BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults

Subject: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:17 AM

I haven't seen this angle mentioned. But given the likely global impact of the Zika virus:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35427493

there is an impending clash between women and the state in places like Nicaragua where an anti-abortionist cult controls the government. Tens of thousands of women will know they're doomed to spend their lives cleaning up after children with half a brain if they do what their local shaman says.

Any pointers in local media to how this will play out?

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:23 PM

I heard something on NPR about this... apparently the virus is active in places where most pregnancies are unplanned and where women have no options to terminate (the program said interrupt, but no, it's terminate) an unwanted pregnancy.
Yikes.
Nothing I know of in local media because I am not local.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 12:39 PM

npr blicky

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:24 PM

Good point Jack

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:29 PM

The pictures in the media of microcephalic babies make them look sorta cute and cuddly albeit weird. They may not stay that way, or end up like the entertaining pinheads in "Freaks", either. I had a summer job as a student looking after permanently institutionalized mental patients. We had two severe microcephalics, both totally mute and with no understanding of anything said or gestured to them. One of them spent most of his time trying to destroy the building with his teeth, in the course of which he'd managed to rip off a strip of solid wood windowsill as thick as a broomstick and a few feet long. The other had had his front teeth removed after he'd tried to bite a paraplegic kid's penis off and nearly succeeded.

Multiply that thousands of times from the combined effects of virus and religion and imagine how a mother with access to only Third World resources might deal with it.

People are going to put two and two together and realize that Jesus is the god of the zombie apocalypse.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:08 PM

No, Donald Trump is the god of the zombie apocalypse.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:21 PM

Well we heard last week that this disease is likely to spread rapidly to the US. The first thought in my cynical little mind was that that explains why we're getting wall-to-wall, panic-stricken mass coverage. I seem to recall that the devasting spread of HIV in Africa got drip-drip coverage at best. Still, if money gets ploughed into fighting this disease, I suppose that some good will come out of it. It's hard to know what can be done in those countries dominated by anti-abortion cults if the worst happens. There's an awful lot of Catholicity in the Americas, even in the more liberal countries. Can't see that being much help.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 08:24 PM

"Devastating". My eyesight is deteriating. I'd better see the opticologist tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:15 AM

"Catholicity" isn't the only opponent to abortion. Evangelical Protestants are equally foaming about it. You should read some of the comments in the nexus between Unionists in Northern Ireland and TeaPartyists in Middle America. Here's the new leader of Northern Ireland, Arlene Foster.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:16 AM

...women will know they're doomed to spend their lives cleaning up after children with half a brain if they do what their local shaman says.

People are going to put two and two together and realize that Jesus is the god of the zombie apocalypse.

There's an awful lot of Catholicity in the Americas, even in the more liberal countries. Can't see that being much help.

You know, some people can discuss issues without putting labels on people and assuming all people with that label will act the same. It makes for far more fruitful discussion when people discuss issues, not labels.

Many Catholics and Christians and many who practice Shamanism, have thinking different from what the above statements would lead one to believe. And if one wishes to accomplish something among people of various cultures and belief systems, that is possible only if one acknowledges and respects those cultures and belief systems. Address issues, not stereotypes.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:44 AM

Joe Offer: "Address issues, not stereotypes."

They do that...and then accuse OTHERS of being bigots!!!
....without recognizing their own tactics!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Thompson
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:58 AM

Keeping a count of how many posts on abortion are by known men and how many by known women ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 05:46 AM

All right, Joe. Let's be a little more explicit then. I somehow can't see all the Catholics (and many other Christians - OK, Thompson?) in the Americas suddenly campaigning for a reversal in all those illiberal anti-abortion laws in order to help what could be thousands of women carrying severely disabled babies. The campaigning will be done by someone else and there will be the dragging of feet and the invocation of God's will. Donald Trump will blame the Mexicans for bringing the virus to the US. Sorry about the cynicism. If I'm wrong, there will be mucho consuming of sombreros in my house.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:07 AM

This thread was started with the intention of attacking religion.
This new epidemic is dreadful, as is the attempt to use it to demonise people of faith.

The important thing is to find an antidote to the disease before it spreads across the globe.

As far as I understand it is not spread by any sort of behaviour, but by an insect, so a study of demographics is going to be of no use in halting it.

The question of whether or not to abort all babies with this condition is very complicated indeed and not to used as a battering ram to make political points.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:13 AM

So here's the problem, Joe. From Time:

In all of Central and South America, there are only three countries where abortion is broadly legal (those countries are Uraguay, Guyana, and French Guiana.) Everywhere else in the region, abortion is only allowed in cases of rape or incest or if the life of the mother is at risk, depending on the country. Only Mexico, Colombia, and Panama allow mothers to terminate pregnancies because of a fetal impairment...

...And some countries, like El Salvador, forbid abortion in all cases, even when the mother has been raped or her life is at stake. Despite the public health recommendations to avoid pregnancy, deputy health minister Eduardo Espinoza told Buzzfeed News that the government will have to uphold the anti-abortion laws, "whether we like it or not," but noted the public health crisis may trigger a debate that could revise the law. But experts seem skeptical that the anti-abortion laws, which have been repeatedly passed by mostly-male governments in Catholic countries, will be changed any time soon...

...Even for women who aren't already pregnant, contraception is hard to come by in these countries. According to the World Health Organization, 18% of births in Latin America are to teenage mothers, and Amnesty International estimates that more than 50% of the pregnancies in the region are unplanned. "They don't have access to information, they don't have access to contraception, and they don't have access to the option to terminate a pregnancy," Demant says, noting that contraceptive use among Latin American women is among the lowest in the world, and that emergency contraception is often expensive and difficult to access, if not illegal.

If this turns into the humanitarian disaster that we all dearly hope it won't, a very large finger will be pointing at the Catholic Church, which rules the roost in much of Central and South America and which preaches against both contraception and abortion and which discourages real sex education (the sort that leaves morals at the door and eschews ludicrous notions such as abstinence). Let's all hope it doesn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:20 AM

Well no-one here is attempting to demonise people of faith. As for attacking religion, well that is always justified and there isn't anywhere near enough of it. But I for one do not want to have the arrival into the world of thousands of deformed babies for a stick to beat religion with. Let's all hope it doesn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:23 AM

In the last discussion we had concerning abortion, most said that the decision should be left entirely up to the mother in all cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM

And that has exactly what to do with this discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:58 AM

Movement for change in Brazil:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35435684

but two months to submit a petition to the supreme court? There are doubtless reasons for that, but something has gone wrong if it takes that long.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:47 AM

Come on Steve....don't act stupid    2+2 =.........remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 12:10 PM

The Vatican's angle on the story:

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/01/25/who_warns_of_risk_of_zika_virus_in_the_americas/1203543

The fact that they've made no comment either way about the implications for abortion policy is somewhat encouraging - and fairly consistent with the way Francis has tended to play contentious issues. If he can persuade the Latin American hierarchy to just STFU and leave social policy to the state, that would be the best possible outcome, though it may not be a very likely one.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 12:14 PM

Can anybody tell me what akenaton is waffling on about? Preferably not akenaton?

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 01:53 PM

They are mobilizing the army against standing water, I'm all in favor.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:21 PM

Steve Shaw: "Well no-one here is attempting to demonise people of faith. As for attacking religion, well that is always justified and there isn't anywhere near enough of it."

It falls into the same category as attacking someone for their skin color!!
Try...just try, to stop being a bigot, and hiding behind your 'political persuasion' excuse to do it!!

That being said, some people CAN distinguish between spirituality and religion, just like some people can distinguish between liberals and 'so-called liberals'.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:25 PM

Well, Guffers, as ever you have this arse about face. On the whole, religion is a sort of elective thang, though I know the buggers make it damned hard for you to leave the club. On the other hand, unless you're Michael Jackson you're a bit stuck with your skin colour. If you know what I mean, which you almost certainly don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:42 PM

I've heard very rational discussions of both abortion and the Zika virus on National Public Radio in the U.S. over the last couple of weeks. I was pleased and surprised that there was no mention of religion in the discussion - it just presented the issues logically without referring to any groups doing this or that.

The problem with pointing fingers at groups, is that you then force all members of that group into the the "enemy" box. Even if they agree with you on the issue, members of that group will have a hard time forming an alliance with you, because you have attacked and excluded them.

If you really want to make progress on an issue, then attack the issue rationally. Don't attack your potential allies.

In today's NPR presentation on the Zika virus in Brazil, it was stated that a total of fewer than ten microcephalic babies have been born there, while there are 8,000 babies born in Brazil every day. The Zika virus is a serious concern, but so far it has done little damage.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:43 AM

In today's NPR presentation on the Zika virus in Brazil, it was stated that a total of fewer than ten microcephalic babies have been born there,

The World Health Organization's estimate of additional microcephalic births is somewhere near 4,000. Whoever NPR gave their mike to was a bullshit artist.

There are recent suggestions that the figure has been slightly overstated by the diagnostic methods used, but also that the virus may be causing cases of brain damage which are not reflected in decreased cranium size, so the casualty count may well be even higher.

Factors that make this a social catastrophe:

1. the virus
2. the mosquito vectors
3. the anti-abortion cult
4. the class system.

1: we aren't going to get any medical technology that affects the virus for years.

2: some measures against the mosquitoes are feasible and desirable, but the more drastically effective they are the worse the consequential environmental damage.

3: there are no excuses for an organization abusing its power so as to waste women's lives dealing with miserable pieces of human wreckage that should never been born. The shits responsible for the oppressive anti-women legislation on the books in most of Latin America are never going to be allies of most of the human race, and attacking them is every bit as rational as killing mosquito wrigglers in the places where they pose most risk.

4: the class inequalities pervasive in Catholic countries invariably mean that "morality" is only for the poor. The elite will never suffer the consequences. Obliterating the system that imposes that distinction is going to take longer than dealing with the virus.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:19 AM

Fingers are not quite being pointed as yet. The Church did not invent the virus or the mosquito. But the Church in the areas concerned does have massive influence. But by the Church's fruits in the coming months shall we know it. You're being watched, deservedly so. Let's hope the right thing is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:30 AM

"The Church did not invent the virus or the mosquito."

But God did.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:53 AM

Ah, but did he evolve them? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:30 AM

This report seems to indicate that 35 cases of microcephaly were reported in Brazil in 2015, but it's unclear.

This NPR report speaks of thousands of cases in Brazil, but only a few were Zika-related.

And then there's the question whether the appropriate cure in every case is abortion. I'd still contend that open discussion of the entire issue is necessary, without finger-pointing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:00 PM

I keep trying to tell you, Joe, no-one is finger-pointing.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:00 PM

If you know the bible at all you will know there was no death or suffering before the fall , so if it was there at the beginning it had a benign purpose. I know you don't believe that, but since you mentioned it........

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:18 PM

Yeah, Peter, but the existence of mosquitoes is a serious test of my faith....

Another test of my faith is when Steve claims he's not finger-pointing and the evidence says otherwise...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:21 PM

Now that is proper irony ......Jim!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:30 PM

What evidence, Joe? Let me assure you that a positive response from the Catholic Church to the issue of victims of the virus potentially urgently needing abortions will get a very positive reaction from me. Neurosis will get you nowhere. Stop being so bloody belligerent.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:05 PM

Joe, I was replying to stu and Steve , but on the emotional level, suffering, whether via Mosquitos or otherwise, is a challenge to faith, even to creation believers , though believing the biblical account of its beginning.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:22 PM

Well, to give them credit, at least in Brazil they do seem to be doing something positive, i.e. nothing. Whether this is a deliberate decision we don't know yet.

The possibility of cases of brain injury that are not detectable with a tape measure is the most worrying development. The only reliable test for viral exposure is by using PCR, which is way too expensive, and even that could only be a preliminary screening test to show the mother had had an an infection that might have damaged the foetus, not that the foetus definitely was damaged.

The Brazilian study Joe cited describes 35 cases that the researchers investigated in detail. Of course they didn't follow up every case in the country, and their summary says:

historical birth prevalence of microcephaly in Brazil, approximately 0.5 cases per 10,000 live births, calculated from birth certificates, was lower than expected estimates of 1–2 cases per 10,000 live births (9), which might indicate general underascertainment of microcephaly in Brazil. However, during the second half of 2015 alone, >3,000 suspected cases of microcephaly (approximately 20 cases per 10,000 live births) were reported to the MoH through the special notification protocol, suggesting a sharp increase in birth prevalence.

That is, Zika seems to have increased the prevalence of microcephaly by a factor of 10 to 20 (and that's just the damage detectable with a tape measure).

Here are the World Health Organization figures:

http://www.who.int/csr/don/8-january-2016-brazil-microcephaly/en/

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM

With the demise of "Team Musket", the hate quotient has diminished.
Soon we will be able to discuss all subjects as adults.

There are only about three or four people left who like to act as the Mudcat Thought Police.......the strange thing is, that they all claim to be liberals?

When I started using "liberals", I was referring to the people like those mentioned by Joe above.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:55 AM

"...but on the emotional level, suffering, whether via Mosquitos or otherwise, is a challenge to faith, even to creation believers.."

Well it certainly must be, though I'm sure you can concoct a tortuous explanation around it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:52 AM

The reolution of that challenge believed by most anti-abortion cultists is pretty simple and logical.

If you have enough money you afford to either buy an abortion regardless of what the law says, or you can pay a peon to spend her life taking the bites and punches and cleaning up the excreta from whatever you give birth to.

And having that much money means God loves you.

Whereas if you don't have enough wealth to ignore the law, God obviously hates you enough to insist that you follow it. You're probably damned anyway.

(Dunno what Catholics call that - it's the "prosperity gospel" in Protestantism. There's probably an Islamic name for it as adapted to the Saudi elite, too).

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:40 AM

Yes, those rich Saudis are notorious for the massive piss-ups in their palaces as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:10 AM

"........from whatever you give birth to.."      I remember awhile ago ,Dawkins posted on social media devaluing the disabled and there was such a media storm he apologised..... of sorts.   Of course , jim is small fry, so hardly anyone will notice his inhumanity to fellow man.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:39 AM

You volunteering to adopt a microcephalic baby, then?

This is only incidentally about Catholicism. The state religion in most of Latin America is moneyed hypocrisy, and the fact that its ceremonies involve a lot of incense and statues of the BVM is rather incidental. But it does at present use Christian doctrines as a tool of repression, so discrediting those doctrines can only help, at least in the short term until the wealthy come up with some other ideological tool for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:40 PM

Chapter and verse on that, please, pete. As it stands, it's an unsupported accusation, and we have to bear in mind your penchant for misrepresentation. Christians aren't supposed to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 06:37 PM

Well, Jack, I've just heard a brief interview on the Beeb news channel with the auxiliary archbishop of Rio de Janeiro. There is absolutely no prospect of any move to ease the anti-abortion stance of the Catholic Church in Brazil, no matter what happens. The Church is putting up severe resistance to any discussion of a change in the law. In Brazil, it's already next to impossible to get an abortion.


Joe...?

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 05:50 PM

Has anyone read whether or not the UN has declared this outbreak an international public health crisis? I understand there was a meeting about it today.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 06:40 PM

Well, let me be the first. The principal reason why abortion is almost unobtainable in South America is the church, and in South America that is almost wholly the RC church. The repressive phallocratic reactionary laws are the fault of the church. The impending tidal wave of genetically human beings with no capacity for rational thought or action is therefore the fault of the church. Damn the church. It is a force for evil. If enough people suffer, perhaps the people will rise against their oppressors. May they do the same in Eire and Northern Ireland too.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 08:36 PM

Has anyone read whether or not the UN has declared this outbreak an international public health crisis?

You are probably thinking of the World Health Organization, which has declared an emergency.

statement 1 Feb 2016

"Pregnant women who have been exposed to Zika virus should be counselled and followed for birth outcomes based on the best available information and national practice and policies."

Somebody's getting their arm twisted by the anti-abortion cultists. No way in hell is that what they really want to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Zika vs anti-abortion cults
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 16 - 08:37 PM

To stray slightly, we now have the good news that research will be able to be done on donated human embryos (from IVF recipients) which should increase the understanding of the early development of embryos and enable better investigation into infertility and miscarriage. Embryos may not be manipulated beyond 14 days, approximately the 250 cell stage, and may not be implanted. In spite of those tight safeguards we already have denizens of the Department of Pseudo-ethics from the University of Intolerant Mysogyny crawling out of the woodwork. We have scaremongering about designer babies, eugenics, GM babies and the threat to humanity in general. Here's a couple of them, from a Guardian article:

Dr David King, director of Human Genetics Alert, said: "This is the first step in a well mapped-out process leading to GM babies, and a future of consumer eugenics." He claimed the government's scientific advisers had already decided they were comfortable with the prospect of so-called "designer babies".

Anne Scanlan, from the anti-abortion organisation Life, said: "The HFEA now has the reputation of being the first regulator in the world to approve this uncertain and dangerous technology. It has ignored the warnings of over 100 scientists worldwide and given permission for a procedure that could have damaging far-reaching implications for human beings."

Sheesh.