BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 05:04 AM

"Jim, you either continue the pretence of "democracy""
True democracy is when we all have a voice - the only voice the ordinary people have at the present time is when they take to the streets.
Trump has bought his way to where he is - how democratic is that - if he can run roughshod over 'democracy', why not the man in the street?
"Systemic change can only come from education of the population, "
Utter nonsense - the system that is in need of change controls the machinery of education and the media - no system has ever allowed itself to be replaced without violent offering opposition - civil wars, military and political coups and open repression - all real change has been brought about by violent reaction to all these.
That small groups of people should express their feelings towards this rabble-rousing hate-monger is far from fascism, quite the opposite, and you really should hang your head in shame at such a suggestion - but there again - Trump is from a 'reliable gene pool'.   
It's rather typical that you should blame us all for the failures, weaknesses and problems of the N.H.S. and education, rather than an ailing society which finds them both unprofitable and inconvenient and would be glad to see them put into private hands, just like the good old days.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 04:47 AM

Jim, you either continue the pretence of "democracy" or you show the evil underbelly of the Capitalist system.
There is no chance that the system will "come clean" about how it really operates.

Systemic change can only come from education of the population, it is too late for the revolution, they are far too well organised.
Education involves the removal of personal financial aspiration as a driver for the economy and society. Without its removal, any nationalised health or education programme is doomed to failure.
That failure is already evident in the NHS and the UK education system, both being abused by those who run them, those who work in them and many of those who use them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 04:30 AM

".I saw the disruption in Chicago, it looked like fascism to me,"
Describing those who showed their opposition to Trump the way they did as 'fascists' shows an ignorance of what Trump is and is doing and it is deeply insulting to people who care enough to stop him - it is tantamount to saying the same of those who took to the streets of Britain to oppose Mosely and his Blackshirts.
Trump's campaign has been hate-filled, belligerent, devisive and threatening to millions of Americans - much of it verges on open racism.
It would be surprising and a little disappointing if he had not been met with some half-decent opposition, rather than the political waffle we have seen so far - lets hope for more of it.
He is a crude political thug whose debating skills are little more than rabble-rousing and in the unthinkable event of him winning America will end up with a Reagan/Bush/Goldwater/Joe McCarthy all rolled into one, without the dubious skills of his political forbears - a hate-monger at the time when the world desperately needs a peacemaker.
WHAT HIS OWN KIND ARE SAYING   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 03:15 AM

:~/ Afraid it is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 01:56 AM

I'm still giggling over the comment that in The USA this is an election whilst to the rest of us it's an intelligence test..😂

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 16 - 12:36 AM

Donuel: "It is about a Casino owner that runs for President of the United States.
All the while he is placing Vegas bets on the odds of winning or losing. Meanwhile His casino is so highly leveraged he can not pay the interest."

While, meanwhile the interest on the 'loans' for printing money, is so highly leveraged we can't pay our national 'debt'.....so they back the two parties, they pay off to make that happen...and the two parties get to promote more debt, and fool people that it's for their own 'good'. When that gets called to the attention of the people, the two parties scream bloody murder...then you get two 'outsider' candidates(Trump and Sanders), who speak to the anger of the people, and the 'establishment' of status quo, do everything to discredit them.
That being said, without those who understand that, favoring either one.

Just an objective observation.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 08:49 PM

Watch the hijinks ensue when a casino owner running for President bets against himself and says the worst things imaginable to win his bet. But instead he loses billions UNTIL he switches strategy and makes enough money to buy China.

Don't miss 'Ocean's 88' now at Wallgreen's lottery counter.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 08:25 PM

May I recommend a new novel "Ocean's 88"

It is about a Casino owner that runs for President of the United States.
All the while he is placing Vegas bets on the odds of winning or losing. Meanwhile His casino is so highly leveraged he can not pay the interest. He starts taking his presidential bets and winnings to pay the interest with chips to keep his financial difficulty a secret.

The Vegas gaming board gets wind of this. Read the dramatic twisted conclusion when the future of the UNITED STATES is in the hands of Tony Toenails, Heindrich Rummp and multi national corporate stock owners.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 08:19 PM

Thank you, frogprince.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: frogprince
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 06:34 PM

There are links for Cruz and Rubio spliced in the rundown on Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: frogprince
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 06:30 PM

And here's the page I thought I was getting

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: frogprince
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 06:25 PM

Here's at least somethin' on candidate positions, including a bunch of the dropouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 06:07 PM

Could anyone point me to a single Donald Trump policy? A published and endorsed political platform? For that matter I'd like to see any from Republican candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 04:26 PM

Who said we want change? We want the existing system to work better. We don't want self-centered despots to break things. It is continually suggested that "insiders" and life-long politicians are a problem. Some of them are, but most of them aren't. They are working in public service - just like teachers, librarians, state and federal employees, and more. Trump is clueless as to how government really works. The learning curve is treacherous for an outsider whose main skills are grandstanding and firing people.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 04:20 PM

Akenaton Even your namesake was a renegade populist winning candidate for Pharaoh. I will not condemn or condone your selection but something tells me , you may in the final analysis go for Trump.
In this country the secret ballot is still the norm.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:49 PM

ake, when you say: "demonstrators have the right to demonstrate, not disrupt a legal political rally ", do you mean they have the right to show up but not to speak?

Question: When a non-supporter feels that it is imperative to gain the attention of his country in regards to the non-appropriateness of an individual seeking office- and getting perilously close to it - what would you advise that person/group to do? Personally, I think that many of Trump's "supporters" have no idea of what life would be like under his rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:24 PM

Acme....I saw the disruption in Chicago, it looked like fascism to me, demonstrators have the right to demonstrate, not disrupt a legal political rally regardless if whether you support or oppose the views being promoted.
I disregard what happened in Chicago completely and condemn it, as you would quite rightly do if Mrs Clinton's meetings were being hi-jacked.

The black folks I refer to were at peaceful meetings.....not many but enough and some spoke quite forcibly.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:12 PM

Mr Sanders of course, and arguably Mr Trump.

If you want change you have to split the cosy PUB/DEM monopoly.
Perhaps Mr Trump will be forced to lead a third party?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 02:26 PM

a vote for Mrs Clinton seems to me to be a reinforcement of the status quo

Oh yes??? As opposed to?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 01:01 PM

I had a conversation today with a middle aged man who seems to know what is at stake regarding a runaway right wing movement.

As strangers h took me or an academic and I sensed he was being sincere.
Incredibly he admitted he would leave this country if a Trump order took over despite the safeguards America has to prevent a take over of the Republic by know nothings.

When Ebbie said something similar I assume it was half in jest.

I am sobered that people have considered escape rather than than stay.

It seems so soon to consider such things today.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 12:53 PM

I assume that everybody has picked up the news that an enquiry by The Economist team has listed Thump as more of a threat to world security than Al Qaeda
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 12:34 PM

On Facebook today there is an offering (paraphrased): To American voters this is an election. To foreigners it is an intelligence test.

There is one hopeful element in all this: We can't go much lower. We ARE dumbed down.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 12:33 PM

Yes Charmion that is exactly what I was getting at further up the thread.   It's not about "electability". It's about educating the populace and a vote for Mrs Clinton seems to me to be a reinforcement of the status quo?

The PUB/ DEM machine has America in chains.....sometime, somewhere, somehow, the mould has to be broken.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 11:56 AM

I like how you put "protesters" rather than protesters. Helps him get things into his perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 09:39 AM

I hope the Blickifier is working today, 'cause here's a really interesting video on HuffPost's Facebook page:

Win or Lose, Bernie Sanders Has Changed America

It's a public post, so non-members should be able to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 09:11 AM

The black faces in the Trump rallies are called "protesters," Akenaton. They have something AGAINST Trump. And they are often pushed, shoved, and punched on their way out while being "escorted" out of the room.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 08:15 AM

In many ways, akenaton, this election is about something more than just this election. It's about the kind of world people want to have. Every vote cast is the expression of a person's desire to have things work in certain ways. Forget the candidates for a while and look at the audiences. They will tell more about a candidate than any pundit.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 07:30 AM

Ake, there are very few black people at the Trump rallies that I've seen on television.

One of his ads implies quite the opposite.

He's been endorsed by a small group of black pastors, one of whom has strongly urged Bernie Sanders to turn to Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 07:18 AM

Hey Guys, you in the USA, this is one of you. He has the right idea.
www.ted.com/talks/arthur_brooks_a_conservative_s_plea_let_s_work_together
But if ever there was a demonstration of "pissing into the wind" this was it, sadly.

(Trump and wind - pun intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 05:48 AM

Hi Don, I don't care about PC nonsense, but seriously, I've seen a couple of meetings where black people were on camera supporting Mr Trump and there appeared to be quite a few black faces in the audience?

I suppose they could have been "plants", but it's even stranger to see supposed centre left people on here supporting someone who is in the employment of the corporations and has a dreadful record in foreign affairs?

Is it really as # says, all about winning elections where the electorate have no real choice?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 05:02 AM

Meanwhile here in The UK, The Guardian newspaper has run an article reminding us that The Simpsons, sixteen years ago, did an episode looking into the future portraying The USA hitting rock bottom. They came up with ludicrous ideas and ran with the one where Trump becomes President.

You know, there a myth over here that Americans don't understand irony. One way of blowing the idea out of the water I suppose.....

Mind you, some over here are somewhat confused over language. Left and right over here would translate as commie and goddam commie, whilst Bernie's left would be comfortable in the cabinet of our rather right wing government. So this is why we seemed confused when Obama didn't close Guantanamo, based his health reforms, however well intentioned on the share price of a few insurance multinationals and carried on bombing the fuck out of the Middle East. We were reliably informed he was left wing...

Still, all a sideshow. I have a degree of faith in the US electorate. Bush got in first time on a dubious technicality and second time by scaring people into wanting strong arm foreign policy. I spend more time reading articles about what President Elect Clinton is going to do than irrelevant sideshow circuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 04:23 AM

No Lynn

It only means he's learnt to count that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 18 Mar 16 - 03:58 AM

The other day I happened to notice that the edition of USA Today at the local newsagent had a cover picture of Trump giving a two fingered gesture that we in the UK know well as 'Go forth and multiply'..........

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 07:26 PM

'I see quite a number of "black folks" speaking at Mr Trump's meetings?'

Stupidity isn't restricted to non-Blacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 07:17 PM

Does my Tom song work better with " brown folks"?
Or is this 60 year old song not PC enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 06:12 PM

I see quite a number of "black folks" speaking at Mr Trump's meetings?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 04:17 PM

The trump folks hate the black folks
and the black folks hate the trump folks
To grate all but the right folks
Is American as Donald's lies

Lets hear it for guns and walls
camps and jails
That's where all our neighbors work
when DONALD tRUMP acts like a jerk

Its fun to eulogize
someone you despise
the only thing you really have to fear
Is trump every day and night for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 02:53 PM

Am I alone in wondering what Tom Lehrer would make of Donald.

On the subject of George W Bush, he is quoted as "I'm not tempted to write a song about George W. Bush. I couldn't figure out what sort of song I would write. That's the problem: I don't want to satirise George Bush and his puppeteers, I want to vaporize them - and that's not funny."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge on the Intel Quad Core
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 02:02 PM

I had not realised (if it be true) that Drumpf had said anything sensible about abortion or contraception.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 01:29 PM

And here's a nightmare scenario for everyone.

Cruz gets the Republican nomination.
Trump runs as an independent.
Hillary gets the Democrat nomination.
Sanders runs as an independent.

Sweet dreams.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 12:07 PM

Bernie, in the parlance of this race, has a path forward. He has ongoing money, he has a mathematical possibility to win and he has the upper hand if Hillary is indicted or stumbles

FDR had a much more favorable Congress but Bernie should still claim the sweeping changes and paths that FDR had.

It has been done before and we can do it again.

As for what music will bring us forward I prefer to be whispered to than shouted at.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 11:35 AM

Thanks, Charmion and Acme. I am for Bernie Sanders and if he should get the nomination AND the presidency mine will join the voices of millions. However, if he does not win either, I will work for Hillary Clinton just as hard.

I think Hillary would have a good chance at ramming through a good many of her plans. She knows how the powers work, is forceful and practical and realistic and she has friends in high places. True, she also has enemies in high places, and a goodly share of the country's voters don't trust her. But. I think she may go down in history as another FDR.

Bernie, on the other hand, dreams big and has, for years. That's part of the alarm in my mind. He has been in the legislature for years- and nothing has changed. Indeed, things have gotten much worse.

Can you imagine Bernie being more successful in pushing his agenda than the President has been?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 11:30 AM

....good riddance to bad rubbish....whew.

This was posted to the closed thread. Maybe it's acceptable, maybe not:

"Trump doesn't know it yet, but he will become one of the guys that he hates very soon. Soon he will be a loser. He's a very poor man who only possesses money."
Alejandro González Iñárritu,
page 64, Rolling Stone magazine,
February 25, 2016

This interview, I would guess, took place before the Academy Awards ceremony with its awards to The Revenant.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 09:59 AM

Thanks Charmion and #.....excellent summation.

I still think that to change society will take several decades and a start must be made somewhere.
In the UK Mr Corbyn was elected leader by the rank and file left, he has no hope of winning an election to form a government. he realises that and most of his supporters realise that.....but the important thing is that he will be explaining and educating the UK public on how socialism is going to work.
We could have voted for a Blair clone(like Mrs Clinton) who could have been "nationally electable" but in another decade we would be no further forward regarding the construction of a fairer society and economic structure.

This is the situation with the US, people with a socialist viewpoint need to play the long game and part of that game is to fracture the stranglehold that the corporations and their servants the Political Parties have over the socioeconomic system.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 09:51 AM

Charmion nailed it the first time, a perfect 10. Many like what Bernie says, but know that an obstructionist House and Senate aren't going to let it happen. Hillary has been around the block a few times and knows how to broker a deal. If you'll remember, she was roundly criticized for working on a health care initiative during Bill's terms in office - the insurance companies ganged up when they got wind of her interest in a single-payer system that cut them out. Many of us hope that is still lurking in the background, and and older, wiser, and case-hardened Hillary can get closer to that ideal.

Trump, to his (minuscule) credit, doesn't disagree with everything the GOP tends to. He thinks birth control and abortion should be available, and some of his business and trade attitudes have caught the ears of a few Democrats. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day - don't assume because he takes a couple of more liberal stances that he would serve a liberal agenda. Far from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 08:49 AM

For the party of Ronald Reagan, its Mourning in America

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 08:43 AM

We all come at these events in terms of being all about Trumo.

In one sense it is BUT it is equally about all the people who will vote for Trump.

There are Americans who are prominent on this website, who are considering voting for Trump. Right now they are worried about their status and their persona that they have carefully constructed. They risk losing respect should they announce their support for Donald.

At some point they will feel that it is OK to stump for Trump.
It might be after the convention or even later.

Profiling who these people are tend to the religious side. They will nor be the usual gang we would most expect.

I have a time machine that travels into the eternal NOW. It doesn't go to the past or future. It delivers just a simple message.
It is a message that if the German people had heard they would not have allowed Adolf near the Chancellery.

What is that message that is stronger than the mob, stronger than emotional lies that feel good? What words will make them
WAKE UP

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: GUEST,#
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 08:21 AM

The 'left' you keep talking about doesn't exist as a cohesive organization. Neither does the 'right'. Never has. Look at large interest groups to consdier what that means. The groups under the umbrella of left/right politics change from year to year and it's easy to assume that either group 'thinks' as a unit. Neither does.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 07:16 AM

Ake, don't be disingenuous. Even a cursory look at Senator Sanders' own website -- www.berniesanders.com (blickifier not working yet) -- tells the tale.

The reasonable answer on Senator Sanders' support (or lack of same) is that not enough Democratic Party members believe that he can push his program through Congress.

Most of what he says makes perfect sense to Brits like you and Canadians like me, who have lived most or all of lives with socialized medicine and substantial public support to higher education, but these ideas are political poison in the United States. Senator Sanders proposes to fund his program with swinging taxes on corporations, Wall Street speculators and the super-rich, but you and I both know that such a plan has no hope of success unless the Democrats take both the Senate and the House of Representatives in a landslide, as well as the presidential election.

President Obama's health care plan is badly flawed precisely because it was designed around the insurance industry, a huge money-spinner in the U.S. economy, and money-pit in the household economies of American families. Senator Sanders' plan would cut the insurance industry out of most health-care spending. How do you think that's going to fly, knowing what you should know by now about how politics is financed in the United States?

Likewise, taxing Wall Street to fund post-secondary education for the un-monied classes is a non-starter in the absence of a revolution in public thinking about the significance of (a) education and (b) social mobility to the well-being of the American polity.

I'm not holding my breath on that.

The pragmatic Mrs Clinton, with all her history of compromises, looks like somebody who can muscle a legislative program past the obstacle course of Congress -- Realpolitik is her middle name. Democrats more interested in winning the election than in overturning their society are planning to vote for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump II- The Horror Continues
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Mar 16 - 06:00 AM

I am more concerned about the demise of Mr Sanders than speculation on the prospects of Mr Trump.

No one has yet given a reasonable answer as to why the left are not supporting him but are supporting someone who is centre right ...at best?