BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.

Subject: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:53 AM

WHY?
Has Mr Obama gone back on his promise?

Commentators here think it is "gesture politics", but is that not an extremely dangerous game? Or is HtH putting on the pressure in her bid for the Presidency?

In any case, why no comment so far?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

It's a proxy struggle, Ake. US and Russia posturing. There have been "advisors" on the ground in that region for a long time. This simply formalizes it. To general disappointment here.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 10:51 AM

Because they are just boots!

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:01 AM

You do realize that 'boots on the ground' is a trick phrase to avoid talking about real men and women being in danger, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:25 AM

Yes I realise that leeneia.

In just cant see the sense of the policy, why don't they accept Russia's offer of shared intelligence and firepower?
Surely they realise that ISIS is a grave danger to us all and must be controlled. Putting US soldiers between President Assad's troops and ISIS a very dangerous tactic and very stupid if it is being done for domestic political consumption.

This is an issue where we can work together in a common cause and make the world a safer place into the bargain.
It could lead to further co-operation in military AND commercial issues.......what exactly is Mr Obama trying to achieve?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 11:27 AM

I am also sure that putting troops into a sovereign country without the permission of the recognised government of that country is illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:07 PM

"Putting US soldiers between President Assad's troops and ISIS a very dangerous tactic"
And allowing to win this war and return to power is putting at risk many thousands of Syrian lives - an inevitable return to the situation described so vividly in the Amnesty report on Human Rights abuses in Syria.
Had the United Nations intervened or had the West overridden the Russio/Chinese vetor, as they would have if there had been oil involved, Isis would have been no more than a bunch of ranting cranks.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:26 PM

Had the west overridden the veto, Syria would now be just like Libya.

We needed boots on the ground long ago, but the boots were not forthcoming and we would not support Assad's troops.In fact we wanted to wipe out Assad's troops....how stupid is that?
Russia did what was required by giving meaningful air cover and now Assad is pushing the terrorists back....he should keep pushing till these maniacs are wiped out.

Inserting US troops between Assad and the terrorists is dangerous and stupid. Why are the American public not protesting this madness?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:27 PM

War has few laws left that anyone pays attention to. Ain't good, but it's the way it has become. War is a racket. When you have an hour to spare the book by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC is worth a read. It's online and easy to find with Mr Google. He also spoke about interventionism and here is an oft-quoted piece from him.

Smedley Butler on Interventionism.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:28 PM

Eighty years and we ain't learned squat.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 12:37 PM

That link just about nails it #.

It is now further complicated by a pseudo religious perspective.

Perhaps we are reaping what we have sowed, but a virulent epidemic needs to be wiped out......self preservation is important, these people do not recognise mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:43 PM

At least the Russians were invited by the legitimate government. Any American boots on the ground show a total contempt for international law.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 01:52 PM

It wouldn't actually be that bad if we followed the model that General Butler so concisely explained--the thing is, we don't.

Yes, we marched in, took over, and set up stable, if not oppressive, puppet governments that we could do business with, the Shah in Iran, Quadaffi (or however you want to spell it)in Libya,Saddam in Iraq, the Taliban(or don't you remember that we set them up?) etc. --so far so good--

The thing is, we then we decided, for one reason or another, that we didn't like them(usually, it was because if you set up a despotic government that is focussed on creating wealth, sooner or later, the liberalizing effects of wealth trickle down, and the body politic starts to think they ought to be self-determining, rather than chattels to Western interests) and, with great fanfare, fussed about torture and rampant violation of civil rights(which, to be completely honest, we taught them how to do) so we subsidize random, dubious sorts to overthrow the Shah, start the Arab Spring, invade Iraq--and expect that some sort of liberal, congenial, economically cooperative democracy will just spring from the ground. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 02:19 PM

"Had the west overridden the veto, Syria would now be just like Libya."
Not necessarily - it could just as easily have been like Tunisia
Whatever way it was - the dead of Homs the many thousands of others massacred by or now ally would have been saved, the refugees wouldn't have existed and Isis would not have got a foothold and become the world threat it now is.
As I said - the boots would be very much forthcoming had there been oil involved - the U has never thought twice about sending in The Marines -and the napalm and the Agent Orange and the B52s - whenever its economic or political interests ate threatened or offended and its poodle, Britain, would have been there like a shot - HMV and all that.
Britain could and should have taken diplomatic steps to stop the massacres - we did nothing and Assad's assets remain untouched in London.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 02:27 PM

As so often......"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread". US troops on the ground, in whatever capacity, however few, just the sort of recruitment boost IS will milk for all it's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:08 PM

The sense I've got throughout is that all the news we got For years was soun to present an oversimplofied narrative of a horribly complex situation, in which the opposition were presnted as shining democrats, and Assad's as the most evil of dictatorships, with no popular support.

In fact, as has now become clear, much of the opposition were and are ruthless sectarian fanatics, and Assad had majority support. Which was a mixture that ensured a genocidal war.

The only realistic option is to make some kind of deal with the Assad regime, as appears to be available in principle, under which there is a united front against Isis and Al Qaeda, and an agreement that the decision about the nature of the Syrian givernment should be made by a genuine popular vote, including refugees, and not imposed by any outside powers.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 05:25 PM

Excellent resume Mr McGrath.   Like most other issues debated here it has become an issue of ideology.

Common sense has been removed from the equation.

In the minds of most Western "liberals" it was all about the "Arab Spring".....perhaps not in the minds of Western governments, who have little truck with such luxuries as real equality or real democracy, but in the minds of "useful idiots" who believe that our type of "freedom" can be transplanted into other cultures.

It took us many decades to debauch and weaken our society into the dirty joke it has become.....what makes "liberals" think that they can achieve it overnight?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 07:05 PM

The US "boots" are targeting ISIS, not Assad or the rebels. This can't be a bad thing unless you support what they (ISIS) are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 08:13 PM

If they genuinely are merely targetting Isis, it ought in principle be possible to get the Syrian government to approve such involvement, and to get the Russians to lean on them to do so if need be. This would mean it was actually legal.

In the absence of consent by the Syrian government, or approval by the UN Security Council, this move is as illegal as the invasion of Iraq was.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 15 - 10:24 PM

Just think what things would have been like if France and Britain had, after WWI and WWII, treated the Arabs as they should have been. Dividing the Middle East among various ethnic and religious groups, instead of tossing every group into supergroups and calling them independent countries, could have prevented at least some of the violence and problems we see today.

And I do not forget that US CIA, at the request of MI6, overthrew the properly elected government of Mohammad Mosaddegh in Iran, which brought the Palevis to power, which...well, you know (or should).

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:27 AM

GUEST: "The US "boots" are targeting ISIS, not Assad or the rebels..."

..according to who??
ISIS is targeting Assad, and the Russians, and we're supporting WHO???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:50 AM

So Raparee, do you think that the overthrow of the Shah made Iran a better place?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:21 AM

It must be only the US that recognises good and bad terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:48 AM

"In fact, as has now become clear, much of the opposition were and are ruthless sectarian fanatics, and Assad had majority support"
Simplistic in the extreme i'm afraid Mac.
The Assad family have been imprisoning, torturing and 'disappearing' opposition to its regime for decades - the West have been fully aware of this, certainly since the Amnesty report was published several years prior to the Arab Spring protests - that report contained descriptions of systematic arrests, torture of those arrested and then killing of anybody opposing the Syrian Government - it was this that largely led to the protests, which were brutally put down, Homs being the most memorable.
The protests were peaceful and were put down by extreme force, so much so that the U.N. made a move to intervene - vetoed by China and Russia.
The West refused to intervene, the slaughter continued and developed into civil war.
Inaction on the part of the West led to international disaffection by Muslims, who volunteered to support the opposition - Isis became part of this and came to prominence from the indifference of the West to the plight of the Syria people at the hands of Assad.
It would be appalling if Assad were to come out of this with clean hands and allowed to return to his old ways - where that to happen, the slaughter of his opponents would be unimaginable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:52 AM

Untrue Guest, the UK and France also recognise "good" terrorists.

The "good" terrorists are those who assist them to achieve their goals.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 04:57 AM

Stim,

It was the overthrow of Mosaddegh that Raparee questioned, not whether Iran was better under the Shah or Khomeni. This was at the behest of Britain and the USA, we (the British) were at least as guilty as the USA. And the reason was, as ever, oil interests. I think there is no question that Iran would be a better place had this democratic government been allowed to continue. As for whether the Shah was better or worse than Khomeni, well thats a difficult question.

At some stage in all this, the UK and US decided that in the centuries old, poorly understood, and probably irresolvable conflict between Sunni and Shia Islam, the west would support the Sunnis. Hence the support for Saddam's Iraq in the war against Iran, hence the continuing military support for the feudal monarchy of Saudi Arabia. That decision now seems to be over simplistic at best.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 05:36 AM

Assad,s regime has evintly been responsible for brutally repressing opposition. But the evidence is that it had majority support. Those opposing it included not merely democrats, but also a significant element of sectarian fanatics, and these have been the most effective in the conflict. That includes those who emerged as Isis and also those affiliated to al Quaeda.

It's a horrible messy civil war, and no one has clean hands.

The decision whether Assad should go is one that has ti lie with the people of Syria, not imposed by outsiders, who haven't got clean hands either.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 06:53 AM

"But the evidence is that it had majority support."
So what - atrocitis are atrocities
I'm sure those in former Yugoslavia who committed the atrocities they did had majority support - didn't stop them being tried for war crimes.
Did't the Nazis have majority support from the German people for a time?
No side in any war comes out with "clean hands"
It would be reasonable if it is decided to prosecute any side for war crimes carried out during the fighting, but Assad's crimes go far beyond those.
The Civil War was a direct result of Assad's brutal suppression of legitimate peaceful protests, and prior to that, at least a decade of imprisonment, torture and mass murder committed by his opponents in peacetime
It is both facile and unfair to compare Assad and his opponents.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 09:58 AM

I'm all for putting Assad on trial, but that's a separate matter. The military campaign against Serbia that brought a halt to the war with Bosnia wasn't carried on until Milosevic was removed from office or surrendered for trial. The Serbs themselves took care of removing him from power, well after the end of fighting. Tony Blair still hasn't been put on trial. Nor has Netanyahu, and loads more. It's an imperfect worrld.

Insisting that Assad has to step down before there can be any attempt to make peace is just a way of making sure the war continues.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:35 AM

Nor has Netanyahu....

Defending against terrorist attacks is not a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:44 AM

If it isn't agreed that Assad will be removed from office and stand trial for his crimes, the situation will revert back to where it was, he will take revenge on those who opposed him and all those who died will have done so in vain - Russia will make sure of that.
This is guaranteed to strengthen the support for Isis - or any such group that follows - them - ongoing terrorism fuelled by disaffection.
The Syrian people are not in the position that the Serbs were - opposition has been virtually removed from Syria by four and a half years of armed conflict and the State terrorism that preceded it.
You can bet you life that, once Isis has ceased to become a threat to the West and its interests, the situation of the Syrian people will be about as relevant to The West as it was prior to the War - total abandonment of them to their fate at the hands of Assad.
Do you honestly believe that Assad will allow the 4 million refugees to return to Syria should he remain in power?
Not to put him on trial will be politically and economically convenient for the West, except, of course, we will still have the refugee crisis to cope with - would you go back to what they have left?
Putting him on trial is certainly not a separate matter; it's very much a part of reaching a long-term solution - for the benefit of the Syrians and of the world as a whole.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:48 AM

"Defending against terrorist attacks is not a crime."
Ethnically cleansing a people who have occupied a country for millenia in order to create a monotheistic State is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:57 AM

Ethnically cleansing a people who have occupied a country for millenia in order to create a monotheistic State is.

That is not happening in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:13 AM

It is, however, the avowed policy of the proposed future Muslim state in the disputed territories of Judea and Samaria.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:29 AM

"That is not happening in Israel."
Yes it most certainly is - even the Israeli moderates are referring to what is happening as "an Apartheid State".
Nuff said - not nausing up a thread with this shit - it's all on record.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:44 AM

it's all on record.

Lol....whose record, yours and your ilk's?

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 11:47 AM

It might be better to focus on Syria for now.

Removing Assad from power especially in advance of any negotiations (and in fact it's a regime, not just one man) just isn't an option, without the overthrow of the government by the opposition - in which the only really effective bunch are really Isis and al Qaeda, or by outsiders. (Apart from the Kurds) Which really isn't on. (Even if it was the precidents of Iraq and Libya aren't exactly promising.)

It's not going to happen, and insisting on it merely guarantees the war cobtinues, or that Assad, with Russian support, defeats the whole bunch of opposition, including Isis.

It would be possible to negotiate round aims such as supervised elections, including the exiles- who of course the regime is not in a position to control. In fact that's been offered and rejected so far. The thing is, the Russians exert a lot of influence, and peace is very much in their interests, and Assad is probably dispensible to them. There are people in the opposition who likely would come on board for a settlement.

An outright victory for the opposition, even if possible, would be likely to end in something akin to Libya, with sectarian extremists running the show in so far as anyone ran it.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:07 PM

It might be better to focus on Syria for now.

So why did you bring Netanyahu into the convo? Oh wait, your posting history answers that.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 12:45 PM

Why did I bring Tony Blair in for that matter? To make my point their are plenty of people walking free who should be put on trial for alleged war crimes. Netanyahu is another. Of course, innocent until proved guilty applies in all cases. Perhaps he might get found not guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:00 PM

"Removing Assad from power especially in advance of any negotiations"
Need to do what they've done in the pat in such circumstances - put the situation into the hands of the U.N. - difficult with Russia and China's veto, but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
"So why did you bring Netanyahu into the convo?"
Probasbly for the same reason as you brought in Judea and Samaria (not part of Syria to my recollection)
Israel is very much a part of the problems of the Middle East and a terrorist State with nuclear weapons and a religious agenda makes it a dangerous one - the other sie of the coin to Isis (except Isis Doesn't have a bomb yet - early days!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:21 PM

put the situation into the hands of the U.N. - difficult with Russia and China's veto, but the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

For "difficult" read "impossible". After what happened with the UN go ahead in Libya, in which a very carefully limited approval got hijacked, and turned into a full-blooded air campaign to force regime change, Russia is not going to be tricked in that way again. The alternative may not bear thinking about, but it's going to have to be a case of grin and bear to think about it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:33 PM

Israel is very much a part of the problems of the Middle East and a terrorist State with nuclear weapons and a religious agenda makes it a dangerous one

Israel's very existence is a problem to it's antisemitic Muslim neighbours and, it seems, to some of the posters here.

To call it a terrorist state with a religious agenda is simply another one your typical antisemitic slurs. If you want to see terrorist states with religious agendas just look around Israel's neighbourhood .

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:35 PM

Canada has had a similar training mission underway since over a year ago. We have about 70 special warfare troops (and they likely require 500 other troops to support them) training Peshmerga fighters. The first person to do an accurate chart of who's fighting and who's supporting whom will win a three-day all expenses paid vacation to the Puzzle Palace or in lieu of the vacation the winner may elect to recieve $79.95 in cash.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 01:50 PM

"recieve $79.95 in cash."

Or if you'd rather, receive.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 02:01 PM

"For "difficult" read "impossible".£
In which case, we'd better get used to the fact that millions of Syrian refugees with by hammering on the doors of Western Countries for at least the rest of my lifetime.
Letting Assad stay in power is not even a partial solution
"To call it a terrorist state with a religious agenda is simply another one your typical antisemitic slurs"
More or less how David Beg Gurion described the State of Israel - built on stolen land, but chosen by God to do what they did - can't get a more authoritative opinion than that - which is why the Israelis have put his papers out-of-bounds.
It is Antisemitic to equate Israeli behaviour with the Jewish people as a whole - but then again, you know that.
Don't get tired of trolling - Bearded Bruce - you don't even have the nouse to hide your identity?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 02:43 PM

I asked before, "and we're supporting WHO???"...and the subject got quickly changed...the fact is, the battle lines have been drawn, but who is on what side for whom, because the way this is being reported vs. what is PERCEIVED as a 'policy', makes no sense whatsoever...UNLESS there is a different, well hidden agenda. We're sending almost 50 spec ops forces, to allegedly, train a splinter group, to overthrow Syria, who is being backed by the Russians, and allegedly at odds with Iran, is ISIS and blah blah blah. Perhaps some of you, may consider taking your heads out from colon inspection posture, and find the one common ground, that the battle lines are drawn between,
Hint: What does Israel have in common with Russia??...and even Syria??..as opposed to the U.S. interests, and why?
The answer to that, defines the battle lines...or should I say the well hidden agenda driven battle lines.....

THINK!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 05:16 PM

Perhaps Obama wants to one-up his predecessor by handing off not two, but three wars to the next President....

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 07:58 PM

Unless the Security Council approves it, any military incursions into Syria without the agreement of the Syrian government is illegal. No ifs and buts and perhapses.

That doesn't mean it might not happen. It does mean that its outcome is bound to be disastrous, in the same way as the illegal invasion of Iraq, and the arguably legal operation in Libya to overthrow the regime - or for tgat matter the legal but still disastrous war in Afghanistan.

Continuing war will indeed ensure continuing flights of refugees. Negotiations without any preconditions are the only way it can end, unless with Russian support Assad can defeat the various oppositions which are fighting each other as well as the government.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Nov 15 - 10:18 PM

"Continuing war will indeed ensure continuing flights of refugees."

If that wasn't said by Orwell it should've been.

Subject: RE: BS: US boots on the ground' in Syria.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 15 - 06:09 AM

"Continuing war will indeed ensure continuing flights of refugees."
Catch 22 it is then.
Can't continue the war because of more refugees, but if Assad is allowed to retain power, more massacres and torture plus the present refugees can only return to face the same.
Hmmmm!!!
Jim Carroll