Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 05:24 PM

These dates are often out or typos. The style, if you compare it with other printings on the Santa Barbara site, is much earlier than 1776, 1720s I could live with.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 06:12 PM

Creighton D is also based on the Gosport broadside; Creighton C is a different ballad. I have two other Canadian version but they are not from the coast. In the version in Songs of the Miramichi her ghost appears to Willie after he boards the ship and sails for Bermuda. Willie was accused of the murder by the Captain and sentenced to die.

Fowke collected a version in 1962 from Leo Spencer:

The Ship's Carpenter

'Twas in Lisburgh of late a fair damsel did dwell;
Her wit and her beauty no one could e'er tell.
She was loved by a fair one who called her his dear
And he by his trade was a ship's carpenteer.

He says, 'Molly, lovely Molly, if you will agree
And give your consent, love, for to marry me.
Your love it would cure me from all sorrow and care
If you will agree to wed a ship's carpenter.'

'Twas changing and blushing like a rose in full bloom
'To marry you,' Willie, you know I'm too young.
I'm afraid for to venture before I prepare;
I never will marry a ship's carpenter.'

Her talk was in vain as he straight took denial,
And he by his coming soon made her reply.
'Twas by her exception he led her astray;
O'er high hills and pathways he did her betray.

Things passed on for awhile till at length we did hear
A ship must be sailing all o'er the salt sea.
It grieved this fair damsel and wounded her heart-
To think from her darling how soon must she part.

She says, 'Willie, lovely Willie' are you going on sea?
Remember those vows that you once made to me.
If at home you don't tarry I can find no rest,
Oh how can You leave your poor darling at last ?'

With tender expression those words he did say:
'I will marry you, Molly, before I go away.
If it be tomorrow, and you will come down,
A ring I will buy you worth one hundred pound.'

With tender expression they parted that night;
They promised to meet the next morning by light.
Says Willie to Molly, 'You must come with me
And before we are married my friends for to see.'

He led her through pathways, o'er hills that were steep
Till this pretty fair one began for to weep,
Saying, 'False-hearted Willie, you've led me astray,
Purpose my innocent life to betray.'

He says, 'You have guessed right; on earth can't you see
For all of last night I've been digging your grave.'
When innocent Molly she heard him say so,
Tears from her eyes like a fountain did flow.

'Twas a grave with a spade lying there she did spy
Which caused her to sigh and to weep bitterly.
O false-hearted Willie, you're the worst of mankind.
Is this the bride's bed I expected to find?

'Tis pity my infant and spare me my life;
Let me live full of shame if I can't be your wife.
Take not my life, for my soul you'll betray
And you (to perdition) soon hurried away.'

There's no time to be waiting, disputing to stand.
He instantly taking a knife in his hand,
He pierced her bosom and the blood down did flow,
And into the grave her poor body he throwed.

He covered her over and then hurried home,
Leaving none but the small birds her fate to be known.
He then sailed on board without more delay;
He sad sailed for Plowmount far o'er the salt sea.

'Twas a young man named Stewart with courage so brave,
The night it was dark as he went to the wave.
A beauty fair damsel to him did appear,
She held in her arrums an infant most dear.

Being merry with liquor, he ran to embrace,
Transported with joy at her beautiful face,
But by his amazement she vanished away.
He told to the captain without more delay.

The captain soon summoned his jolly ship's crew.
'Oh my brave young fellows, I fear some of you
Has murdered that fair one and then come with me;
Her poor spirit haunts you all o'er the salt sea.'

Then false-hearted Willie he fell to his knees
And the blood in his veins all like horror did freeze,
Crying, 'Monster, oh lover, oh what have I done?
God help me, I fear my poor soul is undone.'

'You poor injured fair one, your pardon I crave;
How soon must I follow you down to the grave!
There's none but you, fair one, to see that sad sight.'
And by her distraction he died the same night.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 06:14 PM

Steve,

I'll call them tomorrow and try and get the info on the broadside they posted which they dated 1776.

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 10:34 PM

Hi,

I'm including Creighton D which is based on the full Gosport ballad. It too has the Forget-Me-Not Songster stanza:

7. "He who don't confess his life we'll destroy
And he shall be hung on the yardarm so high,
But he who confesses his life we'll not take
But we'll land him on the first island we make."

The Ship's Carpenter [D] - Sung by Mrs. R. W. Duncan, Dartmouth, NS.
Melody collected by Nina Finn

1. Says William to Mary Will you come along with me
Before we get married our friends for to see,
He led her through groves and through valleys so deep
At last this young damsel began for to weep.

2. She says, "My dear William you have led me astray,
Because my poor innocent life to betray,
O pity my infant and spare my poor life,
Let me live full of shame if I Can't be your wife."

3. Her grave with a spade lying near did she see
Which caused her to weep and to cry bitterlee,
Then instantly taking a knife in his hand
He pierced her fair breast whence the blood it did flow
And in the deep river her body did throw.

4. He buried the body and then returned home
Leaving none but the small birds her fate to bemoan,
On board ship he entered without more delay
And he set sail for Plymouth to plough the salt sea.

5. That night as the man having courage most bold
One night being late to go down in the hold,
When a beautiful damsel to him did appear,
And into her arms held an infant most dear.

6. When to his amazement she vanished away
Which he told to the captain without more delay,
The captain soon summoned the jovial ship's crew,
"I'm afraid my brave fellows, I'm afraid one of you
Have murdered some damsel e'er you came away
Whose now injured ghost haunts you now on the sea."

7. "He who don't confess his life we'll destroy
And he shall be hung on the yardarm so high,
But he who confesses his life we'll not take
But we'll land him on the first island we make."

8. Now Willie immediately fell on his knees
And the blood in his veins with horror did freeze
And behold that poor fellow beheld a sad state
And raving distracted he died that same night.

9. When her poor parents they came for to hear
They then searched the body of their daughter fair,
Near the town of Southampton in a valley so deep
They found her poor body that caused many to weep.

10. In St. Sullie's churchyard her ashes now lies,
I hope her poor soul is with God in the skies,
Come all you poor maidens, here's a warning to all
That dare a poor innocent maid to enthrall.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 11:07 PM

Here's another US version that's based on the full Gosport ballad. It's from Folksongs of Florida; Morris, 1950. When Polly's ghost later appears to Sweet William, "he went distracted and died that same night."

"The Ship Carpenter." Text communicated by Miss Inez Parrish, Trenton, who took it down from the singing her mother Mrs. J. H. Parrish.

"Oh will you consent, love, oh will you agree,
Oh will you consent, love, for to marry me,
I will free you from sorrow, great trouble, and care,
If you will only wed with the ship carpenter."

He led her over hills and valleys so steep
Until pretty Polly began for to weep;
"It's William, sweet William, you are the worst of all men,
The Lord will reward you for what you have done.

"Oh pity your infant and spare its poor life,
And let me go distracted and not be your wife."
"It's Polly, pretty Polly, it's now for you to stand,"
And quickly he taken his knife in his hand.

He led her a little farther and what was she to spy?
There was a grave dug and a spade lying by;
He pierced her to the heart and her heart blood did flow,
And under the ground her fair body he throwed.

He covered her up and straightway rerurned home,
Leaving none but the small birds to weep and to mourn,
. . . .
. . . .

Straightway to Belford this young man did steer,
And there he dropped anchor and stayed for three years
When the captain said, "some of us have murdered;
And if it be so, the ship's in great danger on the ocean to go."

Sweet William lay sleeping at his chamber so dear,
When the voice of his true love came in to his ear,
"Oh wake, Sweet William, awake and draw near,
To the voice of your true love who loved you so dear."

"Oh yonder prerty polly, oh yonder she stands,
with her ring all on her fingers and her lily-white hands;
Oh yonder pretty Polly, oh yonder she stands,
with her ring all on her finger and her babe in her arms."

There was none but sweet William who saw that great sight,
And he went distracted and died that same night;
There was none but sweet William who saw that great sight,
And he went distracted and died that same night.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 08:58 AM

Steve,

Ashley from the American Antiquarian Society responded:

The broadside that you reference has an estimated date of 1776-1805, as the Bible and Heart in Boston was the sign of T & J Fleet from 1776-1797 and John & Thomas Fleet from 1797-1805. This information is taken from the AAS catalog record at http://catalog.mwa.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=509056. The imprint reads: "Sold at the Bible and Heart in Cornhill, Boston."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 10:04 AM

Hi,

I've transcribed the text of the Fleet broadside dated 1776-1805. Other than the quotation marks for dialogue (which I added from Roxburghe) it is exactly as printed. There are some very minor differences between this broadside and the 1750 broadside published by Roxburghe- none worth mentioning.

Gosport Tragedy
Or The
Perjured Ship-Carpenter

Tune: Peggy's Gone over Sea

IN Gosport of late there a damsel did dwell,
For wit and for beauty did many excel;
A young man did court her to be his dear,
And he by his trade was a ship-carpenter.

He said, "Oh! dear Molly, if you will agree,
And will consent to marry me;
My love you will ease me of sorrow and care,
If you will but wed a ship-carpenter."

With blushes more charming than roses in June.
She answer'd Sweet William, "To wed I'm too young.
Young men are so fickle I see very plain,
If a maid is not coy they will her disdain."

"They flatter and swear their[her] charms they adore,
When gain'd their[her] consent, they care for no more;
The handsomest creature that ever was born,
When man has enjoy'd, he will hold in scorn."

"My charming Molly what makes you say so?
Thy beauty's the haven [heaven] to which I would go.
So into that country I chance for to steer
I there will cast anchor, and stay with my dear."

"I ne'er shall be cloy'd with the charms of my love,
My love is as true as the turtle-dove;
And all [that] I crave is to wed with my dear,
And when thou art mine no danger I fear."

"The life of a virgin, sweet William, I prize,
For marriage brings sorrows and troubles likewise;
I am loath to venture, and therefore forbear,
For I will not wed a ship-carpenter."

"For in the time of war to the sea you must go,
And leave wife and children in sorrow and woe.
The seas they are perilous, therefore forbear,
For I will not wed with a ship-carpenter."

But yet all in vain, she his suit did deny,
Though he still did press her to make her comply;
At length with his cunning he did her betray,
And to lewd desire he led her away.

But when with child this young woman were,
The tidings she instantly sent to her dear;
And by the good heaven he swore to be true,
Saying, "I will wed no other but you."

They passed on [their time], till at length we[he] hears,
The king wants sailors to the sea he repairs,
Which grieved the damsel unto the heart,
To think she so soon with her lover must part.

She said, "My dear William e'er thou go'st to sea,
Remember the vows that thou madest to me;
But if you forsake me I never shall rest,
Oh! why dost thou leave me with sorrow opprest?"

Then with kind embraces to her he did say,
"I'll wed thee, dear Molly, e'er I go away;
And if to-morrow to me thou dost come,
A licence I'll buy, and it shall be done."

So with kind embraces he parted that night,
She wen[t] to meet him in the morning light;
He said, "Dear charmer thou must go with me,
Before we are wedded, a friend to see."

He led her through valleys and groves so deep,
At length this maiden began for to weep;
Saying, "William, I fancy thou leadst me astray,
On purpose my innocent life to betray."

He said, "That is true, and none you can save,
For I all this night have been digging a grave;"
Poor innocent soul, when she heard him say so,
Her eyes like a fountain began for to flow.

"O perjur'd creature! the worst of all men,
Heaven reward thee when I'm dead and gone:
O pity the infant, and spare my life,
Let me go distress'd if I'm not thy wife."

Her hands white as lillies in sorrow she wrung,
Beseeching for mercy, saying, "What have I done
To you my dear William, what makes you severe,
For to murder one that loves you so dear?"

He said, "Here's no time disputing to stand,"
And instantly taking the knife in his hand;
He pierced her body till the blood it did flow,
Then into the grave her body did throw.

He cover'd her body, then home he did run,
Leaving none but birds her death to mourn;
On board the Bedford he enter'd straitway,
Which lay at Portsmouth outward bound for the sea.

For carpenter's mate he was enter'd we hear,
Fitted for his voyage away he did steer;
But as in his cabin one night he did lie,
The voice of his sweetheart he heard to cry.

"O perjur'd villain, awake now and hear,
The voice of your love, that lov'd you so dear;
This ship out of Portsmouth never shall go,
Till I am revenged for this overthrow."

She afterward vanished with shrieks and cries,
Flashes of lightning did part from her eyes;
Which put the ships crew into great fear,
None saw the ghost, but the voice they did hear.

Charles Stuart, a man of courage so bold,
One night was going into the hold,
A beautiful creature to him did appear,
And she had in her arms a daughter most fair.

The charms of this so glorious a face,
Being merry in drink, he goes to embrace:
But to his surprise it vanish'd away,
So he went to the captain without more delay,

And told him the story, which when he did hear,
The captain said, "Some of my men I do fear
Have done some murder, and if it be so,
Our ship in great danger to the sea must go."

One at a time then his merry men all,
Into his cabin he straitway did call;
And said, "My lads the news I do hear
Doth much surprise me with sorrow and fear."

"This ghost which appear'd in the dead of the night
Which all my seaman so sadly did fright;
I fear has been wrong'd by some of my crew,
And therefore the person I fain would know."

Then William affrighted did tremble with fear
And began by the powers above to swear;
He nothing at all of the matter did know,
And unto the captain he went to go.

Unto his surprize his truelove he sees,
With that he immediately fell on his knees:
And said, "Here's my true love! where shall I run?
O save me, or else I am surely undone."

Now he the murder confessed out of hand,
And said, "Before me my Molly doth stand,
Sweet injur'd ghost thy pardon I crave,
And soon I will seek thee in the silent grave."

No one but this wretch did see this sad sight,
Then raving distracted he dy'd in the night:
As soon as her parents these tidings did hear
They sought for the body of their daughter dear.

Near a place call'd Southampton in a valley deep,
The body was found, while many did weep
At the fall of the damsel and her daughter dear,
In Gosport church they bury'd her there.

"I hope that this may be a warning to all,
Young men how innocent maids they enthral:
Young men be constant and true to your love,
Then a blessing indeed will attend you above."

FINIS

Sold at the Bible and Heart in Cornhill, Boston

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 10:40 AM

Wow, that's really spooky that I read it as Church St, Salem, not a million miles away, when I'd originally thought it likely to be a London imprint. Is it still possible that the Bible and Heart was selling broadsides at an earlier date? With the above info we don't know if the Fleets were stationers or printers or both. I'll see if I can find out more now we have a name and definite address.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 10:52 AM

Okay more Googling brings up publishing dates for the Fleets at the Bible and Heart as 1746 to 1807 and this is just from surviving pieces. I got this from the Open Library site.
Thomas Fleet's dates are 1732 to 97.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 02:24 PM

Here's some info about the Fleet's from The History of Printing in America: With a Biography of Printers, Volume 1:

Thomas Fleet, Jr., & John Fleet. They were brothers, and having learned from their father the art of printing, succeeded him in business at his house in Cornhill, in 1758. I mention them together, because they commenced printing in partnership, and continued in connection until separated by death. They carried on the publication of The Boston Evening Post until the commencement of the revolutionary war; when they suspended the publication of that newspaper, and it was never after resumed. The impartiality with which the paper was conducted, in those most critical times, the authenticity of its news, and the judicious selections of its publishers, gained them great and deserved reputation.

Both brothers were born in Boston. Their father gave them a good school education; they were correct printers, very attentive to their concerns, punctual in their dealings, good citizens, and much respected. They printed several works in octavo, and some volumes in duodecimo, on their own account; and some in connection with other printers. Their shop was always supplied with smaller articles for the benefit of their sisters, who were never married.

They remained in Boston during the siege; and, afterward, revived the publication of the Massachusetts Register, which originated with Mein and Fleming some years before, and had been continued by Mills and Hicks. Thomas died a bachelor, March 2, 1797, aged sixty-five years. John was married; he died March 18, 1806, aged seventy-one, and left several children; one of whom, by the name of Thomas, was a printer in Boston at the same house in which his grandfather began the The Boston Evening Post[1].


1. Ann Fleet, the daughter of John, and the last of the name, died in Boston, July, 1860, aged 89. The estate of Thomas Fleet Sen., at the northerly corner of Washington and Water streets, which he purchased in 1744, and from which the Etening Post was issued for upwards of thirty years, still remained in the hands of his descendants In 1860, although they had discontinued the business of printing in 1808.— Boston Transcript. Thomas Fleet Sen. was the putative compiler of Mother Goose's Melodies, which he first published In 1719. Among the entries of marriages in the City Registry, under date of June 8,1715, is that of Thomas Fleet to Elizabeth Goose, and the idea of the collection is said to have arisen from hearing his mother-in-law repeat nursery rhymes to his1 children. It was characteristic of the man to make such a collection; and the first book of the kind known to have been printed in this country bears his imprint, and the title of Songs for the Nursery, or Mother Ooose's Melodies for Children. The name of Goose is now extinct in Boston, bat monuments remaining in the Granary burial ground in that city mark tho family resting place.— M.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 03:37 PM

This is the Leonard Deming broadside text (Boston, c. 1835) which was reproduced in the 1844 Forget-Me-Not Songster (NY). Notice how Molly's name changes to Mary after the 4th stanza. Stuart's name has been changed to Stewart. Some other identifiers include the last stanza- which now begins: "In Gosport's green church yard" and this stanza (24th) which has been added:

    Whoever you be, if the truth you deny,
    When found out, you'll be hung at the yard arm so high
    But he who confesses, his life we'll not take,
    But leave him upon the first island we make.

This is nearly identical to Mackenzie's Nova Scotia text which means a print version of this is likely the source of that version.

    Richie

The Gosport Tragedy,

    Shewing how a young damsel was seduced by a ship-carpenter, who led her into a lonesome wood, and there destroyed her—how her ghost haunted him at sea, and he died distracted.

    IN Gosport of late a young damsel did dwell,
    For wit and for beauty few did her excel;
    A young man did court her for to be his dear,
    And he by his trade was a ship carpenter.

    He said, dearest Molly, if you will agree,
    And give your consent dear for to marry me,
    Your love it can cure me of sorrow and care,
    Consent then to wed with a ship carpenter.

    With blushes as charming as roses in June,
    She answered, dear William to wed I'm too young
    For young men are fickle, I see very plain,
    If a maiden is kind they are quickly disdain.

    My charming sweet Molly how can you say so?
    Thy beauty's the heaven to which I would go;
    If there I find channel when I chance for to steer,
    I then will cast anchor and stay with my dear.

    I ne'er will be cloyd with the charms of my love,
    My heart is as true as the sweet turtle dove,
    And what I now crave is to wed with my dear,
    For when we are married no danger I'll fear.

    The state of a virgin sweet William I prize,
    For marriage brings sorrow and trouble likewise;
    I'm afraid for to venture, therefore forbear,
    I never will marry with a ship carpenter,

    But yet 'twas in vain that she strove to deny,
    For he by his cunning soon made her comply;
    And by base deception he did her betray,
    In sin's hellish paths he led her astray.

    But when this young damsel with child she did prove,
    She quick sent the tidings to her faithless love;
    Who swore by the heavens that he would prove true,
    And said I will marry no damsel but you.

    Things pass'd on a while, but at length we do hear,
    His ship must be sailing, for sea he must steer,
    Which griev'd this poor damsel, wounded her heart
    To think with her lover she so sudden must part.

    Cry'd she, dearest William, ere you go to sea,
    Remember the vows you have made unto me,
    If at home you don't tarry I never can rest,
    Then how can you leave me with sorrow oppress'd?

    With tender expressions to her he did say,
    I'll marry my Mary ere I go to sea;
    And if that to morrow my love will ride down,
    The ring I can buy our fond union to crown.

    With tender embraces they parted the night,
    And promised to meet the next morning by light;
    When William said—- Mary you must go with me,
    Before we are maried, our friends for to see.

    He led her through groves and vallies so deep,
    At length the young damsel began for to weep,
    Crying, William I fear you will lead me astray,
    On purpose my innocent life to betray.

    He said you've guess'd right all earth cant you save
    For the whole of last night I've been digging your grave
    When poor ruin'd Mary did hear him say so,
    The tears from her eyes like a fountain did flow.

    A grave with a spade lying near she did see,
    Which caused her to sigh and to weep bitterly,
    O! perjury William, the worst of mankind,
    Is this the bride's bed, I expected to find?

    O! pity my infant and spare my poor life,
    Let me live full of shame if I can't be your wife,
    O! take not my life least my soul you betray,
    And you to perdition be hurried away.

    Her hands, white as lillies, in sorrow she wrung,
    Imploring for mercy, crying, what have I done,
    To you dearest William, so comely and fair,
    Will you murder your true love, that lov'd you so dear

    He said this is no time disputing to stand,
    Then instantly taking a knife in his hand,
    He pierc'd her fair breast, whence the blood it did flew
    And into the grave her fair body did throw.

    He cover'd the body and quick hastend home,
    Leaving none but the small birds her state to bemoan,
    On board ship he enter'd without more delay,
    And set sail from Plymouth to plough the salt sea.

    A young man nam'd Stewart, of courage most bold,
    One night happen'd late to go into the hold,
    Where a beautiful damsel to him did appear,
    And she in her arms, held an infant most fair.

    Being merry with liquor he went to embrace,
    Transported with joy at beholding her face;
    When to his amazement she vanished away,
    Which he told the captain without more delay.

    The captain soon summoned the jovial ship's crew,
    And said, my brave fellows, I fear some of you
    Have murdered some damsel ere you came away,
    Whose injured ghost haunts you now on the sea.

    Whoever you be, if the truth you deny,[2]
    When found out, you'll be hung at the yard arm so high
    But he who confesses, his life we'll not take,
    But leave him upon the first island we make.

    Then William immediately fell on his knees,
    The blood in his veins quick with horror did freeze;
    He cried, cruel murder! oh! what have I done?
    God help me, I feat my poor soul is undone!

    Poor injured ghost your full pardon I crave,
    For soon I must follow you down to the grave.
    None else but this poor wretch beheld this sad sight,
    And raving distracted, he died the same night.

    Now when her sad parents these tidings did hear,
    They search'd for the body of their daughter so dear,
    Near the town of Southampton, in valley most deep,
    The body was found, which caused many to weep.

    In Gosport's green church yard her ashes now lie,
    And we hope that her soul is with God in the skies;
    Then let this sad tale be a warning to all,
    Who dare a poor innocent maid to enthral!

    AN Assortment of SONGS, second to none in the City, may be found at L. DEMING'S, corner of Merchants Row and Market Square.

    Sold Wholesale and Retail by Leonard Deming, No. 1, Market Square, corner of Merchant's Row, Boston.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 04:51 PM

Okay so we know Thomas Snr was publishing in Boston in 1719. What we need to know now is, was that at the Bible and Heart, or even was someone selling printed stuff at the Bible and Heart from an early period. The Deming version need not be directly related to the earlier printing at all. There could easily be a century between them, plenty of time for oral tradition to have intervened or even other printed versions, or even several 'improving' hacks.

When we see imprints on London sheets of the 17thc that state the likes of 'printed and sold at the Bible and Harp' we tend to think of it being attached to an inn, but I suppose what it really means is that was the company's sign.

What is perhaps remarkable is that there has been no attempt to localise the ballad in more than a century, the Deming version still has all of the place names intact. This is usually indicative of a strong print tradition rather than an oral one.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 07:34 PM

Hi,

This version can be heard online: https://www.loc.gov/item/afcnye000035 It's in two parts- the link to the second part is on the bottom right corner.

Cruel Ship's Carpenter --Sung by captain Pearl R. Nye, (1872-1950) on November 3, 1937. Recorded Lomax. My quick transcription (please proof).

IN London's fair city a fair damsel did dwell,
Her wealth and her beauty no tongue could thy tell;
She was courted by a sailor for to be his dear,
And him to his trade was a ship carpenter.

He says, "My Miss Mary, if you will agree,
And give your consent to go along me,
Your love it can cure me of sorrow and fear,
If you will but marry a ship carpenter."

Through 'braces and kisses they parted that night,
She started next morning for to meet him by light;
He led her through ditches and valleys so deep,
Till at length this fair damsel began for to weep.

She says, "My Sweet William you've led me astray
On purpose my innocent life to betray,
He says, "My Miss Mary you have guessed it right
for I was digging your grave all last night."

She turned her head and, her grave there she spied,
Saying, "Is this the bright bed for me you provide,
O pardon [me] Sweet William and spare me my life
Let me be distress-ed if I can't be your wife."

For pardon Sweet William is the worst of all men
Heaven will reward you, when I'm dead and gone;
No time for to weep no nor time for to stand,
He instantly taking his knife in his hand.

Into her fair body, his knife then did go,
And the blood from her body like a fountain did flow,
He covered her all up and homeward returned
Left no one to mourn but the small birds alone.

The captain soon summoned the whole of his crew,
He said, "My brave boys, I fear some of you
Have murdered some damsel before we came 'way,
That will cause us to hate upon the whole sea.

And he that did do it, the truth he'll deny,
We'll hang him on yon gallows oh so high
But he who confesses, then his life we'll not take,
But to leave him on the next island we make.

Poor William, poor William then fell to his knees
The blood in his veins with sorrow did freeze
And no one did see it, but his wicked eye,
And he went distracted and died the same night.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 07:52 PM

Steve,

The Fleet broadside is obviously a copy of an earlier broadside, probably the Roxburghe (c. 1750). There are only a few words that vary and a few corrected spellings. One change is:

She afterward vanished with shrieks and cries,
Flashes of lightning did part [dart] from her eyes;

Fleet had "part" instead of "dart" and dart seems to be better. There are no quotations in Fleet and who knows exactly how accurate the Roxburghe transcription is.

Thomas Sr. has several lengthy biographies which I chose not to copy here.

The Deming broadside of 1835 is considerably different and introduces new material that was either traditional or manufactured by the printer. This new material makes it easy to identify versions that have the material- however, if the material was traditional -- it predates the 1835 printing. If the new material was recreated then traditional versions that follow were based on the Deming broadside or the Forget-Me-Not Songster (same text).

This new material is found in the last version I posted from Captain Nye who traveled on the Ohio River in the early 1900s.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 08:03 PM

Hi,

As pointed out by Cox in 1925 there were other early printings that perhaps Deming copied since he didn't copy the Fleet broadside:

"The Gosport Tragedy" was printed in the United States as a chapbook (at Philadelphia?) in 1816, and again (at Philadelphia) in 1829 (Harvard College Library, 25276, 43, 81). It occurs also in The New American Song Book (Philadelphia, 1817), p.69. [Folk-Songs of the South]

I do not have access to these but I can check with the Antiquarian Society- but that's a long shot,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 10:31 PM

Hi,

Since we've examined several versions based on the two Gosport Tragedy broadsides here's one based on the third broadside, a shortened broadside usually titled "Polly's Love". This is the source of many of the British versions. This version is from Michigan. It starts off as though it's a cowboy version :)


    Pretty Polly - Sung by Fred Carriere, (1875-1954) of Champion, MI, on October 10, 1938, recorded by Alan Lomax, melody "Sweet Betsy from Pike."


It was in old western [city], in old westernshore
There lived a young damsel so handsome and fair
She was courted by a young man who called her his dear
And was know by his trade as a ship's carpenter.

The king wanted seamen to go about [the] sea
What caused his young damsel to sob and to say,
"Oh William, oh William don't you go on sea,
For don't you remember what you told to me."

Early in the morning she thought it was day
He called upon her and those words he did say,
"Come Polly come Polly, come along with me,
Before we get married our friends for to see."

He lead her through mountains and valleys so deep,
What caused this young damsel to sob and to weep,
She sobbed and she wept those words she did say,
"I'm afraid to my heart you have led me astray."

" 'Tis true 'tis true," young William did say,
"For many long nights I've been digging your grave,"
When she saw her grave open and a spade lying by,
She wrung her poor hands and most bitterly cried,

"Oh pardon, oh pardon," pretty Polly did say,
I live no longer than to become your wife,
I'll sail this world 'round and set you quite free
If you only will pardon my sweet babe and me."

"No pardon, no pardon, there is no time to stand,
And for these times he drew a knife to hand,
He pierced her through the heart till her life blood did flow,
And into her grave her sweet body did throw.

He covered her over so snug and secure,
So no one would find her he thought he'd made sure;
He jumped up on board ship to sail this world round,
Before this young murder would ever be found.

He had not sailed for all but a day
Till the captain came up and these words he did say,
There's a murder on deck boys and the deed has been done
And the ship must be haunted and cannot sail on.

Up stepped a sailor who says it's not me,
Up stepped another and [the] same they did say,
Up stepped young William who stamped till he swore,
And he said it's not me I vow and declare.

As he was returning from the captain with speed
He met pretty Polly which made his heart bleed
She ripped him and tore him, she ripped him in three,
And this is for the murder of my sweet babe and me.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:48 AM

> The Deming broadside of 1835 is considerably different and introduces new material that was either traditional or manufactured by the printer.

Certainly there's new material in the Deming text. Most obvious, as you say, are the two stanzas in which the captain confronts the crew and says the murder will be hanged if he doesn't confess and left on an island if he does. But there are others, including the two lines in which Molly/Mary sees a grave with a spade beside it, and the line "Is this the bride's bed I expected to find", both of which are echoed in later oral versions. It seems safe to say that any oral version that includes any of these elements has either been influenced by the Deming text or shares with it a common source in which these additions had already been introduced.

Equally interesting, I think, is what Deming omits. There are nine whole stanzas (4, 8, 21-23, 26-29) and several individual lines in the Roxburghe text that have no equivalent in Deming. Smaller but significant omissions are the dropping of Charles Stuart's first name (becoming "a young man named Stewart") and of the name of the Bedford. It seems most unlikely that these names, once dropped, would reappear in the ballad out of nothing, so it seems safe to say that any oral version in which they occur must derive at least partly from the old broadside version (and not just from the Deming / Forget-me-not Songster version).

There are also a number of significant differences compared with the parallel lines in the older broadside; for example "and to lewd desire", "He said that is true", and "Let me go distress'd" in the older text become "in sin's hellish paths", "He said you've guessed right", and "Let me live full of shame" in Deming. And references to the original Royal Navy context are removed: "The king wants sailors" becomes "His ship must be sailing", and Portsmouth is changed to Plymouth. The presence of one or other of these in an oral version would also be a good pointer to its being derived (at least partly) from the older broadside text or from the Deming one.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:54 AM

PS. Richie, I've drawn up a table with the Roxburghe and Deming texts in parallel, marking the bits that appear in one and not the other or are significantly different between them. I can't post it here, but I'll e-mail it to you if it would be helpful.

Also, having done this, I realize that I was wrong in my interpretation of "And pled forth the paymount for to plough the whole sea" in Jeff Stockton's version. It looks much more likely to come from "And set sail for Plymouth, to plow the salt sea" in the Deming text than from the older broadside lines about the Bedford and Portsmouth.

On the other hand, Stockton's version doesn't all derive from the Deming / Forget-me-not Songster text. His stanza 5: "O pardon, sweet William, and spare me my life. / Let me go distressed if I can't be your wife. / For pardon sweet William is the worst of all men, /For the Heavens will reward you when I am dead and gone." contains details from stanza 17 of the older broadside that are not in the Deming version – although a line from the equivalent stanza in the Deming version, "Is this the bride's bed I expected to find", turns up (with "bright bed") in Stockton's stanza 4. So Stockton's version can't be traced just to the Deming text or to the older broadside text: it contains elements specific to each of them. I wonder how often this happens in the other oral versions – and also what it means for tracing how the song evolved.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 10:32 AM

Hi,

This traditional version from Kentucky has elements of "Gosport" at least enough to show the connection.

"Pretty Polly" Addie Graham, born before 1900 in Kentucky, from recording, Been A Long Time Traveling.

In London city I used to dwell
In London city I used to dwell
In London city I used to dwell
I left Pretty polly I loved so well.

I talked to pretty Polly one whole long night
I left the next morning before daylight.

Sweet William, Sweet william you're leading me astray
I am a poor girl, my body to betray.

I led her o'er hills and valleys so deep
At length Pretty Polly began to weep.

Oh now we are here no time to stand,
And since [1] I've taken my knife in my hand

I stobbed her to the heart, the blood it did flow,
And into the grave Pretty Polly did go.

I threw some dust over her, turned to go home
Left nothing but the birds to mourn.

Went on a piece farther, saw I hadn't done right
Went raving distracted and died the same night.

1. usually "Instantly" perhaps folk process here

-------

Concerning Mike Watterson's recording- is it taken from Paddy McCluskey's "Young Willie" or is it a similar version?

Does anyone have access to William Christie's version in Traditional Airs Volume 2, circa 1889 ?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 12:10 PM

William Christie's Traditional Ballad Airs can be downloaded from the website of the School of Celtic and Scottish Studies at Edinburgh University: http://www.ed.ac.uk/literatures-languages-cultures/celtic-scottish-studies/research-publications/research/internal-projects/trad

The Gosport Tragedy is at pp. 98 and 99 of vol. 2. Only the first six stanzas are given:

IN Gosport of late a young damsel did dwell,
For wit and for beauty did many excel,
A young man did court her for to be his dear,
And he by his trade was a ship carpenter. A young man, &c.

He said, " My dear Molly, if you will agree,
And now will consent, love, for to marry me,
Your love it will ease me of sorrow and care,
If you will but marry a ship carpenter." Your love, &c

"The life of a virgin, sweet William, I prize ;
For marriage brings sorrow and trouble likewise;
I'm loth for to venture, and therefore forbear,
For I will not marry a ship carpenter." I'm loth, &c.

This pass'd on a while, at length we do hear,
The king wanted sailors, to sea he must steer;
Which griev'd the young damsel indeed to the heart,
To think that with William she now soon must part. Which griev'd, &c.

She said, "My dear William, ere you go to sea,
Remember the vows which you made unto me;
And if you now leave me, I ne'er shall have rest,
Oh, why will you leave me with sorrow oppress'd !" And if, &c.

The kindest expressions to her he did say,
"I'll marry my Molly ere I go away;
And if that to me to-morrow you'll come,
The priest shall be brought, love, and all shall be done." And if, &c.

This is from Buchan's version (as indeed Christie says in his note to the song), with "kindest expressions" rather than the Roxburghe version's "kind embraces" (compare the "tender expressions" in the Deming version) and the line about bringing the priest instead of "A licence I'll buy, and it shall be done" (different also from "The ring I can buy, our fond union to crown" in Deming). The air on p. 98 is described as "from the singing of Jamie Coul, Port Gordon". According to the note, when he sang the whole ballad and people said: "Jamie, that's a lang sang!" he would reply: "I wouldna care sae muckle for the lenth o't gin it werena sae wicious cruel on the woice."

It says on page 99 that there is another version of the air in the appendix, but there doesn't seem to be.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:45 PM

Hi,

I'm posting this last version of Gosport from North America which comes from Carrie Grover of Gorham, Maine whose family versions date back at least to the mid-1800s. Carrie Spinney (Grover) was born in 1879 in Black River, Nova Scotia. She moved to Maine when she was 12.

The spelling of "ere" is same as in the Deming broadside/ Forget-Me not songster which makes me think a print version may have been used to supplement her text. Cf 1844 Songster; Brown A and B; and especially Mackenzie (Nova Scotia version).

Gosport Tragedy- As sung by Carrie Grover of Gorham, Maine. "A Heritage of Songs" 1973.

In Gosport of late, a young damsel did dwell
For wit and for beauty, few could her excel
A young man did court her for to be his dear,
And he by his trade was a ship's carpenter.

He said, "Dearest Mary, if you will agree,
And give your consent dear for to marry me;
Your love, dear, can cure me of sorrow and care,
Consent then to wed with a ship carpenter."

With blushes as charming as roses in bloom,
She said, "Dearest William, to wed I'm too young;
For young men are fickle, I see very plain;
If a maid is kind, her they quickly disdain."

"My charming Mary, how can you say so?
Your beauty is the haven to which I would go,
And if I find channel when I chance for to steer,
I there will cast anchor and stay with my dear."

It was all in vain that she strove to deny,
For he, by his cunning, soon made her comply;
And by his base deception he did her betray,
And in sin's hellish path he did lead her astray.

Now when this[1] young damsel with child she did prove,
She soon sent the tidings to her faithless love,
He swore by the heavens that he would prove true,
And said "I will marry no damsel but you."

At length these sad tidings she came for to hear,
His ship is a-sailing, for sea he must steer,
Which pained this poor damsel and wounded her heart
To think with her true love so soon she must part.

She said, "Dearest Willie 'ere you go to sea,
Remember the vows you have made unto me,
If you go and leave me, I never can find rest,
Oh, how can you leave me with sorrow oppressed?"

With tender embraces he to her did say,
"I'll marry my true love 'ere I go to sea,
And on the morrow my love I can ride down,
The ring I can buy our fond union to crown."

With tender embraces they parted the night,
And promised to meet the next morning at light;
William said, "Dearest Mary you must now go with me,
Before we are married, our friends for to see.

He led her o'er hills and through hollows so deep,
Till at length this fair damsel began for to weep;
"Oh Willie, I fear you have led me astray,
On purpose my innocent life to betray."

He said, "You've guessed right, for no power can you save,
For 'twas only last night I was digging your grave."
When poor wretched Mary did hear him say so,
The tears from her eyes like a fountain did flow.

Then down on her knees Mary to him did say,
"Oh take not my life lest my soul you betray.
Oh pity my infant, and spare my poor life;
Let me live full of shame if I can't be your wife."

"Oh there is no time thus disputing to stand,"
And taking his sharp cruel knife in his hand,
He pierced her fair breast whence the blood it did flow,
And into the grave her fair body did throw.

He covered her body and quick hastened home,
And left nothing but the small birds her fate for to mourn.
He returned to the ship without any delay,
And set sail for Plymouth to plow the salt sea.

One night to the captain this fair maid did appear
And she in her arms held an infant most dear.
"Oh help me, oh help me," she to him did say.
Then to his amazement she vanished away.

The captain then summoned his jovial ship's crew
And said, "My brave fellows, I fear some of you
Have murdered some damsel ere you came away
Whose injured ghost haunts you all on the salt sea."

Then poor, frightened Willie he fell on his knees
The blood in his veins seemed with horror to freeze.
It's "Oh cruel monster, and what have I done?
God help me, I fear my poor soul is undone.

Oh poor, injured Mary, your forgiveness I crave,
For soon must I follow you down to the grave."
No one but this poor wretch beheld the sad sight,
And, raving distracted, he died the next night.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:47 PM

Slightly off topic but important all the same. Such an early printing of a traditional ballad in America is new to me, if we put a rough date of say 1750 on it, which seems reasonable. This begs the question how much more material of a similar nature is/was extant? If anywhere in North America was likely to come up with such material one would immediately think of Boston, but maybe there were other outlets as well. The only early broadside ballads I've seen printed in America are political ones relating to the War of Independence.

I have an ulterior motive here apart from the general interest: The earliest/fullest versions of Bramble Briar were found in America, (Thompson) the earliest in New England. Could it be there was a version printed in New England? Do printers' catalogues exist, like those of the Diceys?

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 01:59 PM

Jim,
Many many thanks once again for sending me those articles/papers. They are full of the most exciting information and they give great encouragement to my own researches. Andersen, Pettitt, Mary Ellen Brown, Sigi Rieuwerts, Paula McDowell, they should be compulsory reading for all scholars of ballad history. Unfortunately not being attached to a University they do not fall into my pocket easily.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 09:01 PM

Steve,

I use Worthington Chauncey Ford. "Broadsides, Ballads &c. Printed in Massachusetts, 1639-1800," (1922), it's online (google books)

Another book is Guide to the Study of United States Imprints, Volume 1
by George Thomas Tanselle; which is partially available (preview- google books).

Both the Harvard Library and Antiquarian Society are accessible via email and telephone.

I've had trouble getting some books and MS copies from libraries here. Many of master thesis with collections of folks songs are not available unless you visit the library where it's housed. The same is true with many collections of ballads and songs in MS form.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 09:16 PM

Several "Pretty Polly" Kentucky versions begin "In London city I used to dwell" and end "Went raving distracted and died the same night" but do not "Ship's carpenter" or her ghost.

Several versions though are complete US versions - Steve - you mentioned Pettit and I assume you are referring to Katherine Pettit, who published the first Hindman collected ballads in the Journal of American Folklore in 1907 (via Kirttedge). Here's the A version which does mention her ghost in an ending similar to but different than the "Polly's Love" broadside of c. 1820:

A. Pretty Polly; Hindman, KY pre1907; collected by Katherine Pettit

1. "O where is Pretty Polly?"
"O yonder she stands,
Gold rings upon her fingers,
Her lily-white hands."

2. "O Polly, O Polly,
Polly," said he,
"Let's take a little walk
Before married we be."

3. "O William, O William,
I don't want to go;
Your people is all against it,
And this you will know."

4. He led her over high hills,
And hollows so steep,
At length pretty Polly
Began to weep.

5. "O William, O William,
O William," says she,
" I fear your intention
Is for to murder me."

6. "Polly, O Polly,
You have guessed about right;
I was digging your grave
The best part of last night."

7. They went on a little farther,
And she began to shy;
She saw her grave dug
And the spade a-sitting by.

8. She threw her arms around his neck,
Saying, "I am in no fear;
How can you kill a poor girl
That loves you so dear?"

9. "O Polly, O Polly,
We have no time to stand."
He drew his revolver
All out in his hand.

10. He shot her through the heart,
Which caused the blood to flow,
And into her grave
Her fair body he did throw.

11. He threw her in the grave;
Straightways he did run,
Left no one to weep
But them small birds to mourn.

12. The ship sitting ready
All on the sea-side,
He swore by his Maker
He'd sail the other side.

13. All on whilst he was sailing,
The ship she sprang a leak,
And away to the bottom
Sweet William he sank.

14. There he met with pretty Polly,
All in the gores of blood,
In her lily-white arms
An infant of mine.

15. Such screaming and hallowing,
It all passed away;
A debt to the devil,
He surely had to pay.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 05:32 AM

Steve, You're most welcome. I'm glad to be of help if I can.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 11:18 AM

The US Appalachian versions known as "Pretty Polly" are based on theses stanza of the 1750 and 1776 Gosport Tragedy broadsides:

So with kind embraces he parted that night,
She went to meet him in the morning light;
He said, "Dear charmer thou must go with me,
Before we are wedded, a friend to see."

He led her through valleys and groves so deep,
At length this maiden began for to weep;
Saying, "William, I fancy thou leadst me astray,
On purpose my innocent life to betray."

He said, "That is true, and none you can save,
For I all this night have been digging a grave."
Poor innocent soul! when she heard him say so,
Her eyes like a fountain began for to flow.

[This next stanza about her child is usually missing]

Her hands white as lillies in sorrow she wrung,
Beseeching for mercy, saying, "What have I done
To you my dear William, what makes you severe?
For to murder one that loves you so dear."

He said, "Here's no time disputing to stand,"
And instantly taking the knife in his hand;
He pierced her body till the blood it did flow,
Then into the grave her body did throw.

He cover'd her body, then home he did run,
Leaving none but birds her death to mourn;

Additional text themes come from the broadsides, other sources and the "boarding a ship which sinks" theme may have been adapted from The House Carpenter.

Richie

Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY POLLY (Cari Norris)
From: Richie
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 12:33 PM

Hi,

This is a standard Kentucky version from Cari Norris who learned it from her grandmother Lily Mae Ledford. Here's the version on youtube with images of my painting- Cari played banjo and I played guitar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV8fnwYm58I

Lily Mae also recorded a version with The Coon Creek Girls.

Pretty Polly- learned from Lily Mae Ledford by her grandaughter Cary Norris. The banjo is Lily Mae's from the 1930s.


I used to be a rounder I've been around this town,
I used to be a rounder I've been around this town,
I courted Pretty Polly I've been all around.

Where is Pretty Polly? Oh yonder she stands,
Where is Pretty Polly? Oh yonder she stands,
Diamonds on her finger and her lily white hands

Polly, Pretty Polly come along with me, [bis.]
Before we get married some pleasure to see.

He lead her over hills and valleys so deep,
Then Pretty Polly, she began to weep.

willie, oh willie I'm afraid of your ways
I'm afraid you're going to lead me astray.

Poly, oh Polly your guess is about right,
I dug on your grave the biggest part of last night,

She went a little further and what did she spy,
A new dug grave with a spade lying by.

She threw her arms around him and begged for her life,
Deep into her bosom he plunged the fatal knife.

She fell to the ground and the blood it did flow,
Then into her grave Pretty Polly did go.

He threw the dirt around her and turned to go home,
No one around but the birds to weep and mourn.

A debt to the devil Willie must pay,
For killing Pretty Polly and running away.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 12:34 PM

Richie, the Pettitt I was referring to was Tom Pettitt, who with Flemming G. Andersen in JAFL in 1979 totally swept the board with David Buchan's silly oral-formulaic composition theory using Mrs Brown's ballads.

Andersen's 'Commonplace and Creativity' is well worth getting hold of, dealing with what we more commonly here refer to as floating verses (commonplaces/formulaic poetry). This is an area that needs much more study in the Child Ballads. I personally think those sophisticated people who were making up and editing ballads in the 18th and early 19th centuries were passing these freely from one ballad to another in order to make their compositions/re-compositions look more traditional.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 01:16 PM

OK,

The Pettit version I posted was from Hilliard Smith of Kentucky and a MS version was given to Campbell in 1910. In 1917 Sharp collected the same version (his C). Smith sang the ballad two ways- with two endings (see Sharp MS).

The Coon Creek version is here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ZCQmD2m0Q

The Coon Creek Girls formed in the mid- 1930s in Renfro Valley (as a radio group) and were sisters Lily May and Rosie Ledford (from Powell County, Kentucky) along with Esther "Violet" Koehler (from Indiana) and Evelyn "Daisey" Lange (from Ohio).

After listening to both I have a correction:

"Gold, diamonds on her fingers and her lily white hands"

It's sung fast so. . .

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 02:10 PM

Hi,

I'm looking for some traditional British versions. This one is based on Polly's Love, and is the possible source of the Mike Waterson version (anyone know?).

YOUNG WILLIE (THE CRUEL SHIP'S CARPENTER)
Sung by Paddy McCluskey, Clough Mills, Co. Antrim.
5th August, 1953. Recorded by Peter Kennedy and Sean O'Boyle.

1. Fair ones are shining on foreign earth and town.
There lived a young damsel, her name was Miss Brown
She courted young Willie her darling to be
His trade's name and steady a ship's carpenter had been.

2. Early one morning, before it was day
A voice came to the window and unto her did say,
"Rise I up, lovely Mary, and come along with me
Before you get married our friends we must see."

3. He led her through fields and through valleys so deep
Till at length lovely Mary begin for to I weep
Saying: "Willie, lovely I Willie you have led me all wrong (astray)
Through fields and through valleys my life for to betray."

4. "It's just the truth you say me; it's just the truth you say
For late, late last night I was digging your grave
Your grave that is open and a spade standing by
And into the grave your fair body must go (lie).

5. He stobbed her, he stobbed her till the red blood did flow
And into the grave her fair body did throw.
He hobbed her so neatly and he hobbed her so sound
Expecting this murder would never be found.

6. Early one I morning before it broke day
Up came the captain and thus he did say,
"There's I murder on shipboard has lately been done
Our good ship's in mourning and cannot sail on."

7. Up came a sailor: "Indeed, sir not I."
Up (came another: "Indeed, sir not I."
But up came young Willie to damn, curse and swear,
"Indeed, sir, not I, sir, I vow and declare."

8. As Willie was going and turning around
He met lovely Mary she I was dressed in brown.
She catched him, she catched him, she tore him in three,
Saying "That's for the murder of baby and me."

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 02:18 PM

Richie,
If you haven't already got a copy, among the extracts Jim sent me was Barre Toelken's 1967 study 'An Oral Canon for the Child Ballads: Construction and Application' which looks at the 135 Child Ballads found in reliable oral tradition. He uses principally, Coffin, Bronson and Keith as his sources to decide which ballads merit being accepted as folklore. If Jim hasn't got his copy to hand I can easily scan mine and send it. I think you would find it very useful.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 31 Mar 16 - 07:23 PM

Hi Steve,

Toelken's article is on my site here:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/1an-oral-canon-for-the-child-ballads.aspx

TY

I'm going to put a few traditional British versions on- this is based on the broadside Polly's Love. It's from the Henry Hammond Manuscript Collection (HAM/2/1/25).

Polly - as sung by Mrs. Gulliver, of Combe Florey, Somerset in May, 1905. Collected by Henry Hammond

1. 'Twas early in the morning by the brink of the day,
He went to this poor girl and this he did say,

2. "Oh! Polly dearest Polly you mus go with me
En before we are married, our friends to see."

3. 'Twas early in the morning by the brink of the day,
He went to this poor girl and led her astray.

4. He led her thro' woods and valleys so deep
which caused this poor girl to sigh and to weep.

5. He led her thro' woods and valleys so deep
which caused this poor girl to sigh and to say,

6. "Oh Willie, dear Willie, you've led me astray,
On purpose my hand and by body to destroy.

7. Oh! Polly, dearest Polly your words it is true
For all this long night I've been digging for you."

8. "For the grave it is open, and the spade's standing by,
On purpose to bury you, to bury you today."


9. Oh! pardon for me," poor Polly she cried
For remember dear William I'm not fit to die."

10. So quick-a-ly he stabbed her, and the blood 'gan to flow [flew][1]
And into this cold grave poor Polly he threw.

11. He covered her up so safe and secure
For thinking the murder would never be found.[2]

12. "There is murder! There is murder has lately been done!
For the ship is in mourning and will not sail on."

13. Then up steeped the captain and up stepped he,
And up stepped young William: "I'll swear it's not me."

14. So quick-a-ly he turned around, then who should he see,
For murdering the baby, the baby and she!

15 She rant him, she strant him, she tore him in three,
Because he had murdered the baby and she.

1, Sung "flew" to rhyme with "threw"
2. Missing the following stanza where he boards the ship

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 04:53 AM

> and is the possible source of the Mike Waterson version

So it says at any rate in the sleeve notes quoted at https://mainlynorfolk.info/peter.bellamy/songs/thecruelshipscarpenter.html.

I guess "Fair ones are shining on foreign earth and town" is a rather splendid mondegreen for the usual "In fair Worcester city and in Worcestershire" (maybe via something like "In fair Worcestershire, in fair Worcester town"?), and once the first line had come to end in "town", "Miss Brown" was introduced to make the next line rhyme. I notice the "town... Miss Brown" rhyme is also in Mrs Kenny's Nova Scotia text that you posted earlier.

I wonder, have the "early one morning" bits in stanzas 2 and 6 been borrowed from "All Jolly Fellows that Follow the Plough"? (I don't mean just by Paddy McCluskey -- they're in the broadside text too.) Or are they just a commonplace? I can't think of other examples.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 12:28 PM

Richie,
When did Mike record 'Young Willie'? A close mate of ours, Jim Eldon, was singing this version in the 60s in Hull. I'm pretty certain it's the McCluskey version. I always loved this version. They probably got it from the 1956 Folk Music Journal of the EFDSS as transcribed by Peter Kennedy and Michael Bell. I'll check out Jim's recording and see who got it from who.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 12:30 PM

I ought to add the folk club we all went to in the 60s in Hull had a full set of the Journals.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 01 Apr 16 - 04:00 PM

Hi,

Here's my quick transcription of the first recorded version by East Kentucky banjo player John Hammond for Gennett, April 8, 1925. He rerecorded it September 17, 1927. When Hammond identifies the location "Maryland town" the first stanza is reminiscent of "Polly's Love", the broadside. The second stanza is unique, a far as I know.

Purty Polly- sung by John Hammond, of Eastern Kentucky, 1925

Banjo intro

1. So [I] went a little bit longer, the city Maryland town,
So [I] went a little bit longer, the city Maryland town,
I met with a lady, her beauty is never found.

2. They call her Purty Polly, her name I knew so well
They call her Purty Polly her name I knew so well
I loved of her body and sent her soul to hell.

3. So where is Purty Polly? Oh yonder she stands, [bis. as before]
With the rings on her fingers, and lily-white hands.

4 Come and go my Purty Polly come go along with me,
Before we get married and pleasure to see.

5. He led her over hills and o'er valleys so deep,
Finally she mistrusted and then began to weep.

6 "Pretty Polly, Pretty Polly, what makes you so sad,
With nothing concerning for you to be so mad?"

7 "Oh Willie, oh Willie I'm 'fraid of your ways,
The way you've been rambling to lead me astray."

8 "Pretty Polly, pretty Polly, your guessing just right,
I dug on your grave six long hours of last night."

9 She threw her arms around him and cried into tears,
"How can you kill a poor girl that loves you so dear?"

10. There's no time for talking, there's no time to stand,
He drew out a weapon, all in his right hand.

11. He stobbed her through the heart and that blood it did flow,
And down in the grave Purty Polly sure did go.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 06:41 AM

Hi,

Jim Brown, I haven't received an email from you. Can you also compare the broadside, "Polly's Love"? I know there are only a few stanzas that correspond.

Nearly all the British traditional versions are based wholly on the c. 1825 broadside "Polly's Love" which mean the "Gosport Tragedy" version was only collected by Christie- who provides no text only reprints Buchan).

This is the only fragment that supports an earlier version. It's taken from Musical Traditions liner notes and shows that it became mixed with "Polly's Love":

The Cruel Ship's Carpenter - fragment sung by George Dunn of Quarry Bank, Staffordshire. (Recorded 3 Dec 1971, by Roy Palmer)

Two brace of kisses I had late last night
To rise up in the morning before it was light
... ... ... ...
... ... ... ...

(missing verses)

"Oh pardon, oh pardon, oh pardon", said she
... ... ... ...
"I'll travel the wide world to set myself free
If you will but pardon my baby and me."

"There's no time for pardon, there's no time to weep
For all the night long I've been digging your grave
Your grave it lies open and the spade is standing by"
Which caused this young damsel to weep and to cry.

Then out of his pocket he pulled out a knife
He plunged it into her heart
And the crimson blood did flow
And into the grave the dead body did go.

(missing verses)

Then up spake the first man, "I'm sure it's not me"
Then up spoke the second man, "I'm sure it's not me"
Then up steps bold William to stamp and to swear
"I'm sure it's not me, sir, I vow and declare."

Between this date, when he first sang it to me, and June 1971 George gradually retrieved more lines from his memory, without recovering the full text. Though he remembered that the final scene took place at sea he did not recall the avenging, ghostly appearance of the wronged woman,

As he did turn from the captain with speed
He met his Polly, which made his heart bleed
She stript him and tore him, she tore him in three
Because that he murdered her baby and she.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 01:52 PM

Hi Richie,
I've incorporated "Polly's Love" in the comparative table, as you suggested, and e-mailed it to you and to Steve.

As you say, most of the British versions seem to come from the Polly's Love broadside. William Christie doesn't say whether what the singer sang was the same as Buchan's version, but he does make it clear that it was an unusually long song, which makes it sound more like the old "Gosport Tragedy" than the 11-stanza "Polly's Love". Also in the North-east of Scotland, I see that "The Gosport Tragedy" is listed in the contents of volume 2 of the Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection, but I don't have access to the book to see what version of the song and how much of it is there. (Ethel Findlater's version seems to be close to the Deming text, and I guess it could have come from an American source -- I'll try to transcribe it when I have time.)

I don't really see why George Dunn's version would support an earlier version. As far as I can see it all comes from "Polly's Love", apart from the first two lines about "two brace of kisses", which don't obviously belong with the rest, and could easily have been added anytime in the 150-odd years between the printing of the broadside and the time the recording was made.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 02 Apr 16 - 03:03 PM

TY Jim

The chart is great, I've put it on my site here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/comparative-broadside-chart.aspx but I'm having trouble lining things up. Jim, if you can send in Jpeg one for each page I think it would work better.

You were right about the Dunn version. I'd seen the lines before but they are in US versions:

Through 'braces and kisses they parted that night,
She started next morning for to meet him by light;
[from Cruel Ship's Carpenter --Sung by Captain Pearl R. Nye, (1872-1950) on November 3, 1937. Recorded Lomax]

Now I need to compare the the traditional version to your chart :)

Please transcribe Findlater's version. I only have one edition of Greig/Duncan and it's not in it.

It's safe to say the both of the early broadsides Roxburghe/Deming were not traditional in Britain or else they would have been collected. There are 7 Canadian version of "Gosport" and four or so from the US, including the Nye version which corresponds to Dunn's fragment.

There's a Pretty Polly version Flander's collected from Sulivan in VT and the recording is online here: https://archive.org/details/hhfbc-cyl40 but it's so bad I can't make it out- anyone? It may be a different song.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Jim Brown
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 01:57 AM

No, I was wrong about the Dunn version. It didn't occur to me that "Two brace of kisses I had late last night / To rise up in the morning before it was light" could ultimately come from "So with kind embraces he parted that night, / She went to meet him in the morning light" in the Roxburghe text (very similar in Deming too), but now you point out how "embraces" could become "'braces", I'm sure it does.

So George Dunn's version could suggest that some of the old Gosport ballad had survived in tradition in England and got reattached to "Polly's Love", but perhaps its more likely that it had been influenced by an American version somewhere along the line of transmission.

I'll get back to you with the chart in .jpg and a transcription of the Findlater version - it might take a day or two.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:17 AM

Or more likely there was an interim British broadside which hasn't survived.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:18 AM

Many thanks for the comparison, Jim.
Will look at it carefully when I have a bit of free time.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:43 AM

Here's a quick analysis of the many versions on British broadsides. You might find different ones in the Roud Broadside Index.

The Gosport Tragedy or The Perjured Ship-Carpenter: (34 sts unless otherwise stated.)
Bow Church Yard (Diceys)
Aldermary Church Yard
Johnson, Falkirk
Pitts, London
Besley, Exeter
Various Forget-me-not-Songsters
Robertson, Glasgow (35)
Harward, Tewkesbury (33)

All the rest have 11 sts unless otherwise stated

Polly's Love or The Cruel Ship Carpenter:
Pitts/Catnach/Ryle/Fortey/Hodges, London
Harkness, Preston
W. Ford, Sheffield

Polly's Love:
Hook Brighton

The Cruel Ship's Carpenter:
Just about everybody following on from Pitts/Catnach all over the country.

Ship Carpenter:
Russell, Birmingham
Wm Walker, Newcastle
Wilson, Cambridge

Love and Murder:
Armstrong, Liverpool
Williams, Plymouth
Marshall, Newcastle
Pollock, North Shields
Bloomer, Birmingham

Nancy's Ghost: (10 sts)
Angus, Newcastle

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:46 AM

Sorry I missed a couple of useful refs.

Baring Gould in Songs of the West refers to a version in The Rambler's Garland (probably Gosport Tragedy)

And I have a BL copy of 'The Gosford Tragedy or the Perjured Carpenter' with no imprint but dated 1775. It has 17 and a half double sts. There are 2 printings of this in the BL.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 10:53 AM

The most common scenario with popular early to mid 18thc printed ballads is the longer original continued to be printed till about 1800 and the new shortened versions started to creep in with the popularity of slip versions about 1780. Then the 2/3/4 ballads to a sheet became popular in Catnach's time around 1820. This is very much a generalisation and there are exceptions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:10 PM

Hi,

Steve, can you give me an approximate date for the Roxbourghe broadside printed at Bow Church-Yard? Apparently it was either printed by John Cluer, or after he died around 1727 his wife Elizabeth or William Dicey (his imprint c.1730 was: Printed and Sold at Box Church Yard). The date would range between 1720 and 1750 (Epworth.



TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:29 PM

Sorry about the spelling in last post--- Dicey's imprint: "Printed and sold at Bow church Yard" Roxburghe (Ebsworth) dates it c. 1750.

The reason is if it's printed circa 1720 (as per British Library) then the events of 1726 (Fowler's article) would not have happened yet,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 02:39 PM

Hi Richie,
An approximate date even for these pieces is very difficult with such sparse info. The Dicey Marshall dynasty lasted a long time and I don't yet have a lot of info on their trading details. All I can say for certain at the moment is the Bow Church Yard address precedes the Aldermary Church Yard.

Here are some dates I have found
Wm Dicey at BCY 1740-56
Cluer Dicey at BCY 1756-63
Dicey & Co at ACY 1754-64
Cluer Dicey and Richard Marshall at ACY 1764-70.

All this really tells us is that one or other was at Bow to 1763
and from 1754 Cluer was established at Aldermary.

Subject: RE: Origins: Gosport Tragedy/ Cruel Ship's Carpenter
From: Richie
Date: 03 Apr 16 - 03:46 PM

Here's what is says in Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Volume 2:

[John Cluer, who afterwards became a noted music-publisher, first began in Bow Churchyard, Cheapside, with the printing of ballads, about 1700-10. He was directly followed in this line by William Dicey, about 1730; the imprint then merely gave, "Printed and sold in Bow Church Yard."]

Cluer died in 1727 and his wife managed until Dicey came in c. 1730. The question is what is Cluer's imprint? Also would Dicey's imprint suggest "Gosport Tragedy" to be c. 1730?

TY Richie