firearms
Ineffectual gun-control laws

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:49 PM

Thanks#.....Seemed strange to me that America's "gun problem", was simply an aberration of the Republican party.

Psychiatric services in the UK, even with "socialised medicine" are an absolute disgrace....the "poor man" of the medical profession.
I know someone who has been waiting over eight months for an assessment for severe OCD.
One psychiatrist to serve a population of a hundred thousand.

Psychiatric illness is an illness of society, often accepted rather than treated. the US problems certainly stem from a society in decline and the effect of that decline on the psychologically vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 12:49 PM

And violence does not necessarily mean killing. The OECD sponsored a comparative crime survey of the developed world about 20 years ago - collecting people's personal experience of violent crime, unprocessed by the police or the courts. By far the most violent societies, on that measure, were Australia and New Zealand. The US and Canada were a long way behind, and European countries a long way behind them. But as measured by violence with a fatal outcome, then as now the US was far ahead of all other OECD countries, with Australia and NZ near the bottom. (In fact gun ownership in NZ is not all that low; but it doesn't have a gun culture and handguns are all but nonexistent).

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 01:04 PM

Our health care system is overloaded. AND the bastard Conservative government under Harper is doing its best to destroy it.

At least you HAVE a health care system, Bruce. What we've got are for-profit businesses. AND the bastard Republicans are doing their best to destroy what little real health care we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 01:44 PM

leenia you also forgot:

Violence involving guns as entertainment on TV and movies and in video games.

Cigarettes on TV are no longer acceptable, guns are fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 01:50 PM

We probably see as many guns on TV as you do. It doesn't make much difference unless you can buy a real one.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 03:42 PM

" If your government isn't bothered -..... why should we care less here?"

I presume you didn't see Obama's comments. He was as angry as I've ever seen him.

I am weary with having **The USA** condemned by simply posting statistics. We KNOW the statistics. And almost everyone knows that the majority want changes in gun legislation. I have worn my fingers out for years explaining how the Constitution, the NRA, the electoral process, congressional Gerrymandering, and cultural demographics contribute to this stagnant, stupid, awkward situation.
It is **NOT** a case of simply being too complacent to do anything.... and there is NOTHING a president can do by issuing a decree. In Great Britain, you have a system to make certain laws apply nationally........ we have "*states rights*". We would need to amend the Constitution to make serious inroads, and that is close to impossible right now. EVEN IF we did, and passed serious laws in every state, there are still 200-300 million guns out there, many hidden away "just in case". We do not want to fight another war over whether to crack down on guns! Yes, it's frustrating, and yes, there are good, intelligent people working in all the legal channels possible to do what can be done... given the overall situation.

Give it a rest, won't you... unless you have clear, specific suggestions to make in a positive way!

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Megan L
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 04:06 PM

Now Bill you are being a silly boy you know very well that several of the people turning red in the face with anger aren't actually interested in what is happening they just like to see their own typing. They no longer see people only placards they can wave.

The last I heard there were one or two folks in your fine country so implying everyone is of the same opinion is as stupid as if you asked someone who lived in Shetland if they knew someone in London just because they both lived in Britain,something I am sure you would have the intelligence not to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 06:20 PM

To be clear.... This 'silly boy' is speaking ONLY to those on this thread and other threads who have accused the US in general of ignoring the problem. I make NO assumptions about how many Brits do so. I reply this way now & then because I see the same finger-pointing generalizations every time there's a serious shooting.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 15 - 07:46 PM

200-300 million guns out there, many hidden away "just in case".

"Just in case" of WHAT???

Here we enter into the psychotic lunatic fringe - which tail has been wagging the dog for far too long.