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BS: Labour party discussion

McGrath of Harlow 15 Aug 16 - 03:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM
Teribus 15 Aug 16 - 03:56 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 16 - 05:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 16 - 07:05 PM
DMcG 16 Aug 16 - 12:43 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 01:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 03:48 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 04:25 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 05:27 AM
Stu 16 Aug 16 - 06:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Aug 16 - 07:06 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 08:27 AM
Stu 16 Aug 16 - 08:56 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 10:14 AM
Stu 16 Aug 16 - 10:38 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 10:48 AM
DMcG 16 Aug 16 - 11:15 AM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM
Greg F. 16 Aug 16 - 12:06 PM
Stu 16 Aug 16 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 12:46 PM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 01:22 PM
Stu 16 Aug 16 - 01:27 PM
Greg F. 16 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM
Teribus 16 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 01:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Aug 16 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 16 - 03:01 PM
Stu 16 Aug 16 - 03:39 PM
DMcG 16 Aug 16 - 10:10 PM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 04:33 AM
Stu 17 Aug 16 - 06:00 AM
Raggytash 17 Aug 16 - 06:40 AM
Stu 17 Aug 16 - 07:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Aug 16 - 07:15 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 07:17 AM
Raggytash 17 Aug 16 - 08:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Aug 16 - 08:35 AM
Stu 17 Aug 16 - 08:50 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 16 - 08:59 AM
Teribus 17 Aug 16 - 09:24 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Aug 16 - 09:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Aug 16 - 09:38 AM
Greg F. 17 Aug 16 - 09:45 AM
Raggytash 17 Aug 16 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Aug 16 - 10:06 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 03:28 PM

So if a Quaker joins the Labour party with the hope of encouraging it to resist pressures to wage war, that's rightly to be denounced as entryism? How about a feminist committed to opposing sexism? Or is it just if you're a socialist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 03:32 PM

My point is, everyone has views on political issues which they bring with them, which they share with some people in the party, and not with others. Having views on political issues is why people join parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 03:56 PM

Back in the day Corbyn was a supporter of Militant Tendency when they attempted to infiltrate the Labour Party. Today Corbyn welcomes similar entryists in the form of Corbyn activists in Momentum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:55 PM

That's a pretty poor do from our resident self-appointed history expert if I may say so, Teribus. Not only are you completely neglecting the long evolution of left-wing factions within (yes, WITHIN) the Labour Party, you are also parroting out the usual right-wing sloganising nonsense about infiltration and entryism. Don't think that just because everyone is trying to keep the thread nice that you can perpetrate the usual Tory bullshit with impunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:56 PM

Corbyn was opposed to the purge of people associated with Militant. He was never himself a member of Militant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 07:05 PM

Cheers, Kevin. A littl accuracy never comes amiss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 12:43 AM

"Inventing unpleasant attributes"


Can I add "Corbynista" to that? I have met very few people who support Corbyn as such. They do, however, support the principles he espouses, and believe that he is exceptionally good at explaining them in a mature way, providing youare prepared to listen as maturely, rather than rely on 10 second sound bites. By adopting that term it suggests a level of unreasoning hero worship in a smallish but passionately committed group. That is a distortion of what I see, but it happens to be a distortion that both Tories and Blairites are happy to encourage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:46 AM

I was unaware that I had ever stated that Corbyn was a member of Militant Tendency, here's what I said just to clarify:

"Corbyn was a supporter of Militant Tendency when they attempted to infiltrate the Labour Party"

Looking up the term "entryist" it seems to date back to those times. And back then you had the same bullying, intimidation and corruption at CLP level that we have seen just recently. So we are seeing history repeating itself, doesn't matter a jot whether or not it is from without or within. If it is indeed the latter all that means is that the clear out last time wasn't thorough enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:48 AM

Isn't it about time people looked at the 'entryism' claim in factual detail?
'Trotskyist' Militant, now 'Socialist Appeal' can heve no more than a couple of thousand members -
The left part which has had the largest membership in Britain since the middle of the twentieth century was The Communist Party, with 32,000 members at its peak, the majority of the card-carrying only otherwise inactive.
The number of people who are going to be deprived of a vote, thank's to this latest legal technicality being used against Corbyn has been stated to be 100,000
The Trotskyist 'entryists', given their present numbers, don't have enough members to 'Enter' a queue at the local fish and chip shop.
New Labour is the product of a right wing coup which took place in the Labour Party in 1996, led by righitist, Tony Blair (potentially a war criminal who dishonestly committed Britain to an illegal war that is still going on) and Alastair Campbell. a soft-porn journalist who published for a 'Penthouse' magazine spin-off, who was unelected and was co-opted as a publicity guru; they were supported by the dreadful Gordon Brown and the equally dreadful Peter Mandelson.
The theoretical base of New Labour was, Anthony Crosslnd's revisionist socalism theory, which abandoned all the 'social' aspects of real socialism and split the Labour Party off from its original creators, The Trades Union Movement.   
After appalling performances in Government, genuine socialist members of the Labour Party began to leave in their thousands and those voters who had regarded the party as an alternative to Conservatism rather than the 'Soft Thatcherist' party it had become, stopped voting for them - or anybody.
The present right wing aspirants to leadership are Blair's detrius worms.
The advent of Corbyn inspired thouands to reejoin Labour in the hope of a return to a real alternative - they are 're-entryists' - not a media created Trotskyist plot.
As Mac suggested, Mudcat members supporting decent left policies would be describes as 'entryists' if we caught their notice.
The idea that Brexit hasn't brought about a disaster is not worthy of comment, and giving the opportunistic Remain mob as proof that it has is risible - go look at the actual direction the economy has taken in the short time since the decision to leave was confirmed - see what the economists are saying - at present, disastrous, in the long term, uncertain - and we all know, business abhors uncertainty just as nature abhors a vacuum
HORSE'S MOUTH
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 04:25 AM

As previously stated Labour Party Members, associate members, etc, will not and cannot get Labour elected into office - for that you need "Labour Voters" and as long as Corbyn is leader of the Labour Party that will never happen. Labour has completely lost it's base in Scotland to the SNP and the Conservative Party are now the largest "opposition" Party. Labour have lost touch with their "traditional" Labour voters, it was they who swung the vote in the EU Referendum and secured the Leave result

While some may pour scorn on Tony Blair as far as winning elections goes, he, without doubt has been the best performing Labour leader EVER. And I dare say that many who pour scorn on him now actually voted to get his Labour Governments elected three times.

The HORSE'S MOUTH link is typical of the person who supplied it - A BNP Paribas release {Hardly impartial} from 1st July 2016 {Weeks out of date}.

Try these they are a bit more up to date:

How Many Predictions Came True


How did the experts get it so wrong


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 05:27 AM

Daliy mail and telegraph opinions - try the Financial Times
Announced this morning -
Corbyn has won support of 85% of the constituancy parties
His lead has doubled since his election
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 06:41 AM

Terbius is concentrating on economics, and there's more to the economy than the predictions of city institutions. Brexit has already proved a real issue in science as scientists in the UK find themselves left off grant applications for EU funding and therefor out of very important collaborations. Science is truly international, and the integration of UK science with our EU partners had become seamless and very productive, driving the sort of innovation the UK will need to stay competitive in the global marketplace.

My own university is already trying to mitigate the effects of Brexit on it's research groups, but many long-term projects are already off the table as including UK scientists will mean their grant applications could well fail because of long-term uncertainty regarding how collaboration will work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:06 AM

Maybe it as well to point out that "BNP" in this context doesn't mean British National Party but Bank Nationale de Paris.
..............

The collapse of Labour in Scotland is nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of failure by Corbyn. It reflects the failure of a rightwing party at "national" level (meaning Westminster, which isn't "national" in Scotland) and a rigid bureaucratic organisation at local level, together with a rise in national awareness. It's not going to be reversed.

To form a government Labour is going to have to ally with the SNP, and use the opportunity to reform the voting system to counter the imbalance that would be likely to mean a permanent Tory majority based on a minority vote if/when Scotland opts for independence.
........
Opinion polls do indeed indicate scepticism about Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister - reflecting the storm of hostile comments in the whole range of media. But they do not indicate the same disagreements with the policies he stands for, from bringing railways back into public transport to scrapping Trident. The task of the Labour Party is going to be to find ways of making it possible for people to have a chance to vote for candidates who support these policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:44 AM

So Europe will turn its back on projects like the Hyshot III scramjet engine Stu?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:27 AM

"Maybe it as well to point out that "BNP" in this context doesn't mean British National Party but Bank Nationale de Paris."
Thanks Mac - meant to do that.
As Stu said, the consequences go far beyond city finance, and the social consequences are so far incalcuable, especially in terms of racial relations.
The old "uncontrolled emigration" myth is a good-old standby.
All immigration is controlled other than illehgal immigration, which will not be affected one way or the other anyway - unles Ms Mayfly jups in her van again and travels the streets telling those who shouldn't be in Britain to go home - a measure of the mentality of these people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:56 AM

"So Europe will turn its back on projects like the Hyshot III scramjet engine Stu?"

There is more than one project involved here, you do realise that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:14 AM

"Maybe it as well to point out that "BNP" in this context doesn't mean British National Party but Bank Nationale de Paris."

I suppose that there might be some people who are ignorant enough to require that clarification Kevin but I would have thought that the "Paribas" tacked onto the BNP might have just given the game away. Perhaps you fear the almost Pavlovian effect of the initials BNP cause left-wing attack dogs to cease reading and commence mouth frothing. Best not let them in on the secret that BNP Paribas is a Multinational Bank Kevin or else more mouth frothing would result.

Also find it rather strange that one poster can post biased and out of date predictions without comment from you Stu, whereas I have provided two links that are not only up to date but simple statements of what was predicted matched against what has actually happened. Most of the "doom'n'gloom" predictions of the "Remain" Campaign have been proved false.

Of course I realise that there is more than one project involved Stu, but could you tell me why you didn't see fit to answer the question? Are the European participants going to walk away from it because the UK has voted to leave the EU? - Don't worry Stu, no need for you to seem to break ranks it is a rhetorical question - you know damn well that they will not - it will go ahead already a done deal.

EU funding the only source of funding for British scientists Stu? Did the UK formerly contribute to those EU funds (The UK is when all said and done the EU's second largest contributor) and are we still contributing towards them? Present indications are that Article 50 will not be triggered until 2019 which puts our earliest departure from the EU some time in 2022. If we are putting money into that pot then we have a say in what happens to it.

"Science is truly international, and the integration of UK science with our EU partners had become seamless and very productive, driving the sort of innovation the UK will need to stay competitive in the global marketplace."

Yes Stu science is truly international - unfortunately the EU is not it is extremely Eurocentric and protectionist.

The UK has always been extremely good at innovation getting out of the EU makes it easier to collaborate with the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:38 AM

"Yes Stu science is truly international - unfortunately the EU is not it is extremely Eurocentric and protectionist."

You're not getting this are you? The EU facilitated science without borders, which is how science should be practiced, and how we're lucky enough in the UK to have been practicing. Our research institutions are integrated via individual scientists, funding bodies and publication at a fundamental level, and it works (or worked) brilliantly.

Politics aside, Brexit has endangered that free movement of people and information and already UK science (and science as a whole as a consequence) is experiencing the effect of that right now. As we speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:48 AM

"Brexit has endangered that free movement of people and information"

Hell as like, alarmist claptrap, we'll see as and when it happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:15 AM

Stu said "my own university..." so is saying "as and when it happens" is already happening in his case. Are you personally involved in science projects as well, Teribus?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 11:32 AM

We'll see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 12:06 PM

Are you personally involved in science projects as well, Teribus?

"We'll See" = translation: "No. I was just blowing smoke up your a**."


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 12:45 PM

"Hell as like, alarmist claptrap, we'll see as and when it happens."

Hold on a mo. One of the voting points of Brexit was to restrict the free movement of people from the EU, that was a major part of the campaign. This doesn't discriminate between people based on their professions and applies to all folk crossing our borders. In the case of scientists this means they don't come to our institutions to work, and we don't go to theirs. This restricts access to overseas research groups and the wider network that make up the research community.

Scientists don't want these restrictions as it gets in the way of the science, plain and simple. Without EU grants the science suffers (UK Science was a net beneficiary of EU funding), plain and simple. ANYTHING that restricts this flow is a barrier to research and innovation, plain and simple.

It is happening now, as we discuss the matter here, we have 1,000 staff and 2,000 students from the EU, and these people move freely and without restriction. For future staff, students and research partners there will be issues with visas and funding and therefore collaboration, the very essence of effective research. This uncertainty has already meant a change in the process of long-term funding applications and collaborations for UK scientists as others in the EU cannot include them for fear of rejection due to the uncertainty about how the government will deal with this.

Paint me a liar if you wish Terbius but at least be man enough to come out and say so; personal incredulity doesn't count as informed opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 12:46 PM

Nice to know I'm not the only one he tries to talk down to - must be a cultural implant
Dates odf links are unimportant unless something has radically changed - nothing has.
The dominoes are still falling (interest rates last week) - all that can be hoped for is they stop falling.
"The EU facilitated science without borders,"
Juts as free movement across borders came with membership - all gone, no more tomorrow.
There is no reason why a privilege that went with membership should be extended to non-member competitors.
One of the unknowns being debated here is whether we will have to pass through re-established checkpoints to travel from the South to the Six Counties.
This all seems to be a classic case of having your cake and eating it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:22 PM

"One of the voting points of Brexit was to restrict the free movement of people from the EU, that was a major part of the campaign. This doesn't discriminate between people based on their professions and applies to all folk crossing our borders."

Tell me Stu, if you wished to go to Canada, the USA or Australia - are you free to do so? Yes you are, all of these countries will let you enter without any great difficulty on the basis that you and your skillset will bring something to the party. Australia has operated on this basis for decades. They all restrict entry to their countries and yet all have seemed to have survived, even their Universities.

As it stands at the moment it is the EU that dictates who enters our country, by leaving the EU that changes and it is then up to the British Government to decide who enters and who does not - so your "This doesn't discriminate between people" is about as wrong as you could get it.

Wow which University in the UK has 1000 staff all from the EU? Any of them upped-sticks and left since the 24th June?

By the way the answer to the question about being involved in any science projects? No thankfully I am retired, how many are you involved in DMcG? Am I allowed to hold an opinion on a load of alarmist claptrap spouted by people who deliberately lied and attempted to completely mislead the British people during the run up to the EU Referendum? Damn right I am.

What Stu is describing does not equate to the end of the world - not by a long shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:27 PM

Going back to the Labour party, one of the major let downs during the campaign was their lack of cohesive arguments against. The fight against the wilful ignorance of the right appears to have been abandoned utterly, with Labour also resorting to the sort of worthless waffle that the likes of Farage and Johnson get away with constantly. This is due in part to the continuing dumbing down of society (aided and abetted by the media) that sees the promotion of the "we've had enough of experts" idiocy that is propagated buy creationists, climate deniers and a whole host of other movements that reject empirical evidence, but this should be thundered against as it seeps into all parts of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:31 PM

Bang on, Stu - and here in the U.S. as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:33 PM

"Dates odf links are unimportant unless something has radically changed - nothing has."

Dates of links are very important if you are trying to argue today that the predictions made in them have become reality. Evidence of the direst predictions show that none of them have.

"Juts as free movement across borders came with membership - all gone, no more tomorrow."

Oh doom and woe, the world probably will end before the end of the month - "no more tomorrow" INDEED - alarmist claptrap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 01:53 PM

"Dates of links are very important if you are trying to argue today that the predictions made in them have become realit"
As I said - not unless things have changed - if anything, the predictions have proved correct so far
"alarmist claptrap."
Again - only if you can think of a reason why Britain should have its cake and eat it
Brexit was sold on the basis of our being allowed to close our borders to foreigners
Foreigners are sure to coninue to allow us free access across their borders
- sure they are!!!
There is no reason whatever why European countries should open its borders to outsiders - Britain is no longer part of the setup
Brexit was nodded through with total disregard of what economists were warning - any sacrifice was worth getting rid of Johnny Foreigner.
Our new foreign secretary has all the diplomatic skills to pull that one off!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:48 PM

The fact that Brexit hasn't kicked in yet (apart from informal stuff like more racist incidents) is no reason for downplaying the importance of the effects that are looming ahead a couple of years down the road.

The best hope is that we end up with a Norway type settlement, with minimal impact on free trade, and free movement, and the same level of payments into the EU, and so forth, but without a British wrecking squad in the places where things get worked out. Best of both worlds.   Of course the Brexit lot won't like that, but by that time you'd probably find it hard to track down too many people who'd admit to having voted for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:01 PM

" but by that time you'd probably find it hard to track down too many people who'd admit to having voted for it."
"Bregrets, I have a few"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:39 PM

"Wow which University in the UK has 1000 staff all from the EU?"

You have no idea what you're talking about - I haven't made this figure up. This is one reason why science has flourished because of EU membership; things are far, far easier when people can go where they want to live and work. I can understand that you have zero experience as a researcher but your hysterical dismissing of this information this as "claptrap" is not an argument, it's an insult and a pretty poor one at that.


"Tell me Stu, if you wished to go to Canada, the USA or Australia - are you free to do so?"

What's that got to do with anything? It simply doesn't work the same, if it did then why vote against the free movement of people for the EU? The freedom of movement the EU gives us facilitates collaboration in science, in fact so much so it's not an issue when we work with our European partners.


"What Stu is describing does not equate to the end of the world"

You said it was the end of the world, not me. I said it was very possibly the end of seamless and effective collaboration between scientists working across the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:10 PM


By the way the answer to the question about being involved in any science projects? No thankfully I am retired, how many are you involved in DMcG?


Two at the moment, but that is irrelevant. Stu asserted his university was affected, you ignored that and asserted the impact was none or negligible. I asked on what first hand evidence you based that. As you see, whether I have or haven't any first hand evidence myself is of no relevance to the question.

And being retired is a bit of a cop-out as well. I am not, my father in law retired at 65 but was still active, writing, involved with universities and consulting on an informal basis for the next 20+ years. So it is perfectly possible to be retired and have first hand knowledge. Still, it raises the question of whether you were personally involved in such scientic research before you retired since you seem quite certain how it all works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 04:33 AM

All scientific research and collaboration will come to, or has already, come to an end because the electorate of the United Kingdom exercised their democratic right and voted to leave the EU - oh dear.

My prediction is that it will be nowhere near as bad as Stu and obviously you DMcG predict.

Good luck with your scientific projects DMcG, as yours seem to be running so well perhaps you could throw one of them Stu's way to see him through these terrible times. Rest assured I will thoroughly enjoy my "cop-out retirement" after working for 50 years, I will now devote what remains of my time on this planet to doing as I please whenever I want to do it, not really giving a toss whether it meets with your approval or not.

MGOH - The one thing you forgot to mention about the deal Norway has with the EU - it complies with EU law where it suits (Only 17% compliance to EU rules) and they can ignore what does not suit them. When it comes to balance of trade Norway sells more to the EU than it buys from them. The deal that will be brokered between the EU and the UK does not have to follow any precedent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 06:00 AM

"All scientific research and collaboration will come to, or has already, come to an end because the electorate of the United Kingdom exercised their democratic right and voted to leave the EU - oh dear."

Another straw man. Really T, get a grip son. Read the posts, try to comprehend the problem and perhaps even have enough humility to accept someone knows more about a subject than you. Of course your validation is not needed to make something true, so in this respect your opinion is irrelevant, but it'd be good to have an intelligent conversation.

I've no dog in this race as I've given up on party politics, but as a scientist I care very much about how the work of my colleagues is affected by events like the Brexit vote. The UK will be at a disadvantage if the free movement of people is stopped, and this means as a society we loose out too. We face intense competition from India and China in applying our research commercially and this is going to increase as the years pass; our seamless links with Europe via the EU meant we acted as one community and shared resources without boundaries.

We can't let the narrow-minded, regressive nationalist agenda dictate the way science works as the thinking of any nationalist is blinkered by notions of 'nationhood' and whatever crap comes with it. This is the best thing about science as it recognises no borders, religions or nationality; if everyone wants to work together they should be able to.

It's the only way forward for us as a species to gather empirical data and collectively use that data for the common good. Brexit threatens that, and that should be thundered against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 06:40 AM

"Since the thread about 'Whither the Labour Party" has drifted far from home and turned into a rather unpleasant series of skirmishes about matters of peripheral relevance, I thought I'd start up one where we could talk about the current hurly burly. Preferably without getting into slanging matches. But that might be too much to ask. Coherent and even-tempered slanging matches, at least?"

Looks like the time for a reminder of the above as the usual trend seems to have started.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:13 AM

Sorry Raggy. I'll shut up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:15 AM

Drifting that way, Raggytash, but still mostly on the civil sde. But in some case they read like they are trying to tempt responses that cross the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:17 AM

No Stu - you need to get a grip.

You are running about like a headless chicken wailing about things that have not yet happened and more like as not will not happen.

Key point from your last post upon which your entire "Doom'n'Gloom" scenario is based:

"The UK will be at a disadvantage IF the free movement of people is stopped"

That is one very big IF and as such it has not yet happened - time that you acknowledged that.

In the time that we have been IN the EU, as far as trade deals go a medium sized country {Switzerland} and a tiny city state {Singapore} have out performed the EU by a factor of five in what they have accomplished. There are no EU trade agreements with either the Chinese or the Indians.

What "narrow-minded, regressive nationalist agenda"? The decision to leave the EU and the main attraction of leaving the EU is that it frees us up to engage with and trade with the world, which oddly enough for the last three years has been our major trading partner. Areas outside the EU are growth areas the EU's economy is stagnant, common sense should tell you which areas we should be trading with.

Scientific ties and co-operation are undoubtedly valuable and as such they will be recognised as such - people will not jettison them lightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:00 AM

Stu, the reminder was not particularly aimed at you. I'll go no further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:35 AM

The fact things like "free movement" haven't been stopped is essentially relevant. The aim of those who voted for Brexit was that it should be stopped, and that is what the government is working to achieve.

I'd love it if that doesn't happen, but the remaining Brexiters will be spitting blood if that were to be the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:50 AM

Yeah, but I rose to the bait. Just passionate about science so feel I have to defend robustly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 08:59 AM

"Yeah, but I rose to the bait."
Easily enough done Stu - we'v all been there.
People like this are really not worth the effort - you can usually spot it from day one with their arrogant contempt for you and everything you have to say.
"No Stu - you need to get a grip. You are running about like a headless chicken wailing about things that have not yet happened"
There oyouhave it - no need to heed the experts you use your own ecperience or common sense - just ask the oracle and all will be revealed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:24 AM

Yes indeed "There you have it":

1: - Tell me, what EU rules have been rescinded since 24th June 2016? - Please feel free to correct me - but the answer to the question is not a single one.

2: - Tell me if any negotiations or talks at all have taken place - Again please correct me if I am wrong but no talks have taken place Jean-Claude Juncker has expressly forbidden them - And yet there are people posting on this forum telling us what the results of these talks will mean to the UK - they haven't even taken place yet so how utterly ridiculous can you get.

Meanwhile today's Corbyn Story:

"Jeremy Corbyn was this morning confronted by two female Labour members who said they no longer feel "safe" in the party.

A young Labour member told the Labour leader she would feel more comfortable going to Conservative party conference as a Labour supporter, than going to Labour conference as an Owen Smith supporter.

Another woman revealed her Jewish friends resigned the day he became leader, because they didn't believe it was "safe" for them stay.

It came during a heated debate between the Labour leader and his leadership rival Mr Smith, who launched a fresh attack on Mr Corbyn for failing to crack down on anti-Semitic and misogynistic abuse within the Labour Party."


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:24 AM

Teribus's comments about things not being so bad are a bit like the man who jumped from a skyscraper who was heard to say "all right so far" as he passed the thirteenth floor...


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:38 AM

Google,

UK unemployment claimant count falls after Brexit vote
The Guardian-4 hours ago
Fears that a Brexit vote would trigger widespread job losses failed to materialise last month, with the number of people claiming jobseeker's ...
Unemployment figures: Unexpected fall in joblessness post Brexit vote
The Independent-4 hours ago


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:45 AM

Looks like T and The Professor jumped off that skyscraper holding hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 09:49 AM

The unemployment figures were from April to June BEFORE the Brexit vote.

Sheesh


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:00 AM

You have been responses to the salient points - over and over again - the rest is smoke and mirrors.
Your (deliberately) unlinked article came from that champion of democracy, The Daily Telegraph.
It is probably the vagues, uncorroberated piece of journalism I have ever come across, but both the claims - about women and Jews, are obviously linked to the Israeli campaign to offset criticism of its behaviour in Gaza, and the Labour Leadership contest.
None of the statements are detailed, referenced or the contributors named - they come from Enily Ashton, the editor of 'Buzzfeed/Muckrack' an unsavoury gossip outlet with a reputation for plagiarism and the political editing-out of contributions that criticise their advertisers - it is described as anunreliable source of information.
If you have any evidence of actual threats against women's safety in the Labour Party - feel free to link us to an undiluted version of it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:06 AM

Rag,
The unemployment figures were from April to June BEFORE the Brexit vote.
Sheesh


No they were not Rag.
Sheesh.

Guardian 5 hours ago,
Fears that a Brexit vote would trigger widespread job losses failed to materialise last month, with the number of people claiming jobseeker's allowance unexpectedly falling."

The claimant count fell by 8,600 to 763,600 in July, compared with expectations of a rise of 9,500, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS). It was the first monthly fall since February 2016.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/17/uk-unemployment-claimant-count-falls-after-brexit


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