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BS: Labour party discussion

Steve Shaw 03 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 16 - 06:43 PM
akenaton 03 Oct 16 - 05:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 16 - 05:04 PM
Teribus 03 Oct 16 - 03:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 16 - 03:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM
Teribus 03 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 03 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM
Teribus 03 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 16 - 11:21 AM
bobad 03 Oct 16 - 10:41 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 16 - 09:53 AM
Greg F. 03 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM
Greg F. 03 Oct 16 - 08:52 AM
bobad 03 Oct 16 - 08:46 AM
Teribus 03 Oct 16 - 07:02 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Oct 16 - 06:32 AM
Teribus 03 Oct 16 - 01:03 AM
Greg F. 02 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM
bobad 02 Oct 16 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 16 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 02:38 PM
Teribus 02 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM
Donuel 02 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Oct 16 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 10:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 10:19 AM
Donuel 02 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM
bobad 02 Oct 16 - 08:58 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 16 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 16 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 03:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 08:40 PM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 08:09 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM
DMcG 01 Oct 16 - 06:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM

"Only thing about that GSS Corbyn in all probability voted "Leave"

Prove it. You have absolutely no call for saying that. Bloody prove it, charlatan.

So where are we today? Tories breaking every promise on the economy they ever made. Six years on, they can't fix the deficit but still have to screw the poor. They have to borrow billions, the Tory bęte noir. "Paying off the deficit" won't happen by 2020 or anything like, as if we didn't already know it five years ago. Osborne, flavour of the month last summer, is yesterday's man. The pound is plummeting day by day. We have a million on zero-hours contracts. Six million on less than the living wage. Job security demolished. Millions on "self-employed," basically so that employers don't have to pay their stamps. Millions on bogus "apprenticeships" which means that, unless you're bloody lucky, you'll be spending your days sweeping the floor and making the tea, on precisely the same pay as you get on jobseekers, only they won't let you have that, will they. Foreign companies threatening to leave. Hard talk from the EU. Up shit creek without a bloody paddle. But never mind. Teribus and his little Englanders will sort us out. It's just that they haven't told us how, yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:43 PM

I think he was telling the truth. Why not? So far as the EU is concerned I don't know anyone who voted to Remain who doesn't see it that way - plenty wrong with the EU, but the right thing was to stay.

If David Mameron had had a minimal grasp of tactics Brexit would have been defeated. For example votes for 16 and 17 years would have done, and there'd very likely have been a majority for that in the Commons. He could have accepted calls by the Scots, the Welsh and Northern Ireland for any result to be dependent on all the nations agreeing, on the basis of holding the UK together. He could have pushed for a minimum winning margin for any change.

The Brexit victory was down to David Cameron, not Jeremy Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:35 PM

Self interest surely. As Mr T says Mr Corbyn has always been anti EU and against Labour Party policy, but to say so in the circumstances which prevailed would have meant instant crucifixion(in the political sense of the word).

I think the issue was important enough for Mr Corbyn to make a stand over it.....he may yet regret not doing so as Old Labour votes haemorrhage to UKIP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:04 PM

No, he was not "a lover of the EU", in common, I am sure, with most Remain voters. The EU as it stands is flawed - but in the choice between Remain and Leave, it was the better choice.

If the Remain vote had just been "lovers of the EU" the gap would have been far far wider.

Corbyn set out to get people who questioned the wisdom of staying in the EU to vote to do so. And with 63% of Labour voters going for Remain, he helped make it a narrow victory for Brexit. If Cameron had managed to persuade only a bit more than 42% the Brexiters would have been beaten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:31 PM

So Kevin, on the 21st June this year Corbyn did not lash out at EU on tax, migrants and sovereignty on a Sky News Q&A?

No lover of the EU direct quote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:24 PM

claim that a criticism of Israel should be defined as antisemitism?

But no-one does claim that!
It would be ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

It's actually pretty clear that Jeremy Corbyn voted to stay, as he called for people to do. Like Corbyn, most Remain voters believed that the EU is far from perfect, but that for all that it was a better choice than Brexit.

The fact that Corbyn was actively saying this probably influenced many wavering Labour voters to opt for Remain. If he'd come out as an uncritical fan of the EU it would very likely have pushed many the other way. Aside from anything, he would have been seen as another lying unprincipled politician. Critical support of the EU made sense. If the choice had been between Brexit and EU adoration, the margin for Brexit would have been far wider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM

Only thing about that GSS Corbyn in all probability voted "Leave". Just how much of a hypocrite do you want him to be - he has always been anti-EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:38 PM

When Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.

But what about when other Jews say the same thing, and criticise claim that a criticism of Israel should be defined as antisemitism?

It's as if criticism of Poland or Ireland was defined as necessarily being motivated by anti-catholicism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

it is my opinion, that if Corbyn, took a mandate for a remain in europe or remain in EEA, He could win the next uk general election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

Kevin,
My point there,Keith, wasn't whether Jackie Walker knew that Holocaust Day is, officially at least, about all genocides.

My point was that she should not have asserted publicly that it is not, based only on her own prejudice which was proved false.

To make that false statement was a slander against Jews and her wilful ignorance does not excuse it.

It would be equally wrong to denigrate Nakba Day for not commemorating other comparable events without checking first.
(I have checked, and it does not.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

"Leave this one alone is my advice until you can say something constructive and of substance." - Steve Shaw

Was that last bit directed at Smeg F.?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 11:21 AM

As ever, you don't know what you're talking about. There's a nice thread that Keith started where you can go and say your stupid things to your heart's content. Leave this one alone is my advice until you can say something constructive and of substance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 10:41 AM

.....they are predicated on a false definition of antisemitism

When Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:53 AM

Bobad's link and Rich's book don't mean a thing as they are predicated on a false definition of antisemitism. Until the pro-Israel lobbies can get that right, which they show no intention of doing, pursuing this in this thread is pointless,


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

are you ever going to actually contribute anything to a thread

OK, how about THIS, T-Bird? Just more "self-hating Jews", I suppose?

-------------

Israel Quietly Legalizes Pirate Outposts

By Isabel Kirshner, Aug 30, 2016

The retroactive legalization is seen by anti-settlement groups as a methodical effort by the government to change the map by entrenching the outposts that spread across the West Bank.

Today, more than 40 Orthodox Jewish families live in Mitzpe Danny, one of a string of outposts on a strategic ridge with breathtaking views southwest to Jerusalem's Mount of Olives and east all the way to Jordan. They are part of an expansive network of about 100 outposts established mostly over the past two decades without government authorization.

Ziv Stahl, the research director at Yesh Din, one of the left-wing advocacy groups, said "they are authorizing them in disguise."
Pointing to other Israeli measures, including the demolitions of unauthorized Palestinian structures in the West Bank, she added, "We see it as a very gradual move toward annexation."

A government-commissioned 2005 survey by Talia Sasson, a former state prosecutor, counted at least 105 outposts that were established in "blatant violation of the law" and called for "drastic steps," including the immediate removal of those on private lands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-outposts-mitzpe-danny.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:52 AM

Now then: let's discuss Bubo's "Jewish Problem".


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:46 AM

There are "quite a lot of different Lefts," says Rich, "and there are still a lot of people on the Left who want to combat anti-Semitism. I don't think we should concede the idea that the 'Stop the War' Left and the Momentum [Jeremy Corbyn's inner circle activists] Left is the only true Left, and that anyone else is a right-winger. That's the insult they use. There is an assumption of bad faith and dishonesty on all sides."

Rich's bottom line, however, is that extreme anti-Israel advocacy and rhetoric "will always impact on British Jews in a way that is anti-Semitic." It is definitely the case, he writes, "that some on the Left do not recognize anti-Semitism even when it comes from their own mouths."

And he adds that Labour is going to have to decide how — and if — to win back disaffected Jews, whose relationship with the party has "collapsed" in the past 12 months.

"I'm fed up with hearing Jeremy Corbyn saying he condemns all forms of anti-Semitism and then not seeing any action," Rich says. "Commissioning a fairly superficial report [the Chakrabarti report] and then not really implementing any of its findings, doesn't count.

"A charitable interpretation is that they [Corbyn's inner circle] just don't get it," he says. "A cynical interpretation is that they get it, and they find it quite useful. I don't feel in a position to say which of those interpretations is correct."


The Left's Jewish problem


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:02 AM

Oh dear yet another unsubstantiated accusation - in what way "sour" pray tell.

You could of course start by pointing out anything of worth that ol' Smeg has contributed, but I think that you'd be hard pressed, still should keep you gainfully employed for a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:32 AM

We could say the same about you. You are getting nastier and more pointlessly aggressive by the day. Whatever "valid" contributions you think you're making, they're going down the plug with some pretty foul bath water. And no, I will not trade insults with you in this thread that you are doing so much to sour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:03 AM

As you appear to be in name calling mood Smeg - the truth can often be "boring" and "predictable".

One question for you though, are you ever going to actually contribute anything to a thread on this forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM

Yup. Same old BooSpew. Predictable & boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:13 PM

any Israeli Government that allowed any such "return" knows that it would be the equivalent of committing "national suicide".

And that's precisely what it's proponents would like to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:12 PM

My point there,Keith, wasn't whether Jackie Walker knew that Holocaust Day is, officially at least, about all genocides. It's that, so far as most people are concerned it actually isn't. And insofar as that is the case, it needs to be challenged. If Jackie Walker was challenging that failure to get the message across, that would be perfectly reasonable.

As for the fact that her expressing confusion about how antisemitism should be defined, the extended detour this thread has made indicates very clearly that there is indeed confusion about this, and about how far the term can appropriately used in respect of attitudes towards the Israeli government and the State of Israel, rather than towards Jews and Judaism.

It strikes me that when Jews who challenge such an extension of the term are attacked as "self-hating Jews", that is itself at very least extremely close to being an example of anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 02:38 PM

. But I wonder how many people actually realise that fact, or that there were other victime of the Nazi Holocaust?

I think anyone making a public statement vilifying Holocausr Day would make sure of their facts first.
A quick look at Wiki is all it would take.
Instead, Walker made her authoritative sounding statements and assertions that actually were based on no knowledge or facts at all! (Remind you of anyone?)
Her slander was just whims from her empty head, or maybe she knew it was a lie and was confident that her intended audience would lap it up without question.

The continued refusal to accept that there is a Right of Return for Palestinians is institutionalised ethnic cleansing. The same would of course apply to any similar policy in Arab (or European) nations where exiled Jewish people might seek to return.

Exiled Jews have been assimilated into Israel and helped make a new life there, so they would not want to return.
Exiled Arabs have been kept in squalor and deprivation by their Arab hosts. A life anywhere else is what they dream of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM

The actions of the Arabs has rendered any "right of return" impossible - any Israeli Government that allowed any such "return" knows that it would be the equivalent of committing "national suicide". That is the reality and it is recognised by all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Holocaust Day is indeed officially intended to commemorate all the victims of the Nazi Holocaust, aand also of other genocides. But I wonder how many people actually realise that fact, or that there were other victime of the Nazi Holocaust?
......
The continued refusal to accept that there is a Right of Return for Palestinians is institutionalised ethnic cleansing. The same would of course apply to any similar policy in Arab (or European) nations where exiled Jewish people might seek to return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

I strongly disagree.

If all the people who condemn the Nazis were dishonorable/bounders that would make the proponents of Nazi policies, but did not use the word, honorable.

However in a debate should one employ the name of Hitler against their opponent, it usually is a sad exaggeration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:37 AM

one of the thing MGM used to say - you can always spot the bounder in political discussion - they're the first one to mention the Nazis...


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:24 AM

It would be anti-semitic to claim that Holocaust Day does not commemorate non-Jewish victims, implying Jews do not care about any suffering but theirs.
That is one of the things Walker did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:19 AM

Jim,
Now it has become "Antisemitic" to suggest all victims of Nazism should be remembered on Holocaust day – how sick can you get?

No it has not, and Holocaust Day DOES remember all victims of genocide in WW2 and since.


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Subject: RE: BS:Don't Talk to Strangers
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tube-chat-dont-even-think-about-talking-to-me-badges-handed-out-on-underground-a3358071.ht


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:58 AM

Israel Uber Alles

Showing us, once again, what a nasty little anti-Semite you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:33 AM

"And the far greater driving away of Jewish families and communities that occurred at the same time Kevin - not a squeak from you or anyone else it would seem.

Nothing at all from you about the illegal invasion, occupation and illegal attempted annexation of Gaza by Egypt and East Jerusalem and Samaria and Judea by Jordan in 1948 that lasted until they were driven out by the IDF in 1967."


Nicely ducked Kevin.

Here's a couple of other questions for you to neatly side-step:

The last officially recognised borders of Palestine were created when?

Show me a map drawn up by the PA, Hamas, Hezbollah or any other involved Arab organisation that shows the borders of this "Two State Israel/Palestine Solution" they talk about when they address the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:23 AM

"Until you people accept that Arabs have as much right to occupy this land as the Jews do, no solution will ever be reached" - Jim Carroll

No idea who the "you people" refers to and their acceptance of whatever is irrelevant. Of course the Arabs have the right to occupy the land, only thing wrong is the bit about the Jews having the same rights - you see the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Iran and others do not believe that the Jews have any rights at all. The Hamas charter calls for the Jews to be annihilated, a view they simply will not compromise on. "No solution will be reached" until that Arab mind-set is altered - nothing whatsoever to do with "you people" tapping away on keyboards on an internet forum appraising you of that fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:18 AM

Now it has become "Antisemitic" to suggest all victims of Nazism should be remembered on Holocaust day – how sick can you get?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM

What the hell has over half a century got to do with what's happening today
Do we have to ss#tart remembering all the grenades that were tossed in to occupied houses by Israeli "freedom fighters"?
Until you people accept that Arabs have as much right to occupy this land as the Jews do, no solution will ever be reached and you will remain the inhuman monsters that you are.
This should be about living human beings and not long dead politicians
Bobad has put yopur case perfectly - Israel Uber Alles
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:28 AM


The crucial point about ethnic cleansing is not about whether what drove people into exile was forcable expulsion or just fear of war, it is about whether they are permitted to return home subsequently, or whether they are refused this right, and their absence is used as an opportunity by others to take over the land from which they fled and wipe out the traces of their existence.


That is true of the Jews in Arab states at the time of the "Nakba."
There were many more of them than Arab refugees, but Israel took them all in on their tiny sliver of land, while the Arab refugees in Arab lands were denied citizenship and employment rights and kept in squalid camps to the present day.
Israel took in far more refugees than left, and is not responsible for the plight of those who left


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 03:07 AM

"The Jews are the indigenous population of the land that is Israel"
Substitute "Aryans" for "Jews" in that sentence and you have an example of what happens when such a horrific belief is attempted to be put into practice.
Creating a purely ethnic state is what Holocausts are made of.
Your ancestors (six million of them, at least) must be very proud of you.
What kind of monsters are you?
Ethnic cleansing it is - in your own words
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:40 PM

The crucial point about ethnic cleansing is not about whether what drove people into exile was forcable expulsion or just fear of war, it is about whether they are permitted to return home subsequently, or whether they are refused this right, and their absence is used as an opportunity by others to take over the land from which they fled and wipe out the traces of their existence.

Most of those fleeing Syria now are not coming because they are being forcibly exiled, but because their lives were at risk in the chaos of war. If their return is prevented by a new regime in the aftermath of the war - as could well happen if a Sunni jihidist regime were to win, especially in the case of Christians and Shia - that would clearly be a case of ethnic cleansing.
..........
I agree with DMG. The trouble is, the last time I looked at that other thread it had turned pretty toxic. This threatens to happen here as well. Many people seem to find it impossible to remain civil while in sharp disagreement with others over matters they care about. Or perhaps they don't try, believing that civility in such circumstances is somehow inauthentic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:09 PM

Good night Smeg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM

Same old BooSpew. Re-read 01 Oct 16 - 06:36 PM and say good night, Bubo


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM

Arab refugees tell the stories of their "expulsion" from Israel during the Arab Israeli War of 1948:

YouTube 1

YouTube 2

YouTube 3

Benny Morris (a favourite of our resident anti-Israel propagandists) on the so-called "expulsions":

Did the Zionists Ethnically Cleanse Palestine from Arabs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 06:36 PM

I'm very sorry the way this thread has lost it's way. If it doesn't get back on track pretty soon I suggest it should be given the chop.

Quite so. There is a thread that was set up by Keith specifically to talk about Labour and anti-Semitism. This thread was specifically set up by McGrath to talk about other aspects. No one is saying the topic should not be discussed, but why cover it in both threads? This thread loses all purpose if it is simply repeating the same arguments that are in the other thread (and it's all the same people as well)

If we can't keep the topics apart, the threads should be merged or one closed, in my opinion. But I know it is not my decision either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

"The Arabs - all of them - chose the path of war" That seems highly unlikely - I would think it pretty certain that large numbers of ordinary Arabs, like ordinary people in any circumstances, were getting on with daily life and were completely out of touch and unconcerned with all this political stuff. ."All Arabs" or "All Jews" or "All Christians" or "All Hindus" - that's the language of sectarianism and racism.

Ethnic cleansing is where one ethnic population, typically in a time of conflict, has to leave their homeland, and is permanently replaced by another ethnic population. This unquestionably happened to Palestinians in the Nakba. Teribus argues that this was justified - but that would be completely beside the point, even if the arguments were incontestable, which they certainly are not. This episode of ethnic cleansing is a matter of history. There is of course a precedent for denying another terrible fact of history, and it is rightly seen as ridiculous and shameful.
............
I'm very sorry the way this thread has lost it's way. If it doesn't get back on track pretty soon I suggest it should be given the chop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM

exodus of most of the native population

The Jews are the indigenous population of the land that is Israel including Judea and Samaria which is their heartland from which their very name is derived, it is the Arabs who were the colonizers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM

"Nothing at all from you about the illegal invasion, occupation and illegal attempted annexation of Gaza by Egypt and East Jerusalem and Samaria and Judea by Jordan in 1948"
Excusing modern ethnic cleansing by using something that happened over half a century ago, when most of today's protagonists were not even born has to be the crassest yet - may as well start ethnically cleansing Germany for what happened in the thirties and forties..
The Jews left these countries for MANY REASONS, persecution being only one - they left many countries East and West for the same reason
They also left from choice to be part of the 'Promised Land', which, as Ben Gurion admitted, was created on STOLEN Arab Land .
Many left because of the Arab-Israeli war - as you've already claimed that the Palestinians have no right to their home because they left because of war, you can hardly complain abut the Jews leaving for the same reason.
"Arabs and those of other religious denominations living in Israel have thrived since 1949"
Bloody nonsense - go look at THE INEQUALITY REPORT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

And the far greater driving away of Jewish families and communities that occurred at the same time Kevin - not a squeak from you or anyone else it would seem.

Nothing at all from you about the illegal invasion, occupation and illegal attempted annexation of Gaza by Egypt and East Jerusalem and Samaria and Judea by Jordan in 1948 that lasted until they were driven out by the IDF in 1967.

In 1948 the Arabs - all of them - chose the path of war instead of peaceful co-existence - people should accept responsibility for their actions. Since then on numerous occasions the Arabs of the region (The Jews of the region are as "Palestinian" as Yasser Arafat's construction) have threatened the Jews of the region (Note that: the Jews of the region NOT the Israeli Regime) with annihilation. It was the Egyptians and Jordanians who put Arabs of the region in refugee camps refusing them permission to be assimilated into the general population. It was Yasser Arafat's invented "Palestinians" who sought to destabilise and overthrow the Governments of Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon.

Right of return may well have been an option in 1949 it is not now.

Arabs and those of other religious denominations living in Israel have thrived since 1949 - the same cannot be said for any minority living under Arab rule in the region. The Palestine Authority cannot even get it's act together to come to any form of agreement with Hamas who rule Gaza in what must be one of the most repressive regimes of modern times. The Arabs of the region are in the predicament they are in 100% because of the actions and policies of their own leaders - their choice let them live with it. They have had 67 years to resolve this mess so the next time trouble flares let them fight it out to the finish and let the world be done with them once and for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM

You might add the driving of Bedouins off their land using chemical sprays and forcing them onto toxic rubbish dumps.
Creating an Apartheid State is a form of Ethnic Cleansing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

What "massive ethnic cleansing"?

I refer to the exodus of most of the native population of what is now Israel at the time the state was founded, and the continued refusal to allow them to return home subsequently. The homes and villages where they lived have been destroyed, the memory of their very existence airbrushed away. This is as clear an example of ethnic cleansing as you could find anywhere.


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