In defence of cultural appropriation

Subject: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 10:56 AM

Interesting article in The New Statesman

Only flicked through myself but, from what I read, I generally agree with the authors leanings. I will read it in more depth later but I thought I would post it here in advance.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:08 AM

Interesting stuff, Dave, with some relevance to how we all choose and make our music.

I wonder what the black New Orleans Mardi Gras Indian guys think about it all! Cultural appropriation on an exuberant and wondrous scale!

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:31 AM

It seems partly to be about musical appropriation - so probably does belong above the line. But a lot of it is about matters of appearance and matters of cultural significance, the misuse (usually merely through ignorance) of culturally significant symbols.

I have started to canvass the issues with my G/F (who is Yoruba).

To my mind it is odd that there are a bunch of twerps like the racist historian who object to the fact, as he put it, that the English are becoming black. What he really meant was that England was seeing some increase in behaviour similar to that of certain sections of Jamaican urban ghettoes.

Then of course there are people like me who object to the Americanisation of English culture, seeing it as a form of colonialism - while I always liked the Rolling Stones.

The current objections, I think, are in part merely as petty as the childish accusation of "copycat". But in part they are more serious. Not only does much cultural appropriation undermine the cultural identities of those systematically exploited in the past (and now and so exploited again) but it risks corrupting the meaning of aspects of historically rooted cultural behaviour. Tribal tattoos that represent important rites of passage in societies are stolen for mere decoration - and their meanings may be lost. Mind you I don't suppose that the cultural ivory anklets worn by some African women to indicate that they have successfully borne ten children will become as popular.

But on the other hand traditional-minded Afrikans have much for which to thank the African diaspora. For example a considerable amount of the learning of traditional Afrikan belief systems has returned to Africa from the diaspora - albeit in some cases modified and given a syncretic form.

To my mind more important is that African-Americans must surely be free to reflect the cultural symbols of their ancestors (even if I will never enthuse about animal sacrifice in African belief systems). With what cultural history should they associate if not that?

At the moment I am not clear whether I approve or disapprove in general - but I am clear that if one wishes to reference a set of cultural beliefs one should be careful not to distort them, and know what one is doing. This seems to me sometimes to get lost.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 11:32 AM

PS - if a mod is aware of Azizi's contact details it might be helpful to have her input.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 12:48 PM

Hack journalist with 2000 words to fill succeeds in stringing together enough platitudes. This needs to go viral, does it?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:13 PM

So me wearing a Nehru jacket or Fairisle sweater is cultural appropriation? or is the line drawn elsewhere?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:15 PM

Not quite, Jack. Yo Zushi is a folk(ish) singer songwriter who also happens to write for the New Statesman. Not everyone's cup of tea but I am a bit of a fan of fusion music and I was aware of him by name so I was interested in what he had to say. Hope you will look him up yourself and make your own mind up.

Back to the thread. I have now reread the article and accept the criticism levelled by Richard could be valid. As a musician I thought he could have said more about the music but the principle still stands for dress and other cultural items. I think he is quite right in saying this type of appropriation is not theft but it does have to be treated sensitively. It is far from the mimicking acts of black face minstrelsy but it can be seen as disrespectful of other cultures. Conversely, had it not been, for instance, Paul Simon, who would know Ladysmith?

Tough call. Interesting topic.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:45 PM

I think the writer of the New Statesman of the piece is not the originator of the discussion, whose name I cannot recall but who is I think Nigerian-British although I do not know his place of residence. The issue is quite a sensitive one for many Afrikans and many African-Americans. I don't know about issues here for Hispanics.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:47 PM

PS - surely everyone knows about the relief of Ladysmith? And Mafeking?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 01:58 PM

Not sure what you mean, Richard. The piece is ascribed to You Zushi. As in, right at the top, it says "By Yo Zushi". Am I missing something?

And sorry, but I can't tell if you are joking about Ladysmith or not but for the benefit of those who may not have got my shorthand I did mean Ladysmith Black Mambazo who featured on Paul Simon's 'Graceland' album. Maybe they would have become world famous without that but we will never know!

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:01 PM

Yo Zushi (Damn spilling chucker. I spotted Sushi but missed you!)

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:37 PM

Cultural appropriation...cultural appreciation... a fine line runs between.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 02:53 PM

Azizi is not the only person here who has informed thoughts on this subject, and it is not fair to treat her as "the Black voice." People are responsible for learning their own stuff about this and any other aspect of Systemic Racism.

Cultural approriation that is wrong is when a member of a privileged group, which benefits from society's denying an oppressed group's access to commercial opportunities, performs/displays an item from that oppressed group's culture without giving credit (ideally, royalties) to the peeson or people who created it.

An example of this is white women doing their hair in cornrows, which is a Black beauty choice with roots in African tribal identifiers. The white woman who does this is usually clueless about the actual lives of Black folks she lives nearby, or about how the system unfairly makes daily life nearly impossible and often fatal.

Typically, when someone calls out an inappropriate reference to another's culture, the result is angry defensiveness; the choice being shown there is to continue to remain unaware of the damage being done.

So a way to look at what is 'appropriate' is, does the person respond to an interruption of their behavior with, "Oh. I didn't know that. I'm sorry. Thank you for telling me."


So how does this article look, from that view?

~S~

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 04:10 PM

I think it covers that base, Susan. What do you think?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 04:56 PM

The article is a defence of cultural appropriation so plainly Yo Zushi is not the originator of the furore.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 04:59 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:01 PM

http://racerelations.about.com/od/diversitymatters/fl/What-Is-Cultural-Appropriation-and-Why-Is-It-Wrong.htm

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:01 PM

Another way to look at this is 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'. Just another view.

The opposite side of the coin is those people who insist on sharing their culture, in fact often stating their culture is superior to others. Religion is often the culprit here.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:03 PM

Ah - Got it. Thanks, Richard.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 15 - 05:04 PM

The current row appears to have been kicked off by Zipporah Gene, according to the article here - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/is-it-cultural-appropriation-when-africans-wear-jordans_56099b3be4b0768126fea24d

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:27 AM

"Azizi is not the only person here who has informed thoughts on this subject, and it is not fair to treat her as "the Black voice." People are responsible for learning their own stuff about this and any other aspect of Systemic Racism"

Maybe not the only Black Voice. But she presents in a way that really sheds a light that someone like me, brought up in a very white environment (UK before the surge in immigration) can understand. She says what certain words feel like to her, not the same as they might be intended by the speaker.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:49 AM

The link given by Richard Bridge makes more sense to me than all the others given above. The examples are commercial rather than innocent adoption of something because it is admired.

Most off the other links, especially the one in the OP, seem more like the chattering classes jumping on a bandwaggon.

In the UK it is fairly common for traditional performers visiting from overseas to run workshops teaching folks who are interested something about their musical styles. What's the harm in that ? Are we bad people to go along ?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 06:19 AM

Not sure what you mean, Guest? How can a performer from a different ethnic background from the one he currently resides in be more like 'the chattering classes'. Surely Yo Zushi has a very real voice to add to this discussion. Or am I missing something (else!)

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:15 AM

Yo Zushi, from what I can see on the web, is simply part of the southern English indie/nu-folk/alt-country scene. The fact that he has Japanese parents isn't in any way relevant to his cultural milieu or his contributions to it.

In any case, that article was vapid. The one Richard linked to was more substantial, if not exactly news.

I don't see much difference between Black Americans adopting the symbolism of African culture without understanding it and North Americans with Scottish surnames (or childhood emigres with names like "Blair") presuming to speak for Scotland and telling us how our country ought to run itself. Zipporah Gene had a good point.

However: the illustrations in her articles seem a bit misleading. Those bright patterned African dress fabrics are not all of African origin - many of them were produced by the British textile industry for export, and if they were designed with African preferences in mind, the design process must have been collaborative between African and British artists. So it doesn't seem right that Africans not involved in their creation get sole intellectual rights to them and get to say how they're used. (Ditto most Scottish tartans - created by the Sobieskis for the pan-British wool textile industry. Fortunately the Scottish clan-heritage biz's claim to be the arbiters of rightness in all things tartan is now a barely remembered thing of the past).

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:25 AM

The whole point boils down to the nuances around these terms:

Cultural Diffusion
Cultural Appreciation
Cultural Appropriation

Privilege is where it gets sticky. Cultural appropriation is always wrong. If a situation is CALLED that but is actually one of the former terms, then no worries.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:30 AM

I think this whole cultural appropriation thing may be a red herring. The world really is a small place and cultures are constantly meeting and adapting, melding and re-emerging. I cannot imagine anything these days that belongs exclusively to one ethnic or cultural group, I may be way off the mark on this. However, I do believe that we are moving closer and closer to a multicultural world and that we are all the better for it. Or, have I missed something ?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 09:54 AM

Not much anyone can do about it anyway. It's always happened, it always will happen. Typically most of the culturally specific stuff involved turns out to have come from some other culture anyway, a few generations back. Masai herders wearing Scottish tartans. Irish songbooks full of songs assumed to be Irish, imported from England, and likely enough only there because they'd come from Ireland... Curry.

If we just had the stuff originating in our culture we'd have very little - and in fact the culture itself wouldn't exist.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST,#
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:31 AM

Next thing ya know someone will copyright humming.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 03:37 PM

So, all in all, the opinion is that it is neither a good piece nor a good topic. Ah well, can't get everything right :-) I'll try again later!

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:22 PM

Nothing wrong with the topic. It's just not wise to generalise. Each piece of appropriation/appreciation/imitation, call it what you will, needs looking at carefully before labelling it, and condemning/praising it. And each case will usually have positives and negatives.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 04:35 PM

Hilo, what you are describing is cultural diffusion. Read my first post above to see where problems occur.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST,Hi lo
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 07:59 PM

I read your first post. I disagree, respectfully, I don't see why you are splitting hairs.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:37 PM

I think it is a very worthwhile topic.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 15 - 10:37 PM

I found the distinction between appropriation and diffusion made by WysiwyG a bit hard to grasp. Using a song or a style of performing without giving any credit or explanation, I understand is something to criticise. But copying hair styles, even when they may have symbolic meanings originally, strikes me as very much cultural diffusion.

And you can't stop it, even when it's insensitive. Catholics Rosary Beads, Muslim prayer mats, Jewish prayer shawls, Hindu forehead marking, all religious items which turn up being used by people who have no idea of what they might mean. Can't be stopped, short of bringing in the likes of the Taliban.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:08 AM

Cultural Diffusion is a term used in history and anthropology that is easily Googled.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 07:22 AM

Cultural Diffusion example (quotig a wiki artricle): Cultural diffusion was an important role for different Native American tribes. For example, the practice of agriculture is widely believed to have diffused from somewhere in the Middle East to all of Eurasia, less than 10,000 years ago, having been adopted by many pre-existing cultures. Other established examples of diffusion include the spread of the war chariot and iron smelting in ancient times, and the use of cars and Western business suits in the 20th century.

Cultural Appropriation, for an example by extension from the above, would be living as a privileged white person in an area historically genocided of Native civilization, and then dressing for Halloween as a cartoon Native. The white person would see no issue. A descendant of the surviving remnant of the genocided civilazation would see it differently! Their viewpoint and feelings would be just as valid and worthy of respect. The pattern of Cultural Appropriation is choosing not to respect the feelings of those descendants-- defending rather than respecting.

It's not about being PC. It's about understanding from the heart, and living together reasonably in a complicated world.

It's not splitting hairs, either; it's looking beyond the surface at the layers involved in what goes on every day, and unpacking the semantics when they get mixed up.

~S~

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 01:47 PM

So can I play a Native American flute if I like the sound of it ? Can I play a native American tune ? How do I find out ?

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:06 PM

Native American flutes, in their present-day form, are an invention of the 1960s. The tuning was standardized on a Western-derived pentatonic scale never used before by any Native American people. So the instrument was never intended to be any one tribe's property. You are unlikely to encounter one of the pre-standardization types unless you're a museum curator.

Different peoples had different ideas about the ownership of tunes and songs. Some considered them to belong to specific tribes, others to specific individuals. There was one tribe from Colombia who expected every man to invent one tune of his own; he would never play any other one, and nobody else would ever play his.

In other parts of the world (I know about this in a Melanesian context) you also got ownership of melodies or dances by specific families/lineages; I'd be surprised if some Native American people didn't adopt that ethic.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST,#
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 02:24 PM

Neat site about flutes.

http://www.flutopedia.com/flute_timeline.htm

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:10 PM

It's common enough in folk singing clubs and such for a particular song to be informally "owned" by a member. It'd be unheard of for anyone knowingly to sing it, when a vsitor unknowingly sings it people are a bit embarassed. When the singer has moved away or died they are likely to get mentioned when it's sung, a kind of memorial.

Humans have a way if reinventing traditional patterns of behaviour like that.
................
"It's not about being PC. It's about understanding from the heart, and living together reasonably in a complicated world. " That's the ethic that underlies the whole concept that often get's distorted and labelled PC, typically as a way of subverting and mocking it.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:10 PM

It's common enough in folk singing clubs and such for a particular song to be informally "owned" by a member. It'd be unheard of for anyone knowingly to sing it, when a vsitor unknowingly sings it people are a bit embarassed. When the singer has moved away or died they are likely to get mentioned when it's sung, a kind of memorial.

Humans have a way if reinventing traditional patterns of behaviour like that.
................
"It's not about being PC. It's about understanding from the heart, and living together reasonably in a complicated world. " That's the ethic that underlies the whole concept that often get's distorted and labelled PC, typically as a way of subverting and mocking it.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Oct 15 - 09:59 PM

While I accept that the courtesy that McGrath mentions above used to be observed, it seems to me that it is not commonly seen in folk clubs these days.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 02:14 AM

How about tweed 'flat caps' worn indoors on stage by musicians playing Irish tunes?


Note: I wear a tweed flat cap for everyday outdoor use, as do many of my age where I live. It gets misintertpreted at Folk Festivals so is replaced by fleece beany. I shouldn't have to do that.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: theleveller
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 04:19 AM

An interesting debate. It seems to me that cultural appropriation is almost always cultural approbation rather than the reverse. To insist that fashion, music, or whatever should remain exclusive to the original people, group or race that created it is cultural fascism – or worse: cultural suicide. Suppose the same strictures were extended to language, literature, food, architecture, flora and fauna....even, gods forbid, religion....well, of course, it couldn't happen because almost every culture in the world is inextricably intertwined with others on a myriad of levels. Personally, I think life would be a sad place without being able to eat a Lamb Passanda, read Zorba the Greek, look at the beauty of an ancient Spanish Chestnut tree or admire the Duomo while sipping a glass of Chianti, let alone not being able to listen to The Stones whilst wearing a Panama hat.

[Written whilst listening to Edward ll.]

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:48 AM

Richard don't know about elsewhere but the type of thing McGrath describes definitely is still common here in the Borders. Here in Kelso we all tend to have several signature songs as such which are done fairly regularly and which other members tend to not touch - certainly if the person is present! If a visitor strikes up one of the said songs then it is of course gladly accepted but at the same time there are invariably a few jokes thrown in by other members.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 07:49 AM

I'm struck again by the obvious difference in perspective between US and UK. On this topic, it's very, very tense in the US.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 15 - 08:25 AM

"On this topic it's very tense in the US." I get the impression that is true about an awful lot of things.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:18 PM

A very simple historical illustration of cultural appropriation (theft really) can be seen if you Google up Esther Jones + Betty Boop. Study it yourselves and then get back to me.

~Susan

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:32 PM

I am not at all sure that that stands up as an argument, Susan. While Baby Esther was African-American, and performed frequently at the Cotton Club, I don't see how it could be argued that her singing style was a part of African (or African-American) culture. Rather, it was a personal affectation, not rooted in her ethnicity. Cultural appropriation, it seems to me, is the taking of things that are distinctive of, and/or culturally significant within, another cultural group.

Subject: RE: In defence of cultural appropriation
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Oct 15 - 08:34 PM

PS. A better example would be the evolution of the well known song recorded by Karl Denver and also the Tokens, known as "Wim-o-weh" and/or "The Lion Sleeps Tonight".