BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)

Subject: BS: Disrepute
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 09:16 AM

So the Catholic Church has unearthed a second fake miracle which now enables them to make a saint of Mother Teresa. A woman who channelled almost all her donors' money away from the poor it was intended for in favour of expanding her convents, whose institutions kept sick people in conditions of appalling neglect and mistreatment, who told the poor to celebrate their lot, who preached the virtues of sexual ignorance whilst opposing birth control and abortion, and who was in bed with revolting dictators, will now become someone for Catholics to pray to. If this can happen, well I dunno about you but if I were still a Catholic (I expect I still am one in the Vatican's statistics) I would be questioning the legitimacy of every saint ever made! What a terrible decision, making it all the more difficult for the world to truly see what a self-serving charlatan she was.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 09:46 AM

Completely disagree my friend but you are entitled to your opinion. Happy holidays to you and yours. I am grand baby busy

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 09:57 AM

Me too and to you too. However, you may disagree with my opinions, but the points I made about her behaviour are facts. All checkable. "Disagreeing" with verifiable facts is called denial. With regard to this poisonous person, denial is a widespread trait in Catholicism which goes right to the top.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 10:30 AM

Mother T is notoriously one of those personalities who polarise opinion. She certainly had that indispensible knack of getting noticed!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 10:38 AM

Thanks to her British PR agent Malcolm Muggeridge the serial groper.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 10:46 AM

Steve we can only control what we do, not any church not any political party not any other person. It's just wasted energy don't you think. Who cares. Any way that's how I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 10:55 AM

If scientology wanted to make tom Cruise a status of clear, and they did what affect does it have on life and how in the world do I who is not a scientology member care if they do or no.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:20 AM

Go Dan!!!

The thing is, disaffected (hurt) people have just as skewed a view as fanatical proponents. (They have their own kind of denial.)

Through listening to (usually) 12-15 views from folks across the spectrum, a sense of what may be true can be discerned-- that's how my denom makes important decisions about reality anyway, and it's amazing how views may vary while internal BS-detectors are in total agreement-- often at the first vote.

Usually the farther one is from the thing to be discerned, the less accurate can be one's view. What we can touch and look in the eye is the best scale still, despite our societies' current love affair with social media and its messages otherwise.

So if we focus (as Dan says) on what we can actually control (impact, influence, etc), as human beans in all our brilliance we can make good decisions in those things for which we are accountable.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 12:28 PM

I agree with Steve on the matter in question but also with Dan on it being something beyond our control. As it is beyond our control, the best thing we can do is voice our opinions and let off steam. Mudcat is (usually!) such a good place to do that without doing anyone any harm :-) Nice to see such a controversial topic being discussed with good humour and decorum too. I hope it can last.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 12:30 PM

Considering the entrance exam for being a saint is to do something you clearly cannot in any way shape or form, I don't think the idea of the Vatican claiming they can turn base metal into gold or that the pope has a monthly appraisal by God is a story.

Commending Mother Teresa can however be seen as being out of touch with reality, having a shaky moral compass and disregarding or ignoring a hell of a lot of pain and suffering.

Oh, must be priests then.

Dan is right. It's their club. Steve is right, respect has to be earned not bestowed.

I'm right. The pub beckons.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 12:38 PM

Sod 'em.. I don't care...
it's like the Queen deciding which colour curtains to put up in her toilet... I just don't give a monkeys...

The Vatican and all their saints are of even less interest to me than the goings on in Narnia and Neverland...

The only saint that ever mattered to me was when I was a kid..

and that was was Roger Moore... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 12:47 PM

It's amazing that in this day and age someone as awful as Mother Teresa can evade proper scrutiny. Sycophancy rules supreme in the Catholic Church, it seems. It's even more amazing that "miracles" are required in order to put the rubber stamp on someone's alleged saintliness. That would be incredibly childish even if there were such things as miracles. As it is, the two events in question simply don't stand up to scrutiny, which is probably why scrutiny from outside is forbidden. The first "miracle" was simply laughable. No-one is getting anywhere near the man who's the subject of the second one. This kind of dishonesty is worth remembering whenever we get beaten round the head with religion-inspired "moral codes." Hence the thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: olddude
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 12:59 PM

The path to God is in ones heart, when any church talks to me about being a better person, I listen, but if they talk about other things like politics or gays or anything of the like, I walk out. Some have strange rules. I am close to the amish and treasure my amish friends, but they have just the same issues as everyone else. Driving a buggy instead ofsa car doesn't make one a better person. It's in the heart and the choice

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 01:06 PM

I bet it makes them more patient though.

The idea of living to a set of rules imposed by others, from birth generally, does make you wonder where the consent is. But dipping in where it plays a purpose to you individually is what keeps it relevant for those who wish it to be.

There again, if anybody involved in organised religion is allowed to read, I commend the bible to them. I have been told there is something in the book about not judging lest ye be judged. Be nice if religions took that sage advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 02:09 PM

It would seem that the Church is nnot going to end the year well in Ireland
Another clerical abuse film "Spotlight," is about to hit the fan here - this time based on what happened in Boston (though I doubt it will get general release, things still being as they are)
Saw the trailer last Thursday, where on of the characters says, "it's not just here, it's world-wide"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 02:31 PM

Well, my experience is that few people are as bad as some people say they are; and few people are as good as other people say they are.

Conservative Catholics have lifted Mother Teresa up Jacob's Ladder so she's three rungs higher Jesus Christ himself, and that makes me gag. And the late, great St. Hitchens and his minions have made her Queen of Hell.

I think she's somewhere in the middle. Quite a bit too conservative for my tastes, but well-intentioned. I work in poverty programs here in Northern California, and I can report that her sisters do good work and appear to spend very little on themselves. But yes, they do tend to be conservative in their thinking, which is a mortal sin in the Gospel of St. Hitchens.

When people are demonized or lionized, I tend not to believe either the demonizers or the lionizers. MGM says, "Mother T is notoriously one of those personalities who polarise opinion." I would suggest that the opinions on both poles are highly distorted, and should not be believed. Nobody is that good, and nobody is that bad.

-Joe Offer, Radical Moderate-

P.S. I'm a bit embarrassed by the requirement that saints perform "miracles" in order to be canonized. I'm sure most saints are embarrassed by that requirement, too. It's one of those things I take with a grain of salt. Pope Francis has dispensed with the "miracle requirement" on occasion. I think he agrees with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 06:09 PM

That is just so disingenuous. Somewhere in the middle, eh? Well, she received over one hundred million dollars from donors who thought they were giving to the poor. Over ninety million dollars of that money was diverted into expanding her convents, which had the main aim of ruthlessly spreading Catholicism. No wonder popes loved her, huh? She received big donations from the Duvaliers and heaped praise on them in return, and they weren't her only favourite dictators. Have a little read about what she said to the people of Bhopal, and watch the footage of her rotten institutions. To be honest, Joe, if that's "somewhere in the middle," I wouldn't like to see the really nasty ones. Open yer eyes, mate. She's not just as bad as " some people" say she was, she was a damn sight worse, if you're honest.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 06:38 PM

A hundred million dollars is bang on in the middle when discussing papal finance Steve.

Obscene I know, and think of the money that could be used to help those in need if gilded statues and clerical lifestyle at the top weren't more important to the Catholic church.

Sadly, a word to the wise. Those who are impressed by smells and bells aren't listening and the rest of us? We know and reminding us doesn't improve the world mate. It really doesn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 06:56 PM

Screw Mother Teresa, it's Osama bin Laden who should be canonized, after all the US got what it deserved......right comrades?

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 08:08 PM

Take your usual crap somewhere else, Guest BeardedSawz.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 09:30 PM

If Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu is a saint, good. If she isn't, it will work itself out eventually. Frankly, this is something I can't worry too much about.

Now, Gabriel Possenti already is a saint. And handgunners and pistoleros and shooters don't have a patron saint. So how about the Vatican gets off its duff and makes Gabe their patron saint?

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 15 - 11:10 PM

I don't know how much money Mother Teresa collected. The religious order she founded, the Missionaries of Charity, has 4,500 sisters and is active in 133 countries. It costs a lot to house and feed all those nuns. Most of what they give to people in need is their presence, and their hard work - so of course the donated money would go to feed and house the sisters and other members of the order. While they do seem to be very conservative, they have a reputation for being willing to do the dirty work without complaint. They've done that here in Northern California, both in San Francisco and in Sacramento. The Missionaries of Charity nuns I've met personally have been conservative and a little weird (in my opinion), but they are indeed willing to do whatever is needed to help the poor, with no agenda attached. People respond to them very well.

So, OK, I don't agree with them philosophically, but they're working in the same area I'm working in. Should I push them aside in spite, or should I figure out a way to work with them without pushing their conservative "hot buttons"? They're very gracious about not pushing mine, so I don't push theirs - and so we work together and disregard the ideologies and get the work done. And I've found them to be nice people to work with.

I've worked for over 25 years as a volunteer at a women's center in Sacramento, founded by liberal nuns from the "Nuns on the Bus" Sisters of Social Service, and now run by Loretto sisters of the Institute of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Our chief expense is salaries, although I don't think we pay anybody over $30,000 a year. We give out material goods that are donated to us, but it's the people who do the work that really count. Is it a crime to spend money to support people who work to help the poor?

I think this thread again makes it clear that the absolutists I call "born-again atheists" are just as rigid and judgmental as fundamentalist "born-again Christians." They are far more concerned about having proper ideology, than they are about performing any service to make this world better for people who are in need. When's the last time you judgmental people shoveled human feces or picked up a used condom? I do both at least once a month. I don't like doing it and I see no eternal reward in it, but it makes the place look and smell better. That's what it's all about, making the world just a little bit better.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 03:37 AM

"Born again atheists"

This from someone who parades his boutique Christianity as a virtue.

Joe. This is about glorifying a person whose methods and tactics for dealing with social issues were not exactly in the interest of those affected by her organisation. The work being carried out now is neither all good or all bad. It has certainly been tempered since she died. Her death resulted in an opportunity to at least try to reform and transform, as the management types would say.

Assuming that criticism of a service is an attack on your beliefs is both silly and deflects from Steve's original point. Firstly, is glorifying her giving credence to acts that should never be encouraged? If the pope wants to meet with world leaders and set himself up as a statesman, is it right that he makes himself look a laughing stock by believing in miracles as part of his judgements?

Nothing to do with your faith, as indeed the work you do is about the people you help, not the organisation providing it.

Allowing work being carried out in the name of a religion has in the past allowed the religious body to be above scrutiny. Not any more, as those protecting monsters in their midst have been finding out.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:04 AM

Sorry, Musket, but the "monstrosity" of Mother Teresa has not been proved to my satisfaction. As far as can see, her only sin was that she was an old-fashioned Albanian woman with old-fashioned thinking. I can't see why you people are so obsessed about the old lady.

St. Hitchens tried a smear job on her, but I don't believe him. There is far more credible evidence that indicates that she did a lot of good.

I don't really know what you mean by "boutique Christianity." As I read the Gospel, Christianity is supposed to be intelligent, tolerant, and dedicated to serving those in need - with no agenda or ideology attached. Where's the "boutique"?

Those rigid-minded atheists and "believers" whose primary goal is the condemnation of others, can stew in their anger and self-righteousness if that's what they want to do. But it doesn't seem to me to be a very good way to live life. If there's a hell, they'll all end up there together - and they can spend eternity seething in hatred of each other.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:12 AM

"born-again atheists"
Some of aren't "born again" anythings Joe - we have been what we are regarding religion for the most of our thinking lives, especially when we escaped the drip-drip-drip (and sometimes 'thump-thump-thump) of having it driven into us daily at school as indisputable fact under the threat of Eternal Damnation.
There is an arrogance connected with religion that claims you have to believe in in the unseeable and unprovable to do good thinks or be a fully rounded human being - it's even been stated from the pulpit (before the days of clerical abuse revelations) that unbelievers are lesser than human - "It ain't necessarily so, Joe"
It's about time that the religious faced their own demons instead of trying to save us from ours - it's beginning to happen in droves here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:22 AM

Well, Jim, it's true that there are lots of Christians whose primary religious focus seems to be the drive to condemn the conduct of others - and I think that's deplorable. Too bad there are so many atheists who seem driven to follow their example. I used to think of atheists as thoughtful, tolerant people - but the militant atheists I encounter here are just as intolerant and just as obnoxious as the worst of the born-again fundamentalist Christians.

I'm really sorry if somebody threatened you with Eternal Damnation. It didn't happen to me - or at least not to the point where I believed it. I had too many good experiences with religious people to counteract the bad. I suppose I should apologize for threatening absolutist atheists with an eternity confined with absolutist Christians. But birds of a feather....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:38 AM

Jim Carroll says: There is an arrogance connected with religion that claims you have to believe in in the unseeable and unprovable to do good thinks or be a fully rounded human being

No doubt about that, Jim. There are lots of religious people who do and think and say all sorts of bad things. On the other hand, there are lots of religious people who aren't that way at all.

It's the rigid universality of your condemnation that I disagree with.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:40 AM

the "monstrosity" of Mother Teresa has not been proved to my satisfaction.

Catholic apologists will always have a soft-spot for the crazy old shitbag. Here's one from one of her stand-up gigs in which she describes the spiritual benefits of withholding painkillers from the sick & dying. Naturally, the audience lap it up...

The Jesus Kiss Routine

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 04:55 AM

It's never about religious people Joe - I've said often enough that anybody is entitled to their view on these subjects and that my life has been 'blessed' by associating with genuine believers.
It's when powerful bodies, such as churches are given access to our minds and drive their "facts" into our children's heads day after day without our having a choice in the matter.
If I had children of school age I would have to drive them about 50 miles to find a school that didn't put them through this process - and then, they would be put on a waiting list.
Over 90% of our schools responsible for the first years of our childrens' education is owned by the church - children are being turned away from may of these schools because they don't have a baptismal certificate - that is enforced brainwashing and should be illegal.
It should be the choice of the parents what their children should be taught in this respect - never the state - and never, never some self-appointed body such as the church.
This is wrong - wrong - wrong.
The church has been proven unfit to be trusted with the care of children and if it was any other organisation that had behaved as they have, they would have been abolished long ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 05:18 AM

I dunno, Jim. I suppose it's different in Ireland. Seems to me, though, that if parents don't want to send kids to church-owned schools, the option is to establish a school not owned by the church.

I wanted to send my kids to church-owned schools, so I paid for it - in addition to the taxes I paid for state-owned schools.

And I sent my kids to church-owned schools because I thought they would get a better education there, and that they would not have to attend classes that were watered down to appease the very vocal conservatives in our area. As far as I can tell, my children had no "facts" driven into their heads, but I suppose that's all in the eye of the beholder. There were many people who claimed my children's schools were "socialist" and "anti-American" because they taught about the effects of poverty in our area, that they were "brainwashing" our children to be anti-capitalist.

In my area, "powerful bodies such as churches" are the primary voice on behalf of the homeless and the immigrants.

Like I said, Jim, it's the rigid universality of your condemnation that I disagree with. I suspect you have tunnel vision. I've heard from reliable sources that even in Ireland, there are many good, intelligent people who participate in or lead religious activities. I've even met some there myself. I met some of the other kind there, too - I didn't like them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 05:31 AM

I have not seen any evidence of universal condemnation, Joe. Both Steve and Jim have stated that the have no issues with 'people of faith' and it is simply some of the actions of some of 'the management' that is at fault. What do you mean by 'the rigid universality of your condemnation'?

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 05:31 AM

In short Joe, if you can't accept boutique Christian as a label, don't go calling people born again atheists.

I live in a country where religion went out of fashion years ago for most of us. My parents stopped going to chapel during the war and never went back. They taught me what I taught my kids, how to think not what to think. The term "born again" implies we may have been superstitious at some time. Most of us aren't, never have been nor see the intellectual argument for identifying something nobody can or ever has answered.

Seeing scrutiny of a social service as an attack on your faith, on the basis the service was in the name of your faith is silly and deflects from the issue. It's very simple. Please defend her tactics and outcomes if you wish, but to weigh any positive aspects of your creed into the argument for her work just puts your creed in the firing line too. I'm sure you and others use the institution of your church to do good deeds. I don't think you are doing it any favours here.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 05:32 AM

I agree with you Joe.! It is this dogmatic anti religious bias that is so troubling. I attended religious schools, got a very good education,was not"damaged" in any way and did not grow up to be narrow minded regarding the beliefs of others.
I also grew up in a religiously conservative household yet everything and anything could be debated and discussed, attitudes like some expressed here would have been considered small minded and narrow. But there are people who believe that their version of the world is the only version, the politest word for such people is "dogmatic".

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 05:40 AM

OK, HiLo, I will ask the question of you as well then. Where is this 'dogmatic anti religious bias' that is troubling you so much? No one, as far as I can see, has been anti religious here. Just against some of the actions of one member of a particular religious sect and critical of the management of that sect for ignoring that negative aspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:06 AM

Jack Blandiver says: Here's one from one of her stand-up gigs in which she describes the spiritual benefits of withholding painkillers from the sick & dying.

The recording was hard to understand, but I didn't hear anything about withholding painkillers. I thought the woman was talking about trying to find some meaning in suffering - and her joke was an admission that it's not always possible to find meaning in suffering. I think your interpretation is rather distorted.

Throughout history, people have sought to find meaning in suffering. Viktor Frankl's Man's Search of Meaning addresses the subject very well. It's not a matter of inviting suffering - it's dealing with it as a reality when it's there. Many people in hospice care choose to limit use of opiates so they can be aware of what's happening to them, and so they can be conscious to take their leave of loved ones. Is there something wrong about that?

As far as I can tell, the allegations that Mother Teresa's staff refused to administer painkillers come almost exclusively from the Hitchens organization, and I haven't been able to figure out why Hitchens had such an axe to grind.

I've also seen statements that Mother Teresa's staff regularly administered painkillers. So I guess it's a she said/he said situation. No doubt, St. Hitchens must be right, because he's already been canonized and declared infallible by his minions and Mother Teresa hasn't been canonized yet.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:09 AM

"I suppose it's different in Ireland."
The facts speak for themselves Joe - over %90 of the primary schools are in the hands of a church that has proved that it is not fit to be put in charge of children - and children being turned away on the basis of their not having baptismal certificates - no alternatives offered other than to become Catholics.
t's no different to the "soupers" during the Famine who would only offer famine relief to those who changed their religion.
The church continues to show its unfitness in the way they are still defending as "scapegoats" leading churchmen who colluded in hiding the crimes of paedophile priests and allowed them to continue with their 'little weakness'.
Dspite what out little troll Lilo says, there is no 'anti-religious bias" - on the contrary, the bias is towards the non believer
Ireland is still claimed to be a Catholic country, despite the enormous fall-off of believers here, which is proof enough that itis time that religion is relegated to a choice rather than a legally enforced demand - ask any woman (including a rape victim) with an unviable pregnancy.
I don't condemn religion, I condemn the Church as a body for its behaviour - you have yet to acknowledge that fact.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:29 AM

Musket, I can't figure out what "boutique Christian" means, so I don't know what to think of the label.

As I've said, I'm not a great fan of Mother Teresa, but I think the Hitchens video attempting to smear her was grossly unfair. It presented very limited information couched in inflammatory language, in the language of propaganda. I couldn't figure out how Hitchens would know all this stuff, or why he would care. But hatred of Mother Teresa seems to have become a rallying cry for the militant atheists. I can't really see what they expect to accomplish by their campaign.

Seems to me that she was a well-intentioned person who tried to do her best with limited resources to care for the sick and dying of India. If somebody else could do it better, why didn't they? If she was doing something wrong, why didn't the Indian authorities prosecute her?

And dare I say I find it interesting that this campaign against Mother Teresa seems based in the United Kingdom, a nation not known to have been particularly benevolent toward the Indian subcontinent?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:40 AM

Yes, Jim Carroll, I do acknowledge that you "condemn the Church as a body for its behaviour."

Is that what I was supposed to acknowledge?

I also acknowledge that between five and ten percent of priests in Ireland were involved in sexual misconduct with children, and that was and is disgraceful. And yes, at least a few bishops covered up that sexual misconduct.

Anything else I'm supposed to acknowledge?

Please note, however, that those involved in misconduct were a minority.

And by the way, I don't think it's a good idea for the majority of schools in a nation to be controlled by a church. The Irish voted in favor of gay marriage. Why can't they vote to fix their schools if they need fixing?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:45 AM

"a nation not known to have been particularly benevolent toward the Indian subcontinent?"
Bit of a low shot Joe - condemnation of this con-lady has nothing to do with her race
Her ascendancy up "Jacob's Ladder" reads like Frodo's ascendancy up Doom Mountain - that aspect of religion really is mystical nonsense - if only Christians would adhere to their philosophical teachings and forget the comic-book stuff, the world really could be a better place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 06:55 AM

Jim, everyone who has an opinion which differs from yours is not a troll. I simply stated that I did not have a bad experience while attending a "religious based " school. I agree that parents should have a choice when sending children to a public school. But I do not agree that all those who attend religious schools are indoctrinated. I can speak of   That from personal experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:02 AM

Facts, Jim, facts. Surely, you should be able to come up with something more than a Hitchens propaganda movie to support your condemnation of this dead nun.

As for schools in Ireland, this Irish Times article speaks of a Dublin woman who can't get her kid into a school in her area, which has a Roman Catholic school, and Church of Ireland school, a multidenominational school, and a nondenominational school. I see her point - to a degree - but I do note that there is a nondenominational school in the neighborhood.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:14 AM

So, no one backing up the universal condemnation or anti religious bias comments then?

I have mentioned before, but it certainly does no harm doing so again, that my Grandfather was a Russian Orthodox priest and I was educated in Roman Catholic schools. I agree that it did me no harm (although some may disagree ;-) ) but I cannot agree that there was no indoctrination. Depends what you mean by the term of course and I would class having to say prayers in assembly every morning, attending 'retreats' and having to attend mass on a regular basis, as well compulsory religious education that comprised only of being told what Christianity is about, is indoctrination. Most us us left it behind, some did not.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:17 AM

This is the primary source for Hitchens' quote about Mother Teresa refusing painkillers:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673694923531

[The Lancet, Sep 17, 1994, Volume 344, Number 8925]

I don't have immediate access to that without paying the Elsevier price though I could probably wangle it given time. It hardly seems worth it to check on something that nobody has seriously contested.

People operating institutions the same way a few decades before ended up in the dock at Nuremberg.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:17 AM

"Hitchens propaganda movie t"
Wha???
Never heard of Hitchins Joe - Mother Teresa's behaviour has been a long running saga over here - might not have reached The New World Yet!
"but I do note that there is a nondenominational school in the neighborhood"
Probably lives in Dublin - just like the uK thy have everything so it doesn't matter too much what happens elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Blandiver (Astray)
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM

I think your interpretation is rather distorted.

It's in line with her general policy of equating pain & suffering with evidence of God's Love. To quote : "There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering." (From HERE)

The woman was clearly insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Stu
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:29 AM

"That's what it's all about, making the world just a little bit better."

No it's not, it's also about the search for fundamental truth, that's the basis upon which we construct our moral values and guide we decide which deeds are altruistic and which are not. The simple fact of discovering truth does itself make the world a better place; unarguable, empirical truth is what counts.

When it comes to miracles I personally will ignore the medieval superstitious nonsense and some old white man in a frock and bestow a sainthood of Stu on Remy Garde if he keeps Villa from the drop this season; that would be a bloody miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:44 AM

Saint restoration 

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 07:49 AM

Dunno Stu. He might get the Wednesday in the play offs if I see the error of my ways.

India eh? I wondered how long it would take to say anyone born in the 20th century after 1948 in The UK has no moral right to mention the less than savoury deeds of someone on the basis they were born in India.

I guess the cartoon I saw of a Native American telling Trump to get the fuck out of his country didn't hit home. You were an adult during racial segregation. Dont throw the empire shit around. You've had almost 250 years to evolve as a nation and the last I heard, there is a groundswell opinion to bomb Aladdin's pad. If I were Mickey Mouse, I'd be shitting myself.

No. The most "British" people I know spend their time in mosques and temples, both here and in India. Keep to the subject Joe.

Hitchens was an outspoken rant merchant who disguised some of his excellent points in shit, giving a get out of jail card to the organised people controllers masquerading as moral guides.

I don't knock faith. Yes, I question and deride a system that encourages less intelligent people to believe fairy stories as real and yes, these grunts can and do hold back society with their medieval nonsense. But most of the superstitious people I know use their association with irrational concepts as a metaphor and guide. Mother Teresa used the mumbo jumbo aspects as real, saying that suffering in this world makes it better in a world that doesn't exist later. Dangerous shit, and no, I haven't read Hitchens and his view of her. I have read some of his other stuff and both books remain unfinished on my Kindle.

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 08:28 AM

"[The main road was] now teeming with people carrying torches, pitchforks, and rakes, and one very confused man who apparently had mistaken the mob for a parade and was marching around with a Swedish flag." 
― Cuthbert Soup

Subject: RE: BS: Disrepute (Mother Teresa sainthood)
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM

As I have said many times, the opposition to religion here is not based on theology, but ideology.

The Church is hated by the "liberal left" as it represents(to them) a cornerstone of conservatism.
The "liberal left" believe all sorts of nonsense, the latest fad being that gender can be changed simply by saying it is so.
A man can insist on being called a woman, a chicken, or a tractor and according to the "liberal left" that is perfectly acceptable, no matter how deranged the behaviour may be.
Society no longer has any rules and as far as the "LL" are concerned the Church is the only opposition to their agenda.

The Churches opposition to homosexual "marriage" is the chief motivator for the abusive behaviour and ridicule we see from the usual suspects.

Joe, they don't really care about your beliefs. If the Church was to fall in line with their agenda, you wouldn't hear a peep from them.
In fact, it would be promoted as "progressive" in all the media.

To anyone who believes that society requires a degree of guidance and order, these people are a menace. When things go arse up they squirm back under their stones.