BS: To read or not to read

Subject: To read or not to read
From: Little Dorrit
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 05:39 PM

I would value your opinion on a matter that troubles me.

I have visited various folk clubs over the years, and sing unaccompanied usually, but not exclusively, english traditional music. Since I have never really built up a solid repetoire of songs, mainly through lack of time to memorise, and a full time 60 hours a week career - I always sing from a song sheet. The tunes I memorise because although I read music I am not in anyway proficient.Frankly, i have never thought that there was anything wrong with this, since a) It gives me more confidence knowing I will not struggle to remember the words-and I have seen many good singers ruin a performance by forgetting the odd verse b) proffessional choruses always have the libretto to hand c)I once sat thru a david bowie performance and he used cue boards all the way thru d) I am strictly amateur does it matter anyway? The reason I ask is because in many clubs this seems to upset people and not just one or two purists but really quite a few . I would value opinions before i go and tell the next person who mentions it to me to bog off.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 06:17 PM

I'd say start learning songs. People get upset because it's not traditional to do songs you don't know. People work hard to learn songs in order to make them their own. I don't mind someone singing off a sheet every once in a while, but all the time would bug me a little too. I've just started singing in public, and have a vast repertoire of maybe four songs I know well enough. I learn mostly by singing in the car. It seems to take me forever to learn a song, but I feel learning a song is as important as singing it. It's also part of what makes folk music folk music. Oh, and forgetting the words is also traditional! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 06:51 PM

Well, my sister and I used our own lyrics sheets last summer, mainly because it was our first public performance and we'd only had two rehearsals of about an hor each, as she live four hours away. Nobody at that venue seemed to mind at all. My dad, who perfomrs 2-3 times per week, uses a small index card with the names of the songs written on it in order, so that he remembers what is coming up next on his backup tape, but otherwise he has zillions of songs memorised over a lifetime of performing.

I tend to agree with Jeri, except as an amateur also, with little time to practise memorising, I opt for a cheat sheet. Confused? Me, too!

Kat

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 06:51 PM

I think I sing pretty well, but I just don't have the ability to memorize a song perfectly. I do a much better job on songs if I have a "cheat sheet" to fall back on. I eventually get the lyrics down, but I learn songs a lot quicker if I sing them for other people.
I think of song circles as informal gatherings with friends, where it should be OK for me to try out new songs, songs I may not have completely memorized. Many song circles don't agree with this, and look down on people who rely on cheat sheets. I disagree. I think they exclude a lot of good singers this way, for no good reason.
Now, if I'm actually performing before an audience, that's another matter. I should have the song memorized - unless it's a situation like a choir performance, where sheet music is expected.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: bbelle
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 07:34 PM

Like Jeri, I learn lyrics while driving. Learn a few songs by heart ... it gives you more credibility. If you forget a line, make one up! It's not all that difficult. You don't have to know a gazillion songs when you're just starting out. Learn 3 or 4 well ... ones that would be suitable to sing anywhere. Then work on a few more, even if it's one at a time. I was a professional folksinger for 13 years and believe me when I say I've had my share of flubbed lyrics. Once I completely blanked out the words to the 2nd verse of Guantanamera. Since it's sung in spanish I made up a whole verse of spanish-sounding syllables and no one noticed. Luckily for me there was no one in the audience proficient in spanish! moonchild

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: sophocleese
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 07:40 PM

I feel more secure singing if I have the song memorized. I'm not a fan of people who think that its easy to sing folk music and then fumble through connecting chords, words and tune together because they didn't bother praticing. Cheat sheets are fine by me; since I'm working now in a duo we need to write down more about our arrangements and I check for that rather than words usually. But I figure if you know the song but need the memory aid, partly for confidence, and it means you sing better, use it. People chuck jokes at me for closing my eyes while I sing, so does Eric Bogle.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Bugsy
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 07:44 PM

Personally, I don't like to see people performing with the aid of cheat sheets. I believe that, amateur or professional, if you can't learn a song well enough to perform it without the lyrics, then you shouldn't be performing it. In a lot of cases your audience has paid to see/hear you perform, and I believe that you should try to offer them value for money by giving as polished and professional a performance as possible.

As far as David Bowie using cheat sheets is concerned, I would be more than a little pissed by that. Bob Hope used cheat sheets all throughout his career. I've never liked him either.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 07:56 PM

The one time I saw Gordon Bok perform, he flubbed the lyrics on one song after another, to the point where it detracted from his performance. He said he usually relied on Muir & Trickett to know the lyrics, since he was singing bass and could fake it. I can sympathize because I have trouble learning lyrics myself, but I sure wish he'd used cheat sheets for his solo performance.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: jeffp
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 08:04 PM

I always prefer to learn the songs before I take them out in public. If I'm singing at a party with friends, I'll use a cheat sheet because they often request stuff that I don't know all that well. At one regular party, a 4th of July bash that my sister-in-law throws every year, I just bring Rise Up Singing and work from that. One year every time somebody yelled out a title, it was in there. But when I'm working on a stage, I learn the songs because it looks more professional and I can also then concentrate on the performance.

I've had my share of brain farts this way, and I just vamp on the guitar until the memory comes back or tell the audience that this is their turn to sing. If I see somebody playing a paying gig using lyrics for the whole thing, I get the impression that they just aren't properly prepared. Take the risk, you'll feel like you've accomplished more and you'll be surprised at how much you can remember when you make the break from relying on the printed word.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 08:12 PM

When I've got a new song, or one I haven't sung in a long time, I like to have the words there to check with - which can be tricky if you're paying a big guitar.

If you're straining to remember the words, it kills a song. But if you're reading a song it can kill it too.

So what I reckon you should do is try to learn the song so you know it, then sing it, with the words there as a back up, to give you the confidence, but not reading it -but not hesitating to us it in you find you need it.

What you want is to reach the stage with a song where you are past trying to remember it, where you sing each line without any concious knowledge of what the exact next line is. And that can only happen after you've sung it in public a few times. And even then every now and then you find lines just vanish in front of you, like stepping off the side of a cliff. And I've seen that happen to Eric Bogle too - in fact to everyone. It happens to Roy Bailey so often that he almost seems to use it as part of the show.

Most times singers fake it, and get away with it without most people noticing. But I once saw Eric Bogle get half way into a song, then tell the crowd he couldn't remember it, and he owed it a proper redering, so he'd sing another song while he got his head round it. Which he then proceeded to do, and the second time round was perfect.

One last suggestion - it's better to write out the words for your own songbook rather than use pre-printed ones - for one thing, it helps you learn the songs. And of course, it's more traditional - lots of the old singers used to build up their own songbooks which they used, and handed down.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: kendall
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 08:19 PM

Hey Joe, you were a witness to history in the making. I have known and performed with my best friend Gordon Bok for 40 years, and, believe me, he doesn't forget the words very often.

If you must use a cheat sheet, write big and put it on the floor. That way it is not so noticable, and wont come between you and your audience.

I wont lean on people who dont learn songs quickly, I've never had that problem, (I have others instead) and, my memory is the second best I ever knew of. My ex wife had a better one..she clearly remembered things that never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 08:56 PM

LOL,Kendall! McGrath, good points. My sis and I both had our own books and they were on the floor. SHE knew all of the songs, just used them for a quick reference. I hadn't sung any of them in about 30 years, so it was a good thing we had them!

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 11:44 PM

When you play in a niche band (Irish, in my case) in an area where there are only 10 or 12 bands playing our style, and 3 to 5 venues in each of 5 cities, you must have a very large repertoire in order to stay fresh. In the case of The Conklin Ceili Band that is in the area of around 200 songs/tunes. I couldn't survive without crib sheets to remind me of the arrangements and the first line/key words to a verse. It is true that there are many of those that I don't need the sheet for, but I have it there none the less. I reduce the song to a 5x8 card that I keep in a small three ring binder on a standoff on my mic stand. But having said all this, if you have to read that thing word for word, or read the chord changes, you are not ready to perform that song publicly. My cheat sheet only tells me the key, time signature, capo or not and then shapes, and the key words.

By the way, I saw Bob Dylan on his recent tour. He had cheat sheets on the stage.

At the Getaway I did sing from a sheet, but it was a brand new song in Irish that I was just learning, and Liam's Brother told me 1/2 hour before his session that I needed to sing........HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........we made it fine.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Áine
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:12 AM

Little Dorritt,

Perhaps you should check out some books at the library or bookstore about memory/memorizing things. There are several good ones out on the market now, many of them making use of the recent studies on how the human brain operates in the way of memory. I'm sure a search on Net could give you an idea of what is out there.

There are several 'tricks' that people use to memorize things, using mental, visual and aural techniques. Most good books in this area will give you examples of several techniques, and you can use the one(s) that work best for you.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Mary
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 12:30 AM

I think if I went to a paid performance I would expect the performer to pretty much know the words...with maybe the cheat sheet for backup... In song circles...the best ones will not be dependent on the "blue book"..with part of the group culture being that it is a preference to learn the lyrics by heart if possible...not to put people down that don't...or forbid it except in very private situations...but not to encourage it either...the singing is infinitely better (in my observation) without reading the words..One thing that I think people should be discouraged from doing is commanding others to take out their blue books and sing from a certain page....it's one thing if they do it themselves and others might follow suit...but .....

and sometimes it is best to just come out and state preferences rather than let people who are new figure stuff out the hard way...or by having the sometimes most enjoyable singers just not come back any more...

mg

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:37 AM

Wel you never see Ray Charles with cue cards, and nor will you see me. Consider yourself lucky if you have the faculty to do it, but don't get on a guilt trip about it. By the time you get to know your material well enough you'll want to get rid of the props, and start enjoying your audience. And as an aside don't ever let a big microphone obsure your mouth - you can never bond with an audience if they can't see your lips and smile. Enjoy, John

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Judy Predmore
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:39 AM

As usual, the answer is "it all depends": on your individual preferences, abilities, motivation, & available time. And who you're singing with, where, & why. Little Dorritt seems to be singing in informal song circles, not performing on a stage. So the standards should be very flexible & tolerant, while still encouraging growth. Unfortunately, there is always going to be some group pressure, even if it's unintentional or well meaning. I hope these people were just making "suggestions" to Little Dorritt, & not being "folk nazi's".

The purpose of song circles is to enjoy singing & listening to songs. To some, it's a more serious hobby, or they take traditions more seriously, but they shouldn't impose their standards on anyone. Unaccompanied traditional English songs are usually sung from memory. In the UK, it's partly because alot of people were raised in that tradition, & they've known some of the songs for 40 or 50 years. In the U.S., the type of people who are interested in unaccompanied traditional English songs tend to take their singing more seriously than people who sing chorus songs from a book. But there should always be room for people who are doing their best at any kind of singing, & their efforts should be enjoyed & appreciated.

I agree, though, with the suggestion that you try to memorize a few of your favorite songs that you already know fairly well (& keep your lyrics in your pocket just in case...). It will show the more serious singers you're making an effort. And you'll probably be surprised how easy it is to gradually build up a modest reportoire of memorized songs. But once you've memorized them, you need to sing them on a regular basis to keep them memorized, or just brush up on them before you think you'll be singing them again.

I thought I had a limited memory of about 5 songs, & once I learned a 6th, the 1st would leave my mind. So I gave up memorizing. Then I took Mike Agranoff's "Putting Down the Book" workshop on a Saturday, & on Sunday one of the participants sang a song she had just memorized in 24 hours. I was so inspired by her, & helped by a few of Mike's memory tricks, that I started memorizing songs. And guess what? The more songs I memorize, the more I remember. Memory is like a muscle, it needs to be trained, & then exercised on a regular basis. But only if you have the time & energy. You have to prioritize your life, & if it would add more stress to memorize more than a couple of songs, then that defeats the purpose of singing. But you may also notice that it's more fun to sing the memorized songs, because you can really let loose & sing your heart out.

I didn't mean to write with so many "should's". But this is a hot issue in Boston. A friend summed it up this way: "With the Boston folk society, I feel guilty if I lead a song that's not in Rise Up Singing, & with the NY folk society, I feel guilty if I do lead something from Rise Up Singing". In the regularly held Folk Song Society of Greater Boston (FSSGB) sings (not to be confused with the Boston Folk & Traditional Singers Club (BFTSC) that Barry Finn speaks of, & Dan Milner, aka Liam's Brother, was recently a special guest), anyway, the FSSGB's sings have become so dependent on singing from Rise Up Singing, with everybody singing everything (including songs they don't know), & no one leading much, that the more serious singers stopped coming. And people from the Boston Society who go to a NY Society event are terribly intimidated & sometimes insulted. Neither situation is perfect, but then what human organization is? Anyway, in Boston, I'm starting a monthly Sunday afternoon sing for the "Serious Singers" who can't go to the BFTSC's more traditionally run sings late at night in a slightly smokey pub. It should be a very interesting situation to see how the less & more "serious" FSSGB singers handle this new situation. It's a fine line to walk, to meet the needs of the serious singers, & to "grow" the potentially serious singers, without offending the less serious singers. All we can do is do our best...

I'd love to hear if anyone is having similar problems in their local song circles & folk clubs. Start a new thread if you think it's a hot topic... Thanks, Judy

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Escamillo
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 02:28 AM

There's always something to learn in the Mudcat. Now I feel more confident, knowing that experiences from so many performers. When I'm performing something popular (or whatever you call it) like old jazz, I always memorize lyrics AND use a cheat sheet because I know the audience appreciates it. However when I go into classics, I follow the tradition: to have the full score some place in front of me, not obscuring my body. People seem to not care about it, or even appreciate it. The reason ? Who knows?
I think John is Brisbane's advice is very good: to see a thick black thing obscuring the singer's face is something disturbing. A good technician will always be able to make some adjustments to allow you to sing some 3 inches above the mic.
Un abrazo - Andrés Magré

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: little dorrit
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 05:44 AM

Thank you for your comments one and all- I think the consensus of opinion is that it is ok to use crib sheets but its not most peoples cup of tea. Certainly no pressure is put on me to sing without and I haven't experienced any folk fascists but there are rumblings, but not directed at me personally. i only sing in folk circles and strictly for enjoyment. If I felt that any pressure was coming to bear I simply would not sing!yes I realise this is childish, but life is too short to be made to feel inadequate. I do not have any specific memory problems and could quote you great swathes of shakespeare tennyson and shaw but,- i must have sung Grey Funnel Line and Boys of Bedlam hundreds of times and I could not sit down and tell you the first verse all the way through even now. Funnily enough,my husband, who also sings is the most irritated by my inability to memorise

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Mudjack
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 07:41 AM

As you get older and the mind is expanding itself into stupidity, we seem to loose the memory. I am loosing my memory work simply because I don't have enough frequent venues to perform the songs. When I was doing Cafes and open mics on a weekly basis, I never lost my place or words in a song. But once a month venues and not gearing up or practicing for frequent gigs is taking it's toll on my biological data base.
I have always thought that the hardest hurdle to cross was the memory work. The more songs you add to your song list, the easier it gets. You just have to stay on top of them. You don't just practice a song or two at a time, you practice your set meaning a minimum of 20 min. practice sessions.When you step center stage to perform. I believe you owe it to your audience to have your material memorized because it gives you the freedom of having eye to eye contact with your audience. A very important tool for any one that "performs". I did see Pete Seeger with Arlo Guthrie years ago at the Greek Theater in L.A. pull out a song sheet and share a new song and I thought , Yeah, why not? he can pull it off.
Song sheets are usually accepted amongst friends. Just remember to keep the top of your head groomed, for that is what most folks are going to see as you share your song while looking down at your words.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Abby Sale
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:11 AM

As to ability to memorize, yes al are different but I agree that within that, for everybody " Memory is like a muscle, it needs to be trained, & then exercised on a regular basis." Hillel said that "He who fails to increase his knowledge, decreases it."

That aside, I hate to hear people constantly using song sheets in a club. It's not a matter of "tradition" (few of the singers are Source singers anyway) nor of competant rendition. It's different in a concert, especially a classical one - there I am paying to be "entertained" and am expecting a professional performance. In a club, I don't _want_ to hear a professional performance. I don't want to hear operatic (or even recording quality) voice quality. I want to hear a singer who has made a song his own. I do not want to hear the singer's word-perfect apery of Bob Dylan.

If the song, or especially a ballad, is learned - to me that means _Understood_. It's meaning, story line, setting, etc. A few text errors arer as likely to show the singer's interpretation as to confuse. A missed or collated occasional descriptive verse is irrelevant. Missing whether Willie gets killed or does the killing or both is different. The song should be _understood._

Yes, I would certainly encourage the new singer to get out there & try, cheat sheet and all. I'm enjoying the effort as much as the song. But the experienced singer just shouldn't need this - unless it's occasional, say, there's a new song that just _must_ be shared. I go to clubs to share songs, not to be entertained.

To those that really haven't the time or ability to learn songs, I just don't see that it's possible to personalize them - I'd rather they just brought & played a tape of the original singer. But these people _might_ be good musicians - consider specializing in tunes & instrumentals with just the occasional song.

Well, that's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:39 AM

Cheat sheets are fine. Don't worry about those get upset by your reading ... if it wasn't reading, they'd find something else upsetting!

Music is for fun, pleasure, enjoyment ... it is your pleasure to sing, and the pleasure of others to hear your singing. It's not a competition to see who's more perfect, who's is most traditional. Save the purist, perfectionist bullsh*t for the beauty contests. Read your music if that makes you comfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Paul S
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:40 AM

little dorrit,

You just answered your own question exactly as I would have (which means it is the RIGHT answer). Never mind the tight-arses who say you're not allowed to use "cheat sheets"; you're reading the words to ensure the quality of your performance (sorry jeffp, but when you're "vamping" on the guitar while trying to remember the lyrics, we all know that you've forgotten them). I don't believe anyone should be restricted from playing with others just because of a less than perfect memory.

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Paul S
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:45 AM

Whoops, didn't get to see Liam's post before doing my own. He really said it all.

By the way, jeffp, after re-reading my post, I may have sounded like I was being a real dink to you. I didn't mean to be. If you do this on a regular basis, you probably do it well, but a lot of people don't.

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: kendall
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 08:46 AM

People often ask me how I can remember so many songs(500 or so) and I can never answer them. I just dont know. I do think that memory,is like intuition, the more you trust it, the more trustworthy it becomes. Also believe that if you get addicted to a "crutch" you will never walk without it.

I keep a list of song titles and the keys on the top side of my guitar, just in case, I dont really need it, but, old habits are hard to break, and the audience never sees it.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: jeffp
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:00 AM

Paul_S: No offense taken. Fortunately, it doesn't happen too often, and the audience usually does realize that I have forgotten the words, because I am searching the ceiling for them while absently playing the chords over and over. If I keep it going long enough, I can play it for laughs and hopefully cover my embarassment.

McGrath's suggestion to write out the words yourself is a good one. It actually gets a different part of your brain involved in the process, which will help you remember. I've found that if I go to the grocery without making a list, I'll always forget something major, but if I make a list, I won't, even if I forget to take the list to the store with me. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Davey
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 09:06 AM

I once played in a group where we always used lyric sheets, during practice and in performance (nursing homes three times per year).. I found it made me lazy, and after performing songs 20 or 30 times I still didn't know the lyrics.

My approach now is to know a song reasonably well before I bring it out in public. I may or may not use the lyric sheet, depending on how confident I feel about the words, but even if I do, it's only for the first public performance of the song, and rarely after that. That's just a standard I've set for myself as a result of my experiences with a group.

I'm now singing with another group and we won't sing a song in public that we haven't memorized. Even then, we have, like many others, those distressing 'senior moments' when we CRS.

I realize my standards are different from many others and therefore don't criticize those who use lyric sheets as aide memoires.. On the other hand, those who spend the first part of a song circle waiting for their turn with their head buried in the 'book' looking for a song to lead when it's their turn, and being oblivious to what's going on around them...........'nuff sed..

Davey... (:>)

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 10:14 AM

One thing about learning songs, if you always read the words off a song sheet, they will never get into your memory. It's like driving someplace and having someone telling you when to turn. I can get somewhere many times doing this, and never be able to find the place on my own. When I learn songs in the car, I try to remember as much of the song as I can. I only use the sheet when I forget a verse. I also agree with McGrath about writing out the lyrics - they have to go through your brain on the way from your eyes or ears to the paper, and some of them may stick.

In a venue where it isn't acceptible to use song sheets, I have written the lyrics (or the first few words of each line or verse) on a 5"x8" card and kept it in my lap or fiddle case. I don't look at it unless I forget a line - it's discreet and folks may not even notice it. I also noticed on one occasion, a singer reading the lyrics in braille while singing. Now this is something people really didn't notice, because people don't look at a singer's hands, they look at the singer's face.

Re folk "facism" - "We're doing this scene from Hamlet for fun, not performing it for a paying audience. I don't understand why we can't just read from the script." Sorry - I'm not against written lyrics when they're used as reminders, but I still personally feel I owe it to the oral tradition to try to learn the songs I sing. (Not applicable to singing circles in the written, rather than oral tradition.)

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 10:19 AM

This is an extremely helpful thread.
I plan to soon attend my first song circle. It is comforting to know that lyric sheets are acceptable.

At the same time, I agree with the postings that feel it is difficult to 'let loose' when you are focused on the sheet music.
It reminds me of being in the theatre. I would not enjoy watching an actor reading from his script.

For my own reward and to make my contribution more meaningful to other's, I feel it is best to put the effort into memorizing the songs I would like to sing.

Little Neo Singer

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Mbo
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 10:27 AM

I usually find it very hard to memorize songs, even if I sing them a lot. And if it's not the lyrics I'm forgetting, it's the chords. It's hard to concentrate on both at the same time. Although there are some songs that I have all the lyrics memorized, and sing them a capella, but am clueless about the chords. So, I use cheat sheets. I usually don't sing off of them, I just use them as a reference point to glance at every once in a while to make sure I'm doing everything right.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: MMario
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 10:35 AM

I don't have much choice in the matter. Most of my {public} singing is done in situations where cheat sheets would be glaringly obvious and out of place. But most people don't do their singing in charactor as an illiterate peasant....

At parties I'll use a cheat sheet if handy - or just *gasp* admit I don't know the song...

But when I have a song I WANT to learn, I do it in the car, referring to the printed sheet as little as possible until I can remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 10:54 AM

Let alone the memorizing issue, I find that even something I know really well will just disappear if I get flustered - so a sheet of paper available to get back on track is great. It can also be really helpful the first few times you sing in public at a song circle, just because it gives you somewhere to look & blank out all those scarey people looking at you.... I know, I know, you shouldn't blank your audience out - but just for the first couple of times it can be really useful!! Presumably the more you sing in public the less you need to have a panic-sheet or an artificial focus. So, I suppose my theory is that when starting out it is OK, but perhaps after a while it is lazy & isolating (maybe). But if its either sing+sheet or no sing at all then the answer is to be discrete with the sheet & carry on singing.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: kendall
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 01:06 PM

that suggestion of writing the words down in your own handwriting works for me. Then I get a mental picture of them that sticks.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 02:15 PM

Singing in the car is a good way of drumming a song in, because you can't keep referring to the written words. Just keep on singing aline until the next one comes to mind. Or tape yourself, and sing along. In traffic jams it gets you a few funny looks.

Singing in the bath has the same advantage, and you sound better too. Someone explained that to me once - it's a combination of the acoustics and the damp.

The other thing is that, in the unaccompanied tradition, it is possible to use a written songsheet or preferably a dog-eared and chewed up handbook, as a prop while singing, the way performance poets often do. If you ever saw Henry Kipper, you'll know what I mean.

People referring to songsheets or handbooks is no problem to me. But what irritates me is when you get musicians in sessions who need to have all the notes in front of them before they can play anything.I'm not talking about beginners, or musicians with large repertoires who need an aide memoire, but people often with classical training who haven't learned to trust their ears, and listen to the people around them.

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: MMario
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 02:29 PM

How about the type that will STOP everyone to argue whether the other person played a "D" or "C" and use their sheet music as the prook positive thaty their way is right?

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:51 PM

When people ask me how I remember songs, I usually claim "I haven't a clue!". Memorising them is easy enough, I find. Like lots of those above, I get a set of words together and practice singing in the car - usually over a few days or a week. I then sing the song a few times in public, when the opportunity arises - quiet nights at the club, small hours of the morning etc. I frequently then lay off the song for a while and let it ferment in my head.

Remembering them long-term is another matter. If I feel the song suits me and I get some satisfaction out of singing it, then it just seems to set down roots. As I'm sure many of you find, you get to a stage where you start off on a song without the faintest idea of whether you will get to the end - and if I stop to think about it - I won't! Songs seem to go in cycles for me. Out of a repertoire of about 2-300, maybe 10-20% are in regular use, another 20-30% pop out occasionally and a few get dragged kicking and screaming from the darkest recesses on request or when another song suggests they would be appropriate. The point is - the membership of each group of songs is constantly changing!

IF you can use crib sheets or something similar and still do the song justice - great! I've heard the great Frank Harte use a little dictating machine to give him the starting note - in the middle of an illustrated lecture! He has no compunction about it and obviously felt he could give a better performance as a result. Anyone who knows Frank's approach to key selection will understand!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 04:05 PM

Prook?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 04:07 PM

Oooops - sorry; forgot to address my last comment. I was pickin' on MMario and his typo; "prook positive ...."

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: MMario
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 04:19 PM

wouldn't you rather have a positive prook then a negative prook?

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 04:59 PM

I do both, have a cheat sheet AND have my eyes closed!

Seriously, writing them out several times is a good aid to learning too, because you can nearly always close your eyes momentarily and see the page in front of you. Be warned though, write them out in several formats, in several places so that when a)your computer crashes, b)you lose your book or c) some bastard steals your book out of your car along with all your clothes and everything including the baby's changing bag, you still have something to fall back on. I had songs I'd written in that book and nowhere else, consequently I have to keep listening to people and if I hear one of mine, grab them by the throat and demand they tell me where they got the lyrics....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: To read or not to read
From: MMario
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 05:11 PM

*curious*

LtS? HAVE you ever heard any of yours since then?