BS: The Country's Division (US)

Subject: BS: The Country's Division
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 05:58 PM

Mr. Lincoln may not agree but it seems to me that the USA is at a crisis point and just perhaps, it is time to think of letting go. This time it would not be the North versus the South but the hate-filled, fear-mongering, self-blinded elements of this country versus those who have hope and compassion, those who want to see the country's inhabitants at peace, who look forward to citizenry voting for change and progress, those who want the environment restored to sustainability with proper safeguards put into place and maintained, the same ones who want the gun bloc, the insurance industry, the shoot-and-bomb-entire-regions to the ground war mongers and those who espouse violent means to their desired aims brought into the light, exposed for what they are, and relegated to their proper place, a place that seems to be flying a different banner and in a whole other country.

Obviously there will be a huge shift in the populace as people settle in where they are comfortable. I like the American South but I will live in the North because the rational country needs to have the North as its home- after all, that is where the Statue of Liberty is, whose inscription says and I quote:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:18 PM

Isn't the division between cities and small towns rather than north vs. south?

Appropriate quote, anyway. T-shirts with that poem on would be timely, here in Europe as much in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:29 PM

Isn't the division between cities and small towns rather than north vs. south?

Not so much, since Dick Nixon's "Southern Strategy".

As for Emma Lazarus, she's been superceded by Lou Reed's observation of the current situation:

"Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor, I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death
And get it over with and just dump 'em on the boulevard."

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:43 PM

It also seems that religion has a strangulating and repressive grip on many people in America. So much so that over four in ten think that evolution is a lie. OK, I've said it. I have a feeling that you don't want religion in this thread so that's my last word. Just wanted to mention it in in the cause of completeness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:45 PM

In my opinion, religion belongs in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:48 PM

I would add, however, it is not religion, per se, that does not accept the fact of evolution- the enemy, in all its permutations, is ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:49 PM

So do I. But we have a somewhat passionate religion thread on here already. I'm shutting up - for now! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 15 - 06:52 PM

Sorry, that was a response to,your first reply. However, I wholeheartedly agree with you about ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 09:06 AM

I thought it was "send me your muddled Chassids"

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 01:00 PM

Now is,nt it surprising that so many people in such a technologically advanced nation don't believe in evolution.......no, I don't think it is !

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 15 - 03:01 PM

It's people like you telling them lies, old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 10:24 AM

In the last few days, we've had US politicians:

1) Suggest that Muslims be required to register with the US government, just as Hitler required of German Jews.

2) Suggest that Christians be given preferential treatment over Muslims by US immigration authorities.

3) Suggest that the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII was not such a bad thing after all, and that similarly interning Muslim Americans would be appropriate.


"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Pogo

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 10:26 AM

Generally the dividing line om such matters isn't geographical, it cuts through communities, families, and indeed individuals.

And the actual disagreements don't neatly tie together either, as package deals. We can strongly agree with someone on one issue, and equally strongly disagree on another.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 10:47 AM

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

What you mean "us", Bee?

Sure as fuck ain't ME.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 11:08 AM

Greg, it takes an attitude like yours to find reason to attack someone who is entirely on your side. Have you ever encountered that quote, or thought about what it does or does not imply?

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:21 PM

Have you ever thought about what it actually SAYS, Frog? Pogo Possum was pretty straightforward kinda fellow - didn't go in much for obfuscation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:41 PM

Let's try this again, Frog - "Us" is a collective noun which means that we have all - myself included,

1) Suggested that Muslims be required to register with the US government, just as Hitler required of German Jews.

2) Suggested that Christians be given preferential treatment over Muslims by US immigration authorities.

3) Suggested that the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII was not such a bad thing after all, and that similarly interning Muslim Americans would be appropriate.

As you well know, this is not the case. I suggested no such thing.

Now, if BeeDub had stated "We have met the enemy, and it is THEM" - i.e. brain-dead bloviating mostly Republican assholes, that's a different thing entirely.





v

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 12:52 PM

Steve Shaw: "So do I. But we have a somewhat passionate religion thread on here already. I'm shutting up - for now! ;-)"

What part of eternity is 'now'?..all of it..or none of it???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 01:08 PM

I'm shutting up about religion, you oaf. Didn't mean I won't have something to say about other stuff. Behave yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

OK, then, what part of 'now' is infinity??....all of it..or none of it???

Are you also going to shut up about 'science' and/or physics as well??...or could there be a correlation between them all??
...I mean, the topic is 'Division', isn't it?
Methinks there is more unity in the universe that the political proponents find 'convenient'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 01:37 PM

Actually that slogan was in capitals, meaning that it can equally be read as "us" or "US".See here...

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 03:57 PM

There's an interesting article in McClatchy Newspapers this week about objections to Obama's move to accept 10,000 Syrian refugees. Next year. There was little objection until last week's violence in Paris, but now 30 of 31 Republican governors have announced their opposition to Obama's program.

The article points out that it takes 18 months to be granted residence in the U.S. as a refugee. It's far easier to gain entry to the U.S. with a visa, and citizens of 39 nations that are part of the Visa Waiver Program don't need a visa at all to come to the U.S. So, what's the big deal about admitting refugees, who have gone through an 18-month screening process?

And for that matter, why is it so important to fortify our southern border, when it's so easy for foreigners to enter the United States legally? I think I've read that forty percent of our illegal immigrants came here legally on visas.

But I suppose those 30 governors think they can get some easy votes by making a show of fighting terrorism by opposing legal immigration. And getting votes is so much more important to them than doing what's right.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Nov 15 - 04:30 PM

Thanks, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 03:07 AM

I agree.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 22 Nov 15 - 12:26 PM

Important to remember that in some circumstances things can be obstructed by elected representatives, and that's what's happening in the US. Canada has the luxury of having a Liberal Party majority government.

Canada is presently working its tail off to get 25,000 Syrian refugees relocated to Canada because we want them here by Christmas. The province one might have expected to have fought the idea has heavy money woes due to oil prices. Unemployment is quite high and times is tough. But, that's the nature of boom-bust economics.

From an article in Huffington Post:

"The federal government has said it wants to resettle 25,000 Syrian refugees across Canada by the end of the year.

Notley [leader of the Alberta provincial government] has said she expects Alberta will take between 2,500 and 3,000 of those fleeing the war-torn region."

We have people doing their best to scare us into thinking every Muslim is a terrorist. DOH. It isn't working. And we'll have 25,000 here to celebrate the New Year in their new homes. Gonna be tough for a bit, and they may regret the decision to live in a place that trades snow for sand, but twenty years from now their children will be bitchin' about the weather just like home-grown Canadians. Our country is 95% immigrant. Few of us have forgot what drove our ancestors to seek new lives here. It just means we'll be adding a cup of water to the soup, but everyone will eat, be housed and clad. Many will start businesses, and if history is any indication they'll do well and repay Canada ten times over. And last but not least, the 5% who aren't immigrants are indigenous, and finally there is the possibility of a real and lasting accord between the two sets of people. So to my American friends, there is hope. Just don't give up :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:13 AM

twenty years from now their children will be bitchin' about the weather just like home-grown Canadians.

That's because twenty years from now their children will be home-grown Canadians.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 09:49 AM

And there's that :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 10:05 AM

We have people doing their best to scare us into thinking every Muslim is a terrorist. It isn't working.

Unfortunatelt it seems it be working a treat south of the border, Bruce.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:30 AM

Bruce, if you don't mind, I'm going to disseminate your last paragraph! It is the most hopeful thing I have yet read- just maybe it will sway some minds.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 11:36 AM

Have at it, Eb.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 02:06 PM

The right wing "logic" can be summarized by the following (fallacious) syllogism:

All terrorists are bad

All terrorists are Muslims

Therefore, all Muslims are bad


If you don't see what is wrong with this line of "reasoning", you are one of them.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 04:55 PM

Nonsense!!...THAT is the 'so-called liberals' take on it....and I'm not even a right winger!! 'If you don't see what is wrong with this line of "reasoning", you are one of them.'...meaning the illogical 'The Country's Division (US)'.....
That is only what YOU are SUPPOSED to think...therefore, a division!!
Get over it.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:10 PM

Say good night, Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:29 PM

The atrocity in Paris was perpetrated by eight people.
How many eights in 25000?

No one in their right mind thinks that all Muslims are terrorists...or says it( I have never heard it said), but Jihadi terrorists are the greatest danger to European or North American countries. It would be sensible to take all necessary precautions.....but we wont, for ideological reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:53 PM

No one in their right mind thinks that all Muslims are terrorists...or says it( I have never heard it said)

Guess you haven't been listening to the spew of the several Republican presidential candidates and the response of their supporters, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Nov 15 - 05:55 PM

Ake, people in their right minds don't become Jihadis, Republicans or Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:48 AM

The lunatics appear to have taken over the asylum. Stupidity is preferred to intelligence. Ignorance and superstition are preferred to knowledge. The dread of "the other" is prevalent. Amongst far too many in the USA.

Meanwhile, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, the rich systematically oppress the poor, the media owned by the rich systematically lie to the masses, and the stupid believe those lies - and paragraph 1 above is repeated and amplified.

And the living proof is Donald Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:57 AM

Oh, and here's another manifestation: -

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Alleged-White-Supremacists-Shoot-Black-Protesters-in-Minneapolis--20151124-0001.html

Anybody taking bets that Trump will soon be saying "Maybe it was the right thing to do"?

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 04:27 AM

..and as previously posted, Richard, Trump would not have the traction he's gotten without the Democrats FAILING to hold their guys accountable and in check. Instead, they just vacantly repeat the same spun, mythical nonsense, until the damage has become undeniable....which gave rise to the likes of Trump.
That's why I've called them 'so-called liberals'...because they spew the same garbage, as their elected used car salesmen, without THINKING!! ...and in doing so, have NOT been, in fact, truly 'liberal'..just party shills for the corporations who control the party..feeding at the trough...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 10:00 AM

Trump would not have the traction he's gotten without the Democrats FAILING to hold their guys accountable

Same old nonsense, eh Goofus? Time for your nap, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 12:38 PM

What, if anything, do you mean, FFS? who are these "their guys"? What have they done? To what alleged myths do you refer? And what do you mean by "liberal", and are you aware of its meaning as a part of economic theory?

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM

it's the same in the uk pricky ricky. the uber rich like murdock smear corbyn endlessly, and cameron wins an election on hate. to match the long history of hate in england that has led to genocides all over the wrold to make a fast buck. can you say the many bengal famines? the irish genocide? the ethnic cleansing of acadiens? etc. don't pretend the uk is any different. in the anglo world ignorance and hate and war have been winning out for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: The Country's Division (US)
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 15 - 03:59 PM

The people who are "attacking" Corbyn are the Blairites in the parliamentary Labour Party.

They, as always, are the biggest danger to socialism, not the Tories