'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:50 AM

The thing about Lude of course is that they owned both the iconic harps in Scottish history (the Queen Mary and the Lamont), so it's on these very instruments that the song accompaniments would have been played.

That quote is one of my favourites! Always loved "martyr the first" and "martyr the second" and know how they feel (minus the ice in the wash bowl). How those two girls managed not to grow up hating music I'll never know. I also like the story about Mama sailing in and taking them out of Elouis' studio because there was a... a... (o dear, how shall I phrase it??)... a man present!!!! Scandalous.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:35 AM

The only musical connection I knew of for Lude was the splendid strathspey "Mrs Macinroy of Lude" by Joseph Lowe, from 200 years later.

It might well be possible to fill in the gap with other music, if somebody wanted to dig out the relevant genealogies and search for tunes associated with the names therein. (Was Miss Menzies of Culdares, for whom the strathspey is named, the one who married General Robertson of Lude?)

You might like this if you haven't already seen it. (I posted it to another forum in 2002). From the memoirs of Elizabeth Grant of Rothiemurchus, about being in a big house in the Highlands under her governess at the age of 15 in 1812, getting up at 6am with her sister:

   In winter we rose half an hour later, without candle, or fire,
   or warm water. Our clothes were all laid on a chair overnight
   in readiness for being taken up in proper order. My Mother
   would not give us candles, and Miss Elphick insisted we should
   get up. We were not allowed hot water, and really in the high-
   land winters, when the breath froze on the sheets, and the water
   in the jugs became cakes of ice, washing was a cruel necessity,
   the fingers were pinched enough. As we could play our scales
   well in the dark, the two pianofortes and the harp began the
   day's work. How very near crying the one whose turn set her at
   the harp I will not speak of; the strings cut the poor cold
   fingers so that the blisters often bled. Martyr the second put
   her poor blue hands on the keys of the grand-pianoforte in the
   drawing room, for in those two rooms the fires were never lighted
   till near nine o'clock - the grates were of bright steel, the
   household was not early and so we had to bear our hard fate.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:10 PM

Jack's citation of lowland and continental repertoire in the Skene and other such sources puts me in mind of observations made in a major historical study of this period in Scotland which has just come out, reinforcing this cultural diversity:

The Literary Culture of Early Modern Scotland - Manuscript Production and Transmission, 1560–1625, Sebastiaan Verweij
Oxford University Press 2016, ISBN 9780198757290

Blurb sez:

This wide ranging survey of Lowland Scottish literary manuscripts devotes a complete chapter (number 7) to the background to Margaret Robertson of the Lude family and the compilation of her collection of verse. Since at that period such material would have been sung, probably accompanied by one of the family's harps, it is of interest, as its author states as an example that "both Highland and Anglo–Scottish Lowland musical traditions peacefully coexisted at Lude".

(Scroll down to near the bottom of the web page):
http://www.wirestrungharp.com/library/bibliography.html

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 12:44 PM

I don't recall any serious problems with Dauney, but he isn't very imaginative with rhythm. There are some pieces (Adew Dundie is one) where dotted rhythms bring the tune to life.

BTW the mandour tuning of the Skene MS is relatively the same as (a tone up from) the mandolin tuning that U Srinivas adopted for South Indian music. An opportunity for some cross-fertilization there.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 07:37 AM

@Bonnie Shaljean

Done

Regards

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 07:14 AM

And - since we're posting links:

A gold mine of info and useful reference material is to be found at WireStrungHarp, who also has a Facebook page:

http://www.wirestrungharp.com

https://www.facebook.com/WireStrungHarp/?fref=ts

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:39 AM

Simon is English, and moved to St Andrews some years after college. Ann is American (as am I, though I've lived in Ireland for the past quarter-century) and Brendan is Irish.

Jack: I've just been looking at the Skene and picking some tunes out to play on my Mulagh Mast replica, but I only have Dauney. What do you think of his edition?

While I'm here: Yo, MARTIN RYAN - can you PM me your email? Something I want to send you.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:21 AM

Chadwick's harp resource page:

http://www.earlygaelicharp.info/

His personal page:

http://www.simonchadwick.net/

He doesn't claim to be a Highlander and lives in a place where Gaelic has never been spoken. I've no idea where he comes from (I couldn't tell from his accent - at any rate, he isn't a Canadian like you) and he doesn't think it relevant to anything. I agree.

The repertoire he plays on that instrument is significant but it is not huge. Having seen him live, I can see why players decided that other instruments made more effect with less effort and expense.

The Skene Manuscript contains no fiddle or pipe tunes. (I've handled the original and I can read the tablature). The fiddle was pretty near unknown in Scotland at the time. Harp, maybe a few, but most of the contents are arrangements of Lowland songs or adaptations of French court music. The instrument the MS was intended for was a 5-string ukulele.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 08:32 PM

there is a distinction between gaelic harping and irish harping. graine yeats was instrumental in the revival of the gaelic harp. that is the brass wire strung harp. there were a hand full of players through the 19th and early 20th century but their traditional links were weak. they played a few tunes of ancient manuscripts but mostly o'carolan and songs. yeats along with a genuine genius jay witcher got access to all the surviving gaelic harps. witcher is a phyicist and air craft engineer a woodworker and was already a decent musician in orchestral music and eastern european folk and the jazz it inspired. unique background. he understood the physics formulas for the resonating string. these are taught to any first year physics student but few apply them to calculating the optimum stringing for ancient gaelic harps. he found several ancient harps that had good design. the lamont, the o'fogarty and to a lesser extent the castle ottway.   he also tyhought that the remnants of the balinderry harp could be extrapolated from, to get the harmonic curve and probably string lengths over the range, and that it was well designed. together with garine yeats they started making gaelic harps. now there are many makers but then it was quite revolutionary. witcher was offered the post as official harp maker for the republic of eire. he turned it down as he was using maple as his main wood and it could be sourced more easily in new brunswick and maine and much cheaper for high quality wood.

now i like mary o'hara and that trfadition. it is certainly as old as most english song traditions which were made up by folk sing mediators in the 19th century. i prefer the gaelic style and try to play it in my own way. so grainne eats had a specific vision of gaelic harping she was promoting and it wasn't the dominant style. now it has had a great influence and people such as ann heyman and siom chadwick have gone to ancient manuscripts and rediscovered a vast repitoire, and have raised the bar of masterufull playing that i am hopelss to ever be worthy of.

the gaelic harp was a different tradition from the lowland and english harp tradition, and much older in all probablity.

the same is true of gaelic fiddling. jack campion is dead wrong about cape breton fiddling and as a lot of lowland scotts do he is spouting a bigoted rant. the scoffing scotman. in fact gaelic fgiddling almost died in scotland. they had a classically influenced style from skinner and others but the gaelic tradition died. that's why almost all the traditional scottish fiddlers came to nova scotia to learn the ancient gaelic style. as did the dancers.

when witcher and yeats started their work there were no gaelic harps available, now there are many makers of fine instruments and the search for the anceint sound has gone deep into many directions, and deep into the intrepretation of the surviving manuscripts. (john skene for instance was collecting harp , fiddle amd pipe tunes in scotland around 1600, although he didn't say which was which. the robert ap huw manuscript is thought to contain many gaelic piecres as well as welsh pieces)

these gaelic cultural revivals do raise the hackles of those who are still deep in british empire colonial bigotry , but it's happening and they are producing beautiful music and beautifull instruments. the reseach is different. previously they ignored gaelic sources but now they are discovering the links and histories bit by bit from those sources. bands like ossian have been open minded and recorded the ancient gaelic style in the poplar folk venues. i would suggest every one give a listen to ann hey man, siomn chadwink, brendan ring and others. they are great players who have revived a great tradition. and ignore the scoffing lowlanders. they are sassenachean after all.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 08:19 PM

It really depends on what you want to do. A lot of those requirements are for classical harping, pedal markings, etc. I've been scoring harp music professionally for about 18 years, and there are symbols in place for harp notation, plus good workarounds which also serve the purpose quite well. I run my own publishing company (small though it be), and some of its material is on the ABRSM and Trinity syllabuses/syllabi (take your pick), also the Royal Irish, so it does meet industry standards. Sibelius has been my weapon of choice.

I have friends who use less expensive software for their harp books, and it seems to work fine (I've seen/bought/played a lot of their stuff) though I'm sorry I can't provide specific details on their programmes. But most of the folks I know in that line tend to have Sibelius or Finale. It's not just a matter of symbols, it's also stuff like cross-staff beaming and odd voicing/stem configurations. (That word "affordable" may be a sticking point, I suppose; but we all manage to stump up for computers and smartphone and tablets. I think it pretty much boils down to: one can afford what they want/need to afford.)

But I have not liked Sibelius' upgrade versions for quite some time, and am now not getting them any more. The actual scoring capabilities just get wonkier and wonkier as They mess them about to suit the needs of their precious Pro Tools. But it isn't working. Avid is not in great shape and has downsized yet again.

I'm interested in the new programme Daniel Spreadbury and the Finns (the inventors of Sibelius) are currently developing for Steinberg. At least Daniel will listen to you, and responds to queries promptly. He's a Facebook friend, and publishes a periodic development diary, so I will eventually go with his product. But Sibelius has adequately served my purposes for a long, long time, and continues usable, if increasingly irritating.

So I'd say hang fire and when I see what the new one is like, I'll start a thread. (It'll be awhile though - it's still in beta.)

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens' (Irish harpists)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 07:17 PM

the rise of decent affordable score-notation software

Harp scores tend to use special signs not used for other instruments. What's the most cost-effective solution that provides them?

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 03:59 PM

[This comment was written in response to Keberoxu's previous post - the above one hadn't appeared while I was typing it.]

Not at all! My only problem is, I'm pretty tight for time at the moment, and can't give this thread the depth of consideration that it deserves, tho I've been lurking. (As you can see, wisecracks, on the other hand, roll off me instantaneously...) So I will be back when I can contribute something of more substance - which means first giving everything here a thorough read, instead of the brief skim that is all I've so far managed, and all I can do right now. (Got writing deadlines.)

Short answer to your (perfectly reasonable) question is no, not really. Not for me, anyway. People pursuing the harp in search of real knowledge, and expending true commitment plus plain hard work, don't have the mental resources to spare for fighting (or even worrying about) shallow, stereotyped views of what we do. (The other problem is us automatically getting consigned to Elf Land - but the same responses apply.)

In fact, the people I spend any kind of time with, or have any kind of time for, don't hold them. And the old clichés are dying out: there are just too many good players out there, too many high quality instruments being made, too much good music (with the rise of decent affordable score-notation software). Also, the internet makes it a lot easier for us to do research and find kindred spirits all over the world, and then talk to each other, hear each other, admire each other's art. There's strength in numbers.

And that's my "short" answer! Keeping this thread on the tracer...

(PS: A suggestion - can you ask one of the clones to interject the word "harp" somewhere in the title? I knew instantly who "dear spinning Eileen" was, but a lot of rewarding input may be getting missed because not everyone will make that connection. Just a thought.)

___________________Your wish is my command. Mudelf______________________

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 03:33 PM

I was just looking up the singers listed for the Amhrain Ghra album, which appears to be intended for the audiences of the Gael Linn Cabaret of another era; the album is on the Gael Linn label. Some of these names have been considered already in this thread.

I had never heard of Marjorie Courtney, however.
In 1991, Eileen Casey interviewed Courtney for a periodical covering Knocklyon. It can be found in a PDF file online; the following quotes will demonstrate that Marjorie Courtney embraced the cabaret world.

[quote]
....it all really began when she became a pupil at the Dominican convent, Muckross Park, which was just a short journey from her home in Dundrum where she was born. 'Oh, I was so lucky,' she says, 'despite the fact that it was an enclosed order, the nuns were light-years ahead in self-development. It was the making of me....Mother Cecilia took me under her wing and opened up a new world to me....I owe so much to Mother Cecilia. She was always so thrilled when I won prizes in the soprano competitions at the Feis Ceoil or the Oireachtas...'

....her career blossomed....she was in great demand for singing at dinners -- the norm was for 6 nights a week. She recalls one busy night when she sang in the upper dining room of the old Jury's Hotel, then in the downstairs room, before dashing off first to the Dolphin and then the Clarence.
[keberoxu: must have been a weekend night?]
Today, Marjorie Courtney is in greater demand than ever -- not as a singer -- she gave that up a few years ago -- but as presenter and provider of entertainment in the grand style. She is an Entertainment Consultant....[an] entrepreneur of singers, dancers, orchestras, pipers, harpists, concerts, cabarets and show bands....

....she arranges every year, the Viennese Ball in the Berkeley Court. A full orchestra, and featured will be Niambh Murray, an attractive, young up-and-coming singer who is off to study in Italy in the New Year.
[endquote]

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 02:37 PM

Welcome, Bonnie Shaljean. I was afraid you would never post to this thread. As anyone can tell, I am no harpist, only an observer on the outside. But you have an inside point of view on this consideration of the Irish harp going into the new millenium.

Has the image of women-singers-with-harps been a distraction for fully committed devotees of the Irish Harp? Please, don't bite my head off.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 10:51 AM

Yeh, but she cheats! She straps a small harp to her torso. Eileen's grandmother would have a meltdown. (Guy waiting just outside the window probably wouldn't tho... it would definitely make the leap up onto the sill more interesting.) But which leg is she going to use to spin the wheel with?

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 07:44 PM

How does one posture while balancing a heavy instrument on one's shoulder?

Does Deborah Hanson-Conant count? - playing in hotpants so she can damp the strings with a bare thigh?

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 06:55 PM

" posturing behind a harp, twinkling at captive audiences"

How does one posture while balancing a heavy instrument on one's shoulder?

Twinkling, we can assume, means "having a friendlier nature than the writer".

captive audience? They paid to be there and are free to leave.
==========
People, this isn't musicology, it's mere cattiness.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 05:12 PM

Just found this.

Mary O'Hara's "Songs of Ireland": side two of the LP begins with The Spinning Wheel. Herself has proved me wrong. That said, I think she recorded this album after the death of her first husband, when she was wrapping up her youthful career and headed for the Benedictine nuns....before her comeback. At that time, Mary O'Hara was well established already. I question if she sang this tune before she made the recording, but perhaps she did.

Good heavens, how very high her soprano voice was! She could have sung with a choir of little boys -- such purity.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Mar 16 - 04:57 PM

www.irishmusicdaily.com/spinning-wheel-song

The above URL is another quick read on the song mentioned elsewhere in this thread. This article supports the position that the poem came first, and was set to music after the fact.

And I have to remark, I have yet to see a reference to the Spinning Wheel song being in the repertoire of any of the "spinning Eileens" themselves, if "spinning Eileens" are defined as the performers in cabarets and banquets in stone castles. Maybe it actually happened, but I have come across no trace of it.

Now watch somebody prove me wrong!

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Helen
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 06:03 PM

Hi keberoxu,

Thanks for the info. Here are the links:


Amhráin Ghrá

Amhráin Ghrá - Claddagh Records

Helen

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Mar 16 - 05:43 PM

Bear with me, because I still can't do Blue Clickie links. But I can submits URLs in a post.

It occurs to me that some readers, who know even less than I did when I wrote the original post, might want examples of the "cabaret harp" being scrutinized here.

Both these pages describe the same recording product.

https://siopa.gael-linn.ie and search for "Amhrain Ghra."

http://claddaghrecords.com/index.php/amhrain-ghra-songs-of-love-by-irish-female-vocalists.html

Multiple singers/harp-accompanists here, including:
Máire Ní Scolaí
Eilidh Ní Marchaigh
Fionnuala Mac Lochlainn
Marjorie Courtney
Deirdre Ní Fhlóinn
Kathleen Watkins
Gráinne Yeats
Mary O'Hara

Seventeen titles, they all appear to be Irish/Gaelic, including "Róisín Dubh."

No, I have not heard any of these records myself.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Mar 16 - 08:44 PM

ITMA board member Aibhlín McCrann had an article published, January 2006, in the Journal of Music [Ireland]. This article can be viewed online at the Journal's website. Herewith, a relevant quote.

How is it that the Irish harp, our acknowledged national instrument for more than one thousand years, and untouched even by the 'Riverdance' revolution, is only now beginning to assume an authoritative voice and [to] come to prominence? The development of the Irish harp to the point at where it stands today has undoubtably been beleaguered by conflicting social and cultural standards of harpers themselves, other traditional musicians, and various commentators. The efforts of the Ní Shé sisters, Mary O'Hara, Kathleen Watkins, Deirdre O'Callaghan, and the 'castle' players in the 'sixties and the early 'seventies contributed greatly to the raising of public awareness of the harp. While they represented a certain genre of performance, and certainly developed a national identity for the instrument, it has taken many years to cast off the somewhat clichéd "Irish colleen" image of a young girl posturing behind a harp, twinkling at captive audiences as she sings about Leprechauns and crocks of gold.
[endquote]

There is one sentence, further on in the same article, which touches on the tension, already mentioned in earlier posts, between two organizations of musicians in Ireland.

[quote]
Comhaltas Ceoltóiri Éireann, with whom founding members of Cairde na Cruite shared a somewhat tempestuous relationship due to deeply held philosophical differences of musical opinion, began to feature the harp at Fleadhanna Ceoil competitions [in the 1970's].
[endquote]

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 11:35 AM

I live within a medieval slingshot of Dunguaire, as it happens!

Regards

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 21 Mar 16 - 11:27 AM

Mention of the "stone castles" from the original post, opening this thread, would bring the conversation full circle.

Indeed, the cabarets and medieval banquets in said "stone castles" are one of the great cash cows of Irish tourism. Although the phrase "dear spinning Eileens" was new to me, and mystified me utterly, it was far easier to locate references to "cabaret harpers" and "banquet harpers." I have spoken flippantly of grist for the mill, I who have never visited Ireland at all nor been one of the mead-swillers condescended to in that review quote. Not far off the mark, it seems.

Bunratty, Knappog[u]e, Dungaire, Shannon in general, Jury's Cabaret....harps, singing, stone castles, and tourism.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:02 PM

The website www.ainm.ie has the goal of putting online biographies in Gaelic, rather than English, of prominent Irish figures. My search for the redoubtable O'Shea family turned up this site. I will have my work cut out for me, making sense of the Gaelic -- with lots of quick-and-dirty help from Google Translate.

The paterfamilias has his own biography page there. He was born John Patrick O'Shea in 1887, in county Cork. By 1912 he was calling himself Séan Pádraig Ó Séaghdha. In spite of a childhood divided between county Cork, and England (Birmingham, where he learned to play cricket), when Ó Séaghdha invested in a house in Dundrum, he named it for the Dingle peninsula in county Kerry: Corca Dhuibhne. Wonder if the house remains in the family? Twice married, the father of six sired all his children during his first marriage.

We have thus far met three daughters of Séan Pádraig Ó Séaghdha: Máirín, the oldest, who taught at Sion Hill; Nessa, the Gaelic-language scholar; Finbarr, "an engineer" according to the ainm.ie biography; Róisín, lifelong musician; Niamh, who played the harp with her sisters until marriage, then became a home economics teacher; and Nuala, born in 1923, for whom I cannot locate a death date although I have death-years for all the older siblings.

Séan P. Ó Séaghdha died in 1971. His daughter Nessa said of him, that the greatest source of pride for him, was that so many of his descendants were raised as native speakers of Irish.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 07:58 PM

Thanks, Martin Ryan, for setting me straight about Caroline Townshend. She does sound redoubtable.

Moving on to that trio of sisters:
Their parents were Séan and Caitlín Ó Séaghdha. It seems that all three sisters, when young, studied the Irish harp, and presumably all with the same harp teacher, Caroline Townshend. Interestingly, the sisters pursued differing levels of literacy where music is concerned, no two of them taking the exact same path. In their youth, however, they turn up in notices in archived Irish local newspapers, with the three of them performing as a musical trio; I was left unclear if this was a trio of harps? One or more of them may have sung as well. The paper was unclear about the presentation but their three names were there, as was the emphasis that they were siblings.

Neasa Ní Sheaghdha (1916-1993), when still very young, tried drama; and one book of memoirs from someone outside the family recalls the memory of seeing Neasa as Antigone, a performance that was memorable for all the right reasons. If music remained part of her life, it must have been in a more private, even amateur, context. Also identified as Nessa Ní Shéa, she pursued higher education so as to focus on antiquated forms of the Gaelic, to become literate enough to study manuscript sources containing the great old epic tales of ancient Ireland. Her name appears on a scholarly presentation of the tragedy of Dhiarmada agus Ghráinne / Dermot and Grania / Diarmuid Ua Duibhne and Gráinne from the Fenian saga.

Róisín Ní Sheaghdha earned a B.A. in Celtic studies, studied piano at RIAM (she must certainly have learned to read music), and pursued graduate studies at University College Dublin, in education it appears. She sang to her own harp accompaniment, and participated in many Celtic Congresses. Her career track does not precisely parallel that of her sister Máirín but is close to it.

Máirín Ní Shé / Ní Sheaghdha (1913-1990) is the name which is inseparable from the Harp Room in the music division of the Dominican College of Sion Hill. She was married by then, with a last name variously given as Ferriter or Feiriteir. "Deeply indebted to harp teacher, Caroline Townshend," says Sheila Larchet Cuthbert in her book, The Irish Harp Book: A Tutor and Companion (page 240). She tutored generations of harp students, many of these grist for the "stone castle" mills and Jury's Cabaret. Earlier posts have named the best-known pupils.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 03:55 PM

Caroline was musically literate alright - she is credited with many published arrangements of Irish music, as far as I can see. An interesting woman in many ways - she turns up as witness in an investigation of Black and Tan brutality during the Irish War of Independence.

The family tree is convoluted but she certainly seems to have been of that clan alright.

Regards

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 10 Mar 16 - 03:23 PM

"All the dear Spinning Eileens" comes from a review quoted in the OP opening this thread. The names quoted there are "Kathleen Watkins [and] Deirdre O'Callaghan," who made recordings as a duo when young. They are names in an interesting list: Deirdre Ní Fhlóinn [Flynn], Mary O'Hara, Janet Harbison, and many other students. What these harp students have in common is of course their teacher, Mairín Ní Shé. Their teacher was no nun, however she accepted the offer to work as harp instructor at Sion Hill's Dominican College, so it was nuns who hired the teacher.

And their teacher's teacher was a Cork native whose name is variously given as either Caroline Townshend or Caroline Townsend.

What both Ms. Townsend, and the three Ní Shé sisters who all studied with her, have in common, is that none of them seem to have had the kind of music training that goes with classical music instruction. Janet Harbison, who did indeed have such a background as a long-time piano student, states that Mairín Ní Shé did not read music at all, but taught by ear, and relied on those who did read music to perform pieces recorded in print so that she could learn the pieces by ear. Less is known of Caroline Townshend -- I cannot find anyone who says definitively whether or not she ever learned to read music.

One writer who offers information on Caroline Townshend is the late Nora Joan Clark, in her "The Story of the Irish Harp." Because books.google.com only lets me view certain preview pages in this book, I cannot get at Clark's end-notes to see the sources of her quotes. Here is the best I can view online.
"Other sources mention Caroline Townshend, daughter of an eminent philanthropist in nineteenth century Irish life, who '....set herself the task of rediscovering the long-since outlawed Irish harp, the emblem of Ireland....gave free lessons and many copies of her [Welsh] harp were made.'
"Sheila Cuthbert notes that Caroline Townshend was '....interested in everything Irish, the language, culture, music, and she taught the Irish harp to anyone interested, especially to the local girls near her home....in Dublin, she was delighted to find herself teaching quite advanced musicians...the O'Shea sisters and many others.'
(pp. 105 - 106, The Story of the Irish Harp: Its History and Influence)

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 08:41 PM

Helen, there are lots of harp lessons on YouTube. Take a look.

If you study piano and you learn music theory, then that will help with harp playing. However, I have talked to pianists who can play well but have never learned any theory. I think that's sad.

"Music theory" sounds daunting, but it's really pretty easy.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 04:52 PM

The 7 March post quoting "Travels with my Harp" by Mary O'Hara, names the Sion Hill superior, Mother Jordan, and harp-maker Malachy McFall of Belfast. Oona Linnett's thesis "The Irish Harp" (quoted post 6 March) includes a reproduction of a public advertisement dated 1904, by one James McFall in Belfast, which declares:
"In use in all the leading Convents throughout the world." Which supports the repeated assertion that, turning from 19th century to 20th, harps in Ireland were limited to the parlors, drawing rooms, salons, and convents, where it was expected that women, not men, would play them.

Page 50 in "The Irish Harp" brings up Comhaltas Ceoltóoirí Éireann in the 1950's when it was founded. Séamus MacMathuma, interviewed by Linnett for her thesis, confesses:
"I suppose we would generally be perceived as being conservative....The [Irish] harp was looked at as a bit of a sacred cow in the early years [of Comhaltas]. It was something that you paid lip-service to....Probably with Comhaltas it got off to a bad start."
And, on page 102, Mac Mathuma recalls how it was twenty years later, with the breakthrough of a younger generation of musicians.
"I can remember, because I had known Máire Ní Chathasaigh as a young girl, and she was doing wonderful things. I remember the first year the harp was included in the Scoil Éigse [1976]. We would normally have recitals at some stage. There wasn't an expectant hush for the harp, because people hadn't heard Máire playing. But mind you, once she started! Within that week, a whole lot of young people changed their attitude to the harpers....a whole lot of people just accepted it straight away. There were things happening on the harp!"

To reinforce how differently the Irish harp was perceived in the 1950's, another quote from page 50 of the thesis, this time from Aibhlín McCrann, at Cáirde Na Cruite:
"Comhaltas did the harp no favors in the 1950s, because they just totally ignored it, and kind of neatly put it into a little box and said: 'Ah, you're fine for cabaret and the American circuit: "the Colleen behind the harp". '   [Their attitude] was understandable in some ways, because what they were hearing wasn't their perception of what Irish [traditional] music should be."

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Helen
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 03:31 PM

keberoxu,

I have a copy of Sheila Larchet Cuthbert's book, The Irish Harp Book: a Tutor and Companion, first printed in 1975 by Mercier Press, and my copy was reprinted in 1985.

I have had it for maybe 30 years, but I haven't used it. As I've said in either this thread or another I am self taught on the harp, and also I never learned piano which would have made it easier for me, I think.

I would have ordered the book without seeing it and when I looked at it I realised it was very daunting for an amateur musician struggling without a teacher. If I had had a teacher I may have had some benefit from it.

It has a lot of Irish tunes in it, including the hauntingly weird My Lagan Love, and some Carolan tunes.

Helen

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 10:12 AM

Sounds like your "Caroline Townsend/Townshend" may have been the daughter of Horatio (sometimes Horace) Townsend the Younger - described as "a barrister and writer on music" in his entry in The Encyclopaedia of Music in Ireland. It lists several philosophy books as his work. There is no direct reference to his daughter. The Townshends were an extended well-to-do family, widespread in West Cork - witness the beautiful village of Castletownshend in that area.

It is possible that the Irish Traditional Music Archive (www.itma.ie) may have information on Ms. Townshend.

Regards

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 16 - 03:07 AM

You may want to look into Joan Rimmer's work.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Mar 16 - 08:37 PM

Thanks, Mr. Ryan, that's me sorted out. Actually I know why I got the two confused -- has to do with an obituary/memorial for Gráinne Yeats; that can wait for a later post.

And in due course, I should have in my hands an article written by Janet Harbison, actually it is a paper presented at a conference in the 1990's; I have ordered a copy of the proceedings and am waiting for its snail-mail delivery, not holding my breath. Quotes from this article pepper the Internet, and it sounds as though Ms. Harbison does not mince words. She is protective of the women who kept the harp-makers in business by teaching harp to other women, and with reason. While Ms. Harbison has studied classical music with its emphasis on literacy and written notation -- she was a pianist before she took up the Irish harp -- she has also studied with Irish women whose tradition was oral and who in one case did not even read music. Harbison values both sources of learning personally, even though she has made some hard-nosed decisions about pedagogy and how to teach other teachers.

And talking of teachers, there are two women I would like to mention; they belong to earlier generations, and there is only so much information on them.

Caroline Townshend, sometimes spelled Townsend, information on her is scarce. I have neither birth nor death dates. It is written that her father was a philosopher in the 19th century. Ms. Townshend, in the early 20th century, studied not only Irish harp but all things Celtic, including the Gaelic tongue. She came from outside Dublin, but at some point in her adult life Townshend relocated to Dublin. And there she enthusiastically passed on everything she could to her students. The Shea / Ní Sheaghdha sisters were influenced by Townshend's devotion to Celtic culture, and these three women made their presence felt in the 20th century. I will say more later.

Then there was the nun, Mother Attracta Coffey (at first of course she was Sister Attracta). In 1903 she actually published a tutor, an instruction book, for the Irish harp. Mother Attracta was installed at Loreto Abbey, which along with the Dominican foundation at Sion Hill became the source of a lineage of Irish harp teachers and performers. Sheila Larchet Cuthbert, years after Mother Attracta's death, succeeded in finding a rare copy of Mother Attracta's "Tutor for the Irish Harp," and incorporating what she could of it into her own tutor publication, thus preserving the roots of a tradition of teaching.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Mar 16 - 07:27 PM

"Comhaltas" is short for "Comhaltas Ceoltoirí Eireann" - which roughly translates as "Irish Musicians Collective". It is not a union in any sense.

To find out more:
Click here

Its role in maintaining the tradition since its foundation is considerable, if not without controversy.

Regards


P.S. Pronunciation is (very) roughly cole-tus kiol - toree air-un! First syllable stressed in each word. Generally referred to just by the first word.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Mar 16 - 06:22 PM

Many thanks to all for the opinions, information, and interest shown so far.

There is one other, if you will, collective character in the drama whom I will have to introduce in a post at some point. Musicians often refer to this collective with the word "Comhaltas," which of course is short for something much longer. Being an outsider in Irish traditional music, I am not certain if the "Comhaltas" is the same thing as the Musicians' Union of Ireland, which has got its own website. The thing about the "Comhaltas" relevant to this discussion, is its staunch support for those instruments and genres that have endured in traditional Irish music in spite of everything. This means that there was, sixty years ago if not still today, a conflicted attitude toward the harp. There was the symbolism of the bardic harp, on the one hand -- the harp IS Éire, if you will -- and the little gut-string harps which were permitted in the Anglicized Ireland of the 18th and 19th century, with their utter dislocation from Gaelic antiquity.

When Gráinne Yeats, for example, was challenged to prove that the Irish harp was a trad - music instrument, and that harp players were actually legitimate musicians, some of this challenge came at her from fellow Irish citizens: trad-music players whose music had survived, one way or the other, in the absence of harps for over a hundred years. Yeats took this very much to heart, she makes no bones about that: wanting, in her own career, to make a case for the Irish harp as a serious undertaking, one that real musicians ought to listen to and support. If Yeats sounds harsh and blunt in her assessment of "spinning Eileens," remember that her assessment reflects the disparagement of traditional Irish musicians who play other instruments.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Mar 16 - 06:59 PM

More first-person testimony, this time from chapter 2 of Travels with my Harp, the revised edition of memoirs by Mary O'Hara.
"It was 1951, my penultimate year at Sion Hill. The annual pageant was going to be based on the life and works of Thomas Moore, who in his poems depicted the harp as a symbol of Ireland. For that reason, harps and harpers had to be found. [Remember, this school is located in Greater Dublin -- where were they going to find musicians if not in Dublin?]
Unfortunately, both had by then gone out of fashion in Ireland. The forward-looking prioress of Sion Hill, Mother Jordan, had earlier decided to introduce the harp to the school, probably with the pageant in mind. Researching for my Talks in 2005, I chanced upon some interesting correspondence between Mother Jordan and Mr. Malachy McFall of Belfast, the only harp-maker left in Ireland at the time. He didn't have any new harps and could only offer her one second-hand Tara standing harp for 65 pounds, a pretty stiff figure in those days. So, the school scoured the country high and low and collected old harps from barns, outhouses, and attics -- most of them riddled with woodworm -- and managed to 'fit' three small Brian Boru knee-harps to three young singers in the pageant: Deirdre Flynn, Kathleen Watkins, and me....
"Deirdre, Kathleen, and I were not particularly pally starting off, but finding ourselves frequently thrown together during the ensuing couple of years, friendships were formed and, to this day, we have kept in touch and meet occasionally. They opted not to take up music professionally but have followed my work closely and been my lifelong supporters."
keberoxu notes: Clearly there would have been players of European pedal harps, the classical music concert harp, around somewhere, and teachers of European harp technique with them. The point of the quote is that when the harp peculiar to Ireland and Irish music was called for, there were hardly any to be had.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Mar 16 - 06:35 PM

There are cylinder recordings of Patuffa Kennedy-Fraser from the early 1900s that should indicate how good she was - presumably her Irish contemporaries were doing similar things.

I think harp playing in Scotland got a substantial kick up the bum in the mid-20th century from Jean Campbell (borrowing classical harp techniques) which is about the same time as that last post of keberoxu's describes Irish harping as needing one.

Subject: Gráinne Yeats
From: keberoxu
Date: 07 Mar 16 - 03:51 PM

Mairéid Sullivan interviewed Gráinne Yeats for her 1999 book, "Celtic Women in Music." quoting:
"I heard Joan O'Hara playing the harp and I immediately thought I wanted to learn to play it....it was shortly after I was married [to Michael Yeats] that I became interested in it...I learnt basic harp technique from Sheila Larchet Cuthbert and Mercedes Bolger...who's been my friend all these years [], the teacher at the Royal Irish Academy of Music.
"You might be interested in this little insight about the time before we really made our effort to improve the standards for teaching the harp. When the harp was beginning to come back, I went down to a conference at a local center to examine the students, on behalf of the [Royal Irish] Academy. I examined a few students who really weren't very good. Then their teacher, a nun, came to me, to do the exam, and she was just one step ahead of the pupils. That's the way it was before we launched our programme."

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Mar 16 - 07:19 PM

Grainne Yeats (Irish harper and music historian, 1925-2013) is quoted as saying, "What you had, basically, were beautiful young girls singing sweet folk songs, playing little chords, and they weren't really playing the instrument."

Let's think about this. Are we really supposed to believe that over 20 years (1950's and 1960's) there was no variation in the students? Normally a studio would have some brilliant students, many ordinary students and a few slackers. Among the ordinary students there would still be quite a range in talent and willingness to practice.

In other words, in 20 years we would expect to see some sign of the bell curve.

Yet Ms. Yeats claims to know that not one student became accomplished. Even worse - not one could play a melody. And stranger yet, every one was beautiful. Wow!

In my opinion, this isn't musicology, it's just being catty.

Subject: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Mar 16 - 04:12 PM

On another thread I have quoted "The Irish Harp," the thesis (master's degree) viewable online, from the University of Wales, Bangor, written by Oona Linnett (2009). The author did extensive interviewing with direct quotes, some of which may be brought to bear upon this conflicted public identity/image question.

Sister Carmel Warde, archivist (at the time of researching the thesis) for the Sion Hill Convent, is also interviewed, and without any trace of irony, she speaks about supplying musicians to precisely the 'stone castles' criticized by the record review in the original post on this thread.
"Looking back over the 1950's and the 1960's I recall very happy busy days preparing [the harp students at the convent] for Jury's Cabaret....Before the Summer holidays we awaited invitations from Bunratty Castle, Killarney Hotels, Dublin Hotels, and the Hilton Hotel in London for our harpists to entertain guests for a week or two...These were great days when the Sion Hill Harp School flourished." (p. 44, The Irish Harp thesis)

Gráinne Yeats was intrepid about facing this conflict head-on and speaking of it; and Oona Linnett interviewed her as well:
"What you had, basically, were beautiful young girls singing sweet folk songs, playing little chords, and they weren't really playing the instrument. They were using it solely as an embellishment of the song....Mary [O'Hara] was the best, and she sang beautifully, but you did have a lot of terribly inefficient ones. "   (page 47)
When Yeats asked Sean O'Riada to compose something for her own instrument, the relatively modern gut-stringed harp rather than the wire-stringed harp of Irish antiquity, O'Riada turned her down. This is how Yeats accounts for O'Riada's refusal.
"I think he was depressed about the standard of harp-playing at the time, because it was very, very low....the little girl image, singing sweet songs, was not one that appealed to Séan. And he was right, I think. Because we're talking about a very old and beautiful tradition." (page 51, thesis)
Yeats goes on to relate that there was, at the time, only one harp-maker in Ireland, Daniel Quinn, of whom Máire Ní Chathasaigh recalls that the waiting list for his harps was as long as two years. When Yeats asked Quinn if he would make for her a wire-strung harp -- such as the purist O'Riada would take seriously -- "Quinn was absolutely incredulous" (page 54, thesis).

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Helen
Date: 06 Mar 16 - 12:54 AM

Also, if you listen to John McDermott's version (which I posted a link to above on 04 Mar 16 - 02:17 PM) you can hear the arpeggios.

Not sure if that is on a harp, either.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Helen
Date: 06 Mar 16 - 12:50 AM

On this YouTube clip of
Tom Smith playing The Spinning Wheel on an electronic keyboard, the comment is as follows:

"A SONG BASED ON VERSE BY JOHN FRANCIS WALLER. RECORDED BY DELIA MURPHY IN 1939, WHEN I THINK THE MELODY MAY HAVE BEEN ADDED."

I am not sure how Tom Smith arrived at this conclusion but he appears to be saying that Delia Murphy used a different tune for the song than the tune referred to by J F Waller.

Delia Murphy performing The Spinning Wheel as recorded in 1939

The arpeggios are heard on that recording although I can't identify whether it is a harp or a guitar, as Arthur Daley on guitar is credited for the recording.

In my Googling earlier this morning - when the sparrows were still tucked up in their nests and my brain was not even awake yet, I did see something about Delia Murphy being the first person to set the tune to a harp accompaniment, but I am not sure whether she played an instrument, and if so, whether she played harp.

(Never do research on the internet without saving your findings because you can guarantee you will wish later that you had done so. LOL)

Ok, here it is:

Delia Murphy - artist biography

......One of her first recordings was the extraordinary "The Spinning Wheel." Written in 1899 by John Francis Waller, the song hauntingly evoked the courtship of young lovers measured by the inexorable winding of the spinner's wheel. Murphy's ethereal West Ireland brogue and Gaelic pronunciation was reinforced by a harp arrangement that was quite remarkable for the period.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 07:35 PM

I can't see any attribution for the tune earlier than Waller.

It doesn't sound at all like a harp exercise, and doesn't have a lot of arpeggios. It sounds a lot like Schubert, Schumann or Brahms, and somebody of Waller's social background would have been much more likely to listen to them than to either Irish traditional music or Celtic-twilight revivalist work.

Compare it with Brahms's well known lullaby op.49 no.4; not the same tune but very similar.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 04:14 PM

It's foolish to take offense where no offense is intended.

Do you play an instrument? Are you interested in music?

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Helen
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 02:11 PM

In the post by GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 16 - 06:43 PM

John Francis Waller the lyricist of The Spinning Wheel, and author of the article above suggests singing the verses to the tune of The Little House under the HiII but to me this version doesn't sound like the tune of TSW, so I'm not really sure about the origin of the tune.

A comment on the "Spinning Eileens" quote: I suspect, although I am only surmising, that The Spinning Wheel song with it's arpeggios was a standard tune for learning to play the harp last century in Ireland and that may be why the author of the article (which keberoxu quoted at the beginning of the thread) used the term so disparagingly.

Just imagine every amateur concert featuring a harp-learner doggedly attempting to perform those arpeggios! I think the tune could possibly be really annoying after the 200th time you heard it thumped out.

But, as I said, I am only surmising this.

Helen

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 01:12 PM

Where did the tune come from? German lieder?

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 01:05 PM

Ireland is part of the British Isles but not part of the UK in the same way that Canada is part of America but not part of the USA

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 01:00 PM

Leeneia,

I hope you're not including Ireland in the 'British Isles'.

Subject: RE: 'All the dear Spinning Eileens'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 12:05 PM

Further down the page is a version in the key of G, ostensibly for tin whistle. It should be easy to work out guitar-friendly chords for that.

I want to hear that this tune is suddenly being played all over the British Isles on tin whistles, banjos, harps, fiddles, ukeleles, melodeons and shruti boxes. And nobody knows why!