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BS: Labour party discussion

Jim Carroll 29 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Sep 16 - 01:35 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 16 - 05:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 16 - 02:41 PM
Good Soldier Schweik 27 Sep 16 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Sep 16 - 03:22 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 16 - 06:06 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 16 - 04:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Sep 16 - 12:33 PM
bobad 26 Sep 16 - 07:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 16 - 03:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Sep 16 - 01:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 16 - 08:21 PM
DMcG 25 Sep 16 - 05:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 16 - 04:15 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 03:10 PM
bobad 25 Sep 16 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 16 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Sep 16 - 12:41 PM
bobad 25 Sep 16 - 12:36 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Sep 16 - 11:29 AM
bobad 25 Sep 16 - 09:50 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 16 - 09:21 AM
bobad 25 Sep 16 - 08:47 AM
DMcG 25 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Sep 16 - 11:19 AM
DMcG 24 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 16 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 09:44 AM
Stanron 23 Sep 16 - 08:59 AM
Good Soldier Schweik 23 Sep 16 - 03:44 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Sep 16 - 03:07 AM
DMcG 23 Sep 16 - 02:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Sep 16 - 01:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM
Greg F. 02 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 10:28 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 16 - 09:24 AM
Teribus 02 Sep 16 - 09:17 AM
Stanron 02 Sep 16 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 08:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 16 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 03:58 AM

"They won 3 elections under Blair. The far left have never won anything.
Led by a war criminal who illegally involved Britain in oil wars which are still bringing British young people home in body bags.
The General election following the war introduced socialist policies what altered the face of Britain, social housing, a National Health Scheme which, for all its faults, is the envy of the world, unemployment and hardship benefits, a voice in the work[lace.... all paid for by sharing the profits brought about.
All these were violently opposed and all but destroyed by Conservative Governments and the move away from Socialist values by later Labour politicians led to a return to the dog-eat-dog system we now live under.
No period in history has ever produced such radical beneficial changes for the people of Britain than those introduced by the post-war Labour Government.
Extreme right wing policies such as those forced through by Thatcher, the self-declared fascist, led immediately to a steep rise in unemployment which continues to fluctuate, a loss of voice in the workplace, a sharp divide between rich and poor, insecurity of tenure in our homes, and the destruction of our industries, some of them which had taken centuries to build.
Right-wing politics have brought Britain nothing but hardship, insecurity and a dependence on foreign imports.
The largest export from Britain today is FINANCE which benefits only the wealthy.
Corbyn has promised a break with that rotten, out-dated system, and haven't the privileged rats run round in circles trying to stop him - throwing at him everything from misogyny to antisemitism.      
Let's hope he doesn't go 'the Way of all Political Flesh' and lives up to his promise to introduce genuine socialist policies.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Sep 16 - 01:35 AM

On their own they'll never win anything.

They won 3 elections under Blair. The far left have never won anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:28 PM

That's exactly how I see it. And the naysayers need a massive dose of humility in recalling that they were responsible for inflicting Cameron on us twice over. Two-time losers. On their own they'll never win anything. They need the Corbyn dose of fresh air!


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM

Jeremy's speech to Labour Conference was pretty good, I felt. And it was interesting to see the Red Flag and Jerusalem stuck in at the end of the speech, and a lively rendering rather than the way it normally gets tucked away at the end in a very embarrassed way. (Speech and songs both on YouTube).

Now if only the silly buggers could get over themselves, stop having tantrums, and get together. The trouble is there's a faction who actually seem to want a defeat in order to get rid of the threat of what Corbyn stands for - democratic socialism. Corbyn winning an election would be seen by the likes of Mandelson as the worst outcome, and they are working hard to make sure that doesn't happen.   But I don't think that faction is as powerful within the Labour Party, even the PLP, as it thinks - though of course it's the
way pretty well all the media is slanted, including the Guardian and even the BBC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 02:41 PM

Hi there keith! very saddened by the recent death of MGM. he was a very special sort of chap. I visited him at his house near cambridge and we went to the local pub for dinner. Witty, donnish, incisive. He asked me to come again, but with denise being ill so much of the time I never made it.

still doing the occasional gig. still don't really feel up to the waspishness of Mudcat. something to do with getting older I suppose.

Anyway best of luck to you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 02:18 PM

I admire Jeremy Corbyn, I think renationalisation of the railways is a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 16 - 03:22 AM

Hi Big Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:06 PM

He has very clearly and repeated nade it crystal clear that he is against all that kind of stuff. I'm not sure what more he can do. After all it doesn't help any.

I continue to suspect that some of the stuff that has been reported, especially the violent woman-hating specimens, may have been planted rather than being from genuine Corbyn supporters. Nothing to stop that kind of thing, that's how the Internet works. Either way the people responsible are nuts. There are plenty of those on the Net.

But I distinguish between that and the directly political abuse, though I don't like those either. From what I've seen looking at Labour List or comments in newspaper sites, the Corbyn haters are Pretty much in evidence there, though not much seems to have been said about it. The media story is that it's all one way, which is a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 04:19 PM

Theres certain phrases i really wish Jeremy would ask his followers to leave behind 'Blairite scum', 'riding the gravy train', 'backstabbers'

They recur again and again and they are highly inflammatory - not to say insulting to people who admittedly have a different view, but in many cases have served the party for years, as well as they could.

We need to bury that shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:33 PM

In all the upset about online abuse it,s been interesting to note how completely different types of hostile language havve been jumbled together and denounced as if they were the same. So it's implied that political insults, such as "traitor", or "Tory" or "Trot" are every bit as much to be abhorred and denounced as vile sexist or racist insults or threats.

So is it suggested that the Red Flag, with its "let cowards fkinch and traitors sneer" should be shunned?

I'm with Corbyn in preferring to avoid even those kind of essentially political insults, as unhelpful and needlessly provocative, but I don't think they should be outlawed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 07:29 AM

......and **** up another thread Keith

You already have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:49 AM

Thanks for clearing that up Jim.
The rest of your post was all about me, and then you said "don't feed the troll."
I doubt if I was the only one who assumed you were still talking about me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:19 AM

"You did Jim when, referring to my posts specifically,"
I really am not going to enter into a dialogue with you and **** up another thread Keith
If you read what I wrote (and maybe get somebody to explain it), it was addressed to Steve's responding to troll Bobad, which he had done - that way be dragons for this thread.
The world really doesn't revolve around you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 01:40 AM

"Why am I a troll just for quoting from your link Jim?"
Who said you were?


You did Jim when, referring to my posts specifically, you told Steve not to "feed the troll."

Are you now withdrawing the smear?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 08:21 PM

Perhaps enough of them will manage to curb their peevishness and grow up. Stuff about leadership styles is irrelevant, Jeremy Corbyn is the choice of the party, is trusted by the party, and it doesn't matter whether they like him or not. Most of us in the course of our lives have to buckle down and work under bosses we may, rightly or wrongly, not think are up to the job.

If they can't do that they should face reality and resign as MPs, not try to sabotage the settled decision of the membership which makes up the party. Without the Labour Party none of them would have been elected.

Having the shadow cabinet elected by MPs in normal circumstances could work well enough, but when you've got the MPs at daggers drawn to the party's chosen leader it doesn't make sense. As and when these petulant politicos can grow up it might be fair enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:21 PM

There is agreement on the overall policys, I agree, Kevin, but the major theme of the campaign was that it wasn't about policy, in the main, but leadership skills and presentation. I don't fully buy that, since there were quite a lot of differences between what the policy meant in detail, including timing and financial aspects.

But listening to Heidi Alexander today, she was in no mood for anything other than Corbyn ceding the election of the shadow cabinet completely to the PLP for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:15 PM

Surely everybody knows what first rule about responding to trolls? "Don't do it." So why do it?
..................

So far as I can see those hostile to Corbyn within the Labour Party all seem to say that on pretty well all domestic issues they agree with the policies he espouses, which are in no way extreme "hard left".

Insofar as there are differences on foreign policy, notably on whether the retention of Trident is common sense or insanity, these critics should accept that they are out of line with the mass of the Labour Party membership. For a generation those who share Corbyn's position have had to live with the fact that they are out of line with the party on that issue. Now it's the turn of the nuclear suicide bombers to do the same.

There's no rational basis for failing to pull together. That doesn't rule out voting against the party on points of principle, as Corbyn has been attacked for doing (in most cases, if you examine the record, "with the benefit of hindsight" most Labour MPs would probably agree he was right). What it might rule out is stabbing him, in the back. The point being that it's not just Corbyn they would be attacking, it would be the membership who make up the party, including their own constituency party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 03:10 PM

"Why am I a troll just for quoting from your link Jim?"
Who said you were?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:40 PM

Keith, a troll to those two is anyone who posts anything that challenges their ideologies or that they don't want to hear. They are unfamiliar with the concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:32 PM

You think that the government could make shit up and the people who produce the figures not notice?
Hardly, on such an emotive subject.
Anyway, it was in your link.
Why am I a troll just for quoting from your link Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 02:02 PM

So?
What else is the government going to say?
This is about the Labour Party, not how the Establishment justifies a decision taken on racist lines
Bearing your own request in mind - "Yes please."
Don't feed the troll Steve
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 12:41 PM

Jim, from your link,
"The police linked the spike in hate crime incidents immediately after the June referendum directly to the vote, saying people had taken the vote to leave the EU as a licence to behave in a racist or discriminatory way. Offences had been mainly harassment and threats of a racist nature against "visible minorities" as well as people from eastern Europe.

Amber Rudd, the home secretary, went further when she discussed the figures with MPs on the home affairs select committee on Wednesday, saying that the level was back in line with 2015.

"There was a spike in crime after 23 June. I am pleased to say it has now gone back to levels comparable to last year. We are watching it carefully. We will continue to combat hate crime however we can," she told MPs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 12:36 PM

I can see why someone would choose to post anonymously with sick, obsessive stalkers like you around. I would fear for my life if you knew my identity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 11:29 AM

Well you should be feeling bloody uncomfortable with the truths I've just told about you, you charlatan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 09:50 AM

Ah yes, let us not consider inconvenient truths that make us uncomfortable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 09:31 AM

I know forums from which he would be banned or suspended for that intervention alone, let alone for his track record of secret multiple identities, lying and name-calling from behind a wall of anonymity. Still, we'll no doubt get a mod complaining about our insulting behaviour instead, I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 09:21 AM

That's going to further this discussion no end Bobad - well done
I strongly suggest this piece of Trollism be ignored
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 08:47 AM

The media in Iran, a state that supports and funds Islamist and anti-Semitic organizations Hamas, Hezbollah and activities of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, are openly celebrating the victory of Jeremy Corbyn. Exactly the friends the Labour Party wants and Britain needs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:33 AM

A bit under 24 hours, but I think the Tory response is already clear: there have been a quite a lot of references to 172 MPs passing the 'no confidence' vote. If that isn't a major note of the next election campaign, I'd be very surprised. And I can't say I blame them - it is a heck of a thing to try to argue against. Replace all the 172? Long knives and a hard left takeover. Keep them and they vote with Corbyn? All self serving and without conviction. Keep them and they vote against? Party is disunited. Keep them and free vote? No leadership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:19 AM

Jeremy Corbyn

https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/jeremy-corbyn-song


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 10:05 AM

I hope so, too. But all this talk of unity is a bit suspect since it is not clear what is being united around. I have heard quite a few who voted for Owen calling for unity but none I have heard have said they will support Corbyn now. The next few days will be telling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 09:42 AM

Amen to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 08:38 AM

Suppose everybody's out toasting Corbyn's magnificent victory
Let's hope he lives up to the trust that people have put in him and turn Labour back into a genuine alternative party rather than the establishment nodding dog it became.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 09:44 AM

"Can't you?."
Nope
I can see where a group of people who were driven out of the Labour Party when it was distorted in into New Labour by a possible human-rights criminal, a soft-porn journalist and a couple of careerist no-marks, returning in the hope of turning it back into the principled party it once was.
If Corbyn manages it he will have done the country, which at present has a racist as foreign secretary, a great favour - if not, we can look forward to a situation where we continue to drive the refugees from wars we have helped create into the war zones they have fled for their lives from - go count the increasing number of RACIST ATTACKS in Britain.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stanron
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 08:59 AM

We'll know tomorrow. Everyone says he'll win. But that's the same everyone who got the general election results so wrong.

I'm not a Labour supporter, (then again I am over 30) but I can see a bad leader and entry-ism when it dances all over my TV screen.

Can't you?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:44 AM

I agree,Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 03:07 AM

Hopefully Corby will walk it.
I believe that, if he doesn't the Labour Party will have gone the same way the Irish Labour Party has gone.
They threw their lot in with the worst of the other main parties in order to win seats and when the voters rejected the establishment policies, Labour sank like a stone, throwing away decades of progress and hard work.
The level of nastiness and dishonesty by Corbyn's opponents, backed by the sewer press, is a reasonable indication that he might be the new broom needed to clean up the farce that claims to be 'democracy' - inexperienced or not.
Britain doesn't need 'strong leaders' at present - Mussolini and Pinochet were 'strong leaders'.
We need principled and compassionate policies introduced for the well-being of all British people - not juts the already over-privileged.
Fingers crossed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Sep 16 - 02:17 AM

So we get to the eve of the results of the vote and things are looking as many predicted. It seems the only doubt about a Corbyn victory is how large it will be. Owen Smith and last night Liz Kendall on Question Time are both saying how important unity is and they will work for it, while simultaneously refusing to work with Corbyn and making it clear the only unity they are interested in is unifying around the position they hold.

Looks like we continue as we are, then, until candidates are selected for the next election. Unless you think differently?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:45 PM

Yes please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 16 - 01:07 PM

It is perfectly possible to have vehement disagreements without descending into personal abuse, shaming people or exhibiting bullying behaviour. Forcefully made points and criticisms of the political views of others are totally legitimate, personal attacks are not.

Anybody disagree with that quote from the Labour Party's new policy statement on netiquette? I suggest we should try doing it that way for a change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM

Cheap sniping is beneath you.

Mr T? Bwaa-haa-haa-hah-ha-ha!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 12:22 PM

Stop copying bobad. Cheap sniping is beneath you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 10:28 AM

Great pity then Shaw that you don't follow your own advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:24 AM

Sarky my arse. The post was a straightforward suggestion that he checked the facts about what he was going on about before posting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:24 AM

""I got flashbacks to being told off by sarky school teachers." - spot on Stanron - Tell us all Shaw what was it that you used to do?"
I presume this is irony!!
Well done Mr Quelch!!
On to the stupid step with you Shaw Minor
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 09:17 AM

Good explanation of the dispute

"I got flashbacks to being told off by sarky school teachers." - spot on Stanron - Tell us all Shaw what was it that you used to do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 08:56 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: I suggest that you inform yourself before posting.


Why so tetchy Steve? I got flashbacks to being told off by sarky school teachers. There was no suggestion that they were not actually doctors. My point was that in the seventies there were loads of people in the building trade who would have welcomed earning that much overtime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 08:12 AM

So sorry!
Wrong thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 08:02 AM

The Huffington post describes Erdogan as "an elected dictator."
That is not "uninformed" or "a lie" but a view widely held by people who know a lot more about it that you two.

The Guardian,
"The attack on the judiciary is especially worrying in the light of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's contempt for human rights and the rule of law."
That is a description of a dictator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 16 - 07:51 AM

Yes Stanron, they are junior doctors. I strongly suspect from that comment that you don't know what that means. It doesn't mean recently fledged ex-student medics, guys and gals still in in their twenties, apprentices, trainees or probationers. I suggest that you inform yourself before posting.


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