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BS: Ark at the scoffers !
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Subject: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM Confession first....I am breaking my own customary habit o not being the first to bring up THaT TOpIc, but I just read something that seems strange . AIG open the ark encounter July 7th at williamstown, Kentucky with their full size conception of what it looked like. They included a video on their site of a well known atheist blogger asking for donations to fund travel to the opening event to hold a protest meeting there with yet to be confirmed ...cool speakers... The irony is , that it will add authenticity as the unbelievers mocked Noah too !. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: mkebenn Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM Pete, again I'm not the sharpest tool, but I'm lost here. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM Yup - a faithful copy of an imaginary boat. Total and absolute nonsense. Same intellectual level as Holocaust denial & flat earthism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM It seems that an organisation called AIG has constructed a full-size ark adhering to the exact dimensions as recorded in Genesis in the bible. They have mounted an exhibition for families to come and explore it. Some objectors have asked for funding to attend so that they can mount some form of protest, as presumably they don't believe the thing was possible. I have just watched the video of AIG, and saw large numbers of men in hi-viz jackets and helmets, lots of heavy plant, cranes and machinery, vast piles of huge timbers and some stuffed animals such as a baby giraffe and a deer. If Noah, with only the help of his immediate family (all the others were wicked, we are told, and fated to drown in the flood) managed to construct such a vessel, and in addition persuade a selection of pairs of carnivores, herbivores, insects, birds, mammals etc to board the ship... then he was one hell of a site manager! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM death to the infidels, I know I know. Let my death be attributed to gods vengeance. Does that make you feel better Bunky. I hope they fing he ark. I would look for the dna of the unicorns who died at sea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:32 PM By the way (just musing) where did Noah get a pair of kangaroos, polar bears, anacondas, penguins, idris, platypus and Siamese cats? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:36 PM Amazon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: meself Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM So ... what IS a 'cubit' anyway? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM It's the distance from the tip of a man's middle finger to his nose, facing forwards with his arm stretched out sideways. A bit under a metre, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:47 PM Correction - its the distance from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow - about 18 inches. The other one IS an ancient measurement, probably Egyptian, but I can't recall what it was called. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:49 PM cubit = the length of the forearm (or about 18 inches) Donuel hahaha! If I'd been on board (doubtful, as I'm extremely wicked) I'd have made myself responsible for the Siamese cats. Did they have Felix cat food in those days I wonder? Also, we're told the raven did not come back (presumably flew until it drowned) so how did the remaining bird reproduce? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:52 PM I had a lovely model of Noah's ark as a child in the late forties. The animals were all made of lead. I used to suck them (the elephants were the tastiest, I seem to remember) Do you suppose my parents were rather tired of me .....? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: DMcG Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:58 PM Are we going to see some observational science as they stock it with the appropriate number of animals of each kind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: FreddyHeadey Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM Ark Encounter "...Additional future phases for the attraction include a pre-Flood walled city, the Tower of Babel, a first-century village, a journey in history from Abraham to the parting of the Red Sea, a walk-through aviary, an expanded petting zoo, and other attractions that uphold the truth of God's Word." https://arkencounter.com/about/ Watch the video https://youtu.be/Nsk5S36AKfI Yes, they are using power tools today but remember Noah was 600 years old before God sent the flood. go to > 4:10 here https://youtu.be/7nFxl6N1nLw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM The Tower of Babel story is interesting from a linguistics point of view. Apparently the builders couldn't understand each other and so built a disastrously unstable and strange edifice. Do you suppose we might have the same problems in UK today with so many men from various countries across Europe on building sites? How do the foremen communicate their instructions? I can't quite see how Noah being 600 years old would help with the lack of power tools. He must have been using a Zimmer frame by then. I meant indri NOT idris above. Idris is the drink I drink when I'se dry. Still wondering about the kangaroos etc ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: FreddyHeadey Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM I imagine Noah had more of an supervisory roll by then. He would have had a team or family helping? Just chopping down all that timber must have taken a while. Have we got any quantity surveyors on Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: keberoxu Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM Sadly, brings back memories of Bill Cosby when his career was still alive. How we loved his storytelling, then, and for years after. What a loss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM My lovely father-in-law is called Noufou (Noah in Malinke) He believes every word of the story. I don't say anything, he's such a dear man. (Very old, but not 600) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:29 PM I have seen many inland Arks. They do make sense in California, Louisiana, Florida, all due to global warming and tectonic events. Mississippi tribes made mounds to escape flooding. Today they are deemed mystery mounds. Its good for the locals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:39 PM Well, whether it's true or not, the Noah saga is a pretty good story, and the source of some very good songs. Wikipedia says the dimensions of the ark were specified in Genesis as 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (440x73x44 ft where the front is a golden ratio). The "Ark Encounter" ark is 510 feet (160 m) long and 81 feet (25 m) high, so there seems to be some disagreement about size. Anyhow, we can safely say that the Ark was about 500 feet long, made of gopher wood - whatever that is/was. The battleship U.S.S. Missouri is 887 feet long and 108 feet wide, so the Ark was/is considerably smaller. I saw the Missouri in Hawaii. Our cruise ship, the Pride of America, was considerable larger at 921 feet in length and a beam of 106 feet. AIG is Answers in Genesis, a corporation founded and headed by Ken Ham. Ham, of course, is the second son of Noah. Shem and Japeth died some 6,246 years ago, after surviving the Big Flood and spending many years being fruitful and multiplying. You can get tickets for the Ark and the neighboring Creation Museum at https://arkencounter.com/ And the Ark has its own YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwFrI64absE3Zo8025TfVeQ The State of Kentucky awarded a hefty tax break of $18 million to the museum: There are lots of good stories in Genesis. I personally see them as sacred myth, but I don't really get too concerned about whether to believe them or not. But they're good stories, and I wouldn't mind seeing the Ark and the museum. It could be a fun place. The planned Tower of Babel could be very interesting, and I wonder how they'll depict the Garden of Eden and Sodom and Gomorrah. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM Genesis sure got the light thing right That's good. http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/231/manifesto |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Doug Chadwick Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:20 PM It's the distance from the tip of a man's middle finger to his nose, facing forwards with his arm stretched out sideways. A bit under a metre, I guess. Isn't that the yard? It's how tailors were supposed to measure yards of cloth. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:38 PM Well, this has floated nicely already, with mostly good humoured comments. There's been a few queries/ponderings so see what I can contribute.... Cubits , apparently in antiquity there was the common and the royal cubit. AIG have opted for the latter which is larger. They have also opted to make it look more like a ship, whereas most creationists have gone for a long box model. In fact I wrote a song called great big box, which usually goes down well ( er...reverse pun..) at singaround. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM Good joke about ham joe ! The ark took a long time to construct, and Noah was "a preacher of righteousness "during this time. He may have hired labour . He did,nt get the animals on board, God sent them. Sienese cats were not on board , they arrived by probably artificial selection a long time after. Probably not polars either , but representatives of the bear kind from which speciation to the various species. Insects were not in the two by twos as they are not creatures that breathe through their nostrils , as scripture indicates. But were they included they would take little room. Goodnight from here ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 16 - 07:17 PM Arkville was the neighbouring town to Toytown. Larry the Lamb wasn't too keen on it - but it was said to have a Town Dragon. You can hear about it on Spotify. Maybe this Ark could become a kind of floating Disneyland... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:07 PM An ark has no power plant or navigation aids. Ergo The ideal ark would have a hull shaped like a wide parabola and a bow on each end that slopes in toward the ship and not away from the ship which 100 % of cruise ships today unfortunately have. This self correcting configuration would behave in changing currents nicely. But the roll & spin effect on the passengers would be brutal. Buuuiiicckk EUUrooope |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:33 PM Maybe this Ark could become a kind of floating Disneyland... Its already fantasyland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:33 PM But will if float? Or do they have to wait for another Flood before they find out? Maybe tthey've got plans to organise one. Though of course that would be clear against what's guaranteed in the Genesis account... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:34 AM I'm not entirely sure when Noah built his ark but it couldn't have been even one million years ago. And 'speciation' would have occurred over several million years. So kangaroos, duck-billed platypus, pangolins etc already existed (and presumably being drowned by God) while the ark was bobbing around on the flood. Either that, or Noah did live during the Stone Age, so were woolly mammoths and sabre-tooth tigers on board? You can't have it both ways. I'd pay to watch a re-enactment of Sodom and Gomorrah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:45 AM If God sent the animals, I expect the local population were astonished to watch the endless procession of thousands of species 'two by two' as the song goes. Even those that breathe through their nostrils would have numbered...well, lots. They must have been even more astonished at their first glimpse of kangaroos and polar bears. Knowing Siamese cats, I bet you anything you like they got on board. The little sods get bloody everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM Like London buses, one's post won't arrive, then two come along at once! (Sorry about this, kept pressing but nothing happened.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM The 2007 film Evan Almighty told the story of a congressman (Steve Carell) who is selected by the Almighty to build an ark. Lots of entertaining special effects, and a pretty good story - and a fairly seaworthy ark. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:53 AM Pete, And the scoffers have it! Apart from the fact that it's taken dozens (maybe hundreds?) of people with all the modern high-tech tools, giant cranes etc years to construct, whereas Noah is supposed to have done it with 8 people in a much shorter time, it would never in a million years float. While it may do very well as a large timber-frame dwelling on land, the minute you tried to put it into the water it'd fall to bits. The apology for a keel is far too lightweight and the boat would "hog" in the middle and break its back as soon as you tried to float it. I can't even see that it *has* a keelson. In addition the framing is too light to stand up to the stress and movement it would undergo at sea....even if by some "miracle" the hogging didn't break its back, the frames would twist at the knees and the vessel would break up. And from what I can see there's no camber or crown to the decking, so any water that came inboard would drain badly if at all. Now I wonder why Mr Ham didn't build the thing to actually float? Hmmmm! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM Ah, Rob, them pesky facts again, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:10 AM That's right Mcgraph, we have Gods promise there will never be another global flood. Rob also commented on the Kentucky ark , and you are right , it won't float , it was built as an exhibit attraction and visual reminder of the original. It is a mistake , IF you were inferring that this was beyond the skill , abilities and equipment of ancient man. There were many things constructed that we have no idea for sure how they did it and that includes giant seagoing vessels. More recently a floating full size ark, btw, was constructed in holland. Oh, and can you show me where it says only 8 people were involved in building Noah's ark ? Senoufou , I,m not qualified to comment on speciation in much detail, except to say that it is known to happen faster than you suggest. You might like to google something like ...speedy species...for some examples .and i see no problem with mamoths and sabre tooth tigers being on board , and juvenile dinosaur for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:19 AM Ah Pete, that's not fair. You'll allow nasty old smelly woolly mammoths on board but you won't let two dear little Siamese cats on. If God can do absolutely anything (and we are led to believe this is the case) why didn't He just go "Shezzam! Biff! Bam!" and all the wicked people fell down dead, leaving the Goody Noahs and all the animals to get on with it? So much simpler, no flood and no need for all that felling of perfectly nice gopher trees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:43 AM Looks like a pile of shittim to me... oops, wrong ark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM There's some interesting Forteana concerning the alleged the drogue stones of Noah's Ark that have been articles of veneration for millennia. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noahsarkstones.htm A rather splendid Noah song: The Jubalaires - Noah and the Ark (1946) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 23 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM Pete: Rob also commented on the Kentucky ark , and you are right , it won't float , it was built as an exhibit attraction and visual reminder of the original. It is a mistake , IF you were inferring that this was beyond the skill , abilities and equipment of ancient man. Of course it was beyond the skills and abilities of ancient man to build a floating/ seaworthy version of such a vessel like this. It's beyond the abilities of modern man to build a seaworthy one from wood...it simply doesn't have the tensile strength and, as I said, would hog and twist itself into destruction if it was floated. Pete: More recently a floating full size ark, btw, was constructed in holland. Yes, and that one has steel framing and that is in turn built onto a seaworthy steel-hulled barge. It's just *clad* in wood over the steel....because it was impossible to build it all from wood and to have it float! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM Kentucky has an old time religion heritage. They have a Creationism museum that featured dinosaurs with saddles for humans based upon the "fossil record". Their best exhibit featured shows dinosaur footprints on a riverbank along with small humans. The church has the $ to build all this stuff since there are no better uses for it. Like a Disney land they are ongoing corporate concerns. Bill Mahre interviewed the guy in charge in the movie Religiosity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: frogprince Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:16 PM Maybe modern wood doesn't have the necessary tensile strength, but gopher wood was created miraculously strong just for the purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Stu Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:20 PM Yeah great attraction. You can take yourself, wife and the kids and be outright lied to, have the work of thousands of honest people grossly misrepresented and their conclusions distorted etc etc. Why be tolerant of liars? I guess some folk are ethically bankrupt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:21 PM That "ark stones" article suggests that Noah would have wanted to get the Ark to float stern-on to the waves. The ancient Hebrews were not among the ancient world's more noted mariners but they shouldn't have been THAT stupid. Maybe the dragons, hippogriffs, cockatrices and bonnacons were in the stern living quarters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:48 PM Do you suppose the ark had bow doors like the ro-ro ferries on the Channel? They would be lowered to let all the animals off when they docked on Mount Ararat. ("No shoving please! Disembark in an orderly fashion! Siamese cats first!") Dinosaurs with saddles eh? Bags I a Tyrranosaurus!! I'm not surprised that this venture is a 'corporate concern'. I bet there's loads of money to be had. I'd rather go to Dynamic Earth (marvellous scientific astronomy exposition plus huge dome-video in Edinburgh) At least the stuff they show you there is all scientifically verified and beautifully presented; educational and hugely entertaining. It blew us away last year. I wouldn't pay to go and see a daft ark that technically would never have floated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:13 PM Rob, yes the holland one was constructed on barges welded together , and the builder said that was to accommodate regulations not because it would not float otherwise. And as I previously mentioned , that was not the only giant vessel in antiquity. So it is clearly not impossible. Senoufou , I,m sure your Siamese cats would be allowed in, if there were any then lol! And as to why did,nt God do such and such , to have such knowledge would put us in the same league ! I think we are supposed to leave some room for faith in such matters. Stu, it is easy to toss out accusations like , liars, and ethically bankrupt, but it's another thing to prove it. What lies are being told at the ark encounter ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:16 AM What other "giant vessels in antiquity" do we have proof of? The largest known to have been all wood construction was the Wyoming....but her length (LOD) excluding booms was only about 100m, as the jib boom and spanker booms (essentially just poles) extended outboard a long way. Even so, she hogged and twisted horribly, let in vast quantities of water through the sprung planks and needed continuous pumping just to stay afloat. Eventually sank with all hands. Just not seaworthy. The Roman barge probably used to transport an obelisk from Egypt to St Peter's was also only around 100m in length, maximum, and was basically used once for a short voyage and then sunk. The difference in length between these only marginally seaworthy vessels and the supposed ark is 37m, which is a very significant percentage increase, and wooden vessels 37 m longer than these simply would not float. The builder of the Dutch "ark" may well have *said* that he built it on a frame of welded steel barges because of "regulations"....but the regulations are there because naval architecture and design parameters would show that a fully wooden construction would not have the longitudinal or lateral strength to be seaworthy....ie, it wouldn't have floated if he'd built the whole thing of wood. the regulations are there for a purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:56 AM The largest sea going junks, built in the 15th century, way have been up to 120 metres long . Not that the 15th century is antiquity, but the construction would have been entirely in wood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Stu Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:32 PM "What lies are being told at the ark encounter ?" Well, I haven't been myself of course, but from the website. Lie 1) It states: "number of historical events centered on Noah's Ark". There is zero historical evidence that Noad or his ark existed, and zero evidence for the 'events' in the story. The flood story was lifted from somewhere else anyway (can;t remember who). Lie 2) "THE GLOBAL FLOOD DID HAPPEN AS AN ACT OF GOD'S JUDGMENT." There is no scientific evidence of a global flood. Lie 3) "THE FLOOD OF NOAH'S DAY WAS A WORLDWIDE CATASTROPHIC EVENT THAT RESULTED IN LARGE-SCALE HUMAN AND ANIMAL DEATH, LEAVING BEHIND MANY OF THE PLANT AND ANIMAL FOSSILS AND LANDFORMS WE SEE TODAY." Lie 4) "historically authentic" They have no way of knowing. Further more, many of the illustrations of animals on the pages of the site show extinct megafauna, many of which died out way before humans were about; this is an sneaky misdirection. It's great people tell stories and keep their traditions, but when these are presented as fact then the people doing the presenting are liars. Someone's going to make a few bucks off this though, and I'm sure they will be very comfy with running the con. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM The 'God' of the Old Testament sounds like a vengeful, murderous brute to me. The twelve plagues of Egypt, The Great Flood, Adam and Eve and many other events all involve the death and destruction of innocent children, old people and wildlife, even if one is in agreement with wiping out the sinners. (I'm not in favour of that myself) He seems to have created some pretty ghastly items too. Diseases and parasites we could well do without. IF the Ark story is true (it isn't) imagine the terror of the poor people not invited on board, frantically trying to keep their children above water and screaming for help. Nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM What other "giant vessels in antiquity" do we have proof of? None. Nor do we have proof of the ark. Now, Pete- what about your belief in witches? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:54 PM McGrath: The largest sea going junks, built in the 15th century, way have been up to 120 metres long . Not that the 15th century is antiquity, but the construction would have been entirely in wood. As far as I know, this is an estimate based on extrapolating from a single sternpost that was found. The "may have been" 120m size is the upper end of a range of "guesstimates" and the consensus among maritime architects is that the actual size would have been a fair bit smaller than this. It's still a good bit smaller than the supposed length of the ark. We're back to the upper limits of the strength of wood again, which is simply a physical limitiation. There is AFAIK no reliably recorded case of a vessel constructed wholly from wood and which is longer than 100m being seaworthy. The few historically verified wooden vessels that we know of which were around the 100m mark were at best marginally seaworthy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:33 PM Well, those sea-going junks were extremely sea-worthy, they made some extraordinary voyages. How big they were is a matter of speculation. Only by building one using traditional techniqques, and the kind of timbers they could have had might it be possible to be sure how big they could have been. That kind of stuff is interesting - but of course it's got nothing to do with the Ark in Genesis. The Ark is a story to carry a message, like Adam and Eve and the Tower of Babel, not history. What matters in such stories are the message and the meaning. Sometimes there'll be some actual history in their somewhere, sometimes existing stories will be used and adapted. People who treat them as historical accounts completely misunderstood how the Bible was used and regarded for most of the time it's been around. It's analogous to the kind of dangerous and tragic misinterpretation that happens in regard to the Koran by some Islamic movements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 24 Jun 16 - 07:55 PM I am finally reminded that I did a series of 9 digital paintings of the Ark. The color and saturation was beautiful. They show the Ark at various times in its fictional existence from construction to its eventual underwater grave and rediscovery and were actually compelling, humorous and elegant in a unique primitive architecture and technology . Remember when Gonzo tried to board the Ark? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 24 Jun 16 - 08:57 PM It looked like an archaic Spruce Goose seaplane. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:41 PM It's surprising to me that folkies have such difficulty accepting the Ark story. As with many of the stories in the Bible, it is one of the most interesting bits of early folklore that we have available to us. It's a terrific story, and it gives a wonderful insight into the thinking of the age it comes from. But yet, so many folkies can only look on it as a lie meant to mislead people. I just really can't bring myself to believe that these wonderful bible stories are intentional deception. There's something to them, and I can't quite put my finger on it, but I can't dismiss them as lies. They're rich folklore, and they deserve to be explored. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:34 AM If they're to be seen as folk tales, then I suppose one can accept that. But as Joe says, religions have relied on every detail of the stories as being accurate and true. Islam is just as guilty of this, taking every utterance of Mohammed to be mandatory (and in the Hadiths, many things he probably never said!). I'm reminded of the Brothers Grimm and their gruesome and cruel tales. As a child I was transfixed by some of those. I used to love the Bible stories when young, (as I said above, I had a Noah's ark toy) but some of them are horrendously cruel and brutal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:40 AM My favourite OT story is the one about Samson whirling about with his jawbone of an ass and killing a thousand men. And his silly gloating song afterwards. He sounded like Little Noddy to me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 25 Jun 16 - 04:49 AM To relegate bible stories to moral fables as joe and Mcgraph do, is certainly one option , but I shall have to disagree and take them as historical as the church has done in most of its history , and as Jesus himself certainly appears to , though of course I realise that liberal theologians are quite happy to think he was mistaken too. Rob, says...no proof.., yrt were I to demand proof for the impossible claims of evolutionism I would soon be reminded that ...proof... Is asking too much , and science deals in evidence etec etc... Well, there is evidence of large wooden vessels in ancient times though of course, as with the bible, if it don't suit the critic such evidence and records will be dismissed because of their a priori assumptions. Chinese treasure ships , ships listed by Pliny the elder with multiple rows of oarsmen suggesting great size. There are others but even were I exhaustive , it would not be considered by the sceptics here , but anyone open minded might want to investigate further. It is impossible to say what might be possible , and if there were not the proof still here in archaeology a lot of ancient things would probably be trumpeted as impossible ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:36 AM Stu don't seem to be able to differentiate what is a lie and what is a truth claim. Were I to say evolutionists were liars , I would be jumped on straight away , but the same principle applies. News for you, stu....we all have the same evidence, it is how it is interpreted that differs. What you see as evidence for long eons , I see as evidence of the flood event. What you could,nt remember was the Gilgamesh epic , though there is also another fragment since that changes things a bit. However even if one ancient record is older than another , it is pure assumption as to which story was the original , but I know which one reads more coherently and sounds less fanciful . Senoufou , I can't decide if you are expressing doubts or defiance as to the love, justice and wisdom of God , or whether you just decide that if a story conflicts with your evaluations it must not be true. I would admit that there are things in the bible which I would prefer not to believe , but I don't accept we are at liberty to pick and choose what we can accept as true in scripture. Others may differ, but that is my stance , and I believe it to be more consistent. And I see little value in trying to explain , or throw any light on why God might or might not ....whatever...,if the truthfulness of the historical account is denied anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:16 AM Pete, I have no doubts as to the love, justice and wisdom of God as I see Him, but not the God as portrayed in the Old Testament. God gave me a brain (of sorts) and I was lucky to have enjoyed a very good education, so I do feel entitled to question, ponder and evaluate for myself, rather than swallow whole a tenet without inspecting it first. I actually admire very much your strong faith, and your willingness to accept the word of God as written in scripture. I also admire your determination to defend your faith against attack. You bravely persevere on here speaking up for God, and it's very touching. (Please don't take that as patronising, as I'm being honest and sincere.) I realise I'm cynical and sceptical, and my faith as such isn't as pure or trusting as yours. But as Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Raggytash Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:20 AM I believe there are in the region of 5400 different mammals on the earth. Times this by two and you have approaching 11,000 mammals on board an ark. Please note is figure does not include reptiles which numer about 9500 species again times two, thus 19,000 reptiles. Thus 30,000 animals only would have to be fed for 40 days and much food and fodder would be required. Just how big would an ark have to be to accommodate all this. Add to the figures above birds, insects etc. One further question, even if Noah had the skill to build such a vessel where on earth did he get the money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: DMcG Date: 25 Jun 16 - 07:10 AM You must be a newcomer to this argument, Raggy. The answer you will hear is that it is not "species" but "kinds", though getting a definition of what a kind is has proven impossible as far as I know. And it isn't two by two, either, to add complications, but that would make your argument stronger. No, I want to stick to 'observational science' and see them launch this thing with all the kinds on board and keep it going for 40 days or so... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Raggytash Date: 25 Jun 16 - 07:17 AM You and me both DmcG. I'd pay good money to watch that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Stu Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:22 AM "It's surprising to me that folkies have such difficulty accepting the Ark story.?" I don't think anyone has difficulty accepting the ark as a story or as middle-eastern folklore, the issue comes when it's presented as historical fact and used as a vehicle to peddle falsehood. I terms of folklore, it'd be far more interesting if we looked to our own ancient traditions rather than those of bronze-age bedouin tribesmen who lived ion the desert. Isn't that what many of us as folkies do? Give me Beowulf and Taliesin over the New Testment any day of the week, or the stories and legends from my own little patch of the world, which perhaps stretch as far back as any bible story, and retain relevance in the landscape I live in. "Were I to say evolutionists were liars" Well, you have implied that in the past Pete, and suggested the people involved in science were themselves dishonest, which is I have to be robust in the defence of science, art and free thought. I'm not implying everyone who believes in creationism is a liar, but the people who created Ark Encounter and the Creationist Museum certainly are. But I'm not interested in attacking the people themselves, rather the lies they peddle and the falsehoods they propagate in the name of their god. Gilgamesh! Thanks for the reminder! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:46 AM Stu says: I terms of folklore, it'd be far more interesting if we looked to our own ancient traditions rather than those of bronze-age bedouin tribesmen I dunno, Stu. I imagine my ancestors were Christian and/or Jewish going back centuries or maybe millennia. So, the ark is my ancient tradition. I find it ironic that so may people seek to tie themselves to Celtic or Teutonic traditions that they know nothing about, but deny the Judaeo-Christian traditions of their own parents and grandparents. Seems like a form of self-loathing. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jun 16 - 09:08 AM Please note is figure does not include reptiles Also doesn't include the fresh-water fishes & other fresh-water aquatic critters that would have perished in salt/brackish water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Stu Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:19 AM " I find it ironic that so may people seek to tie themselves to Celtic or Teutonic traditions that they know nothing about... Seems like a form of self-loathing." Hold on a mo, I come from a christian background too but have rejected it as it doesn't speak to me at all; I find it wanting when I ask questions of it. Having done my family history, there's much of interest in there about my family branches various religious traditions, and I love to visit the churches they attended. Their history speaks volumes to me, their religious beliefs do not (although had my Huguenot ancestors not been viciously persecuted I wouldn't be here today). We live in a country where our cities, towns and villages have been occupied for millennia, we travel along ancient roads and are surrounded by reminders of our ancestors, from the ancient kings lying under the barrows to the tombs join our local churches. We know about them as we grew up with them, so this isn't self-loathing but part of a deep sense of being part of this land and my ancestors, some of whom were Celtic as it happens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:25 AM I actually admire very much your strong faith, and your willingness to accept the word of God as written in scripture. Are Holocaust deniers, who operate on the same intellectual plane and with as much fervor and tenacity as creationists, also to be admired? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 25 Jun 16 - 11:25 AM I am finally reminded that I did a series of 9 digital Ark paintings. The colors are beautifully saturated. Starting at construction and ending with its underwater grave and re discovery. They are compelling and humorous in an archaic way since the Ark resembles s flightless flying boat. Remember poor Gonzo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jun 16 - 01:43 PM I was admiring Pete's faith in the written word of the Bible. I know nothing about how he views the Holocaust. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jun 16 - 02:00 PM Greg F says: Are Holocaust deniers, who operate on the same intellectual plane and with as much fervor and tenacity as creationists, also to be admired? You're getting a little far from rationality, Greg. Perhaps you owe somebody an apology. As far as I know, Pete has never said anything here that could be construed as denying the Holocaust. And he certainly said nothing of the sort in this thread. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:01 PM I see strong rhetoric but no personal accusations Joe. A better ark story could be brewing here. The dead sea scrolls that were just loose confetti were organized by a Chinese super computer and they discovered more than one ark was built. One by Damian, one by Noah and another one by Herbie. Damian made the dark ark that housed venomous animals, blood meal vampire bats, mosquitos, stinging insects, and predators that reduced themselves during the voyage by half. Noah had mostly puppies kittens and cattle on board. Finally Herbie was the botanist of the group and ate the most delicious things first like banana broccoli and tangerine beets and pineapple peppers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jun 16 - 05:41 PM Senoufou & especially Joe - please take a refresher course in English comprehension. Then please re-read what I wrote - not what you THINK I wrote, or how you SPIN what I wrote. Then try answering the question. Thank you both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:46 PM I know what Greg was saying . He claims that just as there are a few people that deny that the holocaust happened despite all the evidence that it did , so creationists believe in creation and the flood without evidence. To which I can only repeat that we all have the same evidence , but interpret it according to presuppositions and worldview. However, creationists repeatedly point out how the evolution story is contrary to observable, testable, repeatable science . As to the holocaust, that is verified by witnesses and survivors as well as much supporting evidence such as documents and buildings etc. however, I suspect that Greg deliberately chose that comparison to suggest guilt by his false analogy. And furthermore, I suspect that many on this thread suspect the same ! Thank you senoufou . I am encouraged that you did not intend disrespect or mockery of my God. I would just like to say though , that divorcing the God of the OT from the God of the NT will be no easy exercise without taking the scissors to quite a bit of the New. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 25 Jun 16 - 06:48 PM Be satisfied that they are both deniers Greg. But only one still has Birthday parties for Hitler. We have a Congressman who is a Nazi sympathizer in the US. Ironically he is a shrimp size version of Mussolini. I think you would agree this is thread drift. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 25 Jun 16 - 07:15 PM Well stu, there have been some liars among evolutionists, and there probably have been among creationists. There have been forgeries . However , I don't think that I have implied that dishonesty /lies are widespread in science or evolutionists , though I do regard evolutionism as a lie which source is more spiritual than human . If you can produce a post to the contrary I will either clarify or/and apologise for it. However, you have not established that those behind ark encounter and the museum are liars, only that they think they right and you think they,re wrong ! dMcG, they won't be launching it , and any observational science will be indirect. .....stuff like farmers that deep litter their animals for months on end, or animals known to hibernate over long periods, though of course we can never know all the details of how the day to day animal care was conducted on the ark. Raggy, sorry, I don't know how finance or trading worked back then , but we do know there were a lot of large projects apart from the ark in ancient times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 25 Jun 16 - 08:19 PM However, creationists repeatedly point out how the evolution story is contrary to observable, testable, repeatable science . Thank you, pete, for confirming that creationists are indeed on the same intellectual plane as Holocaust deniers - or possibly considerabley below it. Now, about those witches that you also believe in..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:23 AM McGrath: Well, those sea-going junks were extremely sea-worthy, they made some extraordinary voyages. How big they were is a matter of speculation. Only by building one using traditional techniqques, and the kind of timbers they could have had might it be possible to be sure how big they could have been. So instead of spending tens of millions of dollars in Holland and Kentucky creating "fudged" versions that either won't float or float only because they're built with steel superstructure on steel barges, why don't the literalists actually build one to the original spec, entirely of wood, and sail it? The problem with postulating vessels of either 120m for junks or 137m (minimum) for an ark is simply down to the strength of wood. About 100m, give or take a few metres for design variations, is the limit for seaworthy vessels to be constructed from wood. There *is* a plan to construct a large sailing yacht from wood which will be around 130 m long, *but* this will be built using plywood formed under high pressure. Wood follows the laws of materials science. Increase an object's dimensions and its surface area increases by the square of the multiplier. OTOH, its weight increases by the cube of the multiplier. An extension of this law is that when we scale up an object such as a wooden structural beam, the strength of the beam does not increase as fast as its weight. Applied mechanics and material sciences allow us to compute this very accurately. Scale up a wooden beam sufficiently and its weight will exceed its strength causing it to break from its own weight alone. Scaled up to the supposed size of Noah's ark and a stout wooden box would be quite fragile. If there was even a slight current, enough pressure would be put on the hull to open its seams (which we have seen time and again with relatively modern wooden hull vessels of 90-105 m, which required donkey engines running 24 hours a day to keep them afloat). Currents consist of eddies and slow-moving turbulence. This puts uneven pressure on the hull, and both Noah's ark and a 120m junk would bend horizontally as well as "hogging" in the vertical dimension. Wooden vessels of this size defy the laws of nature as much as the idea that you won't fall to the ground if you walk off a cliff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 26 Jun 16 - 03:53 AM Pete: To which I can only repeat that we all have the same evidence , but interpret it according to presuppositions and worldview. However, creationists repeatedly point out how the evolution story is contrary to observable, testable, repeatable science. And they're simply wrong when they do this. Time after time creationist "interpretations" of evidence are shown to be incorrect. They carry on using them nevertheless, sometimes for decades after they've been proved wrong, until (as with the bombardier beetle, the depth of moon dust and the leap second arguments), they become such a laughing stock that they can't use them any more. Then their usual trick is to post something in AiG or elsewhere that simply says "we recommend that this argument is no longer used". They never admit to the fact that they carried on propagating them as truth for years after they (Gish, Ham, Woodmorappe, Snelling etc) had been repeatedly shown to be wrong. To have your interpretation *proven*, unequivocally, to be wrong in a presentation or debate and then to continue using that same argument in subsequent presentations as if the proof of it being incorrect had never been presented to you at all is just dishonest. Evolution is absolutely not contrary to observable, predictable, testable science. But you never actually look deeper into the pronouncements of AiG and the other websites you get your "knowledge" from to understand this. I remember a year or two back when you started talking about C14 in diamonds. I gave you a full explanation of why the mechanism for this differed from that in organic remains. I quoted from and pointed you to the creationits' ORIGINAL "research" by RATE, where their own conclusions pointed strongly to an old earth, but were glossed over in the generally released publicity. Your response to my very detailed analysis was predictably woolly and hand-waving. Creationist "interpretations" of the evidence are about as strong and sensible as those used by the tiny number of people who still believe in a flat earth to bolster their own refusal to see how overwhelming the evidence is that the world is round(ish). They have to jump through incredible hoops to get things to "fit" whereas the alternate hypothesis fits the evidence like a glove. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: DMcG Date: 26 Jun 16 - 05:28 AM Yes, Pete, I understood they wouldn't be launching it. It was a somewhat tongue in cheek joke. However, it seems a shame that if they are trying to build a replica, they avoid what was after all the whole purpose of the thing. I accept some replicas are like that, such as replica guns that intentionally can't be fired. But I don't think there is an equally valid reason for replicating an ark which can't be launched, as do that would prove it would work in some respects at least. It suggests a fear it wouldn't, more than anything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Raggytash Date: 26 Jun 16 - 06:33 AM Pete, Do you ever ask questions of yourself regarding the bible. Do you not ask yourself was building an ark that could carry every animal actually possible. If it was possible how was it achieved, how much would it have cost and who had the money to have paid for it. How many men and women worked on it and why didn't they get a ride when a flood came. Where did the wood come from, thousands and thousands of tonnes of wood. Who collected all the animals from all the continents, some of which were unknown in biblical times (except from from the indigenous populations), and brought them to Noah so he could load them onto a huge vessel. For myself I would want to know the answers to these and many more questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 26 Jun 16 - 10:25 AM If it was possible how was it achieved By the grace of god, obviously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 26 Jun 16 - 09:33 PM Right- a God who can do anything, can do anything. And if people want to believe in that, it's their business. There's no excuse for comparing belief in creationism to denial of the Holocaust. Holocaust denial is hateful, belief in divine creation is not. To my mind, the snooty righteousness that justifies attacking all who think the wrong things, is hateful in itself. The fact that you profess the majority opinion, does not give you the right to attack others. What good does it do you jackals to attack Pete's beliefs? Boosts your meager self-esteem, does it? Your repeated attacks do nobody any good, and they make Mudcat an unpleasant place to be. Whether it's true or not, the ark is an interesting, imaginative story. If you can't discuss it in a pleasant manner, take your haughty self-righteousness and go elsewhere. I'm sick of your hateful, small-minded bullying. Thread Closed. -Joe Offer- |