Trafalgar Day

Subject: Trafalgar Day
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 02:36 AM

... comes round again.

Let us all sing

𝄞 ♫BOLD NELSON'S PRAISE♩♩

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 02:55 AM

Michael, At the moment I'm reading the Jenny Uglow book In These Times which is a history of the period of the Napoleonic wars from 1793 to 1815. In it she suggests that Nelson wasn't seen as quite the hero he was to the population in certain sphere's of the Admiralty.
I recommend the book it has a very interesting look at the period from the perspective of people living and working in England.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 04:14 AM

Nelsons fairly lowly origins made him something of an outsider amongst the upper crust other officers with whom he had to work,
the bulk of these got their positions by reason of who they knew rather than their skills as officers.
His individual take on tactics which gave him an advantage particularly at Trafalgar, was seen by his bosses at the Admiralty as going against established naval practice, and not quite playing by the rules all of which caused a certain amount of friction with their lordships at the top !!

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 06:58 AM

Oh indeed. He was far from perfect. Loathed to this day in Naples for his brutal suppression of the rebellion there while he was dubiously ultra vires self-appointed governor, execution of its leader despite promise of amnesty, &c -- see Barry Unsworth's excellent historical novel about the matter, Losing Nelson, 1999.

Nevertheless:-

♬
Here's a health unto the Victory,
That ship of noted fame.
Likewise the noble Admiral,
Bold Nelson was his name.
At the Battle of Trafalgar
'Twas the Victory led the way...

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

Ah, but Raggy, Jenny Uglow is now retired so is she a real historian ;-)

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 07:42 AM

Oh Bugger !!

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 07:44 AM

Probably why she was nominated for the duff Cooper prize.


Sorry, sorry it was the Duff Cooper Prize!

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 07:54 AM

As one of the jealous admirals in Robert Graves' poem sez

"He made the whole fleet love him
Damn his eyes!"

So, once again

BOLD NELSON'S PRAISE I MEAN TO SING

Strange but interesting thing I always think: that Column in that square with Bayly's statue atop didn't go up till well over 30 years after the battle & the admiral's death. What took them so long? & then why do it at that time of day? Always seems v curious to me.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 07:56 AM

From Jenny Uglows book.

Public idol though he was, Nelson had critics in the navy. In 1804 the NAVAL CHRONICLE wrote "should the mad project of invasion ever be attempted, the public would feel additional security from having the Hero of the Nile off our own coast. But we greatly lament that ill-judged and overweening popularity which tends to make a demigod of Lord Nelson at the expense of all others officers in the service, many of whom possess equal merit and equal abilities and equal gallantry with the noble Admiral"

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 08:20 AM

There's always one who captures the public imagination with his well-timed victories, isn't there? Those who remember WWii will recall that Field Marshal Montgomery was the hero of the hour, tho he too was far from adulated by his fellow commanders, or universally respected by the troops under his command; and he has had his detractors ever since.

Still & all - altogether now please

"♫ Bold ......

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 08:51 AM

The construction of Nelson's Column in 1840-43 followed the opening of the new building to house the National Gallery.

The present building was designed by William Wilkins and in 1832 construction began on the site of the King's Mews in Charing Cross, in an area that had been transformed over the 1820s into Trafalgar Square. The location was a significant one, between the wealthy West End and poorer areas to the east. The building was completed in 1838.

In February 1838 a group of 121 peers, MPs and other gentry formed a committee to raise a monument to Lord Nelson, funded by public subscription, and the Government agreed to provide a site in Trafalgar Square, in front of the newly-completed National Gallery.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM

Nelson's Column? PAH! It's Nelson's WILLY!

:D

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 09:04 AM

A statue of Horatio Nelson by Richard Westmacott, RA (1775–1856) stands in the Bull Ring, Birmingham, England. This bronze statue was the first publicly funded statue in Birmingham, and the first statue of Horatio Nelson in Britain.

It was made in 1809 by public subscription of £2,500 by the people of Birmingham following Nelson's visit to the town on 31 August 1802, the year before he sailed against the fleets of Napoleon. The statue was unveiled on 25 October 1809, that being the day decreed as the official golden jubilee of George III.

Nelson monuments

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 15 - 11:17 AM

Dublin got there just a little ahead of Brum, their pillar being started Feb 1808 and completed Aug 1809. They were well ahead at knocking it down of course! (08 March 1966)

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 06:08 AM

I heard on the news yesterday that Nelson's ship, 'The Victory', or more correctly named: HMS Victory is the oldest battleship in the world still in commission, hence the: 'HMS'.
         Anyone vouch for the veracity of this statement?
                                                                                  Nigel.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 06:18 AM

Oldest commissioned naval vessel but, as it is in dry dock, not the oldest afloat.

Good list on Wikipedia if you want to check it out. And if you believe it ;-)

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 06:20 AM

From Wikipedia Nigel

"Current status[edit]

Listed as part of the National Historic Fleet, HMS Victory has been the flagship of the First Sea Lord since October 2012. Prior to this, she was the flagship of the Second Sea Lord.[75][76] She is the oldest commissioned warship in the world[Note 1] and attracts around 350,000 visitors per year in her role as a museum ship.[77] The current and 100th commanding officer is Lieutenant Commander Rod Strathern Royal Navy, who assumed command in September 2011.[78]

HMS Victory, officially, has a surprisingly large crew complement, though visitors are unlikely to see any naval personnel. It is a legacy of naval legislation that all naval ratings and officers must be assigned to a ship[79] (which may include a shore establishment – still regarded as Her Majesty's Ships by the navy). Any navy person allocated to work in a non-HMS location (such as the Ministry of Defence in London) is recorded as being a member of the crew of HMS Victory"

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 06:45 AM

On our visit to HMS Victory, we were escorted around by a serviceman. We stopped at each important site, where he gave a short talk. He would then ask, Are there any questions? One lady in our group always had a question, usually an elementary one, which he patiently answered.

We continued around the ship, and eventually reached the last site. The lady had one last question. Gee, she said, The conditions must have been terrible. Did any of the crew ever commit suicide? Back shot the answer, No, ma'am, but several of the guides have.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 07:41 AM

Sarcastic Guide

Henry, if you want sarcasm have a listen to this Beefeater at the Tower of London. There are a further three videos.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 10:31 AM

It was about 30 years ago that I had the tour. It was conducted by a leading seaman electronic warfare branch who whisked us round at a fair rate of knots while uttering the words that he had been taught, words that in some cases were just downright wrong. Things like the square wooden plates used gave rise to the expression a good square meal, and the serving up of rum (which was more often small beer in home waters).

At any event I could indulge in the old joke at the raised brass plaque that marks where Nelson fell. I'm not surprised, I nearly tripped over it myself.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 11:35 AM

Thank you very much for the extra research on my behalf...very kind of you all. I do enjoy reading/seeing the 'bigger picture'.
                                                    Nigel.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 22 Oct 15 - 07:46 PM

Is HMS Trincomalee at Hartlepool still in commission?

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 04:25 AM

The only naval battle the French have won since then was when they sank the "Rainbow Warrior"

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 05:27 AM

Yay -- those French! Old de Gaulle, loathsome conceited streak of piss, was always claiming to be doing us a favour in being our ally after the Bosch had kicked him out of France, and wittering on about "la gloire de la France"; which glory consists solely of losing every war they had ever fought and then letting the Germans in thru treachery+cowardice [Petain, Laval...]. & they still gang up with the Germans in EU against us, as the only thing those two have got in common is that they hate & resent us for having got the better of them right thru history from C12 onward.

BOLD NELSON'S PRAISE; & Wellington's; & the Black Prince; and Henry V; and Edward III; & John of Gaunt....... ad ∞∞∞

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 07:05 AM

and yet the former Angevin empire is French and not English!

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 07:27 AM

Angevin Empire? surely a 19th century creation.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 09:19 AM

Henry II

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 09:34 AM

Ah no Manitas, the term was invented by Kate Norgate in the late 19th century.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 10:00 AM

Just as the term World War I was invented after the event. It doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Plantagenets end up as a dynasty based in England and lost most of their possessions in France so the French were not that bad at war.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 12:16 PM

But they cheated, by being foreign.

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 03:24 AM

So which do you wish to discuss Manitas, the "Angevin Empire" or the Plantagenet dynasty or should we go back to the title of the thread and discuss Trafalgar

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 24 Oct 15 - 02:35 PM

Neither really, I was just pointing out that the French are better warriors than some people in this thread have given them credit for but someone started nitpicking about the terms being used. In the words of the song "Boney was a warrior".

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 15 - 01:07 AM

"Les sanglots longs / des violons / de l'automne"

Subject: RE: Trafalgar Day
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:34 PM

The Norfolk Naval Pillar (Nelson's Monument) is a memorial to Admiral Horatio Nelson on The Denes in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, England.

Designed by architect William Wilkins, it was raised in the period 1817-1819 from money raised by a committee of local magnates. The first custodian of the monument was former Able Seaman James Sharman, a member of the crew of the Victory from Norfolk and one of those who carried Nelson below decks after he was shot.

Harry Cox sings Nelson's Monument

The merchants of Yarmouth when they heard so
Said, "Come, brother sailor, to church let us go;
And there we will build a most beautiful pile
In remembrance of Nelson the hero of the Nile."

"Your plans", said Britannia, "are excellent and good,
A monument for Lord Nelson and a sword for Collingwood.
Let it be of good marble to 'petuate his name;
Letters of gold wrote, 'He died for England's fame.' "

From the invaluable site Mainly Norfolk