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BS: Labour party discussion

bobad 02 Oct 16 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 16 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 02:38 PM
Teribus 02 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM
Donuel 02 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Oct 16 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 10:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 10:19 AM
Donuel 02 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM
bobad 02 Oct 16 - 08:58 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 16 - 06:33 AM
Teribus 02 Oct 16 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 05:18 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Oct 16 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Oct 16 - 03:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 08:40 PM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 08:09 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM
DMcG 01 Oct 16 - 06:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM
Teribus 01 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 10:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 10:13 AM
bobad 01 Oct 16 - 09:48 AM
Teribus 01 Oct 16 - 09:38 AM
Teribus 01 Oct 16 - 09:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 08:12 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Oct 16 - 05:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM
Greg F. 30 Sep 16 - 09:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 16 - 06:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM
bobad 30 Sep 16 - 04:07 PM
bobad 30 Sep 16 - 04:04 PM
Greg F. 30 Sep 16 - 02:28 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 16 - 02:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 16 - 01:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 16 - 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 07:13 PM

any Israeli Government that allowed any such "return" knows that it would be the equivalent of committing "national suicide".

And that's precisely what it's proponents would like to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:12 PM

My point there,Keith, wasn't whether Jackie Walker knew that Holocaust Day is, officially at least, about all genocides. It's that, so far as most people are concerned it actually isn't. And insofar as that is the case, it needs to be challenged. If Jackie Walker was challenging that failure to get the message across, that would be perfectly reasonable.

As for the fact that her expressing confusion about how antisemitism should be defined, the extended detour this thread has made indicates very clearly that there is indeed confusion about this, and about how far the term can appropriately used in respect of attitudes towards the Israeli government and the State of Israel, rather than towards Jews and Judaism.

It strikes me that when Jews who challenge such an extension of the term are attacked as "self-hating Jews", that is itself at very least extremely close to being an example of anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 02:38 PM

. But I wonder how many people actually realise that fact, or that there were other victime of the Nazi Holocaust?

I think anyone making a public statement vilifying Holocausr Day would make sure of their facts first.
A quick look at Wiki is all it would take.
Instead, Walker made her authoritative sounding statements and assertions that actually were based on no knowledge or facts at all! (Remind you of anyone?)
Her slander was just whims from her empty head, or maybe she knew it was a lie and was confident that her intended audience would lap it up without question.

The continued refusal to accept that there is a Right of Return for Palestinians is institutionalised ethnic cleansing. The same would of course apply to any similar policy in Arab (or European) nations where exiled Jewish people might seek to return.

Exiled Jews have been assimilated into Israel and helped make a new life there, so they would not want to return.
Exiled Arabs have been kept in squalor and deprivation by their Arab hosts. A life anywhere else is what they dream of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 02:27 PM

The actions of the Arabs has rendered any "right of return" impossible - any Israeli Government that allowed any such "return" knows that it would be the equivalent of committing "national suicide". That is the reality and it is recognised by all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Holocaust Day is indeed officially intended to commemorate all the victims of the Nazi Holocaust, aand also of other genocides. But I wonder how many people actually realise that fact, or that there were other victime of the Nazi Holocaust?
......
The continued refusal to accept that there is a Right of Return for Palestinians is institutionalised ethnic cleansing. The same would of course apply to any similar policy in Arab (or European) nations where exiled Jewish people might seek to return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

I strongly disagree.

If all the people who condemn the Nazis were dishonorable/bounders that would make the proponents of Nazi policies, but did not use the word, honorable.

However in a debate should one employ the name of Hitler against their opponent, it usually is a sad exaggeration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:37 AM

one of the thing MGM used to say - you can always spot the bounder in political discussion - they're the first one to mention the Nazis...


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:24 AM

It would be anti-semitic to claim that Holocaust Day does not commemorate non-Jewish victims, implying Jews do not care about any suffering but theirs.
That is one of the things Walker did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:19 AM

Jim,
Now it has become "Antisemitic" to suggest all victims of Nazism should be remembered on Holocaust day – how sick can you get?

No it has not, and Holocaust Day DOES remember all victims of genocide in WW2 and since.


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Subject: RE: BS:Don't Talk to Strangers
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/tube-chat-dont-even-think-about-talking-to-me-badges-handed-out-on-underground-a3358071.ht


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 08:58 AM

Israel Uber Alles

Showing us, once again, what a nasty little anti-Semite you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:33 AM

"And the far greater driving away of Jewish families and communities that occurred at the same time Kevin - not a squeak from you or anyone else it would seem.

Nothing at all from you about the illegal invasion, occupation and illegal attempted annexation of Gaza by Egypt and East Jerusalem and Samaria and Judea by Jordan in 1948 that lasted until they were driven out by the IDF in 1967."


Nicely ducked Kevin.

Here's a couple of other questions for you to neatly side-step:

The last officially recognised borders of Palestine were created when?

Show me a map drawn up by the PA, Hamas, Hezbollah or any other involved Arab organisation that shows the borders of this "Two State Israel/Palestine Solution" they talk about when they address the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:23 AM

"Until you people accept that Arabs have as much right to occupy this land as the Jews do, no solution will ever be reached" - Jim Carroll

No idea who the "you people" refers to and their acceptance of whatever is irrelevant. Of course the Arabs have the right to occupy the land, only thing wrong is the bit about the Jews having the same rights - you see the likes of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Iran and others do not believe that the Jews have any rights at all. The Hamas charter calls for the Jews to be annihilated, a view they simply will not compromise on. "No solution will be reached" until that Arab mind-set is altered - nothing whatsoever to do with "you people" tapping away on keyboards on an internet forum appraising you of that fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 05:18 AM

Now it has become "Antisemitic" to suggest all victims of Nazism should be remembered on Holocaust day – how sick can you get?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM

What the hell has over half a century got to do with what's happening today
Do we have to ss#tart remembering all the grenades that were tossed in to occupied houses by Israeli "freedom fighters"?
Until you people accept that Arabs have as much right to occupy this land as the Jews do, no solution will ever be reached and you will remain the inhuman monsters that you are.
This should be about living human beings and not long dead politicians
Bobad has put yopur case perfectly - Israel Uber Alles
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 04:28 AM


The crucial point about ethnic cleansing is not about whether what drove people into exile was forcable expulsion or just fear of war, it is about whether they are permitted to return home subsequently, or whether they are refused this right, and their absence is used as an opportunity by others to take over the land from which they fled and wipe out the traces of their existence.


That is true of the Jews in Arab states at the time of the "Nakba."
There were many more of them than Arab refugees, but Israel took them all in on their tiny sliver of land, while the Arab refugees in Arab lands were denied citizenship and employment rights and kept in squalid camps to the present day.
Israel took in far more refugees than left, and is not responsible for the plight of those who left


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 03:07 AM

"The Jews are the indigenous population of the land that is Israel"
Substitute "Aryans" for "Jews" in that sentence and you have an example of what happens when such a horrific belief is attempted to be put into practice.
Creating a purely ethnic state is what Holocausts are made of.
Your ancestors (six million of them, at least) must be very proud of you.
What kind of monsters are you?
Ethnic cleansing it is - in your own words
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:40 PM

The crucial point about ethnic cleansing is not about whether what drove people into exile was forcable expulsion or just fear of war, it is about whether they are permitted to return home subsequently, or whether they are refused this right, and their absence is used as an opportunity by others to take over the land from which they fled and wipe out the traces of their existence.

Most of those fleeing Syria now are not coming because they are being forcibly exiled, but because their lives were at risk in the chaos of war. If their return is prevented by a new regime in the aftermath of the war - as could well happen if a Sunni jihidist regime were to win, especially in the case of Christians and Shia - that would clearly be a case of ethnic cleansing.
..........
I agree with DMG. The trouble is, the last time I looked at that other thread it had turned pretty toxic. This threatens to happen here as well. Many people seem to find it impossible to remain civil while in sharp disagreement with others over matters they care about. Or perhaps they don't try, believing that civility in such circumstances is somehow inauthentic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:09 PM

Good night Smeg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:07 PM

Same old BooSpew. Re-read 01 Oct 16 - 06:36 PM and say good night, Bubo


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 06:49 PM

Arab refugees tell the stories of their "expulsion" from Israel during the Arab Israeli War of 1948:

YouTube 1

YouTube 2

YouTube 3

Benny Morris (a favourite of our resident anti-Israel propagandists) on the so-called "expulsions":

Did the Zionists Ethnically Cleanse Palestine from Arabs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 06:36 PM

I'm very sorry the way this thread has lost it's way. If it doesn't get back on track pretty soon I suggest it should be given the chop.

Quite so. There is a thread that was set up by Keith specifically to talk about Labour and anti-Semitism. This thread was specifically set up by McGrath to talk about other aspects. No one is saying the topic should not be discussed, but why cover it in both threads? This thread loses all purpose if it is simply repeating the same arguments that are in the other thread (and it's all the same people as well)

If we can't keep the topics apart, the threads should be merged or one closed, in my opinion. But I know it is not my decision either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:44 PM

"The Arabs - all of them - chose the path of war" That seems highly unlikely - I would think it pretty certain that large numbers of ordinary Arabs, like ordinary people in any circumstances, were getting on with daily life and were completely out of touch and unconcerned with all this political stuff. ."All Arabs" or "All Jews" or "All Christians" or "All Hindus" - that's the language of sectarianism and racism.

Ethnic cleansing is where one ethnic population, typically in a time of conflict, has to leave their homeland, and is permanently replaced by another ethnic population. This unquestionably happened to Palestinians in the Nakba. Teribus argues that this was justified - but that would be completely beside the point, even if the arguments were incontestable, which they certainly are not. This episode of ethnic cleansing is a matter of history. There is of course a precedent for denying another terrible fact of history, and it is rightly seen as ridiculous and shameful.
............
I'm very sorry the way this thread has lost it's way. If it doesn't get back on track pretty soon I suggest it should be given the chop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:15 PM

exodus of most of the native population

The Jews are the indigenous population of the land that is Israel including Judea and Samaria which is their heartland from which their very name is derived, it is the Arabs who were the colonizers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM

"Nothing at all from you about the illegal invasion, occupation and illegal attempted annexation of Gaza by Egypt and East Jerusalem and Samaria and Judea by Jordan in 1948"
Excusing modern ethnic cleansing by using something that happened over half a century ago, when most of today's protagonists were not even born has to be the crassest yet - may as well start ethnically cleansing Germany for what happened in the thirties and forties..
The Jews left these countries for MANY REASONS, persecution being only one - they left many countries East and West for the same reason
They also left from choice to be part of the 'Promised Land', which, as Ben Gurion admitted, was created on STOLEN Arab Land .
Many left because of the Arab-Israeli war - as you've already claimed that the Palestinians have no right to their home because they left because of war, you can hardly complain abut the Jews leaving for the same reason.
"Arabs and those of other religious denominations living in Israel have thrived since 1949"
Bloody nonsense - go look at THE INEQUALITY REPORT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:47 PM

And the far greater driving away of Jewish families and communities that occurred at the same time Kevin - not a squeak from you or anyone else it would seem.

Nothing at all from you about the illegal invasion, occupation and illegal attempted annexation of Gaza by Egypt and East Jerusalem and Samaria and Judea by Jordan in 1948 that lasted until they were driven out by the IDF in 1967.

In 1948 the Arabs - all of them - chose the path of war instead of peaceful co-existence - people should accept responsibility for their actions. Since then on numerous occasions the Arabs of the region (The Jews of the region are as "Palestinian" as Yasser Arafat's construction) have threatened the Jews of the region (Note that: the Jews of the region NOT the Israeli Regime) with annihilation. It was the Egyptians and Jordanians who put Arabs of the region in refugee camps refusing them permission to be assimilated into the general population. It was Yasser Arafat's invented "Palestinians" who sought to destabilise and overthrow the Governments of Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon.

Right of return may well have been an option in 1949 it is not now.

Arabs and those of other religious denominations living in Israel have thrived since 1949 - the same cannot be said for any minority living under Arab rule in the region. The Palestine Authority cannot even get it's act together to come to any form of agreement with Hamas who rule Gaza in what must be one of the most repressive regimes of modern times. The Arabs of the region are in the predicament they are in 100% because of the actions and policies of their own leaders - their choice let them live with it. They have had 67 years to resolve this mess so the next time trouble flares let them fight it out to the finish and let the world be done with them once and for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM

You might add the driving of Bedouins off their land using chemical sprays and forcing them onto toxic rubbish dumps.
Creating an Apartheid State is a form of Ethnic Cleansing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

What "massive ethnic cleansing"?

I refer to the exodus of most of the native population of what is now Israel at the time the state was founded, and the continued refusal to allow them to return home subsequently. The homes and villages where they lived have been destroyed, the memory of their very existence airbrushed away. This is as clear an example of ethnic cleansing as you could find anywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 10:44 AM

"I think it would be far better to return to more genuine issues around left wing politics in England."
well-trodden territory, I agree entirely.
This pair will defend atrocities till the blood runs out of their ears
They are a waste of time
As for Bobad
"Another typical anti-Semitic trope t"
Doesn't he make my point perfectly?
"Israel's Justice minister did and it is the knee-jerk reaction of supporters of Israeli is to describe criticism as ANTISEMITISM"
Why bother - one just denies and tells lies, one pontificates without evidence and the pet Rottweiler just spits mindless vitriol?
Move on fellers. - plenty to discuss other than this garbage.
Jim Carrroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

Kevin,
The piece about the Israeli minister of justice very clearly showed her seeking to identify significant criticism of Israel as essentially antisemitic.

It really did not.
She said that antisemites used to be able tp speak against Jews, but now they speak against Israel.
It is obvious that antisemites will speak nagainst Israel, but it is a logical fallacy to interpret that as meaning all who speak against Israel are antisemites. None of us here have claimed that, no Israeli minister has claimed that, and it is not an issue in the Labour Party.

Antisemitism is something quite different from criticism of the actions of the state of Israel,

Of course it is. No-one is disagreeing with that so why say it?
Nevertheless, some critics are indeed motivated by antisemitism. Does anyone deny that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 10:13 AM

"massive ethnic cleansing"

Another typical anti-Semitic trope that, along with apartheid state, stolen "Palestinian" land, controlling banks and media etc., Jew haters are fond of throwing around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 09:48 AM

U.K.'s Labour Party Suspends Member Over Holocaust Remembrance Day Comments

Jackie Walker also questioned the need for security at Jewish institutions, during a workshop on how to confront anti-Semitism and engage Jewish voters.


A senior activist in Britain's Labour Party who is close to controversial party leader Jeremy Corbyn was suspended from the party late on Friday after she questioned why Holocaust Remembrance Day is only about Jews.

Jackie Walker also questioned the need for security at Jewish institutions, suggesting that anti-Semitism is not behind any attacks, during a workshop organized by the Jewish Labour Movement at the annual party conference on how to confront anti-Semitism and engage Jewish voters.

Recordings of her comments were published Wednesday on the Huffington Post.

Walker, a vice chair of Momentum — an organization formed to help Corbyn and Labour win the next national election — was suspended from the party in May for making anti-Semitic remarks. She was later reinstated.

"I was a bit concerned … at your suggestions that the Jewish community is under such threat that they have to use security in all its buildings," she said during the workshop, according to the Huffington Post.

Walker also told workshop participants that she still had not heard "a definition of anti-Semitism that I can work with."

She later apologized if her comments caused any offense, The Independent reported.

"Having been a victim of racism, I would never play down the very real fears the Jewish community have, especially in light of recent attacks in France," Walker said. "I would never play down the significance of the Shoah. Working with many Jewish comrades, I continue to seek to bring greater awareness of other genocides, which are too often forgotten or minimized. If offense has been caused, it is the last thing I would want to do and I apologize."

"I … utterly condemn anti-Semitism," Walker said.

Jeremy Newmark, the chair of the Jewish Labour Movement, called for Walker to resign over the comments.

"To denigrate security provision at Jewish schools, make false claims about the universality of National Holocaust Memorial Day and to challenge recognized definitions of anti-Semitism is provocative, offensive and a stark example of the problem facing the Labour Party today," Newmark said.

Gideon Falter, chairman of Britain's Campaign Against Antisemitism, also called for Walker to be expelled from the party and Momentum, and "condemned in the strongest possible terms."

"Until Labour matches its rhetoric with action, we remain of the view that the Labour Party is not safe for Jews," he said.

Holocaust Memorial Day does also honor the victims of other genocides and the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust's website includes information on atrocities in Rwanda and Cambodia, according to the U.K. Jewish News website.

The Labour Party is poised to take disciplinary action against Walker over the comments, the Jewish News reported, saying she has been told to "show contrition or resign." The report did not cite any sources.

Corbyn has faced allegations that his pro-Palestinian politics and endorsement of radical anti-Semites has encouraged hate speech against Jews. He been accused of doing too little to curb rampant anti-Semitism among party members and lawmakers, some of whom have been suspended for making racist and anti-Semitic statements on social media and in other public forums


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 09:38 AM

What "massive ethnic cleansing" Kevin?

Where and when has the state of Israel ever been indicted for war crimes or for crimes against humanity? In seeking a reply to this question I am not interested in what anyone on this forum thinks is a war crime, or thinks is a crime against humanity I am looking for specific charges brought before an international court and successfully prosecuted, charges, places and dates of the trials would be good as well as sentences handed down as a result of the guilty verdicts having been given.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 09:38 AM

What "massive ethnic cleansing" Kevin?

Where and when has the state of Israel ever been indicted for war crimes or for crimes against humanity? In seeking a reply to this question I am not interested in what anyone on this forum thinks is a war crime, or thinks is a crime against humanity I am looking for specific charges brought before an international court and successfully prosecuted, charges, places and dates of the trials would be good as well as sentences handed down as a result of the guilty verdicts having been given.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

The piece about the Israeli minister of justice very clearly showed her seeking to identify significant criticism of Israel as essentially antisemitic.

The fact that there were at one time European leaders who were antisemitic was presented as provng that when different European leaders today criticise Israel, this had to be seen as antisemitic.

She identified protests against killings of noncombatants by the IDC as "blood libels" as if there could be no grounds for objecting to such bloodshed unless it was motivated by fantatical prejudice against all Jews.

Antisemitism is something quite different from criticism of the actions of the state of Israel, or even from a refusal to accept the legitimacy of that state as established on the basis of massive ethnic cleansing. I would suggest that identifying such criticism as antisemitic, and identifying Jews everywhere with Israel risks causing critics to accept this identification. And it seems to me that identifying Jews as such with the Israeli regime and State is in fact antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 08:12 AM

Jim,
So it is antisemitic to speak against Israel - or not?

No it is not, and none of those mentioned or quoted in either thread has ever claimed that it is.

Antisemites will obviously be speaking against Israel, but all who speak against Israel are not antisemites.

Links have been proven to exist which connect the Anti-boycott campaign to the accusation of (unproven) Antisemiitism in the Labour party

No they have not Jim.

When he was murdering the citizens of Homs, You described attempts to stop him as "invasion and "fascism"

Here we go with the untrue smears. I have never said any such thing. I started the first of only two threads on Syria, calling mine "Homs horror."
I was one of the very few Mudcatters who spoke in support of Obama's plan to launch reprisals for Assad's chemical attacks. We agreed on that Jim, and so did Cameron.

You have never at any time opposed the selling of arms to these despots,
There were no arms sales to oppose.

Israel is singled out because she is a war criminal
No decent democracy believes that.

Kevin,
The thread was diverted from talking about the Labour Party's current situation to talking about antisemitism because people opposed to the changes which have led to Jeremy Corbyn being reendorsed by the membership have levelled accusations of antisemitism against those supporting him.

No. Antisemitism in Labour was always part of the discussion.
I question why issues relating to Israel and Middle East, including events over thirty years old, have displaced the subject in the thread titles!


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 07:35 AM

The thread was diverted from talking about the Labour Party's current situation to talking about antisemitism because people opposed to the changes which have led to Jeremy Corbyn being reendorsed by the membership have levelled accusations of antisemitism against those supporting him.

These accusations have invited posts seeking to show them to be unfair and misdirected. And those posts have led to responses by people trying to show that they are justified.

At the same time in the real world stuff like suspensions of people accused of antisemitism is succeeding in focusing attention on this and keeping the issue very central. Those who see this as a cynical and manipulative tactic that seeks to exploit the natural revulsion against antisemitism to attack political opponents unjustly see it as necessary to say so.

I think it would be far better to return to more genuine issues around left wing politics in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM

"It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, "
"Now, we see them speaking against Israel."
"Yes, because they can not get away with blatant antisemitism any more."
So it is antisemitic to speak against Israel - or not?
Which is it to be Keith - you've just said it is?
"Two threads on the Labour Party and both now hijacked and turned into yet more threads about Israel."
Links have been proven to exist which connect the Anti-boycott campaign to the accusation of (unproven) Antisemiitism in the Labour party - how dare you or anybody attempt to prevent us discussing those links, where do you think you are - Israel?
"and no-one here or in Israel's government has ever claimed that it is"
Israel's Justice minister did and it is the knee-jerk reaction of supporters of Israeli to describe criticism as ANTISEMITISM - you have accused me of it; Bobad's frothing-at-the mouth postings do nothing else.
"so why not boycott him?"
Why not indeed but what's that got to do with anything - nobody here supports Assad other than you when you said it was OK to sell him arms and equipment to put down the Arab Spring protesters.
When he was murdering the citizens of Homs, You described attempts to stop him as "invasion and "fascism"
You have never at any time opposed the selling of arms to these despots, on the contrary, you have defended arms sales.
Israel is singled out because she is a war criminal and human rights abuser who continues those crimes and abuses, has carried on a ten year long blockade of the Palestinian People in order to starve them into submission, and continue to seize their land - along with attempting to create an Apartheid State and ethnically cleanse non Jews from the Area.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 05:27 AM

Why was South Africa boycotted? There were and are worse regimes in some ways.

Basically the difference is that countries which aspire and claim to be democracies by virtue of that invite a special kind of criticism, one which tries to hold them to the standards they claim to accept. In addition the fact that there is significant mainstream for these countries in our society invites critics to respond to that. There is very little support for North Korea in our society, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Oct 16 - 04:54 AM

Two threads on the Labour Party and both now hijacked and turned into yet more threads about Israel.

Kevin and Steve,
It is not antisemitic to criticise Israel, and no-one here or in Israel's government has ever claimed that it is, and it has not been an issue in Labour antisemitism.

Antisemitic bigots will obviously be hostile to Israel, but not all critics of Israel are antisemites.

"In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews."
So they were antisemites.
"Now, we see them speaking against Israel."
Yes, because they can not get away with blatant antisemitism any more.

When BDS began, Assad's regime had an infinitely worse human rights record, so why not boycott him?
Russia and Iran have appalling civil rights records, and are daily committing atrocities in Syria. Any boycott planned.
China? N.Korea?
Why is Israel singled out as if it was the worst place in the world, and why can we not discuss our Labour Party in threads dedicated to that subject?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 09:07 PM

Again, thanks Kevin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 06:06 PM

Sorry - spot the unintentional slip in that post - here is the corrected version.

The minister was not limiting her comments to any particular organisation, but to the very principle of boycotting Israel.

A few years ago any time I was buying oranges, for example, I'd check they weren't South African. Now I always check they aren't from Israel. My reasons are precisely the same. They are in no way expressions of antisemitism.

The illegitimacy of apartheid South Africa was undermined by the fact that it's formal democratic structure - general elections, parliament etc - was founded on the exclusion of the African population, and the system under which they were said to be citizens of Bantustans.

Those who challenge the legitimacy of the present State of Israel do so on the basis of a different but parallel narrative. While Palestinians who were able to stay on the territory of what became Israel, have been allowed to vote, the far larger number who fled into exile have at all times been refused permission to return - which is not consistent with international law. This is the justification for the view that the existing state of Israel lacks legitimacy. In spite of what it is so frequently accused of being, it is not an inherently antisemitic position,

There is an alternative position held by many critics of Israel which involves treating the question of the legitimacy of Israel as being settled. It is seen as a historical matter, analogous to the history of other countries such as the USA or Australia, an injustice to the previous inhabitants that cannot now be reversed. These critics focus on the two-state solution, and their criticisms of Israel are founded on the way in which progress towards that has been reversed, notably by such things as the continued establishments of settlements, in defiance of international law.

But even criticisms and actions such as boycotts based on this position position is in practice denounced as antisemitic. The Israeli minister of justice appears to endorse that accusation, in the light of that article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 06:03 PM

The minister was not limiting her comments to any particular organisation, but to the very principle of boycotting Israel.

A few years ago any time I was buying oranges, for example, I'd check they weren't South African. Now I always check they aren't from Israel. My reasons are precisely the same. They are in no way expressions of antisemitism.

The illegitimacy of apartheid South Africa was undermined by the fact that it's formal democratic structure - general elections, parliament etc - was founded on the exclusion of the African population, and the system under which they were said to be citizens of Bantustans.

Those who challenge the legitimacy of the present South Africa do so on the basis of a different but parallel narrative. While Palestinians who were able to stay on the territory of what became Israel, have been allowed to vote, the far larger number who fled into exile have at all times been refused permission to return - which is not consistent with international law. This is the justification for the view that the existing state of Israel lacks legitimacy. In spite of what it is so frequently accused of being, it is not an inherently antisemitic position,

There is an alternative position held by many critics of Israel which involves treating the question of the legitimacy of Israel as being settled. It is seen as a historical matter, analogous to the history of other countries such as the USA or Australia, an injustice to the previous inhabitants that cannot now be reversed. These critics focus on the two-state solution, and their criticisms of Israel are founded on the way in which progress towards that has been reversed, notably by such things as the continued establishments of settlements, in defiance of international law.

But even criticisms and actions such as boycotts based on this position position is in practice denounced as antisemitic. The Israeli minister of justice appears to endorse that accusation, in the light of that article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:07 PM

23 reasons why BDS is antisemitic


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 04:04 PM

McGrath conveniently leaves out one of the principle goals of the BDS movement, that is "Israel ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands" which to them includes the present state of Israel. That is delegitimization of the legal state of Israel which is considered by most fair minded people as being anti-Semitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 02:28 PM

Hear, Hear, McGrath. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 02:21 PM

So the Israel Justice Minister is saying that criticism of Israel is antisemitic. No caveats, no ifs, no buts. That is pretty clear evidence that the new definition, enshrined in her argument, is fully intended to proscribe all criticism of Israel. Which is what Jim and I and others have been saying all along. Perhaps our opponents would like to distance themselves from the Justice Minister...


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 01:20 PM

Looking at that Washington Post articcle quoting the Israel Justice Minister does seem to confirm that she was seeking to identify those who criticise Israel as anti-semitic

"In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews. Now, we see them speaking against Israel. It is the same anti-Semitism of blood libels, spreading lies, distorting reality and brainwashing people into hating Israel and the Jews," Shaked said in an interview with The Washington Post.

She said supporters of movements such as BDS, which, according to its website, calls for putting economic and political pressure on Israel in a bid to force it to comply with international law and gain rights for Palestinians, are "using the same kind of anti-Semitism but instead of saying they are against the Jews, they say they are against Israel."


Even something as elementary as boycotting Israel is seen as anti-semitic. Was it anti-white to boycott South Africa?

Antii-semitism is a vile thing. But to identify it with boycotting a regime in an attempt to influence it to cease breaking the law is to santitize the term. It's inviting people to say "Well, if that's anti-semitism, I must be an anti-semite".


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 01:13 PM

"How can I ignore it in front of all the contributors on this thread."
Pretty much the same as you are ignoring the facts of the "Self Haring Jews" statement now, which you originally describd as "made up shit"
THread drift - you have to be joking!!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 16 - 12:38 PM

You've had it Keith and you will only ignore it again

If that is true, shame me by repeating it.
How can I ignore it in front of all the contributors on this thread.
You are just squirming and wriggling because your claim is ridiculous and you are unable to support it.

In your quote of Netanhahu, he does not claim that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, only that some critics of Israel are motivated by antisemitism.

You claimed I made the phrase up, now you have claimed I only produced one.

I did not claim that you invented the phrase, and you did initially quote one person, now two, neither of whom have claimed that it is antisemitic to criticise Israel.

And, why are we even discussing Israel Jim? You are obsessed!

Steve, I only asked you to justify your assertions.
That is a reasonable request. If you are incapable of supporting your wild claims, that needs to be exposed, and yet again it has been.


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