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Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL
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Subject: Origins: I SAW THREE SHIPS 7 HULL From: GeoffLawes Date: 29 Feb 16 - 07:37 AM Can anyone be definite about whether the carol "I Saw Three Ships" is really connected with Hull as I have heared. This link HERE, has an item from the Hull Daily Mail, which presents part of the story suggesting that the carol is about the bones of the three Magi, which, in the version I heard, were saved from a storm in the Humber while being transported. The late and lamented Malcolm Douglas, in an old MUDCAT thread " Origins: I saw 3 ships. Carol" HERE, suggested going back to another Mudcat thread , but the link given to that did not work. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I SAW THREE SHIPS 7 HULL From: GUEST,# Date: 29 Feb 16 - 11:52 AM thread.cfm?threadid=54593 I think that may be the older thread mentioned by Malcolm. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Feb 16 - 01:21 PM The perpetrator of that myth, in recent years, is Paul Davenport. It's plausible but has very little foundation. A version of the song in the Journals was collected from a Humber bargeman and Paul and Liz sing this version. Your best bet to start with is to talk to Paul. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Feb 16 - 04:05 PM Having looked at the other thread the earlier perpetrator of the myth was Annie Gilchrist in the EFDSS Journals. The connection is with the Humber rather than Hull. Paul has rather fancifully linked Hull's three crowns symbol with the skulls of the magi. Three skulls, three ships, three crowns........er...three bears! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Feb 16 - 04:12 PM Cue, an adaptation on Spare Hands' last album. I saw three ships go sailing by, go sailing by, go sailing by, I saw three ships go sailing by On a cold and frosty morning The Saint Romanus was the first... The Kingston Peridot was the next.... The third one was the Ross Cleveland... Bound down for the Arctic Seas.... The freezing spray soon turned to ice... These three trawlers they all went down..... The wives and bains were left to mourn... I saw three ships go sailing by.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,henryp Date: 29 Feb 16 - 04:17 PM From Wikipedia; The Shrine of the Three Kings (German Dreikönigsschrein) is a reliquary said to contain the bones of the Biblical Magi, also known as the Three Kings or the Three Wise Men. The shrine is a large gilded and decorated triple sarcophagus placed above and behind the high altar of Cologne Cathedral. It is considered the high point of Mosan art and the largest reliquary in the western world. Legend recounts that the "relics of the Magi" were originally situated at Constantinople, but brought to Milan in an oxcart by Eustorgius I, the city's bishop, to whom they were entrusted by the Emperor Constantine in 314. The relics of the Magi were taken from Milan by Holy Roman Emperor Fredrick Barbarossa and given to the Archbishop of Cologne, Rainald of Dassel, eight centuries later, in 1164. "I Saw Three Ships (Come Sailing In)" is a traditional and popular Christmas carol from England. A variant of its parent tune "Greensleeves", the earliest printed version of "I Saw Three Ships" is from the 17th century, possibly Derbyshire, and was also published by William Sandys in 1833. The reference to three ships is thought to originate in the three ships that bore the purported relics of the Biblical magi to Cologne Cathedral in the 12th century. Another possible reference is to Wenceslaus II, King of Bohemia, who bore a coat of arms "Azure three galleys argent". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,# Date: 29 Feb 16 - 04:55 PM http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/i_saw_three_ships.htm Sheet music from 1833 as mentioned by henryp. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 23 Dec 20 - 01:42 PM Malcolm Douglas derides Bruce Cockburn's suggestion that the ships refer to camels. "Bruce Cockburn's camels were silly enough; unless we are careful, the next thing we know, those "ships" will be flying saucers. " (mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=54593#1375943 ... 11 Jan 05 - 12:20 AM) I have heard since youth that in this song the ships referred to the camels of the "three" wise men. I believe I heard this from a preacher's pulpit. To support this view I refer to Arab poetry, some predating Islam, that call the camel, the "ship of the desert." "Arab poets have often called the camel the ‘ship of the desert.” Long ago, Saydah Dhu alRumma said that his she-camel was a safiinat al-barr or land ship. His poem stated “a land-ship whose reins beneath my cheek are passed.” (Dhu lRumma, Diwan, edited by Charlile Henry Hayes Macartney, Cambridge, 1919, page 638)" (https://nabataea.net/explore/history/the-camel-and-the-nabataeans/) "The camel is the 'ship of the desert,' and the sighting far off of another rider engenders tensions similar to those experienced by seafaring travelers in the days of ships of sail, viz, is the unknown stranger friend or foe?" (https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1525/ae.1976.3.4.02a00140). "˜The ship of the desert, the donkey of the sea". The camel in early Mesopotamia revisited.Birkat Shalom. Studies in the Bible, ancient Near Eastern literature, and postbiblical Judaism (Horowitz 1959, https://ixtheo.de/Record/1589764110). " ...the desert and the sea “are part of the basic poetic repertoire in Early Arabic”. For the desert poets, the camel journey (takhallu), one of the three sections of the ode, was to illustrate metaphorical re-enactment: the desert/sea symbolising vastness—endless time while the camel/ship’s movement is depicting symmetry and coordination. Consider the imagery of the camel driver pleasantly mounted for a long journey and the dromedary’s swaying pace, compared with the mariner on the ship sailing with a favourable wind as she rocks forward, backward and sideways in the ocean. " (Classic Ships of Islam, Chapter Ten) The ship-camel comparison, metaphorically or literally, is a classical theme. One shares the poet’s experience poetically and emotionally. There are several examples, but a general portrayal of such an iden-ti cation is lively in the poem of Zuhayr b. Ab Sulm (d. after 627 CE);. (Classic Ships of Islam, Chapter Ten, pp 277-278, series Handbook of Oriental Studies - section One - The Near and Middle East E-Book ISBN: 9789047423829Publisher: BrillOnline Publication Date: 01 Jan 2008). "Tarafa is the only one of the Seven Poets who compares camels to ships. In his opening verses, the camels that bore away his beloved are likened to "ships sailing from Aduli"; and in verse 28, he says that the neck of his own camel "resembles the stern of a ship floating high on the billowy Tigris." Nearly one third of the poem is taken up with what Sir W. Jones terms "a long and no very pleasing description" of the poet's camel; yet we must suppose this minute detail of the points of an animal so indispensable to desert life in Arabia to have been very highly appreciated by the poet's countrymen; and the reader is recompensed for his patience by the fine simile with which it concludes: "She floats proudly along with her flowing tail, as the dancing-girl floats at the banquet of her lord, and spreads the long white skirts of her trailing robe"—a simile which suggests a pleasing image to the reader's mind." (Arabian Poetry: Introduction, https://sacred-texts.com/isl/arp/arp005.htm). Sincerely, Gargoyle Thank you Malcolm - you were one of the greats and - can still stir passion. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Dec 20 - 03:55 PM Without proper and convincing documentation all of it is conjecture. If as Henry says the earliest extant version is 17th century the ship legend seems to me more plausible. Would a sea journey have been preferable to a journey across the Alps in the 12th century? Quite possibly. The earliest version refers to the carrying of relics or bones, not gifts for the new-born king. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Murpholly Date: 23 Dec 20 - 05:16 PM The bones of the three wise men was carried by ship to Cologne.l There was a harbour in Hull called Bethlehem and thus the carol. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 23 Dec 20 - 08:00 PM Steve - Your pissing is not clear. BONES RELICS? The "ship" is obviously a poetic metaphor/similie. Sincerely, Gargoyle Please establish and defend your. statement. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey Date: 24 Dec 20 - 06:45 AM I would seriously doubt anything emanating from Paul Davenport! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Dec 20 - 04:12 PM I'd rather go with Paul, Malcolm and Joseph Ritson over 'preachers' pulpits' and early Arabic literature, when as far as we know the song is no older than the 17th century. As for camels=ships of the desert, there's absolutely no need to go to Arabic literature, the idea has been worldwide for many centuries, but that doesn't mean it is likely to apply here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey Date: 24 Dec 20 - 05:18 PM Sorry Steve you have lost me! There seem to be lots of strange notions on this thread (nothing new there). The trip by boat seems like a long way round to me - Cologne is 150 miles from the mouth of the Rhine - against the flow that could be a long haul. But then they probably were not in a hurry. Lots of hymns have imagery within them that don't necessarily have any basis in fact. And don't get me started on the "glorious" dead. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 25 Dec 20 - 09:09 AM Lots of hymns have imagery within them that don't necessarily have any basis in fact. Absolutely, Malcolm, which is why only conjecture is possible here. Trip by boat. Not at all. Even in this country as recently as the 18th century transport by boat was far preferable to that on non-existent roads. There were no tunnels through the Alps and little routes that could be negotiated by vehicles. Also going through the Med and round by the Channel they would have plenty of opportunities to stop over and enhance their religious prestige. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey Date: 25 Dec 20 - 08:53 PM Steve I'm not thrilled by conjecture - that I leave to Paul Davenport - seems to be his specialist subject. Your favouring of the watery route certainly has merit but surely they would have stayed closer to the continent by choice - prevailing winds etc. Or maybe they just fancied a jolly in Hull! cheers |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Dec 20 - 03:21 PM Malcolm Legend has it they were hit by a mighty storm that blew them onto the east coast so they dropped into the Humber for shelter. Very plausible for one vessel, but I'm not sure I get all 3. Hull would have barely existed in 1164. Ravenserr perhaps. I don't really do mythology, but if it gives some credence to ballads I'll listen. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST Date: 27 Dec 20 - 05:50 AM Here's what Glostrad has to say: A popular Christmas carol ever since the 17th century when a version appears in Forbes’s Cantus. The singability of the tune and the repetition make it an easy song to remember but the geographical and historical incongruities of the story make it a curiosity. The rumour has persisted that the song is actually about the skulls of the Three Wise Men being transported by sea to Cologne Cathedral in Germany. This theory seems reinforced by a copy sent to the Rev Baring-Gould in the late 19th century “as sung by the boatmen upon the Humber”, namely: I saw three ships come sailing by, I saw three ships come sailing by, By, by, by, I saw three ships come sailing by. I asked them what they’d got on board. They said that they had got three crawns (=”crowns” =”skulls”). I asked them where they was taking them to. They said they was going to Coln upon Rhine. I asked them where they was bringing them from. They said they was coming from Bethlehem. But this is a single version from a single source and the trail runs cold at that point. No mention of Hull. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Origins: I Saw Three Ships 7 HULL From: GUEST,henryp Date: 27 Dec 20 - 11:23 AM Welcome to the 'Songs of the West' website. This website describes the life and work of Sabine Baring-Gould and his song collection made in Devon and Cornwall at the end of the nineteenth century. I saw three ships Ref: P3, 24 (406), Roud 700, VWML Ref. SBG/1/3/38 This version of the well known song was sent to Baring-Gould by Lewis Davis of Pinner, who had heard it sung by boatmen on the River Humber. Davis was an artist and drew the illustrations for Baring-Gould's article 'Among the Western Song Men' (English Illustrated Magazine, Vol. 9, p. 468 – 477) I saw three ships come sailing by, I saw three ships come sailing by, By, by, I saw three ships come sailing by. I asked them what they'd got aboard, I asked them what they'd got aboard, Board, board, I asked them what they'd got aboard. They said they'd got their crowns aboard, They said they'd got their crowns aboard, Crowns, crowns, They said they'd got their crowns aboard. I asked them where they were taking to, I asked them where they were taking to, To, to, I asked them where they were taking to. They said they was going to Coln upon Rhine, They said they was going to Coln upon Rhine, Coln, Coln, They said they was going to Coln upon Rhine. I asked them where they came from, (I asked them where they came from, From, from, I asked them where they came from.) They said they came from Bethlehem, They said they came from Bethlehem, Beth, Beth, They said they came from Bethlehem. * Some words and verses are conjectural and some words have been amended from dialect. A copy of Baring-Gould's notebook is available on the VWML website; https://www.vwml.org/record/SBG/1/3/38# |
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