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BS: Ark at the scoffers !
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Subject: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 16 - 11:57 AM Confession first....I am breaking my own customary habit o not being the first to bring up THaT TOpIc, but I just read something that seems strange . AIG open the ark encounter July 7th at williamstown, Kentucky with their full size conception of what it looked like. They included a video on their site of a well known atheist blogger asking for donations to fund travel to the opening event to hold a protest meeting there with yet to be confirmed ...cool speakers... The irony is , that it will add authenticity as the unbelievers mocked Noah too !. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: mkebenn Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM Pete, again I'm not the sharpest tool, but I'm lost here. Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM Yup - a faithful copy of an imaginary boat. Total and absolute nonsense. Same intellectual level as Holocaust denial & flat earthism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM It seems that an organisation called AIG has constructed a full-size ark adhering to the exact dimensions as recorded in Genesis in the bible. They have mounted an exhibition for families to come and explore it. Some objectors have asked for funding to attend so that they can mount some form of protest, as presumably they don't believe the thing was possible. I have just watched the video of AIG, and saw large numbers of men in hi-viz jackets and helmets, lots of heavy plant, cranes and machinery, vast piles of huge timbers and some stuffed animals such as a baby giraffe and a deer. If Noah, with only the help of his immediate family (all the others were wicked, we are told, and fated to drown in the flood) managed to construct such a vessel, and in addition persuade a selection of pairs of carnivores, herbivores, insects, birds, mammals etc to board the ship... then he was one hell of a site manager! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:28 PM death to the infidels, I know I know. Let my death be attributed to gods vengeance. Does that make you feel better Bunky. I hope they fing he ark. I would look for the dna of the unicorns who died at sea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:32 PM By the way (just musing) where did Noah get a pair of kangaroos, polar bears, anacondas, penguins, idris, platypus and Siamese cats? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:36 PM Amazon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: meself Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:38 PM So ... what IS a 'cubit' anyway? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:45 PM It's the distance from the tip of a man's middle finger to his nose, facing forwards with his arm stretched out sideways. A bit under a metre, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Backwoodsman Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:47 PM Correction - its the distance from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow - about 18 inches. The other one IS an ancient measurement, probably Egyptian, but I can't recall what it was called. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:49 PM cubit = the length of the forearm (or about 18 inches) Donuel hahaha! If I'd been on board (doubtful, as I'm extremely wicked) I'd have made myself responsible for the Siamese cats. Did they have Felix cat food in those days I wonder? Also, we're told the raven did not come back (presumably flew until it drowned) so how did the remaining bird reproduce? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:52 PM I had a lovely model of Noah's ark as a child in the late forties. The animals were all made of lead. I used to suck them (the elephants were the tastiest, I seem to remember) Do you suppose my parents were rather tired of me .....? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: DMcG Date: 22 Jun 16 - 12:58 PM Are we going to see some observational science as they stock it with the appropriate number of animals of each kind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: FreddyHeadey Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:32 PM Ark Encounter "...Additional future phases for the attraction include a pre-Flood walled city, the Tower of Babel, a first-century village, a journey in history from Abraham to the parting of the Red Sea, a walk-through aviary, an expanded petting zoo, and other attractions that uphold the truth of God's Word." https://arkencounter.com/about/ Watch the video https://youtu.be/Nsk5S36AKfI Yes, they are using power tools today but remember Noah was 600 years old before God sent the flood. go to > 4:10 here https://youtu.be/7nFxl6N1nLw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 01:45 PM The Tower of Babel story is interesting from a linguistics point of view. Apparently the builders couldn't understand each other and so built a disastrously unstable and strange edifice. Do you suppose we might have the same problems in UK today with so many men from various countries across Europe on building sites? How do the foremen communicate their instructions? I can't quite see how Noah being 600 years old would help with the lack of power tools. He must have been using a Zimmer frame by then. I meant indri NOT idris above. Idris is the drink I drink when I'se dry. Still wondering about the kangaroos etc ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: FreddyHeadey Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM I imagine Noah had more of an supervisory roll by then. He would have had a team or family helping? Just chopping down all that timber must have taken a while. Have we got any quantity surveyors on Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: keberoxu Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:14 PM Sadly, brings back memories of Bill Cosby when his career was still alive. How we loved his storytelling, then, and for years after. What a loss. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:28 PM My lovely father-in-law is called Noufou (Noah in Malinke) He believes every word of the story. I don't say anything, he's such a dear man. (Very old, but not 600) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:29 PM I have seen many inland Arks. They do make sense in California, Louisiana, Florida, all due to global warming and tectonic events. Mississippi tribes made mounds to escape flooding. Today they are deemed mystery mounds. Its good for the locals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jun 16 - 02:39 PM Well, whether it's true or not, the Noah saga is a pretty good story, and the source of some very good songs. Wikipedia says the dimensions of the ark were specified in Genesis as 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in width and 30 cubits in height (440x73x44 ft where the front is a golden ratio). The "Ark Encounter" ark is 510 feet (160 m) long and 81 feet (25 m) high, so there seems to be some disagreement about size. Anyhow, we can safely say that the Ark was about 500 feet long, made of gopher wood - whatever that is/was. The battleship U.S.S. Missouri is 887 feet long and 108 feet wide, so the Ark was/is considerably smaller. I saw the Missouri in Hawaii. Our cruise ship, the Pride of America, was considerable larger at 921 feet in length and a beam of 106 feet. AIG is Answers in Genesis, a corporation founded and headed by Ken Ham. Ham, of course, is the second son of Noah. Shem and Japeth died some 6,246 years ago, after surviving the Big Flood and spending many years being fruitful and multiplying. You can get tickets for the Ark and the neighboring Creation Museum at https://arkencounter.com/ And the Ark has its own YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwFrI64absE3Zo8025TfVeQ The State of Kentucky awarded a hefty tax break of $18 million to the museum: There are lots of good stories in Genesis. I personally see them as sacred myth, but I don't really get too concerned about whether to believe them or not. But they're good stories, and I wouldn't mind seeing the Ark and the museum. It could be a fun place. The planned Tower of Babel could be very interesting, and I wonder how they'll depict the Garden of Eden and Sodom and Gomorrah. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 03:49 PM Genesis sure got the light thing right That's good. http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/archives/231/manifesto |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Doug Chadwick Date: 22 Jun 16 - 04:20 PM It's the distance from the tip of a man's middle finger to his nose, facing forwards with his arm stretched out sideways. A bit under a metre, I guess. Isn't that the yard? It's how tailors were supposed to measure yards of cloth. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 16 - 05:38 PM Well, this has floated nicely already, with mostly good humoured comments. There's been a few queries/ponderings so see what I can contribute.... Cubits , apparently in antiquity there was the common and the royal cubit. AIG have opted for the latter which is larger. They have also opted to make it look more like a ship, whereas most creationists have gone for a long box model. In fact I wrote a song called great big box, which usually goes down well ( er...reverse pun..) at singaround. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 22 Jun 16 - 06:04 PM Good joke about ham joe ! The ark took a long time to construct, and Noah was "a preacher of righteousness "during this time. He may have hired labour . He did,nt get the animals on board, God sent them. Sienese cats were not on board , they arrived by probably artificial selection a long time after. Probably not polars either , but representatives of the bear kind from which speciation to the various species. Insects were not in the two by twos as they are not creatures that breathe through their nostrils , as scripture indicates. But were they included they would take little room. Goodnight from here ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 16 - 07:17 PM Arkville was the neighbouring town to Toytown. Larry the Lamb wasn't too keen on it - but it was said to have a Town Dragon. You can hear about it on Spotify. Maybe this Ark could become a kind of floating Disneyland... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:07 PM An ark has no power plant or navigation aids. Ergo The ideal ark would have a hull shaped like a wide parabola and a bow on each end that slopes in toward the ship and not away from the ship which 100 % of cruise ships today unfortunately have. This self correcting configuration would behave in changing currents nicely. But the roll & spin effect on the passengers would be brutal. Buuuiiicckk EUUrooope |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 22 Jun 16 - 09:33 PM Maybe this Ark could become a kind of floating Disneyland... Its already fantasyland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jun 16 - 10:33 PM But will if float? Or do they have to wait for another Flood before they find out? Maybe tthey've got plans to organise one. Though of course that would be clear against what's guaranteed in the Genesis account... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:34 AM I'm not entirely sure when Noah built his ark but it couldn't have been even one million years ago. And 'speciation' would have occurred over several million years. So kangaroos, duck-billed platypus, pangolins etc already existed (and presumably being drowned by God) while the ark was bobbing around on the flood. Either that, or Noah did live during the Stone Age, so were woolly mammoths and sabre-tooth tigers on board? You can't have it both ways. I'd pay to watch a re-enactment of Sodom and Gomorrah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:45 AM If God sent the animals, I expect the local population were astonished to watch the endless procession of thousands of species 'two by two' as the song goes. Even those that breathe through their nostrils would have numbered...well, lots. They must have been even more astonished at their first glimpse of kangaroos and polar bears. Knowing Siamese cats, I bet you anything you like they got on board. The little sods get bloody everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:51 AM Like London buses, one's post won't arrive, then two come along at once! (Sorry about this, kept pressing but nothing happened.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM The 2007 film Evan Almighty told the story of a congressman (Steve Carell) who is selected by the Almighty to build an ark. Lots of entertaining special effects, and a pretty good story - and a fairly seaworthy ark. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 23 Jun 16 - 08:53 AM Pete, And the scoffers have it! Apart from the fact that it's taken dozens (maybe hundreds?) of people with all the modern high-tech tools, giant cranes etc years to construct, whereas Noah is supposed to have done it with 8 people in a much shorter time, it would never in a million years float. While it may do very well as a large timber-frame dwelling on land, the minute you tried to put it into the water it'd fall to bits. The apology for a keel is far too lightweight and the boat would "hog" in the middle and break its back as soon as you tried to float it. I can't even see that it *has* a keelson. In addition the framing is too light to stand up to the stress and movement it would undergo at sea....even if by some "miracle" the hogging didn't break its back, the frames would twist at the knees and the vessel would break up. And from what I can see there's no camber or crown to the decking, so any water that came inboard would drain badly if at all. Now I wonder why Mr Ham didn't build the thing to actually float? Hmmmm! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 23 Jun 16 - 09:27 AM Ah, Rob, them pesky facts again, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:10 AM That's right Mcgraph, we have Gods promise there will never be another global flood. Rob also commented on the Kentucky ark , and you are right , it won't float , it was built as an exhibit attraction and visual reminder of the original. It is a mistake , IF you were inferring that this was beyond the skill , abilities and equipment of ancient man. There were many things constructed that we have no idea for sure how they did it and that includes giant seagoing vessels. More recently a floating full size ark, btw, was constructed in holland. Oh, and can you show me where it says only 8 people were involved in building Noah's ark ? Senoufou , I,m not qualified to comment on speciation in much detail, except to say that it is known to happen faster than you suggest. You might like to google something like ...speedy species...for some examples .and i see no problem with mamoths and sabre tooth tigers being on board , and juvenile dinosaur for that matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 10:19 AM Ah Pete, that's not fair. You'll allow nasty old smelly woolly mammoths on board but you won't let two dear little Siamese cats on. If God can do absolutely anything (and we are led to believe this is the case) why didn't He just go "Shezzam! Biff! Bam!" and all the wicked people fell down dead, leaving the Goody Noahs and all the animals to get on with it? So much simpler, no flood and no need for all that felling of perfectly nice gopher trees. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jun 16 - 11:43 AM Looks like a pile of shittim to me... oops, wrong ark. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 Jun 16 - 12:23 PM There's some interesting Forteana concerning the alleged the drogue stones of Noah's Ark that have been articles of veneration for millennia. http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noahsarkstones.htm A rather splendid Noah song: The Jubalaires - Noah and the Ark (1946) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 23 Jun 16 - 01:33 PM Pete: Rob also commented on the Kentucky ark , and you are right , it won't float , it was built as an exhibit attraction and visual reminder of the original. It is a mistake , IF you were inferring that this was beyond the skill , abilities and equipment of ancient man. Of course it was beyond the skills and abilities of ancient man to build a floating/ seaworthy version of such a vessel like this. It's beyond the abilities of modern man to build a seaworthy one from wood...it simply doesn't have the tensile strength and, as I said, would hog and twist itself into destruction if it was floated. Pete: More recently a floating full size ark, btw, was constructed in holland. Yes, and that one has steel framing and that is in turn built onto a seaworthy steel-hulled barge. It's just *clad* in wood over the steel....because it was impossible to build it all from wood and to have it float! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Donuel Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:12 PM Kentucky has an old time religion heritage. They have a Creationism museum that featured dinosaurs with saddles for humans based upon the "fossil record". Their best exhibit featured shows dinosaur footprints on a riverbank along with small humans. The church has the $ to build all this stuff since there are no better uses for it. Like a Disney land they are ongoing corporate concerns. Bill Mahre interviewed the guy in charge in the movie Religiosity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: frogprince Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:16 PM Maybe modern wood doesn't have the necessary tensile strength, but gopher wood was created miraculously strong just for the purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Stu Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:20 PM Yeah great attraction. You can take yourself, wife and the kids and be outright lied to, have the work of thousands of honest people grossly misrepresented and their conclusions distorted etc etc. Why be tolerant of liars? I guess some folk are ethically bankrupt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Jack Campin Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:21 PM That "ark stones" article suggests that Noah would have wanted to get the Ark to float stern-on to the waves. The ancient Hebrews were not among the ancient world's more noted mariners but they shouldn't have been THAT stupid. Maybe the dragons, hippogriffs, cockatrices and bonnacons were in the stern living quarters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 23 Jun 16 - 02:48 PM Do you suppose the ark had bow doors like the ro-ro ferries on the Channel? They would be lowered to let all the animals off when they docked on Mount Ararat. ("No shoving please! Disembark in an orderly fashion! Siamese cats first!") Dinosaurs with saddles eh? Bags I a Tyrranosaurus!! I'm not surprised that this venture is a 'corporate concern'. I bet there's loads of money to be had. I'd rather go to Dynamic Earth (marvellous scientific astronomy exposition plus huge dome-video in Edinburgh) At least the stuff they show you there is all scientifically verified and beautifully presented; educational and hugely entertaining. It blew us away last year. I wouldn't pay to go and see a daft ark that technically would never have floated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 23 Jun 16 - 07:13 PM Rob, yes the holland one was constructed on barges welded together , and the builder said that was to accommodate regulations not because it would not float otherwise. And as I previously mentioned , that was not the only giant vessel in antiquity. So it is clearly not impossible. Senoufou , I,m sure your Siamese cats would be allowed in, if there were any then lol! And as to why did,nt God do such and such , to have such knowledge would put us in the same league ! I think we are supposed to leave some room for faith in such matters. Stu, it is easy to toss out accusations like , liars, and ethically bankrupt, but it's another thing to prove it. What lies are being told at the ark encounter ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Rob Naylor Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:16 AM What other "giant vessels in antiquity" do we have proof of? The largest known to have been all wood construction was the Wyoming....but her length (LOD) excluding booms was only about 100m, as the jib boom and spanker booms (essentially just poles) extended outboard a long way. Even so, she hogged and twisted horribly, let in vast quantities of water through the sprung planks and needed continuous pumping just to stay afloat. Eventually sank with all hands. Just not seaworthy. The Roman barge probably used to transport an obelisk from Egypt to St Peter's was also only around 100m in length, maximum, and was basically used once for a short voyage and then sunk. The difference in length between these only marginally seaworthy vessels and the supposed ark is 37m, which is a very significant percentage increase, and wooden vessels 37 m longer than these simply would not float. The builder of the Dutch "ark" may well have *said* that he built it on a frame of welded steel barges because of "regulations"....but the regulations are there because naval architecture and design parameters would show that a fully wooden construction would not have the longitudinal or lateral strength to be seaworthy....ie, it wouldn't have floated if he'd built the whole thing of wood. the regulations are there for a purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jun 16 - 11:56 AM The largest sea going junks, built in the 15th century, way have been up to 120 metres long . Not that the 15th century is antiquity, but the construction would have been entirely in wood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Stu Date: 24 Jun 16 - 12:32 PM "What lies are being told at the ark encounter ?" Well, I haven't been myself of course, but from the website. Lie 1) It states: "number of historical events centered on Noah's Ark". There is zero historical evidence that Noad or his ark existed, and zero evidence for the 'events' in the story. The flood story was lifted from somewhere else anyway (can;t remember who). Lie 2) "THE GLOBAL FLOOD DID HAPPEN AS AN ACT OF GOD'S JUDGMENT." There is no scientific evidence of a global flood. Lie 3) "THE FLOOD OF NOAH'S DAY WAS A WORLDWIDE CATASTROPHIC EVENT THAT RESULTED IN LARGE-SCALE HUMAN AND ANIMAL DEATH, LEAVING BEHIND MANY OF THE PLANT AND ANIMAL FOSSILS AND LANDFORMS WE SEE TODAY." Lie 4) "historically authentic" They have no way of knowing. Further more, many of the illustrations of animals on the pages of the site show extinct megafauna, many of which died out way before humans were about; this is an sneaky misdirection. It's great people tell stories and keep their traditions, but when these are presented as fact then the people doing the presenting are liars. Someone's going to make a few bucks off this though, and I'm sure they will be very comfy with running the con. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Senoufou Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:52 PM The 'God' of the Old Testament sounds like a vengeful, murderous brute to me. The twelve plagues of Egypt, The Great Flood, Adam and Eve and many other events all involve the death and destruction of innocent children, old people and wildlife, even if one is in agreement with wiping out the sinners. (I'm not in favour of that myself) He seems to have created some pretty ghastly items too. Diseases and parasites we could well do without. IF the Ark story is true (it isn't) imagine the terror of the poor people not invited on board, frantically trying to keep their children above water and screaming for help. Nice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Ark at the scoffers ! From: Greg F. Date: 24 Jun 16 - 01:53 PM What other "giant vessels in antiquity" do we have proof of? None. Nor do we have proof of the ark. Now, Pete- what about your belief in witches? |