|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Mystery Guest Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:32 PM So do I assume that 'Guest from Sanity' is what it says on your birth certificate? Or are you perhaps just as anonymous as me??? I'm not quite sure how you interpret my only post on this thread as 'delusions of grandeur' I was merely making the point that there are a large number of performers out there who do have a well known political leaning, and contrary to your statement, this has no bearing on the size of audience they attract. Indeed, as I believe 'Guest Musket' (presumably also his real name) those people that do go to see them are probably attracted by their political leanings. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:47 PM De Gaulle was the figure head of The French resistance during the second world war, here are two of his speeches. June 18 1940 The leaders who, for many years past, have been at the head of the French armed forces have set up a government. Alleging the defeat of our armies, this government has entered into negotiations with the enemy with a view to bringing about a cessation of hostilities. It is quite true that we were, and still are, overwhelmed by enemy mechanised forces, both on the ground and in the air. It was the tanks, the planes, and the tactics of the Germans, far more than the fact that we were outnumbered, that forced our armies to retreat. It was the German tanks, planes, and tactics that provided the element of surprise which brought our leaders to their present plight. But has the last word been said? Must we abandon all hope? Is our defeat final and irremediable? To those questions I answer - No! Speaking in full knowledge of the facts, I ask you to believe me when I say that the cause of France is not lost. The very factors that brought about our defeat may one day lead us to victory. For, remember this, France does not stand alone. She is not isolated. Behind her is a vast empire, and she can make common cause with the British empire, which commands the seas and is continuing the struggle. Like England, she can draw unreservedly on the immense industrial resources of the United States. This war is not limited to our unfortunate country. The outcome of the struggle has not been decided by the battle of France. This is a world war. Mistakes have been made, there have been delays and untold suffering, but the fact remains that there still exists in the world everything we need to crush our enemies some day. Advertisement Today we are crushed by the sheer weight of mechanised force hurled against us, but we can still look to a future in which even greater mechanised force will bring us victory. The destiny of the world is at stake. I, General de Gaulle, now in London, call on all French officers and men who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, with or without their arms; I call on all engineers and skilled workmen from the armaments factories who are at present on British soil, or may be in the future, to get in touch with me. Whatever happens, the flame of French resistance must not and shall not die. Tomorrow I shall broadcast again from London. June 19 1940 Frenchmen must now be fully aware that all ordinary forms of authority have disappeared. Faced by the bewilderment of my countrymen, by the disintegration of a government in thrall to the enemy, by the fact that the institutions of my country are incapable, at the moment, of functioning, I, General de Gaulle, a French soldier and military leader, realise that I now speak for France. I n the name of France, I make the following solemn declaration: It is the bounden duty of all Frenchmen who still bear arms to continue the struggle. For them to lay down their arms, to evacuate any position of military importance, or agree to hand over any part of French territory, however small, to enemy control, would be a crime against our country. For the moment I refer particularly to French North Africa - to the integrity of French North Africa. Advertisement The Italian armistice is nothing but a clumsy trap. In the Africa of Clauzel, Bugeaud, Lyautey, and Noguès, honour and duty strictly enjoin that the French should refuse to carry out the conditions imposed by the enemy. The thought that the panic of Bordeaux could make itself felt across the sea is not to be borne. Soldiers of France, wherever you may be, arise! June 22 1940 The French government, after having asked for an armistice, now knows the conditions dictated by the enemy. The result of these conditions would be the complete demobilisation of the French land, sea, and air forces, the surrender of our weapons and the total occupation of French territory. The French government would come under German and Italian tutelage. It may therefore be said that this armistice would not only be a capitulation, but that it would also reduce the country to slavery. Now, a great many Frenchmen refuse to accept either capitulation or slavery, for reasons which are called: honour, common sense, and the higher interests of the country. I say honour, for France has undertaken not to lay down arms save in agreement with her allies. As long as the allies continue the war, her government has no right to surrender to the enemy. The Polish, Norwegian, Belgian, Netherlands, and Luxemburg governments, though driven from their territories, have thus interpreted their duty. I say common sense, for it is absurd to consider the struggle as lost. True, we have suffered a major defeat. We lost the battle of France through a faulty military system, mistakes in the conduct of operations, and the defeatist spirit shown by the government during recent battles. But we still have a vast empire, our fleet is intact, and we possess large sums in gold. We still have the gigantic potentialities of American industry. The same war conditions which caused us to be beaten by 5,000 planes and 6,000 tanks can tomorrow bring victory by means of 20,000 tanks and 20,000 planes. I say the higher interests of the country, for this is not a Franco-German war to be decided by a single battle. This is a world war. No one can foresee whether the neutral countries of today will not be at war tomorrow, or whether Germany's allies will always remain her allies. If the powers of freedom ultimately triumph over those of servitude, what will be the fate of a France which has submitted to the enemy? Honour, common sense, and the interests of the country require that all free Frenchmen, wherever they be, should continue the fight as best they may. It is therefore necessary to group the largest possible French force wherever this can be done. Everything which can be collected by way of French military elements and potentialities for armaments production must be organised wherever such elements exist. I, General de Gaulle, am undertaking this national task here in England. I call upon all French servicemen of the land, sea, and air forces; I call upon French engineers and skilled armaments workers who are on British soil, or have the means of getting here, to come and join me. I call upon the leaders, together with all soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the French land, sea, and air forces, wherever they may now be, to get in touch with me. I call upon all Frenchmen who want to remain free to listen to my voice and follow me. Long live free France in honour and independence! |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM No hatred of any countries, goddammit. Just of that loathsome ungrateful dictatorial lowlife louse Charles De Gaulle. Well he was safely dead before Britain was in the EEC/EU. So why is he relevant to whether the UK should stay in it? You seem to see a connection, and since you're also saying it isn't his nationality, what is it? |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:02 PM "I fail to understand how any 'folk' singer coud be politically Conservative when there are 55,000 homeless people in England alone." Could be that those "folkies" of right-wing inclination are reluctant to display their predilections in public, knowing that they'd almost certainly make themselves rather unpopular, but I agree with your sentiment. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:53 PM Having a good rant is one thing. Slagging off Norman Lamont between songs is entirely another, and no, I have no time for Norman Lamont, and yes, it was a good few years ago! Far from being the only instance I can bring to mind. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,# Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:50 PM I fail to understand how any 'folk' singer coud be politically Conservative when there are 55,000 homeless people in England alone. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:41 PM No hatred of any countries, goddammit. Just of that loathsome ungrateful dictatorial lowlife louse Charles De Gaulle. Can't you get that into your stupid thick ☠s?!. What's the matter with you all! Or do you think he was just a benign old boyo who loved us all really, despite making a career of kicking us -- his erstwhile saviours & refuge -- in the teeth just to show he could & didn't owe anything to anybody coz he was his own stinking self with the upper hand now. --- 30 or so years ago, even in the memories of you infants, not any bloody 70+. Oh wotz the bloody use! Once Catters get their teeth into a bone |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM There was a reason I picked on Wagner above, rather than any other. So, what have I learned on this thread? You need to distinguish between the person and the persona. Or put another way, you wouldn't want to discuss philosophy with Jordan but would you kick her out of bed? (Just a little analogy to get the self righteous happily indignant.) Despite all the evidence being to the contrary, Billy Connolly seems to have been a building labourer instead of the ship yard welder he really was. My dismay last year over the rather repugnant views Michael is capable of inflicting seems to be rather widely shared now. Do keep up. Folk singers are first and foremost entertainers. It gives me great pleasure to listen to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan and let the rants go in one ear and out the other. Roy Bailey double so. I'm off to a folk club now. I'll sing about nobbing and unrequited nobbing. That'll be safe. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:28 PM There was a reason I picked on Wagner above, rather than any other. So, what have I learned on this thread? You need to distinguish between the person and the persona. Or put another way, you wouldn't want to discuss philosophy with Jordan but would you kick her out of bed? (Just a little analogy to get the self righteous happily indignant.) Despite all the evidence being to the contrary, Billy Connolly seems to have been a building labourer instead of the ship yard welder he really was. My dismay last year over the rather repugnant views Michael is capable of inflicting seems to be rather widely shared now. Do keep up. Folk singers are first and foremost entertainers. It gives me great pleasure to listen to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan and let the rants go in one ear and out the other. Roy Bailey double so. I'm off to a folk club now. I'll sing about nobbing and unrequited nobbing. That'll be safe. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Steve Shaw Date: 06 Jan 16 - 02:14 PM It's always been possible to make political points via music, particularly but not exclusively via vocal music. It's been done with opera for hundreds of years, often forcefully. There's the clue. You can do it with stories and narratives about the lives of people. You don't need to patronise the audience with explicit political opinions, either in the music or between the pieces. In fact, as some posters have said here, you're severely at risk of alienating even the people who agree with you if you do that. I might want to hear about trade union rights, the Clearances, Thatcher's atrocities, abortion and the hunger strikers, even God, as folk music is about real people. But I don't want to be nursing my pint with the feeling that I'm being preached at or having my emotions tendentiously toyed with. There's a clear distinction. Some of my very favourite singers have occasionally had me indulging in involuntary buttock-clenching on occasion. To me, it's a mark overstepped. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Will Fly Date: 06 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM What on earth can you perceive as xenophobic or Little·Englander-ish in the rehearsal of these indisputable facts? Perhaps the fact that WW2 ended 70 years ago - and much has happened in that time. To retain such a hatred of two countries (is that just the governments or the complete populations of those countries, by the way?)does seem very xenophobic to me - and unworthy of one whom I had always respected for clarity of argument and logical thought. Very sad indeed. My first and last post on yet another thread which has descended into insult and petty-mindedness. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jan 16 - 12:06 PM Britain ought to leave the UK because of de Gaulle, who died three years before Britain joined it? Does this go along with an official UKIP policy that Joan of Arc had it coming? |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 11:08 AM Sorry you are saddened Vic -- one of those on here whose posts I generally find worth reading for intellectual content. But the facts of the matter are that De Gaulle was given refuge here when his country was conquered; did enjoy his war in safety here under our auspices; was handed his country back, which we & our allies had liberated, to become its President; and did thank us by kicking us in the teeth over Maastricht, having made common cause against us with our mutual former foe. What on earth can you perceive as xenophobic or Little·Englander-ish in the rehearsal of these indisputable facts? Or have you some other fantasy-version of your own of the facts of the matter? Thanks anyhow for your kind words about my former writings. Regards ≈Michael≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:53 AM Musket, your post was so 'off the wall' that it misses the point, and makes none. Not even worthy of a reply. GfS |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,The fatuous popgun Date: 06 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM Nurse! He's out of bed again! |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM I suppose the old adage of the older you get, the more intolerant you get applies here. By that reckoning..... Nice to see Goofus thinking Billy Bragg, John Tams and Jez Lowe go to "folk gatherings" of a uniform group, whatever. There was me thinking they are internationally renowned singer songwriters whose material is well known to those who buy tickets for their concerts. It's a bit like going to Covent Garden for The Ring Cycle and saying "I hope it isn't too long, I've left a joint in the oven." 😂😂 |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:53 AM the fatuous Popgun treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung I will read the staements of others, allow them their opinions and give my own. I will analyse their statements in my replies and hope that they will do the same with my comments..... but when a thread descends to slimy insults, I, and I'm sure others, will always leave. Exeunt.... |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:41 AM 'Guest': "From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:55 PM "Any singer, or musician, who jumps out and makes political identity, either on the 'right' or 'left' can count on losing half their audiences" Try telling that to John Tams, Jez Lowe, Billy Bragg........" I think Joe Offer re-stated my very point: Joe Offer, 05 Jan 16 - 10:53 PM "Maybe it shouldn't matter, HiLo, but I think it does. I have heard comments from people who say they feel uncomfortable at folk gatherings because the group is too uniformly liberal, and remarks are made that make them feel excluded - so they stay away." Now 'mystery Guest', Get off your delusions of grandeur! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:36 AM I quote from two recent posts:- " The necessity to break links with the oppressive EU, whose two main members, France & Germany, hate one another, but are at one solely in their hatred of us, the UK, because we beat one of them in WW2 after the other had so disgracefully chickened out, is a perfectly rational stance to take, and has no racist overtone whatsoever. You should be ashamed of being taken in by the unworthy propaganda, which aims to undermine such an impulse by purporting to link the party with the agenda of supporting this policy with fascist oppression. I am surprised at you." and "I think that this forced alliance with our former enemy & her contemptible victim [hands up if you thought that guy in the Simpsons' "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a joke], both of whom still have it in for us because we won & they didn't, is not to our advantage to maintain. I say again, you have fallen victims to unworthy propaganda of those with a business agenda they think might be marred by any decent prideful independence. I suppose you thought that disgusting 2-faced heap of treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung De Gaulle was our ally, didn't you?" Now, I know who made these statements, but if I didn't know, I would have surmised that these were the comments of a small-minded xenophobic Little Englander and not those of an ex-broadsheet journalist whose writings in newspapers of both the left and right, I have admired on a range of subjects including folk music.... and this from a man who claims his opinions are middle-of-the-road. I am saddened. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:28 AM Vic & Jack are one thing. But the fatuous Popgun, in the words of the great Jane Austen [Sense & Sensibility] "does not deserve the compliment of rational opposition". |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jan 16 - 09:00 AM UKIP are just a party of extreme right bigots without the courage of their conviction to join English Defence League or BNP. They have no policies. They see Europe as a bogey man without clarifying their stance. The one thing you can say in their favour is that whilst ever obnoxious bigots are saying EU membership is a bad thing, the respectable majority of people will listen to the pro EU lobby. There you are. You wanted a right wing folk singer. Well Michael claims to be a singer. He is certainly right wing, what with showing his support for UKIP, trying to differentiate those thugs from other thugs. I'm not surprised myself. A while ago, when he was denigrating Muslims, I asked if that included the millions of law abiding people who serve their communities. His reply? "The corner shop owner may be ok but he might have a nephew." No need to discuss the ins and outs of Peter Bellamy. We have a self confessed real live one here Pathetic. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:59 AM Sorry, Vic & Jack; but that is just not how I perceive UKIP. I don't think I am a white xenophobe because I think that this forced alliance with our former enemy & her contemptible victim [hands up if you thought that guy in the Simpsons' "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" a joke], both of whom still have it in for us because we won & they didn't, is not to our advantage to maintain. I say again, you have fallen victims to unworthy propaganda of those with a business agenda they think might be marred by any decent prideful independence. I suppose you thought that disgusting 2-faced heap of treacherous ungrateful pigs·dung De Gaulle was our ally, didn't you? ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jan 16 - 08:07 AM UKIP, the BNP and the EDL are one organization, appealing to the same constituency of white xenophobes, with membership moving to and fro between different subsections as opportunity and necessity dictate. Jobbik is rather more honest - the parliamentarians and the street thugs carry the same political label. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM On 04 Jan 16 - 04:01 AM Mike posted:- " I guess you can include me in as MOR inclined more to right than left." I must say that his post at 06 Jan 16 - 07:12 AM makes him sound much more right-inclined than the above claim. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: akenaton Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM I agree M, I concur with several UKIP policies, one being absenting ourselves from the EU and would describe myself as a socialist politically. I confusion over political and social issues continues |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:12 AM ESSENTIAL [I fear] drift -- Jack: UKIP is in no way comparable to or cognate with the two extreme rightwing organisations with which you see fit to bracket it, you know. No way whatsoever! The necessity to break links with the oppressive EU, whose two main members, France & Germany, hate one another, but are at one solely in their hatred of us, the UK, because we beat one of them in WW2 after the other had so disgracefully chickened out, is a perfectly rational stance to take, and has no racist overtone whatsoever. You should be ashamed of being taken in by the unworthy propaganda, which aims to undermine such an impulse by purporting to link the party with the agenda of supporting this policy with fascist oppression. I am surprised at you. ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 06 Jan 16 - 07:06 AM "I like listening to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan but regardless of whether I support, oppose, like or dislike his overt political overtone, I still think it spoils the musical talent he can offer." I don't mind when it is delivered in the song - but when singers start preaching their view for long periods between songs it can be waring - even when you agree with them. And the trouble is in a small venue it can then turn into a verbal spat if even just one person in the audience challenges them and most people pay to hear the music not a political debate. That has happened on two occasions at our club. Once with Dick and once with Rory McLeod. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:47 AM ...and of course, there have been attempts from the extreme right to co-opt folk music for their own propaganda. Folk music still hasn't recovered from what Hitler did to it in Germany. What is happening at the moment in Hungary is pretty depressing. The present urban trad music scene in Hungary would not exist without the work of Bartok and Kodaly, both of whom were on the far left (they were in the culture administration of Bela Kun's socialist republic of 1919) - and Bartok particularly was a consistent internationalist with absolutely no time for nationalist appropriations of folk culture. And the reason so many Hungarian folkies are so good at it is because they've been through the music education system created by Kodaly under the Communists, which is the most effective the world has ever seen. I suspect most Hungarian folkies still are somewhere on the left, but there is now a significant fraction of them who support FIDESZ, which is roughly like Cameron's Tories (and similarly tolerant of and symbiotic with the racist far right - Jobbik in Hungary roughly corresponding to UKIP/BNP/EDL in the UK). I haven't figured out what the FIDESZ folkies' attitude to Gypsies is. For a while, the folk scene was a dependable ally of the Gypsies in Hungary and Romania and helped nurture a revival of the autonomous Gypsy culture (like the relationship between the UK folk revival and the Travellers, but less amateurish). How many of them still relate positively to the Gypsies I don't know (or whether many of them still share Bartok's interest in the Muslim culture underlying much of the former Ottoman Empire). I will attempt to find out when I go back there this summer. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:14 AM Is GUEST of 5.47 the same person as GUEST of 6.06 or not? I do wish they'd go back to banning unidentified Guest posts, if only becoz they are so intolerably bloody CONFUSING! SIGNED as the identifiable work of ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM The symbiotic relationship between those who had a profession based around folk music and those who provided the backbone of folk clubs was and in part still is a joy. Serendipity is the best way to describe it. Folk is a broad church. (Mosque / temple / synagogue / pub / football ground) and as in any arena, especially where artistry has a place, squabbles can be taken out of context. Clubs are largely singarounds these days, as much to do with those of us who used to run clubs not wanting to get our financial fingers burned as any other reason and "turns" are increasingly having to broaden their appeal on the small theatre / arts centre circuit. On that note, being political is less popular. I have seen Martin Simpson twice in recent months. Once in a very much folk club venue and once at a theatre. His act was more social comment orientated in the club and more general music in the theatre. So the point of "politically conservative" for me includes having to reference the person or the persona? |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM It was also mentioned in those odd, strange links which don't show up on all systems: mine eg just shows them as funny rectangles with squiggles in. Have asked before whether anyone can explain this phenomenon; certainly can't understand it myself. Perhaps they won't work on an ? ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: akenaton Date: 06 Jan 16 - 06:06 AM "Just to put the record straight. He wanted The Humblebums to carry on doing folk. Rafferty wished to expand his musical horizons and encouraged Connolly to use his natural comedy approach to attract a larger audience spectrum as a solo player." I knew Billy and Tam,(who like myself worked in the building trade), long before Gerry joined. they never "did folk", they did a little bluegrass interspersed with comedy, which gradually took over. Gerry changed the group completely, I was in the audience on his introduction...he did a few of his own songs and I was blown away, became a lifelong fan, have every record he ever made, but he was from a different genre. Most of the audience wanted the old Billy and Tam, the footstompin' the raucus laughter, the observational Glasgow comedy. Tam was ditched and he told me later that he had gone back to chippying......the rest is history. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM Err. Look up to "Guest Musket" a few posts up. He has mentioned it Vic. Really? Musket has mentioned the attacks on folk enthusiasts by what the BNP liked to call their "attack dogs"? Could you link to the date and time of the actual post where he makes this point? |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: akenaton Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:52 AM The attacks against your wife and yourself are indeed disgraceful Vic, I had no involvement with the folk scene at that time, but remember it being mentioned here on Mudcat. I could never understand why these people thought they could influence the members of present day folk clubs, who are by and large inclined to the left. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:47 AM Err. Look up to "Guest Musket" a few posts up. He has mentioned it Vic. I too was concerned over the nationalist link up with traditional folk songs. Although to be fair, a person of such views might point out they aren't necessarily the domain of left wing views either. I like listening to the voice and guitar of Dick Gaughan but regardless of whether I support, oppose, like or dislike his overt political overtone, I still think it spoils the musical talent he can offer. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: akenaton Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:41 AM I have never read any of Billy's biography, but I can assure you that the chorus singing groups who composed the backbone of "the revival", were looked upon with derision by those destined for "bigger things". In the beginning, the huge audiences which attended folk clubs, came for the community singing aspect.....that was what provided the magic, the emotion, the participation. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:34 AM I've been waiting for someone else to mention this thinking that it was bound to come up soon..... but it hasn't, so here goes. The attempts by the BNP to infiltrate folk music with their thinking that anyone interested in British traditions would also be sympathetic to an extreme racist British nationalism happened in fairly recent times. Those, including myself, who strongly opposed this were subject to a scurrilous vilification on social media. For example, I was subject to identity theft of my emails and Facebook and Mudcat postings and PMs, had to see hideous photoshopped photos of my wife posted on the internet and threats that their thugs would descend on meetings of the folk club I ran. Fortunately, folk music activists closed ranks and Folk Against Fascism ran a concerted campaign to see them off.... but in the short run it was very threatening and upsetting. Compared with that, the efforts of the likes of Pete Seeger, Ewan MacColl and Billy Bragg trying to persuade their audiences from the stage of the evils of capitalism seems pretty benign. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: akenaton Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:30 AM Well, I suppose "religious" songs are more ...of the people...than ones promoting twenty first century socialism....or capitalism. Many of the oldest ballads contain references to the supernatural. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:27 AM Billy Connolly (note spelling) waxes lyrically in his wife's biographies over his love of traditional folk. His biggest regret lately is that his advancing Parkinson's Disease precludes his love of playing banjo and singing. Just to put the record straight. He wanted The Humblebums to carry on doing folk. Rafferty wished to expand his musical horizons and encouraged Connolly to use his natural comedy approach to attract a larger audience spectrum as a solo player. You do talk some rubbish Akenaton. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:14 AM Fuck me, folk singers are wedded to capitalist ideas now. Presumably wedded to capitalism of the opposite gender eh? 😂😂😂 |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: akenaton Date: 06 Jan 16 - 05:05 AM I think you are absolutely correct M. Modern "contemporary folk" is agony to listen to unless one is a dedicated ideologue....It started when the left started adopting the popular folkies of the sixties as banner carriers for the revolution, especially Dylan. How upset they were when these egoists refused to be compartmentalised. Most modern folksingers are just as wedded to aspirational capitalism as any political conservative. Radicals are few and far between, I assisted in running one of the largest folk clubs in Scotland in the sixties, and could number radicals on the fingers of one hand. I have conversed with all the "big names" from that time in Scotland and some from England.....their driving force was almost always self promotion..... and some were musical geniuses like Gerry Rafferty, some used the popularity of a folk scene which they despised (singing pullovers), to advance a career in show business.....like Billy Connelly. The great Alex Campbell was another who saw his music as a job of work...a transient worker, driven by the need to provide a living for himself rather than any political conviction. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:49 AM Joe: "The leftists don't seem to use traditional music for propaganda..." Seeger disagreed with you. He was of the opinion ALL songs are propaganda of one sort or another (tho the logic was a bit stretched as I recall) and all folk songs are political in nature. He was just very, very smooth at misdirecting the introductions. Unless you were there and heard the "party line" that came between the songs, the playlist itself seemed fairly apolitical. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:12 AM And would it be unreasonable to point out the great favour shown by Seegers Pete & Peggy to a particular traditional song, The House Carpenter, which tells of the infidelity of the wife of the eponymous working man, seduced by her former lover, a ship's captain who could have married a king's daughter, one undeniably of the officer class? A version omitting the supernatural element present in earlier variants, but instead foregrounding these class elements {"If you could have married a king's daughter ... I've lately been married to a house carpenter, And I think he's a nice young man!"} ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 04:00 AM And consider the mix of traditional and contemporary songs which would appear in 'Sing Out', & its UK equivalent 'Sing' {edited by my good [but certainly Marxist] friend, the late Eric Winter}. Not all the traditional songs, certainly, would be appropriate to the 'class struggle' & such; but I think you will find that a fair proportion would be such as, eg The Durham Strike and so forth; or mine-disaster songs like The Blantyre Explosion. All part of the rich tapestry of folklore, of course; but capable of tendentious selection even so, perhaps? |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:54 AM Still disagree, Joe. See if you can get hold of copies of those two collections of TRADITIONAL industrial songs which I named above — tho I fear they might not be too easy to come by at this time of day. But, take my word for it: 'Traditional' I repeat; not written by MacColl or Lloyd themselves, but carefully selected to fulfil an agenda: the avowedly Marxist one of the publishers, the Workers Music Assocn. {Nice to chat with you, as ever. Have a good year!} ≈M≈ |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:44 AM Hi, Michael - No question that Pete Seeger had an agenda. Note what I said: The leftists don't seem to use traditional music for propaganda - they write their own songs in the "folk genre." Same with MacColl. I don't think he or Seeger used traditional songs to promote their political agenda, but they certainly wrote lots of songs to support their agenda. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: GUEST,Musket Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:43 AM Push your bed up to the wall, then it doesn't matter which side you are on. The gutter press, a few years ago, tried to find some link between folk artistes and the fact that a far right neo Nazi political party sang "John Barleycorn" at their conferences and, as with Marmite, slipped in their leader's speech an admiration for Martin Carthy. Notwithstanding Marmite had the financial muscle to sue them, the unfortunate plug for Martin also died down. But.. Imagine your introduction to folk had been attending their conference. What impression would you have? A band I occasionally played with many moons ago once wondered if traditional songs in the repertoire that glorified fox hunting should be dropped. All rather depressing and pc. Mind you, following on from Joe Offer's point, there are a couple of men who drop in at singarounds locally who sing religious songs. You'd be surprised how many people, some of whom are church goers, who feel it inappropriate. Me? My glass seems to be just about empty and needing a trip to the bar when they start. I doubt even The Archbishop of Canterbury could sit and listen to new words applied to a Neil Young song... Considering one such venue is 200 yds from the birthplace of Charles Wesley, you'd have thought at least they could use the excuse of local songwriting hero if they must share their irritating joy. |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:20 AM Whiche side are you on? Which side are you on! |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:19 AM And did you really never perceive any sort of agenda in the repertoire and approach of Pete Seeger? Come, now... |
|
Subject: RE: Folk Singers who are Politically Conservative From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 16 - 03:17 AM Not sure about that, tho, Joe. Think of the implications behind songbooks like Ewan's Shuttle·&·Cage & Lloyd's Coaldust·Ballads. Excellent, indispensable books that singers of my generation could hardly do without; but with a clear tendentiousness of selection & approach notwithstanding. Published, at that, by the explicitly & self-avowedly Marxist Workers' Music Association. ≈Michael≈ |
| Share Thread: |
