BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate

Subject: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:11 PM

Expected his tailor to work for free:

http://newsdaily.com/2015/12/uk-wartime-leader-winston-churchill-refused-to-pay-his-tailors-bills/

Pretty much in character for someone who got Larry the Lamb to read his broadcasts when he was too sloshed to function and had his books ghostwritten by Arthur Bryant.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:29 PM

After all, they were in trade. I would bet that his gambling debts to other gentlemen were promptly paid.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:29 PM

What is the source of this information .

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 03:50 PM

Hey Jack, did chairman Mao, Zhou Enlai or Stalin pay theirs? Just wonderin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 04:20 PM

"Despite the arrears, the tailor had continued to make clothes for Churchill, said James Sherwood, a historian who has examined Poole and Co's archives."

That's from the article. Obviously, they didn't feel quite as POed about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 07:28 PM

I suppose the equivalent is "think of the exposure you're getting" from people who want to use copyrighted music for nothing.

I first heard of this kind of behaviour as done by Madonna - she doesn't pay for her clothes either.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 07:37 PM

I prefer to remember him as the man who shot down the striking miners of Tonypandy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: BanjoRay
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 08:22 PM

Wasn't he the brains behind the Gallipoli debacle?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 08:25 PM

Shot down. Tell me about that Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 08:40 PM

http://www.bbc.com/news/10294530

Uh huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 03 Dec 15 - 08:52 PM

Thanks for the info but i did all of that. But i not heard that miners were shot down. That is what i was asking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:12 AM

It is easy to tear down the reputations of the long dead who were of their time I wonder how history will judge any of us mind you I don't see anyone here who will ever have risen high enough to even be remembered.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:24 AM

Wheeooo, Megan. That's harsh.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:34 AM

It's not harsh at all. I entirely agree with Megan.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:14 AM

Jim Carroll - 03 Dec 15 - 07:37 PM - Just more Made Up Shit

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:16 AM

Another person who didn't pay their tailor was Robert Burns.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:22 AM

At college as an apprentice colliery electrician, a tutor once told us that Churchill when Home Secretary personally ordered soldiers to fix bayonets and rush a picket line.

I don't actually know how apocryphal that story is, but I have seen film footage of him around the same time being out with the army and police giving orders to quell a riot in London.

As the strike isn't yet 100 years old, you can still find out the truth before the sanitising of awful reality, as we have seen with WW1, where bloodthirsty incompetence by leaders is being rehabilitated by shameful tame historians with scant evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:31 AM

That incident (3.22am) was the balcombe street siege.
It involved armed activists, not strikers.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:46 AM

It is easy to tear down the reputations of the long dead who were of their time

That's just stupid. The vast majority of people in Churchill's time were not vicious, selfish, reactionary opportunists. Moral standards don't change. He was an evil thug by the standards of his own time just as he is by ours. (And the people who cheered him on in his lifetime would cheer Donald Trump on now).

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 04:00 AM

GUEST - 04 Dec 15 - 03:22 AM - hello Musktwat long on stories and rumours - only trouble is it is always so very short on detail, fact or truth.

Cannot think why you keep referring to WWI - you lot keep getting completely hammered any time you try to peddle your myths, misrepresentations and lies about it.

This the man we are talking about?

"Sir Winston Churchill has been named the greatest Briton of all time in a nationwide poll attracting more than a million votes.
Participants in the survey voted the second World War leader top of the list of the country's 100 most significant individuals, with 447,423 votes."

I ask because since your glorious leader - Tony Blair - started banging on about "Education, Edyoukashun, EhjooKayShun" and the history syllabus in schools has been destroyed in the interests of God knows what - most under 25s in Great Britain mainly associate the name Churchill with a dog that is used to sell insurance ont Telly - that is how far we have fallen with you clowns applauding all the way.


Oh and Camping Jack - As to speeches and books - one thing that is beyond doubt - from his mid-teens at Harrow Winston Churchill's command of the English language was superb.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 04:04 AM

As a point of fact, there were no miners shot by troops in Tonypandy - this is quite clear from examining several sources. The commander in charge of the troops acted with more thought and forbearance than the local police chief constable.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 04:05 AM

" I don't see anyone here who will ever have risen high enough to even be remembered."

That's because those who truly rise to the heights don't bray about it. There will be people on this board who have performed incredible acts of selflessness and bravery. They might single-handedly look after relatives with long-term illnesses, be A&E doctors working ludicrously long shifts in inner city accident units or working in warzones and deprived communities where life is short, brutal and defined by appalling suffering. They might have been children caring for parents and loosing their childhood to a burden of responsibility we can't even imagine.

They could look after disabled people, suffer long-term illnesses that causes them distress and hurt behind endurance, they might spend their lives fighting for the myriad of lost causes that our modern corporate world squashes like insects without a thought as it destroys the wonderful diversity of life and culture that have taken countless millennia to form.

Churchill was a racist and imperialist of the worst order and not a nice person (he was Colonial Secretary and unleashed the Black and Tans on Irish innocents). He galvanised our nation in a way very few, if any could as we stood alone against the Nazis, and this meant with our combined effort we took a beating but turned them back. However, he didn't do the fighting; our relatives did that and died and suffered in high numbers. He was a man whose own particular type of imperialist brutality suited a moment when perhaps nothing else would save us; he was a man of war and violence to the core.

Churchill was terrible peace-time PM and by the time he was PM for the second time the world and moved on, and people had had enough of conflict and wanted to forge a new world; the postwar period is when the UN, NHS and welfare state were established and the nation was more compassionate. Suffice to say those who admire Churchill most are the ones with contempt for those very institutions. In that regard, his spirit lives on.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 05:52 AM

"As a point of fact, there were no miners shot by troops in Tonypandy "
True - Will - there were reports at the time that 2 miners were shot but these were never confirmed.
The miners trades unionists in their literature later referred to it as 'The Tonypandy massacre' and letters to the press repeated the accusations when that grotesque statue of Churchill (looking like the Shakespearian caricature of Richard III) repeated the accusation.
Urban myth maybe - or maybe another cover-up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 06:46 AM

stu - that looks like a fair summing up of churchill. and i very much agree with your assessment of the heroics of many extraordinary ordinary people. churchill was an effective and popular war leader (unfortunately war does tend to make leaders popular. for a time) however, there is never any excuse for bad manners or aggressive bigotry. so not a great man.

shane mcgowan wrote some fantastic songs and when on form is a top live performer.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 07:31 AM

So, achmel, you would rubricate the aggressive and unmannerly Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington, "not a great man", would you? Or Alfred Lord Tennyson of the notoriously creaking braces? Or Gladstone, whose manners ["He addresses me as if I were a public meeting!"] Queen Victoria hated? Not sure everyone would agree that a smooth & courteously polite mannerliness constitutes an earnest or essential of 'greatness', however defined -- another of those weasel words, to be sure!.

Churchill had the fortune to be one of those (like the contentious Cardigan, eg, or the truculent and adulterous Nelson) who had the fortune to be at hand when his particular strengths happened to be available at the very moment they were needed — the fortune thus being shared by the nation as a whole; IMO outweighing for posterity his/their manifestly less lovable or praiseworthy characteristics.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:13 AM

you would rubricate the aggressive and unmannerly Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington, "not a great man", would you?

His contemporaries did. His war record didn't stop him becoming the most despised public figure in Britain by 1830. (They named a bridge in Edinburgh after him in 1815, but he was so universally loathed they changed it first to the Regent Bridge and then the Waterloo Bridge within a few years).

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 10:07 AM

"His contemporaries did. "
They did indeed
There's still a local legend told in a pub he was said to frequent, The Grenadier - not far from Hyde Park Corner, which backs onto the Wellington Barracks, in the Park
They say he was so unpopular that he couldn't walk out at night for fear of being beaten up that he had a tunnel built from the barracks into the cellar (have seen what's left of the entrance)
It's said to be haunted by the ghost of a soldier who was flogged to death for attacking him.
The 5th Duke of Wellington, Arthur Charles Wellesley, was one of the Fascists who organised an 'alternative Government' in the hope that Hitler would win the war.
He died cursing "the Yids" from his deathbed.
Funny lot, the upper classes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Stu
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 11:02 AM

"who had the fortune to be at hand when his particular strengths happened to be available at the very moment they were needed"

You mean when he was shooting people in the Sudan, oppressing the Irish or admiring the success of concentration camps? The reputation of the British has been tainted for years my the exploits of Churchill and his like.

No-one doubts his ability to strengthen the resolve of a nation through his impressive speeches was a major part of the fact we held the Nazis back, but so did the efforts of our families who were out there fighting, dying and suffering for the cause. In their millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:01 PM

The 5th Duke of Wellington, Arthur Charles Wellesley, was one of the Fascists who organised an 'alternative Government' in the hope that Hitler would win the war.
He died cursing "the Yids" from his deathbed.

In which he was following the family tradition - the original Duke (MGM's hero) got the Jewish Emancipation Bill defeated in 1833.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:01 PM

What is a Musktwat? Why is the person writing as Teribus referring to my post and ascribing things that seem as confused as they are trolling and vicious?

I repeat. At college, we were told that Churchill told soldiers to fix bayonets on striking miners. I have no idea if this was apocryphal or not.

How that statement got such an irrational response is totally beyond me. I suspect it isn't my intellect that is at fault for that matter. If he is confusing me with someone else on the basis of what I say, how can anything he writes he taken seriously?

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:13 PM

What on earth can have led Jack to name old Duke W as my "hero"? Where have I expressed or implied any such opinion? He's not usually so silly, & doesn't make a point any the stronger by being so.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:22 PM

I have a lot of gripes with Winston, but during the war he held this country together.
Before my time, but reading back he seemed to be respected and admired by all classes.

At least he wasn't a "liberal" in the mould of Mr Blair, our latest "war leader.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:23 PM

I bet Tony pays all his bills!!   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:24 PM

Churchill did order troops with fixed bayonets into Glasgow, supported by tanks and howitzers, to suppress the Forty Hours Strike in 1919. To this day, still the only time a British Home Secretary has ordered armoured vehicles and artillery to attack the British people on the British mainland.

Churchill's actions at Tonypandy seem to have been amplified by folklore. On the other hand, his role in the repression of the Clydeside workers seems to have been progressively forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 12:26 PM

Oh, cut him some slack..he got you through the war, and led Britain into and through its 'Finest Hour'....a lot more than his babbling detractors could ever do!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM

Churchill was only a 'good war leader' in respect of his resolve and public presence. The chap mostly running the war, the Chief of the Imperial General staff Sir Alan Brook, said that Winston had ten new ideas to help win the war, only one of them was any good and he doesn't know which it is.

He totally supported 'Bomber' Harris's campaign to bomb German cities at a time when the bombing was so inaccurate that it was largely just a waste of resources and men's lives. Harris wouldn't release long range maritime patrol aircraft to cover Atlantic convoys and Churchill supported him in this.

Churchill talked about Italy as the soft underbelly of Europe. My dad could have assured him it wasn't.

It's a pity so many people bought into the Churchill myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:17 PM

Well, unlike here, in the U.S., at least he had the good sense to appoint capable and competent people to his staff...you probably just don't like his politics...or in other words YOUR political bent is supposed to not like him, and like a good little sheep, you just follow the 'party line'...but be of good cheer, he's dead.... and..be of 'not so good cheer'..you're a terminal whiner!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:36 PM

During a visit to America, Winston Churchill was invited to a buffet luncheon at which cold fried chicken was served. Returning for a second helping, he asked politely, "May I have some breast?"

"Mr. Churchill," replied the hostess, "in this country we ask for white meat or dark meat." Churchill apologized profusely.

The following morning, the lady received a magnificent orchid from her guest of honor. The accompanying card read: "I would be most obliged if you would pin this on your white meat."

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 01:46 PM

If you dislike Winston Churchill use him as a shining example of what NOT to be. Lead a better life than he did. Accomplish more. Lead a war torn country for yourself. Pay your bills without fail. Be kind to women and children. Tip your waiter. And above all - get off your computer and go DO something.

That will show him.....

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:27 PM

So, Wesley, because I'm a lousy footballer and am too old to play anyway, I am not allowed to express an opinion about how my team's doing, eh? Well we can't all be Stevie Gerrards or Winston Churchills, can we? As for "accomplish more", there are thousands of people working in care homes on the minimum wage wiping old people's bottoms who could have shown Winston a thing or two about leading a good life and being kind. And, unlike the great war hero, they actually get their hands dirty.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:40 PM

because I'm a lousy footballer and am too old to play anyway
NONSENSE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 02:57 PM

FDR was a reasonable example of how to be a leader capable of defeating Hitler without being an unmitigated shitbag. But the American Right would rather airbrush him out of history since Churchill was more their sort of guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 03:40 PM

Anyone notice that Akenaton calls anyone he is below in intellect a "liberal" yet says Churchill wasn't?

Churchill is perhaps the only person Akenaton has ever referred to on these threads who ever did stand as a Liberal. 👬

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Wesley S
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 04:20 PM

"FDR was a reasonable example of how to be a leader capable of defeating Hitler without being an unmitigated shitbag"

And yet he cheated on his wife. Another example of a politician who wasn't perfect. Lets not sit around waiting for perfect people to show up and get the job done. Unless y'all are willing to step up.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 04:36 PM

This is why I deemed Megan L's assessment as harsh: "There will be people on this board who have performed incredible acts of selflessness and bravery. They might single-handedly look after relatives with long-term illnesses, be A&E doctors working ludicrously long shifts in inner city accident units or working in warzones and deprived communities where life is short, brutal and defined by appalling suffering. They might have been children caring for parents and loosing their childhood to a burden of responsibility we can't even imagine.

"They could look after disabled people, suffer long-term illnesses that causes them distress and hurt behind endurance, they might spend their lives fighting for the myriad of lost causes that our modern corporate world squashes like insects without a thought as it destroys the wonderful diversity of life and culture that have taken countless millennia to form." Stu 4:05 am

We'll never know, will we.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Joe_F
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 06:09 PM

"One may sneer as one will at its narrow-mindedness, its repressions, its dullness, butlet it be remembered that it was the middle-class who first practiced, if it did not invent, the virtue of financial honesty, the first class to be scrupulous about paying bills and taxes. The aristocracy paid its gambling debts but not its tailors' bills; the poor stole."
-- W. H. Auden, _A Certain World_, s.v. Middle-Class, English

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 07:11 PM

"Joan of Arc was a being so uplifted from the ordinary run of mankind that she finds no equal in a thousand years. She embodied the natural goodness and valour of the human race in unexampled perfection. Unconquerable courage, infinite compassion, the virtue of the simple, the wisdom of the just, shone forth in her. She glorifies as she freed the soil from which she sprang." ~ Sir Winston Churchill

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 08:03 PM

My goodness Jom the shit that you believe

Churchill ordered the shooting of striking miners did he? Who did it? Not "Special Groups of Military Policemen" trying to keep their hands in the First World War having ended? Again I bet these miners who were shot have no names and thousands of old miners swearing blind that they witnessed the shootings.

"There's still a local legend told in a pub he was said to frequent, The Grenadier - not far from Hyde Park Corner, which backs onto the Wellington Barracks, in the Park
They say he was so unpopular that he couldn't walk out at night for fear of being beaten up that he had a tunnel built from the barracks into the cellar (have seen what's left of the entrance)
It's said to be haunted by the ghost of a soldier who was flogged to death for attacking him."

EHmmm Jom first find out when Wellington Barracks was built, then find out what job Wellington was doing at the time. Then work out the difference in location between Horse Guards and Wellington Barracks, then come back and explain to us all why that "legend" is a crock of shit - so big a crock that not even you could have made it up. Don't think Wellington would have been the pub-going sort - not his scene at all - he did however walk freely about London without any sort of "security detail". Wellington's unpopularity? He was a ardent campaigner for the abolition of slavery, championed catholic emancipation and Irish Home Rule and deliberately crashed two Tory Governments so that the issues of the day could be decided by the people - Country First Not Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Dec 15 - 09:01 PM

All correct teribus. But one should not disagree with Jim on matters of history. Even if he is dead wrong? He is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Winston Churchill, thieving cheapskate
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 01:41 AM

This pretty much sums it up.....""If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain." -Winston Churchill

GfS