Penny for the Guy - Mister?

Subject: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:03 PM

In the UK this year we descended into full scale Americana aka commercialised Halloween. So has anyone seen a Guy on the streets this year?

Or indeed over the last 10 years or longer?

What is it that makes Halloween so attractive to kids and adults in the UK. The 99p and £1 shops are full of tatty kids clothes - all likely to be made in the sweat shops of Asia and fully inflammable.

Jeeze - even collecting conkers are ignored by most (now all?) Brit. kids. The actual game was long banned by the Nanny State we have evolved into.

But my question is - where are all of the Guys?

Apart from Lewes and other towns in Sussex which have a healthy disrespect for authority and hold November 5th bonfire celebrations with Guys on top and fireworks.

CJB

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 01:34 PM

collecting sweets while dressed up was seen by authority as safer than collecting money for fireworks and building bonfires in the streets.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 02:25 PM

Last time I saw kids with a guy must have been over 30 years ago.

IIRC the banning of conkers is a urban myth. Of course the kids don't see it worth playing as there are no ads on TV.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,eric the viking.
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 05:56 PM

At my last school on Orkney, my additional needs kids and I made a guy. Stuck it outside of the school gates and cried ,"Guy, Guy, stick him in the eye. All down the street you hear them cry". Then it was ,"Penny for the Guy?". We raised about ten pounds for fireworks which we had in the school playground.Some Papists didn't approve as James was a Scot, but my kids didn't care.

we also played conkers. That was hilarious with poor hand, eye coordination.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 07:00 PM

When I were a young lad in Radcliffe, we had little gangs whose peak activity came in October and early November, when we collected anything that would burn for our bonfire night. There was quite a lot of nastiness involved in this, as we used go sneaking around stealing the "bonfire stock" from other gangs' stacks of burnables when they weren't looking, and we'd quite often find that our stack had been "raided" too. There was a very definite pecking order in each gang, the head poncho generally being the biggest or oldest lad, especially if he had a backup big brother. Fights could ensue between gangs, often involving stone-throwing battles. We always got there in the end. Our Green Street bonfire would never have got past elfansafety regs today, being just yards away from about twenty back-to-back terraced houses. All the dads would supervise the bonfire and we'd set off our fireworks around it (though I'd always save a goodly bundle of penny bangers which came in handy for terrorising the local neighbours and dogs). The dads would throw big potatoes into the fire which always seemed to emerge as inedible burnt offerings. My mum ran the local chippy, and the big treat was when she turned up at the bonfire with huge pans of black peas. Everyone had to come with a mug and a spoon, and as soon as my mum appeared with the pans we'd all ceremonially rattle our spoons loudly in our mugs in hungry anticipation. We always had a guy on top of the fire, but we didn't use him to beg for pennies. Missed a trick there, in hindsight!

One big difference from today is that the bonfire would always be held strictly on November 5, the one exception being if that date fell on a Sunday, in which case we'd have it the night before. None of today's nonsense when we seem to have a bonfire somewhere or other every night for a week or more. I think we had it better!

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 08:03 PM

This week in Whitby, admittedly for the first time in a long time.

I've carved a couple of pumpkins for my sons partners children. ......... my grandchildren outlaws .... what the hell they are both nice kids.

NB If my son and his lovely partner were married she would be my daughter-in-law but they are not so she's my daughter-out-law. Nae Bother.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 15 - 08:33 PM

Well I acquired a lovely daughter-in-law in April, married to my son by Elvis in Las Vegas, and our very first grandchild four weeks ago. We're dead chuffed, we are!

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 07:55 AM

Growing up in Salford it was very much as Steve describes above.

Since we moved to Yorkshire I haven't seen any penny for the guy but I have even it when we have been back to Salford.

In Yorkshire the 4th November is mischief night, where kids traditionally play pranks. Unfortunately it has tended to develop into vandalism night .

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 08:48 AM

Wonder if anybody still sings this?
Jim Carroll

GUY FAWKES
I'll sing a doleful tragedy of Guy Fawkes the Prince of Sinisters,
Who once blew up the House of Lords, the King and all his ministers--
That is, he would have blown them up, and folks will ne'er forget him.
He was so keen to do that deed--that is, if they'd have let him.

He straightway came from Lamberth side and wished the state was undone,
And crossing over Vauxhall Bridge, that way came into London--
That is, he would have gone that way to perpetrate his guilt, sirs,
But a little thing prevented him--the bridge it wasn't built, sirs.

While searching through those dusty vaults with portable gas-light, sirs,
About to touch the powder train at witching hour of night, sirs--
That is, I mean he would have used the gas but was prevented,
For gas, you see, in James' time, it had not been invented.

And when they caught him in the act, so very near the crown's end,
They straightway sent to Bow Street for that brave old runner Townsend-
That is, they would have sent for him, for fear he was not starter at,
But Townsend wasn't living then, he wasn't born 'til after that.

So let's bless the Royal Majesty, and bless the Royal son, sirs,
And may he never get blown up if to the throne he comes, sirs.
And if he does, I'm sure he'll reign--so prophecies my song, sirs;
But if he don't, why then he won't, and so I can't be wrong, sirs.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 09:20 AM

On the estate where I lived in Eccles various "gangs" had bonfires. We had the biggest area of land to build on and therefore our bonfire tended to be the biggest and thus the main target for other "gangs" to burn before bonfire night. We normally started with a three piece suite in the middle and built out round up and over creating a den in the centre of the bonfire. We would guard it as much as possible to prevent attacks on it whilst trying to set fire to the other bonfires on the estate.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 09:35 AM

When I was at (catholic) school in England, they told us we shouldn't burn the guy on the bonfire because Guy Fawkes was a Catholic. Like it would be ok if he had been a Protestant!Good to know that Guy Fawkes night is morphing back into Halloween in most parts of the UK. Maybe it's even reached the additional needs kids in Orkney by now.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Thompson
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 10:20 AM

Yeah, shocking that the fit-up trial of a Catholic and his cruel death should no longer be celebrated. What's the country coming to?

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 12:00 PM

St Peters School in York still doesn't 'celebrate' bonfire night because both Guy Fawkes and his co-conspirator John Wright were alumni.

Founded in AD627 they are also UKs 3rd oldest school, and the world's 4th. Hard to imagine GF going to a school that was already almost 1000 years old.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:24 PM

According to the headmaster of St Peter's, in our local paper yesterday, the whole plot was aimed at destroying a democratically elected Parliament. I hope that he doesn't teach history! The Tudor and early Jacobean Parliaments had about as much to do with democracy as Saudi Arabia has to do with Free Speech.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:25 PM

Nice stories here - from 2003:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=64033 or

thread.cfm?threadid=64033

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:37 PM

This is the first year that I haven't seen a guy in Stoke-on-Trent, very sad. I think the Yanks have won again. I really thought the kids here had more sense, going for illicit money in hand to buy what they like, instead of being given sweets. But alas they seem to have given up. Shame.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:40 PM

Nice to read how all the old people here celebrated Guy Fawkes Night, could have made a nice historic document if anybody had bothered with dates.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:55 PM

My experiences as described were in the late 50s to around 1961. The lady with the black peas, my mum, is still alive and kicking. And I'm not that bloody old!

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Andy7
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:57 PM

Hmm, this is quite a tough one. As a kid, I used to love the tradition of dressing up, and setting fire to, the 'guy'. A cold November evening ... sparkling stars in the sky ... a big bonfire ... fireworks ... hot chestnuts ... laughing friends and family ... what could be better?

But actually, Guy Fawkes was a real person, who was putting himself in mortal danger to carry out something that he believed in, completely wrong though I personally believe he was; and as a real person, he actually suffered, and actually died, for those beliefs.

So, let's bring it up to date. Suppose someone organised a fun celebration, with fireworks and chestnuts, and burned an effigy of a modern-day terrorist, who tried to kill some politicians but failed and was arrested? I don't think many of us would turn up.

So I say, let's just get rid of the Guy-burning altogether. Yes, it's a tradition - but an outdated and barbaric tradition. We don't need it any more.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:36 AM

Hmm - black peas - surely an unknown to the Yanks. In the 1970s when I was at teachers training college in Bolton on Saturdays we used to go up to Bury Market for 'Bury Black Peas' - dowsed in vinegar I seem to remember. Can't get them now - leastways not south of Watford Gap.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:58 PM

I'll be on Bury market next week so I'll take my mum and see if I can track some down.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:39 PM

I lived in Scotland in the 60's. I was too young to go, but they'd have a fire with a fawkes or guy to burn on the "village green", or in a field nearby that anyone could go to.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:40 PM

Half past eleven on bonfire night, mid- Derbyshire. One single firework about 3 hours ago.

Salford? Back in the early 70s I remember some kids with a mongrel on a bogie, asking for "penny for the dog".

But on the other hand when I said I came from Salford recently, someone asked which bit, and I told them, Irlam's o'th' Height, they responded "Ooooh posh!"

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 07:16 PM

A few bangers at 6 o'clock and that was that. Nothing, zero, zilch, sfa. Mind you I heard that Trafalgar Square was crowded.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 08:00 PM

I was on a bloody train hurtling through thick drizzle between Reading and Exeter. Jammed out it was because of earlier cock-ups on the line and we had to to kick two pillocks out of our reserved seats. Didn't see a damn thing out of the windows, not a firework in sight, and the soddin' thing was late. Not only that, before that we'd had to catch a commuter train from Richmond to Reading that was like a sardine tin on wheels, and the whole bloody system was in chaos due to a busted train somewhere or other. It's a miracle we actually got out of London at all. Then an hour's drive from Exeter to Bude in the murk. We don't drink on Thursdays except that I am doing. Grrr.

"Bogie". Wow, I haven't heard that word for decades. Yeah, I remember having the guy on a bogie all right! Always somebody else's gang though. We never got round to demanding dosh for our guy, fools that we were! We used to stick our little brothers on our bogies and charge them around. You could do miracles with a pair or two of old pram wheels. More fun than a barrowload of monkeys - until a wheel or two dropped off!

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 03:24 AM

Irlams O' th' Heights eh, went to school there at St Lukes. Mr Woolf was the headmaster.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:27 AM

Raggytash, I'd have PM'd you if you were signed in, but short of that I'll try thread drift. There was a Christmas carol written by one of the Evanses, of which a 45 was produced and sold in St Luke's, somewhere between 1966 and 1970. It was called Star O Star, IIRC, and was also sung in church around Christmas time. I've tried without success to find the words, though I remember the tune well. emails to the church and school have not produced any response. Do you recall it?

Back on topic, the material that went onto bonfires back then would often have raised interest on Antiques Roadshow now- Victorian wardrobes, horsehair- stuffed settees, mahogany sideboards.... though the settees and chairs were always ripped open to see if anyone had stashed money in them (they never had, but cue for a song so this thread stays up aloft).

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:38 AM

Sorry Paul, no recollect of that at all, however in '66 I moved to De La Salle College.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:44 AM

One in the guise (pun intended) of Cameron & a Pigs head plus Sepp Blatter in Lewes.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 05:48 AM

"Sorry Paul, no recollect of that at all, however in '66 I moved to De La Salle College."

Heheh. I was I once in the school cricket team that thrashed De La Salle some time in the lateish 60s. I was a Thornleigh lad!

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 12:45 PM

What were you like at Rugby Union then??? DLS were fearless!

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 01:07 PM

I know nothing about rugby. It was actually introduced to Thornleigh when I was there but the real lads stuck with cricket and footie. I still know next to nothing about rugby. I know that someone forgot to saw off the tops of the uprights, that the ball's out of shape, that you don't get done for hands and that, oddest of all, when you're trying to score you can run the right way but may only throw the ball the wrong way.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 02:21 PM

How odd! I moved from Irlam's o'th' Heights to Skipton 2.5 years ago and have only just realised I have not seen a guy since! When we were there, there were definitely kids outside all the pubs on th'eights cadging loose change off drunkards and people nipping out for a smoke. Nowt round here, now you come to mention it! Maybe it is a regional thing?

I was a Swinton lad and went to St Mary's and Ambrose Barlow. Went to De La Salle for the 6th form when I was 16 but did not like the regime so left and started work. I don't remember a Mr Woolf at St Lukes, where 3 of my kids went when we moved to Bolton Road, Pendlebury, but the two elder ones went to St Mary's who also had a Mr Woolf headmaster during the 70s and 80s. Wonder if they were related?

Small world init? Or are us Salford lads just taking over Mudcat? :-)

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 04:29 AM

Went to De La Salle ... but did not like the regime

You'd not be alone in that. I had ten years of bloody Brothers and their mates. There can't be that many Woolves around, he was ever so old when I was at St Lukes - possibly as old as 40. That would have him retiring in the mid 80's. My Mum went to St Mary's but that was in the 1920s. She was traumatised when a teacher, pacing up and down between the desks, quietly broke wind near her. She'd never imagined that teachers could have>/i> bottoms.

Let's see. St Luke's- Mr Woolf head, the Harney sisters (one of them traded as Miss Anthony), Mrs Walters, Mr Marsden and the dreaded Miss Ford, though the Brothers had their fangs in me before the last two. Mr Thornton the janitor with his bald head and brown coat, and Mrs Lister the dinner lady. She lined them up in the corridor and marched them where I knew not for dinners, I went home which was just down the road. Massey's pies on Tuesday, Kidd's fish and chips on Friday.

Retournons a nos moutons- no guys and just a staccato pianissimo of fireworks last night, the sort of thing you got at the start of October back in Salford.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 05:36 AM

In the late 50s Brocks Fireworks made one called a Repeating Bombshell. You had to light the touchpaper and run like buggery. Set one of those off today and you'd be arrested on terrorism charges.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:45 AM

In reply to Jim Caroll's post above, I did record this song from a gentleman in Gloucestershire in the 1970s.

See http://glostrad.com/guy-fawkes/.


Tradsinger (as guest until his laptop is repaired)

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 07:29 PM

I haven't seen a Guy for about seven or eight years. The last one was in Wigan, and had a football for a head. At least they'd bothered to make a Guy; it had become the habit to get one lad to slump against the wall with a scarf over his face - I was always tempted to give him a kick to see if he kept up the pretence. On the subject of the now total commercialisation - and Americanisation - of Hallowe'en, when did you last hear of duck-apples or snap-apples? And what ever happened to the turnip lantern? Well, swede, actually, but we always called them turnips. Most of my generation didn't even see a pumpkin until we were about twenty. Turnip lanterns look more sinister than pumpkin ones, which look like somethig out of disneyland. And what the hell have vampires, space aliens, spiders and such got to do with Hallowe'en? GRRRRRRR.

John Kelly - pedant, Luddite and dinosaur. Somebody needs to be.

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 07:36 PM

As a pedant, I must correct my last post; 'disneyland' should, of course, have had a capital D. GRRRR again.
JK

Subject: RE: Penny for the Guy - Mister?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 08:31 PM

Catholics, most of us, the others had the hot tap on the other side. Bonfire night had no agenda in Salford- it was just fireworks and bonfires and occasional fights. And treacle toffee and parkin of course. We never heard of Halloween although All Souls Day was an obliday of holigation. Some cousins once did bobbing for apples, though I can't remember why or when, and it didn't take. Toffee apples were another matter.