Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 11:29 AM

A similar version "The Dublin Murder Ballad" with an extra measure was recorded by Patrick Galvin in his "Irish Street Songs," 1956 (Riverside RLP 12-613 LP). He says, "The song is fairly common in Ireland, but even more so in Scotland." This refers to the Robertson and 1954 Maggie Stewart recordings.

Ed McCurdy's version is taken from that recording and was recorded in 1956 on Electra. McCurdy's version appears in the Jack Horntip Collection (online) without accreditation.

The ballad is based loosely on "Polly's Love" broadside where Polly's ghost rips him tears him and cut's him in three. Here the role is reversed. The first and second stanzas are loosely derived from:

In fair Warwick city in fair Warwickshire
A handsome young damsel oh! lived there
A handsome young man courted her to be his dear
And he was by trade a ship's carpenter.

and these stanzas:

One morning so early before it was day,
He came to his Polly; these words he did say:
Oh, Polly, oh, Polly, you must go with me
Before we are married our friends for to see.

He led her through groves and valleys so steep
Which caused this young damsel to sigh and to weep.
Oh, William, oh, William, you have led me astray
On purpose my innocent life to betray.

The villain is named Thomas Brown by Robertson and his lover is Mary Brown. The first two lines of additional Irish stanza is from "green grows the laurel."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 01 Aug 16 - 11:05 AM

TY Steve,

According to Jeannie Robertson her version of this ballad variant was learned in Aberdeen about 1918:

To listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/fullrecord/24303/1

Miss Brown of Dublin City- Recorded by Jeannie Robertson; Sept. 1953
Reporters - Hamish Henderson; Jean Ritchie; She recorded it under the title of "The Murder of Thomas Brown in October 1953. It was covered by MacColl as "Miss Brown."

In Dublin's fair city
In Dublin's fair town
In Dublin's fair city
There lived a Miss Brown.

For she courted a sailor
For seven long years,
And from the beginning
He called her his dear.

But one morning very early,
All by the break o' day.
For he came to her window
And to her he did say:

"Rise up bonnie Mary
And come along with me;
For such things they will happen
And such things we will see."

But he took her over mountains
And he took her over dales;
And he left his poor Mary
For to weep and for to wail[1].

"Oh sailor, Oh sailor,
Come spare me my life,"
But out of his pocket,
He drew a pocket knife.

Oh he stabbed her and he ripped her
And he cut her in three
And he buried poor Mary
Underneath a green tree.

1. cry (hard to hear)

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 04:30 PM

Hi Richie,
Off the top of my head in the British Isles travellers are particularly noted for stringing together fragments of different ballads into some sort of cohesive narrative. Not all travellers do this and the method is not exclusive to travellers. Early collectors and antiquarians did similar things with much longer ballads.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 01:04 PM

Hi,

Another Irish (?) version is traditional Irish singer Frank Harte's version from a 1975 recording:

Miss Brown

Oh in Dublin's fair city, in Dublin's fair town,
In Dublin's fair city, there dwelt a Miss Brown.
And she courted a sailor for seven long years,
And from the beginning, he called her his dear.

And one morning very early, all by the break of the day,
He came to her cottage and to her did say:
"Rise up, lovely Mary, and come along with me.
Strange things they will happen; and strange sights things we will see."

Well he took her over mountain;and he took her over dell,
And she heard through the morning the sound of a bell.
All over the ocean, all over the sea,
Ye fair maids of Dublin, take warning from me.

"O sailor, o sailor, come spare me my life,"
When out of his pocket, he drew a sharp knife.
And he ripped her and tore her and cut her in three,
Then he laid his poor Mary underneath a green tree.

Oh green grows the laurel and red grows the rose
And the raven will follow, wherever he goes;
A cloud will hang over this murderer's head
He shall never rest easy now that Mary be dead.

It's easier to see the "Polly's Love" connection and the "green grows" connection in the last stanza,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 30 Jul 16 - 12:56 PM

Hi,

I'm back again, trying to finish Gosport Tragedy.

I'm not sure if I understand the origin of the "Polly's Love" variant found in Aberdeen as well as County Dublin. Joe Éinniú called it, The Dublin Murder Ballad (also "Miss Brown" "Murder of Mary Brown" etc.), and he sang just one stanza:

In Dublin's fair city, in Dublin's fair town
There dwelt a pretty maiden, her name was Mary Brown
She courted a sailor for seven long years
And at the beginning he called her his dear.

If anyone has information about versions and how or when it became attached to the broadside "Can't you love who you please" (usually just the last stanza0 please let me know.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 16 - 08:49 AM

I'll take either! Percy French?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 07:13 PM

W McGonagall rather than O Nash, I should have said...

LoL

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 02:56 PM

Oooh, thanks, Brian!

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Apr 16 - 04:32 AM

Worthy of Ogden Nash, that, Steve!

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 02:38 PM

The line should actually read.
'There is a spirit coming hither,
She's got a little baby with her.'

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 16 - 05:00 AM

A prosodic and semantic observation —

I always say that one of the glories of the language of folksong is its knack of teetering on the edge of doggerel but never quite tumbling over. But some versions recently posted do not succeed in this.

In particular, the one two posts back, for the sake of the rhyme, confuses,"hence"

which = "away from here"

with its opposite, "hither"

which = "to here" —

Most unfortunate because it contradicts the sense which even near-doggerel should avoid doing.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 21 Apr 16 - 05:38 PM

Hi,

I want to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. Certainly this is starting point. I'm still putting my US/Canadian versions on my site and have over 100. After that I'll post some conclusions. I have new book deal with Mel Bay yesterday for "Country Music: The Early Years" and another book, "Popular child Ballads" so I'll be working on those two books in addition to posting here.

This is "Pretty Polly" from Mountain Ballads for Social Singing by James Watt Raine; Cecil J Sharp; Berea, Ky.: Berea College Press, 1923. The melody is from Sharp's EFFSA, version I. The text is from an unknown source collected by Raine in Kentucky and in stanza 11 it has Pretty Polly returning as a ghost with her baby- a very rare and unique stanza in Appalachia. Here's the ending from stanza 9:


9. The ship was lying ready, all on the sea side,
He swore by his maker, he'd sail the other side.

10. And whilst he was sailing, in full heart's content,
The ship sprung a leak and to the bottom she went.

11. And there was Petty Polly, all in a gore of blood,
In her lily-white arms was an infant of God[1].

12. O William, O William, you've no time to stay,
There's a debt to the devil you're bound to pay.

1. the expression in stanza eleven seems to mean, "I call God to witness, she had an infant in her arms. [Raine's footnote]

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 09:12 PM

Hi,

The version titled "Pretty Polly" in West Virginia Folklore - Vol. 7, no. 4, pages 57-59 (Summer 1957) as pointed out by Brian Peters is a composite ballad. The end of the ballad (stanza 8 onward) is from "The Sailor and the Ghost" an 1805 British broadside (Harding B10(68), Bodleian Collection) found in the US, Canada, and UK. Other names include "The Sailor's Tragedy," "The Sea Ghost," "The Dreadful Ghost," and "The Ghost So Grim." Here are the corresponding ending stanzas from The Universal Songster, or Museum of Mirth vol. 2, George Routledge and Sons, London, New York.

The Sailor and the Ghost of His Deserted Dearie (excerpt)

10. Down on the deck this young man goes,
And to his captain his mind disclosed;
There is a spirit coming hence,
I pray you, stand in my defense.

11. Upon the deck the captain goes,
And there he spied a fatal ghost;
Ghost, -"Captain," said she, "you must and can
With speed help me to such a man."

12. Capt. - "In St. Helen's this young man died,
And in St. Helen's his body lies."
Ghost, -"Captain," said she, "do not say so,
He is dwelling down in your ship below.

13. "And if you stand up in his defense,
A mighty storm I will send hence;
Will cause your men and you to weep;
And leave you, sleeping, in the deep."

14. Down from the deck this captain goes,
And brought this young man to his foes.
She fixed her eyes on him so grim,
Which made him tremble, ev'ry limb.

15. "It was well known I was a maid,
When first by you I was betrayed;
I am a spirit, come for thou,
You balked me once, But I'll have you now."

16. Then, to preserve both ship and men,
Into the boat they forced him then;
The boat sunk down in a flame of fire,
Which made the sailors all admire.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 08:35 PM

Hi,

I forgot to add that Findlater's version (above) appears under the title, "In Gosport of Late" in the book, "Sitting Out the Winter in the Orkney Islands: Folksong Acquisition in Northern Scotland" by Nancy Cassell McEntire 1990.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 05:48 PM

TY, for posting the broadside Brian. Here's the transcription of Findlater by Jim Brown. TY Jim. This is similar to the Deming Broadside printed in the US in the early 1800s- perhaps from a missing British broadside of circa 1700.

The Gosport Tragedy
Sung by Ethel Findlater and Elsie Johnston, recorded by Alan Bruford, Dounby, Orkney, 1967
(http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/63592/3;jsessionid=4D0FD6C3DB2D2A0DB3AA4E5A490596FB )

1. In Gosport of late a fair damsel did dwell,
For wit and for beauty few could her excel;
A young man did court her for to be his dear,
And he to his trade was a ship's carpenter.

2. With blushes more sweet than the roses in June.
She says, "My dear William for to wed I'm too young.
For young men they are fickle I can see very plain,
When a maiden proves kindness they quickly disdain."

3. "Oh, my charming sweet Molly, how dare you say so,
Your [1] beauty's the haven to which I would go;
And if I find channel my ship for to steer,
I then would cast anchor and stay with my dear."

4. It was all in vain that she strove to deny
For he by his cunningness he made her comply,
And by false deception he did her betray
And in some hellish pathway he led her astray.

5. As soon as with child this young damsel did prove,
She quickly sent the tidings to her faithless love
Who swore by the heavens that he would prove true,
And he never would marry a damsel but you.

6. Time passed on a while and again we do hear,
His ship must be sailing, for [2] sea he must steer;
Which grieved this poor damsel and wounded her heart,
To think that so soon from her love she must part.

7. With tender affections he to her he did say,
I'll marry my Molly ere I go away;
And if that to-morrow my love will ride down
The ring we will buy, our fair union to crown.

8. With tender embraces, they parted that night,
He [3] promised to meet her next morning at light;
But he says, "My dear Molly ere we married be,
We must go on a visit some friends for to see."

9. He led her through hills and through valleys so deep
Till at length this young damsel began for to weep;
She says, "My dear William, you have led me astray,
In hopes of my innocent life to betray."

10. "Oh, yes, you have guessed right, on earth don't you see,
For all the last night I was digging your grave";
A grave and a spade lying near she did see,
Which made this young damsel to weep bitterly.

11. When poor ruined Molly did hear him say so,
The tears from her eyes like a fountain did flow;
Saying, "Treacherous William, the worst of mankind,
Is this the bride's bed I expected to find?"

12. "Oh, pity my infant and spare me my life,
Let me live in my shame since I can't be your wife;
And don't take my life lest my soul you betray,
And you to perdition would be hurried away.

13. With hands white as lilies in sorrow she wrung,
Imploring for mercy saying, "What have I done
To you dearest William so comely and fair?
Can you murder your true love that loved you so dear?"

14. He says, "There's no time for disputing to stand,"
And he instantly taking a knife in his hand;
He pierced her fair body while the blood it did flow,
And in the cold grave her fair body he threw.

15. He covered it over, and quick hastened on
Leaving none but the little birds her sad fate to bemoan:
On board ship he entered without more delay,
And set sail for Plymouth the very next day.

16. A young man named Stewart, of courage most bold,
Who happened one night to be late in the hold;
When a beautiful damsel to him did appear,
And she in her arms held an infant so dear.

17. Being merry with liquor, he ran to embrace,
Transported with joy at beholding her face;
And to his amazement soon vanished away,
Which he ran and told the captain without more delay.

18. The Captain soon then [4] summoned his jolly ship's crew,
Saying, "I fear, my brave fellows that some one of you
Has murdered a damsel ere he came away,
Whose innocent ghost now haunts you[5] on the sea.

19. "Whoever he be if the truth he confess,
We will land him upon the first island we meet;
But whoever he be if the truth he deny,
He will be hung up on the yard's arm so high."

20. William in horror he fell on his knees,
Saying. "Poor injured ghost thy forgiveness I crave.[6]
For soon I shall follow thee down to the grave."

21. As soon as her parents the sad tidings did hear.
They sought for the body of their daughter so dear;
In the town of Southampton her body now lies,
And I hope that her soul is with God in the sky.

22. And I hope this sad tale will a warning to all
Who dare a young innocent maid to enthrall
In Oxford green churchyard her body was laid
And for a monument [7] there's a stone at her head. [8]

[1] 1969: "For your"
[2] 1969: "to"
[3] 1969: "And he"
[4] 1969: "then" omitted
[5] 1969: "him"
[6] In 1969, this line is repeated, so the tune is complete.
[7] Unclear: sounds more like "monumento" – perhaps "monumental"? Or are the two singers singing different words, perhaps "monument" and "memento"?
[8] In 1969, these last two stanzas are omitted.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Apr 16 - 03:57 AM

Thanks Richie. That's clearly a hybrid with the 'Sailor and the Ghost' - see the link to the broadside copy I posted yesterday at 11.34. Interesting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:57 PM

Hi,

Good news: I want to thank Kevin Fredette and Jo Brown of the WVU library. Kevin sent me an entire copy of the Pretty Polly text housed at the West Virginia History Center ("West Virginia Collection"). Jim Brown got the 8th stanza right from Google books- it just didn't seem right :) Here is the entire version. Pretty Polly's ghost gets mad then she gets even!!! Check out the ending.

Pretty Polly (The Cruel Ship's Carpenter) --Contributed by Everett Smith, of Catawba, as sung by S. L. Bunner of Catawba. I have the tune of this, as sung to me by Everett Smith.)

1. It's away down in low land,
Where little Polly did dwell;
For wit and for beauty
There's none could excell.
There's a young man who courted her
All for to be his dear,
And was by trade
Was a ship's carpenter.

2. "Come, pretty Polly,
Come go along with me;
Before we get married,
A friend we will be*." (see?)
He led her through groves
And through valleys so deep,
Till last* this fair damsel (at last?)
Began for to weep.

"Hard-hearted young William,
You have led em astray,
one purpose, my in love* (on purpose my love)
And my life to betray."

3. She saw her grave dug,
And a spade standing by,
Saying, "Is this my bride's bed,
Wherein must I lie?
Hard-hearted young William,
You're worst of all men;
May the heavens award* you (reward?)
When I'm dead and gone.

4. "It's come, pretty Polly,
There's no time to stand;
While immediately taking
A knife in his hand,
He pierced her fair body
Till the heart-blood did flow
And into her grave,
Her fair body did throw.

5. In covering her over,
He turned back again;
Left none but the small birds
Her death to mourn.
Way down that redboat[1],
He's gone speedily,
And away in Portsmouth
He bound out for the sea.

6. Old Charley Stewart,
Carried so bold,
This beautiful damsel,
He chanced to behold,
This beautiful damsel
Unto him did appear,
And into her arms was
A baby so dear.

7. With screams of loud screeches[2],
Cried out . . .(in loud cries?)
Till flashes of lightning
Fell down from the skies;
Set the whole ship in
A tremble of fear;
But none saw the ghost, but[3]
A voice they did hear.


8. "Oh, Captain, Captain,
Stand my defence,
For yonder comes
The spirit hence.
It'll cause you and all your
Seamen all for to weep,
When you are slumbering
In the deep."

9. "Oh, Captain, Captain,
Can you tell me,
Where such a young
Man may be?"
In St. Island
this young man died
And in St. Island
This young man lies."

10. "Oh, Captain, Captain,
How can you say so,
While he is in
Your ship below?
If you don't go
And bring him hence,
A dreadful storm
I will commence.

11. Down deck the sea
Captain goes,
For to face
The young man* foes. (man's foes?)
She cast her eyes
On him so grim,
Which made him tremble
In every limb.

12. She caught him by the
Cuff of the coat,
And pulled him into
Her little boat.
She sank her boat in
A flame of fire,
Which caused the seamen
To admire.

My Footnotes:

1. Roxburghe broadside: On board the Bedford (Way down [on] the Bedford)
2. Roxburghe broadside: She afterward vanished with shrieks and cries,
                      Flashes of lightning did dart from her eyes;
3. It makes no sense to have "but" on this line.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 08:09 PM

Richie: carry on flattering me like that and I might even learn the ballad. Mrs York's is certainly a fine version. Thanks for posting it.

Steve: I agree that broadsides so far elusive might very well have existed. Someone at some point has written the 'Hind Horn' ballad based on the medieval epic, just as someone wrote 'Bramble Brair' based on an old tale from Bocaccio. Not sure on the detail of 'Earl Brand' - just going on the title Sharp gave in his book - and having used the title 'Cruel Ship's Carpenter' for all those 'Gosport' descendents, he isn't always reliable.

"their predecessors had might well have been much more sophisticated."

Not so sure about that. The migrants (as I understand it) were mainly from the wild border territories between England, Scotland and Ulster: poor, lawless, feuding, and all the rest. Sophisticated, maybe not.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 06:46 PM

Again, Richie, I'm having problems following you here. How can the lack of a stanza in the American oral versions be proof that the broadside came from oral tradition?

"the ballad was taken from tradition and captured in print at that moment in time." That is known to have happened mostly with material after 1800, but there is nothing to prove that the earliest print version is not the original and current thought is certainly moving towards that idea.

'broadside printers changed and elaborated the ballad text." Yes they did, but more often they shortened rather than elaborated and they were usually altering what was an earlier printed version rather than one from oral tradition.

'The Roxburghe ballad of 1720-1750, in my opinion, sounds like it has been "created from tradition." ' If by 'created from tradition' you mean the writer took traditional material and blended it with a circulating current story, that's highly likely. Also, don't forget, the writers often weren't particularly sophisticated themselves. As you progress from the 17th to the 19th centuries their status was descending all the time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 06:31 PM

Hi Brian,
I'll try to find time to check the ballads you mention for earlier broadsides, but even if I can't find them that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Regarding the unsophisticated state of the people the ballads were collected from, the earlier generations or influences their predecessors had might well have been much more sophisticated. As for there being no broadsides found by Sharp, that doesn't mean their predecessors didn't have access to them. If they had them with them when they arrived or bought them on the east coast they would be unlikely to survive all the trials of migration.

When you write 'Earl Brand' do you mean Earl Brand or Douglas Tragedy. Child lumped them together but they are 2 distinct ballads, the latter a rewrite of the former in my opinion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 04:27 PM

Now that I've read some of the comments by Brian and Steve I'd like to make an observation.

As mentioned earlier in this thread The Lord Thomas broadside was supposed to be the source of the English version of the ballad both in the British Isles and in North America. However stanza 4 of the broadside never showed up in traditional versions- therefore the versions were all from tradition and the broadside was written from tradition but the printer added stanza 4. This is provable.

I'm coming to the opinion that rather than saying "it takes very little time for a ballad to get into oral tradition from print," we should be saying, "the ballad was taken from tradition and captured in print at that moment in time."

Also that "both the traditional (ur-ballad) and the print version helped disseminate the ballad." And that "broadside printers changed and elaborated the ballad text."

The Roxburghe ballad of 1720-1750, in my opinion, sounds like it has been "created from tradition." It does not seem like it comes from the lips of the masses. I'm not doubting that some of it could be based on the events of 1726 as Fowler proposes. I just don't think this is necessarily a historical ballad- obviously Charles Stewart never met Polly's ghost - but I believe it is based on a murder in that area (because of the attached place names)- possibly at that time or earlier.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:56 PM

TY Steve for the music, I'll look at it tonight. I also emailed this to you:

I'm trying to better understand the broadside creation especially in regard to this ballad- I realize that there is some speculation. The question is: Can one assume that the broadside was written from an extant traditional ballad? In this case there are three broadsides that are somewhat distinct.

If there is no earlier ballad then how do we explain only parts of the broadside surviving? Why aren't the missing stanzas found in North America? Why are there different broadsides?

If you can post your thoughts on this Steve (or anyone) it would be a great help,

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 03:50 PM

I'm posting the corrections (TY Jim)to the excellent minor version sung by Mrs. York in 1940 which would make an excellent starting point for a ballad cover by someone like the talented Brian Peters.

Pretty Polly (corrected) Sung by Mrs. James York 1940, NC.

Come along Pretty Polly and go with me
Before we get married a friend to see.

He led her o'er hills and valleys so deep,
At last this poor damsel began to weep.

Oh William, I'm fearful you are leading me astray,
One purpose my innocent life to betray.

Come on Pretty Polly you guessed it just right
I was digging your grave the one part of last night

Her lily-white hands in horror she rose
A-crying for mercy: What have I done?

They went a bit further and what did they spy
But a grave ready dug and a spade by the side

She threw her arms 'round him and suffered no fear,
How can you kill a girl who loves you so dear?

Come on Pretty Polly, no time to stand,
He instantly drew a large knife in his hand.

He stabbed her through the heart and the blood it did flow,
And into the grave that poor body did go.

He threw some dust o'er and turned to go home
Left nothing but the birds to make a sad moan.

Oh where is Pretty Polly, oh where is she?
Oh, now I am bound for one part of the sea.

It should be commented that both Mrs York and her husband James were excellent singers, collected ballads locally and in her case, she got version from both her parents.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 02:54 PM

"The ballads you mention, Brian, should be compared with published versions from the 18th century and the early 19th. Not all of those who emigrated were poor or illiterate. Some of us still have this idea in our heads that it was only the unsophisticated who carried these ballads. That is far from the truth."

I realise that - see my comment above regarding Senator Hilliard Smith. However, having read David Hackett Fisher, the impression I have is that the majority of the migrants to the Appalachian backcountry were indeed poor and unsophisiticated.

"3 possibilities other than the usual.
Some emigrants had learnt them from published sources before they emigrated.
Some took the published materials with them.
Some had them posted over after they had settled."

The first is certainly a good possibility - that's why I was asking whether we have any early broadside evidence of those ballads that I mentioned. Point 2 is also possible, though Sharp asked his singers whether they had broadsides and didn't find a single one. Point 3 seems unlikely to have been a significant factor given what we know about the status of most of the migrants.

Yes, of course you can compare the Appalachian ballads with the usual late 18th / early 19th C Scots suspects in Child. My point was that all of those postdated the Appalachian migration, so you're not looking at the raw material. The fact that the mountain people had that large ballad repertoire projects those ballads back into early 18th C Britain. I was just wondering whether there was any direct evidence that I didn't know about. I take it that's a 'no', then?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 01:43 PM

The ballads you mention, Brian, should be compared with published versions from the 18th century and the early 19th. Not all of those who emigrated were poor or illiterate. Some of us still have this idea in our heads that it was only the unsophisticated who carried these ballads. That is far from the truth.

3 possibilities other than the usual.
Some emigrants had learnt them from published sources before they emigrated.
Some took the published materials with them.
Some had them posted over after they had settled.

Remember it takes very little time for a ballad to get into oral tradition from print.

The reason why Duncan and Greig were able to collect many Child Ballads is quite a few were heavily influenced by those published in the early 19thc. Some of Peter Buchan's 'eked out' versions for instance.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 11:34 AM

One more contribution from me.

With reference to the foregoing discussion of burlesques, I thought I'd share with those who haven't seen it this copy of 'The Sailor and the Ghost', the analogous Jonah ballad mentioned above.

Magnificent broadside illustration

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 10:04 AM

Those hybrid versions from Newfoundland and Nova Scotia are interesting but not surprising. The mass migration from the British Isles to both provinces took place in the 19th century, up to 100 years after the main Appalachian migration. By that time 'Polly's Love' would have been established in Britain, so presumably the migrants took it with them. Perhaps it then got tangled up with the 'Deming' text from the Forget-me-not songsters?

My belief is that, for all the potential influence of New World printed copies, the songs that were popular in a particular region reflected the heritage of its immigrant population. There are traces of 19th century songster material in the Appalachian collections, but relatively few Forget-me-not songs turned up there. To find the sources of the mountain repertoire we need to look at what was current in England, Scotland and Ulster in the early 18th century. Unfortunately there's very little evidence in terms of oral tradition, so all we have to go on are the earlier broadsides.

Ballads popular in the Appalachians, like 'Barbara Allen', 'Two Sisters', 'House Carpenter' and 'Matty Groves' did exist as broadsides in the appropriate time period. What, though, about 'Young Hunting', 'Hind Horn', 'Earl Brand' or 'Jack Went A-Sailing'? Do we know of any early broadside copies of those?

Hoping Steve G might have something...

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Apr 16 - 09:43 AM

I've been through the Sharp versions pretty thoroughly now. After eliminating one that doesn't look like our song, I have 34 versions mostly from Kentucky, North Carolina and Virginia, with one each from Tennessee and West Virginia.

There are very distinct regional differences in the way the song was sung. The one known in bluegrass circles as 'Pretty Polly', i.e. the shortened version with stanzas including a repeated first line (mainly twelve-bar AAB but sometimes 16-bar AAAB) is overwhelmingly associated with Kentucky. Some were notated by Sharp in 2/2 and 4/4, some in 3/4. None of the NC examples show that pattern, and nor does Jeff Stockton's from just across the Tennessee line.

The NC versions are almost all in triple time, usually with gapped scales containing a flattened third (i.e. Dorian-ish). There is a recognizable group with melodies resembling that of Mrs Tom Rice (Sharp's A version in EFSSA), examples of which turn up in KY and VA as well as NC. For example, Sharp C (Hilliard Smith) is clearly related to the Rice version both textually and melodically (Mr. Smith, incidentally, was not only a Trustee of Hindman college but also a US senator, no hillbilly he). Then there's a second, smaller group with a modal tune that's related to the Rice one. It's possible to see how the 'bluegrass PP' melody might be related in turn to these. All the NC versions but one have 16 bar stanzas following an ABCD text pattern; none has a first-line repeat.

There's also a very disparate category of 8 assorted major / Ionian tunes that don't hang together as a group. Amongst these are two very similar versions from the same part of VA, which appear from their first lines to be survivals of the 'Gosport Tragedy' – unfortunately Sharp and Karpeles didn't notate the words for these, or most of the other variants – and the Jeff Stockton broadside-based version, which is set to a tune unlike all the others. Some of these 'one-off' tunes may be borrowed from different songs, in one case clearly 'Jack O' Diamonds'.

Looking at all of that I'd say that the NC versions represent the older strain. The 12-bar type appears to have been sweeping Kentucky 100 years ago, though the older type was still hanging on there. Interestingly, a lot of those 12-bar versions came from students at Berea, Hindman and Oneida colleges. Was this the hit version of the day that appealed to the kids?

That the earliest commercial recordings of 'Pretty Polly' were by John Hammond and B F Shelton, both from Kentucky, comes as no surprise.

I'm still interested in where those recurring lines about 'gores of blood' and the 'debt to the Devil' came from. I agree that some of those verses about the ship sinking are reminiscent of 'House Carpenter', but I don't know a version of that with a debt to the Devil. Is there a missing print copy that included those stanzas?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:06 PM

Ty for your insights Steve. BTW I still didn't get music score, perhaps you don't have my email address correct: [e-mail]

Here's one of the few US version of the Polly's Love broadside circa 1820. It's interesting this predates Broadwood's 1893 collection by a number of years:

PRETTY POLLY-- The text was dictated by Mrs. Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Oct. 7, 1946. She said that the "complete song" was sung by John Whittaker at a Fourth of July celebration in Willard before 1870.

1. They mounted on steeds and they rode through the greenwood;
O'er high hills and hollows and valleys they rode,
Like two doves together till a grave they did see,
A grave newly dug and a spade standing by.

2. She said, "William, come pity me, spare my poor life;
Let me live out my shame if I can't be your wife."
"Polly, oh Polly, there's no time to stand."
And instantly taking his knife in his hand,

3. He pierced her fair breast and the blood it did flow,
And into her grave her young body did throw.
He covered her o'ver and soon hastened on,
Left none but the small birds her state to be mourned.

4. He entered on board ship to sail the seas round,
And not until then was the murderer found.
"There's a murderer on board and he cannot be found;
Our ship stands in mourning and we cannot sail on."

5. Up steps one man and says, "It is not me,"
And up steps another and he said the same.
And up steps young William to stomp and to swear,
"It is not me I will vow and declare."

6. As William was hastening from the captain with speed,
He met his poor Polly, which made his heart bleed.
She ripped him, she stripped him, she tore him in three
Because he had murdered her and her baby.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 16 - 10:57 AM

Hi Richie
As sometimes happens I don't quite follow your reasoning or agree with it. I concur that you have studied all extant versions which I have not and therefore you will no doubt have insights which I have not.

Having looked at the dates involved I am now more happy to accept Fowler's painstaking research. Also my knowledge of other ballads of the period (Dicey-Marshall material) leads me to believe, like many other ballads of the period, the hacks would find a skeleton of a story from whatever source (and sources are numerous and wide-ranging) and embellish it/spice it up with well-known pieces of folklore/superstitions. I think this is the more likely origin, but that's just my opinion and by all means include it wherever you like.

Very few of the ballad plots of that period are original. They are often taken from folk tales and stories from the continent and then given a local flavour by setting them somewhere real. In this case the bare outlines of the story came to the writer readymade. The hacks often spent their days in taverns by the waterside picking up stories from travellers: pick up a good story, knock up some rapid formulated doggerel, and off to the printers for your next night's drinking money!

Just remind you of an example I gave earlier: Bramble Briar/Bridgwater Merchant is very close to the 17thc English translation of the Isabella story in the Decameron. , (Minus the barmy head in the plantpot episode). I believe it was knocked up in Bristol in the middle of the 18thc and localised, hence Bridgwater.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 10:18 PM

Hi,

There's funny story about Lily Mae Ledford told later in her life about Pretty Polly, This is how I remember it.

When Lily Mae was young playing the banjo at home in Red River, Powell County, KY and singing songs her mother told Lily not to play any of those drinking songs, like Wild Bill Jones but she told Lily she could play Pretty Polly.

Lily said, "But Mama that boy killed that poor girl!"

Her Mama said, "Well it was probably cause he was drinkin'."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 02:52 PM

Mistake in last post :) I've added the Brown Collection of NC Folklore and Abrams collection to my site (11 versions)

11 versions, not 911 haha!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 02:50 PM

TY Steve for the tunes. Ty everyone for your insights and help with this tread.

I've added the Brown Collection of NC Folklore and Abrams collection to my site 911 versions) and have stated adding more US versions here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-1-gosport-tragedy.aspx

A few observations are found on the main page (headnotes) here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/1-the-cruel-ships-carpenter-pretty-polly.aspx

The thrust of these observation are posted below (preliminary findings which may change) since they aren't so long. Comments are welcome:

Unless you agree with Fowler[5] that the first Gosport broadside was written around 1726 by a printer[6] from a story about a murder and ghostly visitation witnessed and transmitted by Charles Stewart (also Stuart), the broadsides could likely be based on an ur-ballad[7]. I find it unlikely that Stewart would have met Molly's parents and told them where she is buried and it seems unlikely that he witnessed her ghost and the other supernatural events that take place in the broadside and transmitted them to Cluer in London[8]. Aa certainly does not seem to be taken from tradition, but rather is a printer's elaboration on the ballad story. Bb, is shorter and closer to the likely tradition while Ca has the standard text with a new beginning and ending. Discovering the ur-ballad from the these printed broadsides can be done by studying available traditional versions that are not closely based on print[9].

The nature of the Ur-ballad raises these questions. Was the first print version, Aa London, circa 1720-1750, a wholly original work? Did other printers copy the first printing and subsequent folk singers learned the ballad directly or indirectly from these broadsides? My contention is that Aa was taken from tradition (the ur-ballad) and embellished. The embellishments could include additional stanzas and also the setting and names. As much as Fowler[10] has tried to prove the historical accuracy of the ballad as if it was based on an actual event, I assume that it was more likely that the specific details, which include William, Molly, Charles Stuart, Gosport, Plymouth (Portsmouth) and the HMS Bedford, were added to the ur-ballad by a printer. The ur-ballad does seem to be about a ship carpenter who charms and impregnates his lover while ashore and then before he sets sail, decides to murder her because she is pregnant. This murder would, according to tradition, have placed a curse on the vessel and its crew if the murderer went to sea. The appearance of his lover's ghost and his subsequent confession and death are predicable results of his crime. William dies because he is "raving distracted" which is another clue to understanding the ballad's oral history.

Fortunately there is a body of traditional versions that may be used to understand the underlying traditional ballad. One area of study is the Appalachians. Cecil Sharp and Olive Campbell collected 39 version alone of "The Cruel Ship's Carpenter" between 1916-1918, most of which date back to the 1800s by the informants and through their families date back to the times of their early ancestors settlements in the mountains. Although it may be impossible to pinpoint the exact date this ballad came into an area, like Madison County, NC, it may be assumed that the ballad was brought to the Virginia Colony and was taken by ancestors into the remote mountains, where it remained to be discovered by Sharp between 1916 and 1918. Many of the ballads brought to the Virginia colony were learned there before the Revolutionary War and taken into remote regions such as Flag Pond, TN and Madison County NC before 1800.

Most of the texts are the short Appalachian version which is similarly found in 6 stanzas of the broadside. It's clear that these stanzas are part of the ur-ballad. Only two texts, Sharp B and an MS fragment, are closely related to the Gosport broadsides. The remainder of the texts (and other Appalachian text) when compared show these results:

1. That first stanza of the broadsides is found enough times to assume that it is part of the ur-ballad. In Appalachia the damsel dwells in London and other locations and her beauty is mentioned and sometimes that her lover was a ship's carpenter.

2. That stanza two is usually present though not necessarily as the second stanza in that place. William wants to marry her and asks her to marry.

3. That her response, "I'm too young to marry" is present enough to warrant inclusion in the ur-ballad. Although it is rare, this is found in enough versions to believe it has been transmitted from the British Isles and is not a local variance.

4. That subsequent stanzas in the broadsides (4-13 Roxburghe) that include her sexual submission, her pregnancy, and his call to return to the sea are lacking in Appalachia except in very rare cases. It may be assumed that this may be in part due to taboos of transmission of sexual actions in general.

5. The visitation of Charles Stewart is missing in standard Appalachian version however, Polly's (Molly's) ghost does appear and William does die "raving distracted."

6. That additional stanzas constructed in Appalachia probably from the House Carpenter, where William boards a ship after the murder which sinks can be expected. The boarding of the ship is still in line with the broadside, it's the sinking and going to hell to pay a debt to the devil which is new.

The possibility that the early broadsides captured an existing traditional ballad (ur-ballad) is reasonable. It's also reasonable to assume that the Deming broadside and the "Polly's love" broadside were changed by the addition or subtraction of either new or pre-broadside traditional texts. I also know that some of the texts made by these printers entered tradition and this is proven by collected versions. My conclusion is that the ballad was reworked by a printer, or in this case printers, from a traditional tale about a murder and cosmic retribution upon the murderer for his horrific deed.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 16 - 02:14 PM

Dispatched tunes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 06:24 PM

Jim,

There are several standard openings for the US short versions:

1a. I used to be a rambler, I stayed around in town
I used to be a rambler, I stayed around in town
I courted Pretty Polly, her beauty has never been found.

This is from Jim Howard 1937 KY and should be:
I used to be a rambler, I roamed from town to town.

Notice that the final line still relates to the broadside text.

1b. I used to be a rounder I've been around this town,
I used to be a rounder I've been around this town,
I courted Pretty Polly I've been all around.

From Coon Creek Girls, 1938. Same opening but last line has nothing to do with broadside.

2a. Pretty Polly, pretty Polly would you think it unkind,
Pretty Polly, pretty Polly would you think it unkind,
For me to sit by you and tell you my mind.

My mind is to marry and never to part,
My mind is to marry and never to part,
For the first time is saw you you wounded my heart.

This opening which has been incorporated into other in waltz time songs has two stanzas- sometimes the second is missing:

2b. Polly, Pretty Polly, would you think it unkind?
Polly, Pretty Polly, would you think it unkind?
For me to sit down beside you and tell you my mind.
[Jim Howard, 1937 KY has only the first stanza.]

3a. I courted Pretty Polly, one whole live long night
I courted Pretty Polly, one whole live long night
Left the next morning, before it was light

[again Jim Howard, but perhaps most famous by Dock Boggs, 1927]

3b. I talked to pretty Polly one whole long night,
I talked to pretty Polly one whole long night,
I left the next morning before daylight.

["Pretty Polly" Addie Graham, born before 1900 in Kentucky, from recording, Been A Long Time Traveling.]

4a. "O where is Pretty Polly?" "O yonder she stands,
Gold rings upon her fingers, her lily-white hands."

[Pretty Polly; Hindman, KY pre1907; collected from H. Smith by Katherine Pettit]

There are over a dozen versions with 4a. as an opening. Sometimes they are combined as Jim Howard's version has three. 2a. found also crossed over in the waltz time songs is simply: he meets her, wants to marry her because she's wounded his heart- then he takes her "over hills and valleys so deep."

The other 3/4 time songs lack a cohesive theme and subject. By putting this opening (2a.) in Wagoner's Lad at least there is a specific love interest.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 02:30 PM

Steve, thank you. I'd be interested to see the melodies too.

Richie, what made me wonder about the direction of borrowing of those "tell you my mind" lines is that it looks to me as if they fit better in a "Cuckoo"-type song of disappointed love than they do the "Pretty Polly" story. In Uncle Pat Fry's song, the four lines make sense as the words of one person: first he says he wants to tell her his mind, and then he tells her it (and presumably she isn't interested, so he moves on). In "Pretty Polly", he obviously isn't thinking of marriage, but she probably is, so the only way I can make sense of the four lines is to imagine that he says he wants to tell her his mind, and then, without waiting for him to do it, she tells him her mind. It looks if the lines have been forced into a story they didn't originally belong to. But you know better than I do if they are common in versions of "Pretty Polly".

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 11:21 AM

Hi,

Gutcher- I'd say that the standard US (Appalachain) Pretty Polly melody would have no resemblance to Greig-Duncan- however if Steve emails me a copy I'd like to look at those melodies.

The standard British versions are melodies used from the later broadside (early 1800s) "Polly's Love." The only traditional US version of that I have found is similar to "Sweet Betsy from Pike." Wiggy Smith sings a melody I've not heard and ironically sings of "Sweet Betsy."

The melody of Pretty Polly is sometimes minor "Dorian" and there is one beautiful minor rendering in The Abrams Collection which I'm convinced is very old and represents an early rendering of the ballad. It doesn't have the repeats of the first line:

Listen: http://omeka.library.appstate.edu/files/original/38ef8d25d4b1da33c347916da1dc6cd1.mp3

Pretty Polly- Sung by Mrs. James York on Dec. 7, 1940 at the Bland Hotel in Raleigh, NC. Transcribed R. Matteson 2016.

Come along Pretty Polly and go with me
Before we get married our friends to see.

He led her o'er hills and valleys so deep,
At last this poor damsel began to weep.

Oh William, I'm afraid you are leading me astray,
One purpose my innocent life to betray.

Come on Pretty Polly you guessed it just right
I'm digging your grave the one part of last night

Her lily-white hands in horror she rose
I'm crying for mercy what have I done?

They went a bit further and what did they spy
But a grave newly dug and a spade by the side

She threw her arms 'round him and suffered no fear,
How can you kill a girl who loves you so dear?

Come on Pretty Polly, no time to stand,
He instantly drew his best[1] knife in his hand.

He stabbed her through the heart and the blood it did flow,
And into the grave that poor body did go.

He threw some dirt o'er and turned to go home
Left nothing but the birds to make her sad mourn.

Oh where is Pretty Polly, oh woe is me?
Oh, now I am bound for one part of the sea.

1. own knife?

Jim- I was wondering about the text found also in Pretty Polly that has appeared in a half dozen collected waltz-time versions of Wagoner's Lad; Trouble in Mind; Cuckoo etc. It's clear to me that the Pretty Polly text existed before and was taken into the other songs.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 09:21 AM

I can scan anything in Greig-Duncan and send it to you both if needed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 04:35 AM

Richie, you're right. I've done some more searching of the snippets, using your method of including the number in the search, and found the stanza that goes before the "Oh captain" one, and it is indeed a different song. Sorry to have introduced a red herring. I was wondering if the singer had slipped from Gosport into "The Sailor and the Ghost", but apparently not. So the real stanza 8 remains a mystery.

Interesting about the pre-blues format. (I was wondering when this discussion would get on to the subject of how the Appalachian "Pretty Polly" took shape.) I only know the "... would you think it unkind,/ For me to sit by you and tell you my mind. / My mind is to marry and never to part,/ For the first time is saw you you wounded my heart" lines from the Stanley Brothers' version of "Pretty Polly". Do you think these were floating verses that were borrowed into "Pretty Polly", or did they start out as part of an earlier version of "Pretty Polly" and get borrowed into Uncle Pat Fry's song?

Gutcher, it would be interesting to know. On the assumption that words might have spread by print or manuscript, while tunes could generally only have spread through personal contact between one singer and another (at least before the days of sound recordings), a comparison of tunes might add to the picture of how the ballad spread and evolved.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 16 Apr 16 - 02:18 AM

Do the two tunes given with the fragments in the Greig-Duncan collection bear any resemblance to the tunes collected in America/Canada?.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 07:49 PM

Hi,

Jim- I also came up with that stanza but it's of course another song. If you add an 8. to "A voice they did hear." and hit search in snippet view or google books you'll see that there's an 8th stanza- plus it makes sense that there is.

Steve- Yes I know there are lots of version of Pretty Polly that are not CSC- these are a blending of texts from Pretty Polly found in other 3/4 time songs- so they are actually hybrid versions and not other songs about a girl named Pretty Polly. The melody is the other song. So this is not significant but shows the Pretty Polly text crossed over into other 3/4 time songs.

What may be important is the AAB form as a pre-blues format, since obviously Pretty Polly predates the birth of the blues. In Appalachia these are know as "white blues" that are modal, pentatonic with a flat 7 and sometimes minor 3rd (sung). They sometimes shift to a flat 7 chord with a progression something like: I VIIb7 I I VIIb7 I V7 I. Examples include Hustling Gamblers, Little Maggie, and Darling Cory.

TY tradsinger- for that version similar to the text of the broadside "Polly's love" from Wiggy Smith- what a singer!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Tradsinger
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 04:24 PM

Here's a version collected in 1998 http://glostrad.com/ships-carpenters-mate-the/ with Wiggy Smith at his dramatic best.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 03:35 PM

Hi Richie,
My guess was that since stanza 8 can't be the one with Charles Stewart, which came next in the old broadside text but has already been used as stanza 6 here, stanza 8 might be something involving the captain. Searching for "captain", I got this. It's stanza 8 of something and it seems to have the right stanza form, and it fits the story. The only problem is that it belongs to another ballad about a sailor and a ghost:

8. "Oh, Captain, Captain,
Stand my defence,
For yonder comes
The spirit hence.
It'll cause you and all your
Seamen all for to weep,
When you are slumbering
In the deep."

It seems to be from the top of page 59. Would that be a possible match with what you found? I'm afraid it's the best I can do. Without access to the book itself, it's probably impossible to know. How do you know there is a stanza 8, by the way?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 11:14 AM

Hi Richie
As I'm sure you know there at least 20 different songs that use the title 'Pretty Polly'. What has the previous posting got to do with CSC? Apologies if I'm losing the thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 09:52 AM

TY Jim,

If I can find a couple words in stanza 8 I can get it using goggle books. Any suggestions? It has to be an exact word.

I'm going to comment on the Appalachian versions in 3/4 time that Brian Peters mentioned. In Appalachia, "Pretty Polly" has been incorporated in a cycle of 3/4 time songs that include stanzas from the Cuckoo, Wagoner's Lad, Rye Whiskey, etc.:

"Pretty Polly" -Recorded in East Bend, NC on September 2, 1944 from Uncle Pat Fry (singer).

The cuckoo is a pretty bird she sails as she flies,
She tells us glad tidings, she tells us no lie[s].

The cuckoo don't holler, but three times a year,
Oh and when she cuckoos, cause you know summer's near.

Pretty Polly, pretty Polly would you think it unkind,
For me to sit by you and tell you my mind.

My mind is to marry and never to part,
For the first time is saw you you wounded my heart.

So my horses are not hungry and they won't eat your hay,
So farewell Pretty Polly, I'll feed on my way.

And if I get tired I'll slow down and cry,
And think of Pretty Polly and wish she was mine.

Other informants (see McDowell, TN) know the ballad only in this format. It was first collected this way by Isabel Rawn in 1914 in Georgia- the MS was given to Olive Dame Campbell and is in the Sharp MS collection.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 15 Apr 16 - 04:17 AM

> I've found a great traditional version of Gosport from West Virginia collected in 1953.

Thanks for posting this, Richie. I wonder if someone has the book and can add stanza 8.

On thing I notice about this version is that it doesn't come from the Deming-type text; it looks as if it's from the version in version in the Scottish chapbooks and Buchan (or something very similar). The evidence:

1) It has Portmouth, Charles Stewart (including his first name), and something that looks like a corruption of "on board the Bedford" ("Way down that redboat"). Those on their own might point to the Roxburghe-type text as a source. However:

2) The 8 lines starting "She saw her grave dug" are from the Scottish chapbook version (or something very like it). The Roxburghe-type text doesn't have the line about the grave and spade (and the Deming version arranges the lines differently and doesn't have the "worst of all men" / "dead and gone" rhyme, which the chapbook version keeps from the Roxburghe-type text).

As far as I can see the only other US version you have posted that has similar features pointing to the chapbook/Buchan type rather than the Deming type as a source is the one from Maryland (posted on 26 March).

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 10:13 PM

Hi Brian,

To respond to your queries. The Sharp Campbell texts are two line stanza, the standard 3 line stanza (repeat the 1st line), which is how I learned it and 4 line stanza (repeat the 1st line three times). The three line stanza is similar to standard 12 bar blues form. So in fact the ballad is lengthened fro m the older Gosport version because in the three line stanza there is a repeated line.

Here's a rough take of the three line stanza version I learned in Kentucky:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASJjrxxCNmc

I also played it with Carrie Norris, Lily-Mae Ledford's granddaughter. See my early post on this thread for the you-tube link. It's similar but I learned mine before I played with Carrie.

"Guessed about right" is Appalachian or American. I'm having trouble locating version from New England, but the ballad is very well know in Kentucky, for example.

As far as how it got to the Appalachians we known that, in general, the ballad came to the Virginia colony which established its House of Burgesses in the 1620s. By 1700 a large number of English and Scottish immigrants resided along the James River and by 1720 there were around 100,000. The Hick's family (which married into the Harmon family several times), left the James River and went inland into North Carolina and one son, David settled in Watuaga County before the Revolutionary War. We know the ballad was part of the family because it was sung by Sam Harmon and his daughter (see Melinger Henry B)

B. "Little Mollie." Obtained from Mrs. Mary Tucker, Varnell, Georgia, February, 1929. Mrs. Tucker is the eldest daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Harmon, formerly of Cade's Cove, Tennessee.

1. "Little Mollie, little Mollie," said he,
"Will you degree[1], and get married to me?
I have a fair[2] off friend,
That we will go and see."

2. "Sweet Willie, sweet Willie," said she,
"I am afraid I am too young to get married to you."
"Little Mollie, oh, no, you are just right
For I have been digging at your grave all the best part of last night."

3. He led her over valleys and hollows so deep
Till, at last, poor little Mollie, so bitterly she did weep.
He led her up the mountain so high,
Until she came to her grave, and a spade a-laying by.

4. She threw her arms around him with a love hug and a fear.
"How can you kill a poor little girl, who has loved you so dear?"
"I have got no time to tarry, or fool here with you."
He pulled his hand out of his pocket, a sharp knife he drew.

5. He pierced her to the heart, oh! how the blood did flow!
And into her grave her dead body he threw.
He covered her up and went his way home;
Left nothing but the small birds to hear his sad moan.

6. As he was sailing all on his heart's delight,
The ship it was sinking, and nearly out of sight.
Up stepped little Mollie all in a gore of blood,
Saying that "A debt you owe the devil, and now you have it to pay."

1. agree.
2. far.

This version has the ship sinking gore of blood ending found in some extended Appalachian versions. It retains the broadside name "Molly" who visits William as a ghost as he is dying.

It seems to me that his version is early 1800s (guestimation) and retain elements of the broadside. My question is: could this and other version be based on an ur-ballad which was captured by the printed broadsides and reworked?

Certainly Sharp B is similar to or based on Gosport (posted earlier). At least a dozen Appalachian versions have "died distracted" or "too young to marry" which parallel the broadside tests.

It's possible but unlikely that the US print versions from NY, MA and MD traveled down to the Appalachians but that migration did happen.

I also believe that the Deming Broadside may have been derived from an early English broadside (possibly based on the ur-ballad) of the late 1700s which has since disappeared. This is evidenced by stanzas unique to Deming being found in Appalachia and also Nova Scotia.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 12:03 PM

Hi,

I've found a great traditional version of Gosport from West Virginia collected in 1953. I can't seem to get the 8th stanza, which can be viewed on Google Books here but it's snippet view: https://books.google.com/books?id=N7LYAAAAMAAJ&q=%22A+tremble+of+fear%22+pretty+polly&dq=%22A+tremble+of+fear%22+pretty+polly&hl

Pretty Polly (The Cruel Ship's Carpenter) (Note j Contributed by Everett Smith, of Catawba, as sung by S. L. Bunner of Catawba. I have the tune of this, as sung to me by Everett Smith.)

1. It's away down in low land,
Where little Polly did dwell;
For wit and for beauty
There's none could excell.

There's a young man who courted her
All for to be his dear,
And was by trade
Was a ship's carpenter.

2. "Come, pretty Polly,
Come go along with me;
Before we get married,
A friend we will be.* (see?)

He led her through groves
And through valleys so deep,
Till last* this fair damsel (at last?)
Began for to weep.

"Hard-hearted young William,
You have led em astray,
one purpose, my in love* (on purpose my love)
And my life to betray."

3. She saw her grave dug,
And a spade standing by,
Saying, "Is this my bride's bed,
Wherein must I lie?

Hard-hearted young William,
You're worst of all men;
May the heavens award* you (reward?)
When I'm dead and gone.

4. "It's come, pretty Polly,
There's no time to stand;
While immediately taking
A knife in his hand,

He pierced her fair body
Till the heart-blood did flow
And into her grave,
Her fair body did throw.

5. In covering her over,
He turned back again;
Left none but the small birds
Her death to mourn.

Way down that redboat,
He's gone speedily,
And away in Portsmouth
He bound out for the sea.

6. Old Charley Stewart,
Carried so bold,
This beautiful damsel,
He chanced to behold,

This beautiful damsel
Unto him did appear,
And into her arms was
A baby so dear.

7. With screams of loud screeches,
Cried out . . .(in loud cries?)
Till flashes of lightning
Fell down from the skies;

Set the whole ship in
A tremble of fear;
But none saw the ghost,
but A voice they did hear.

8. [missing]

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 14 Apr 16 - 11:54 AM

Brian and all,

I've just put all 39 Sharp/Campbell version on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-1-gosport-tragedy.aspx

It include the 18 MS versions. There are two version of Gosport and several that have lines form Gosport in addition to the "standard" text, which is similar to six stanzas in Gosport.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 16 - 03:05 PM

I think that's pretty conclusive evidence, Jim. Although Sam Cowell made many of these burlesques famous, some of them must have been around in the early 19th century when he was touring America with his family. Another interesting fact that may be relevant is that J W Ebsworth, the editor of most of the Roxburghe Ballads, was married to Sam's sister.