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BS: Labour party discussion

Donuel 08 Jan 17 - 12:13 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 17 - 12:11 PM
Donuel 08 Jan 17 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jan 17 - 04:14 AM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 10:33 PM
Donuel 07 Jan 17 - 07:49 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 17 - 07:00 PM
Stu 07 Jan 17 - 03:51 PM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 03:21 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 17 - 03:19 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 17 - 03:13 PM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 03:07 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 17 - 02:32 PM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 17 - 02:00 PM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jan 17 - 12:45 PM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 10:45 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jan 17 - 10:25 AM
bobad 07 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jan 17 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jan 17 - 07:11 AM
Teribus 07 Jan 17 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jan 17 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 17 - 03:04 PM
Raggytash 06 Jan 17 - 12:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jan 17 - 09:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 17 - 08:28 AM
bobad 06 Jan 17 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 17 - 07:37 AM
Teribus 06 Jan 17 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 17 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jan 17 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 17 - 05:28 AM
Teribus 06 Jan 17 - 05:24 AM
Teribus 06 Jan 17 - 05:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jan 17 - 04:18 AM
Teribus 06 Jan 17 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 17 - 03:15 PM
Teribus 05 Jan 17 - 03:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 17 - 07:26 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jan 17 - 05:59 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM
Teribus 05 Jan 17 - 04:10 AM
Teribus 05 Jan 17 - 03:43 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 12:13 PM

Let play resume.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 12:11 PM

How to play the boring game in this world of desperate need for dommon ground and insight and poor listeners.

First put some personal insults directed at you in quotes.

Second let you ego respond with the bile of your choice.

Third provide "proof" of your wisdom and the cause of your outrage

FOURTH Dismiss or ignore all other perspectives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 11:57 AM

Perhaps you all enjoy the kind of banter one might hear in Parliament squabbling. It is a rhetorical game that requires life long practice beginning in school. Some play the game with wit and wisdom and some do not.

I do not play that game. I am outside of that game. My talents lie elsewhere in a perspective of large time scales, the slow evolution of the human psyche and the ability to allocate intellectual energy more efficiently and productively.

Jim, I do not challenge your facts and observations, I challenge your personal allocation of intellectual energy. You are in danger of becoming a one trick pony stuck in a loop which could make you appear to be an asset to a foreign power which is not your intention.

Let bobad be bobad. I will not blame the gamer, I blame the game
I like the man, I like you. Steve is charming in his friendly egalitarian way. Keith is wise, Teribus is a permanent landmark, Dave is mushy and clever, we are all a good sort. don't you think.
You spent your whole life being you so new perspectives may be slow.

What I see wasted is a great potential for advancement of perspective.

The example of a new perspective is a scientist who wittingly or not made a deadly weapon and decides that research into civil rights and equality science better suited him or her.

That pov change may not suit you but sometimes even a small change can make certain goals less boring and more spot on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 04:14 AM

"Jim, Steve is right."
Not quite sure of your point Donuel ((I assume you mean Bobad)
If you do, he is most certainly not right and never has been.
He claims an equality and democracy for Israel that does not exist, certainly not for non-Jews in todays Israel.
Comparisons with other examples of non-democracy is evasive and stupid.
Israel is now an extremist right wing state which has adopted an ethnic cleansing policy and is rapidly heading for fascism.
Bobad is the last to complain about dredging as he one trawled the web, drawin from the most extremist right-wing, racist sites, to produce one of the largest series of Islamophobic claims I have ever seen on this forum.
His vitriolic hate posts in response to any criticism of Israel that appears- in own antismitic accusation that any criticism of Israel is an attack on The Jewish People, make him the most unpleasant and cowardly poster on this site.
I assume that his slight 'toning down' is due to the fact that he has probably been warned of his behaviour - i he starts up again, I will make every effort to have him removed from this forum.
That is not the behaviour that should be tolerated on a debating site.
As far as I am concerned, the present Israeli regime has betrayed the Jewish people - they have turned the State into a persecutor of Arabs, as the German State became a persecutor of Jews.
I spent my twenties and thirties with Jewish People - all of whom were appalled at what Israel was becoming, even then.
My father fought in Spain alongside Jews who later became freedom fighters for New Israel - some came to his funeral.
I an not prepared to stay silent while a ranting cowardly little shit, from his anonymity, calls me an antisemite every time I express my opinion that these right-wing scum have destroyed the Dream I and my family always treasured.
The links I put up are indicative of what has happened to Israel - a state that is now interfering with British politics in the same way as has been revealed that Russia interfered with American politics.
If you or he believe that they are faked, fin, prove they are.
Do not tell me not to put them up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 10:33 PM

"meaningless."

Totally!


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 07:49 PM

Jim, Steve is right. Constant dredging brings up the muck no matter who you speak of. The US Confederates still want to avenge the South, the Irish are not amnesic, Israel is well aware of the holocaust training that has bred vicious defensiveness for the next 1000 years or more.
Need I mention the American racial strife?

torture and starve your dog and it will turn against you. We all know this already.

Finding ways to promote civil rights bottom up or top down will do more good for both sides. Your forever fruitless arguments will never bring the benefits of defeating even one right wing authoritarian war monster.

The end game is civil rights.

Jus sayin you're stuck in a loop mate.
Obsessing on hate promotes no love and no rights.



My dictator is Trump

All in all, he's just another prick - with a wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 07:00 PM

"meaningless."
About as meaningless as your response
Want some more examples of Israeli equality - just let me know!!
Jim Carr


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 03:51 PM

Halibuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 03:21 PM

One can troll the internet and find the same shit and worse about any country one wishes to demonize - meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 03:19 PM

What on earth does Ireland do with any of this Bobad
I am not Irish, I don't support their politics nor their human rights record
I am an active opponent on their treatment of Travellers
Are you suggesting that because a poor record that it excuses Israel?
You were thew one who brought up thise "equality" bullshit - not me
Pathetic - even by your trollish standards
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 03:13 PM

More Israeeli equality
EDUCATION
EQUALITY of TENURE
HUMILIATION at CHECKPOINTS
PERSUCUTION of PALESTINIAN CHILDREN
ABUSE of PALESTINIAN WOMEN
WOMEN and ELDERLY

ISRAELI SOLDIERS TESTIMONIES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 03:07 PM

IRELAND'S HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD: State looked the other way as citizens suffered
Human Rights Violations in Ireland
Exposing the Gaps in Ireland's Human Rights Record
The UN decided Ireland's abortion law is a violation of human rights
Holding Ireland to account for violations of basic human rights
Ireland will be grilled on its human rights record at the UN today - and it might not be pretty
Human rights violations in the Irish Education system
Migrants face discrimination and assault, report finds
The Experience of Discrimination in Ireland


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 02:32 PM

"One can troll the internet and find the same shit and worse about any country one wishes to demonize - meaningless"
Even the Isareli press reports?
Don't you mean unanswerable?
That's your "equal" Israel Bobad
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 02:27 PM

One can troll the internet and find the same shit and worse about any country one wishes to demonize - meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 02:00 PM

INEQUALITY REPORT
GENDER INEQUALITY
FINANCIAL INEQUALITY
DISCRIMINATORY LAWS
BEDOUINS
RELIGIOUS DIVISIONS
CHRISTIANS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM

Arab citizens in Israel have far higher unemployment, far lower pay, worse career prospects, poorer housing, worse schools, much worse public transport and are subject to random and uncalled-for restriction on movement around the country.

If that is the case there could be many possible reasons for it. Equality of opportunity is not one though as Israel has a law that prohibits the employer from discriminating between job applicants or employees on the following criteria:

    Sex
    Sexual orientation
    Pregnancy
    Fertility treatment
    Parenting
    Age
    Race
    Religion
    Nationality
    Country of origin
    Residence
    Political view
    Reservist duty

Prohibition of discrimination applies to hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment. The law was enacted in 1988,[2] and replaced an earlier 1981 law.[3]

Wikipedia


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 01:25 PM

Incidentally, there is no equality in Israel today.

"Is Israel inherently racist, an apartheid state? Well, do you think that such a country would tolerate a person like myself getting to the position I am today? Forget for a second (BDS supporters would like you to forget permanently!) that 20 percent of Israelis are non-Jewish, have full rights, and are represented throughout society. It's one thing, after all, to have Arab politicians, Christian voters, and Muslim doctors – although we do have them, and quite a few at that.

But a non-Jewish army Major? Someone who has not only fought alongside Jewish soldiers, but now trains them too? Would a truly racist state allow me to play such an integral role in our nation's defenses?"

Major Alaa Waheeb...... Israeli Arab, and the highest ranked Muslim in the IDF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 12:45 PM

Give yourself a breather and stop posting such arrant nonsense. Even Bibi is more worried about the long-term demographics than you are. So am I. It is a recipe for long-term instability and it is going to have to be addressed, whatever current ideology is blinding you to the reality. Incidentally, there is no equality in Israel today. I've posted the details of that more than once before and they are undeniable. Arab citizens in Israel have far higher unemployment, far lower pay, worse career prospects, poorer housing, worse schools, much worse public transport and are subject to random and uncalled-for restriction on movement around the country. Go and look it up for yourself. I'm sick of dredging things up repeatedly to cater for people with cloth ears. I'm making a casserole and I'm busy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM

One state will happen. It might take a hundred years. If it takes just ten, a lot of lives will be saved.

What you are wishing for the Jews is what they had in Germany prior to World War II - sure were a lot of lives saved then, weren't there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 10:45 AM

One day there'll Jews and Arabs living together as equals.

There is that today in Israel.

There will never exist a situation where Jews are a minority in their own country, especially not a minority to a majority whose goal is their annihilation - get used to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 10:25 AM

Putting peace on the table in an impasse means compromise. You can, of course, put peace on the table on entirely your own terms once you've annihilated your enemy. That will never happen. Tiny Israel can keep on grabbing the land and making two states more and more impossible because the might of the US will always be behind them. Either the region is doomed to eternal conflict or there will one day be one state containing, eventually, more Arabs than Jews. If the Jews still want to be in power, they will become totalitarian. That will last no more than several years as western allies evaporate. Israel's claim for western protection as the only "democracy" (sure...) in the region will have lost its validity. If democracy is the goal, then the Jewish state will be no more. The demographics in the region dictate that Israel's continuing presence as a Jewish state is highly artificial. One day there'll Jews and Arabs living together as equals. Sounds good to me.

A two-state solution based on the demands of either side would be extremely unstable. Nothing would be solved. The conflicts would go on and on.

One state will happen. It might take a hundred years. If it takes just ten, a lot of lives will be saved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM

a two-state solution is not viable as long as settlement expansion continues

"It is ludicrous to argue that the settlements are an "obstacle to peace," because they were not an obstacle to offering the Palestinians a state on three separate occasions: (a) in July 2000 at Camp David; (b) in the Clinton Parameters six months later; and (c) in the Olmert offer at the end of the one-year Annapolis Process in 2008. Each time, the Palestinians rejected a state on substantially all of the West Bank and Gaza with a capital in Jerusalem.

The real obstacle, as Michael Mandelbaum showed in his landmark essay in the May 2016 issue of COMMENTARY, "The Peace Process is an Obstacle to Peace," is the Palestinian refusal to accept a Jewish state within any boundaries, much less defensible borders. Until the Palestinians endorse "two states for two peoples"–something the Palestinians have not yet done–the process will be stuck on side issues such as settlements. Until the Palestinians declare that a Palestinian state is an end-of-claims solution, and not simply a step in further prosecuting a specious "right of return," the Palestinians have not even put peace on the table."

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/its-not-the-settlements-stupid/2017/01/04/


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 07:16 AM

Well it didn't work then and it won't work now. Israel's security has long been predicated on the billions per annum in US military aid. And you are refusing to address the point that a two-state solution is not viable as long as settlement expansion continues. It isn't the Palestinians doing that, is it? Are we looking for solutions or are you just going to keep chanting your view of the history and shouting ya-boo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 07:11 AM

"No Rag. I was just correcting an error of fact from Jim."
You've ben given the facts in full
No nation has ever deliberately refused re-entry or forced exile on the people of a conquered nation other than Israel.
That woud have been ethnic cleansing, which is what his happening to the Palestinians


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 07:09 AM

So Shaw you think that due to the unacceptability of the Two State Solution to both sides the conflict will continue. The track record however is that the Jews of Palestine have always been prepared to accept such a solution the track record of the Arabs of Palestine is that they have never found such a compromise.

Your thumbnail sketch - "One rich state with a powerful military next to a much poorer state" - In other words the exact reversal of what the fledgling State of Israel faced in 1948, although their "much poorer state" faced numerous enemies not just one. Israel has advanced as a developed democratic state her former neighbours and enemies are firmly on the path to self-destructi
on.

So the conflict will go on - next time leave them to fight it out to the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 05:09 AM

Rag,
True professor,many Germans were ejected, but as I am sure you were taught at school two wrongs don't make a right.
Or do they in your world?


No Rag. I was just correcting an error of fact from Jim.
"So we shouldhave deposed the entire Geman nation in 1945
Don't be more stupid than you have already shown you are.
No conquering people ahs the right to depose those they have conquered."

Also, Israel was defending against conquest, not engaged in it.

Another stupid comparison which had nothing to do with a conquered people being driven out ot not being allowed to returned, as has happenef in Palestine

Yes. To Jews and Arabs.


"The Expulsion Of The Germans: The Largest Forced Migration In History"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rm-douglas/expulsion-germans-forced-migration_b_1625437.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 03:04 PM

"Actually millions, mostly ethnic Germans, were displaced after WW2."
Another stupid comparison which had nothing to do with a conquered people being driven out ot not being allowed to returned, as has happenef in Palestine
"The removals occurred in three overlapping phases, the first of which was the organized evacuation of ethnic Germans by the Nazi government in the face of the advancing Red Army, from mid-1944 to early 1945.[11] The second phase was the disorganised fleeing of ethnic Germans immediately following the Wehrmacht's defeat. The third phase was a more organised expulsion following the Allied leaders' Potsdam Agreement,[11] which redefined the Central European borders and approved expulsions of ethnic Germans from Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary.[12] Many German civilians were sent to internment and labour camps where they were used as forced labour as part of German reparations to countries in eastern Europe.[13] The major expulsions were complete in 1950.[11] Estimates for the total number of people of German ancestry still living in Central and Eastern Europe in 1950 range from 700,000 to 2.7 million."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 12:29 PM

True professor,many Germans were ejected, but as I am sure you were taught at school two wrongs don't make a right.

Or do they in your world?


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM

Jim,
No conquering people ahs the right to depose those they have conquered.

Actually millions, mostly ethnic Germans, were displaced after WW2.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 09:12 AM

Well. let's look at what two states might look like, Teribus. One rich state with a powerful military next to a much poorer state with one of two conformations: either an Arab state consisting in effect of enclaves within Israel, or a larger Arab state containing Israeli enclaves consisting of the current settlements. The former is completely unacceptable to the Palestinians for obvious reasons. The latter, though under Palestinian sovereignty, would contain clusters of much wealthier non-Arab people who would almost certainly insist on continued separation and who would fuel resentment among the majority Arab population. Two states based on 1967 borders is just never going to happen because Israel never has to give back.

Do you really think you can blame the Palestinians for not having the appetite for either scenario? Or the ordinary Israeli people, for that matter? How can you possibly deny that current Israeli policy is doing anything other then making a two-state solution less and less viable? Obsessively blaming Palestinians for walking away from a two-state solution is just absurd. The Israeli regime want it even less than the Palestinians, otherwise they wouldn't be doing things that, plain as the nose on your face, militate against it.

We can go on as now for ever, enduring conflict after conflict. Or we will end up with a single state in which the demographic will develop in a way that Israel will see as threatening. Israel would have to choose between ditching democracy or ditching the Jewish state. It will come to that because Israel's short-sighted leaders are making anything else impossible. They are acting against the long-term interests of their own people. One fine day the people might actually wake up to it and see that trying to be good neighbours might be better all round.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM

Should have been 100 4x4's of course but it is no 100 4x4's plus a unicycle...


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 08:28 AM

10 4x4's!

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 08:13 AM

If anyone thinks that the "Palestinian" leadership have any desire to negotiate for an independent homeland for the Arabs in Judea and Samaria they are seriously deluded. One only has to read the constitution of Fatah to see what their true goals are. The Israeli leadership is 100% correct when they say that there is no partner to negotiate with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 07:37 AM

The Israelis ahve refused to return land and refused to consider refugees returning
How can any "so called leadership" consider such an illegal position that entails such a situation?
The fact that you refuse to respond to this makes it clear that you are aware of that fact.
Whatever the Arab leadership is like, it is imminently preferable to one adopting an ethnich cleansing policy and attempting to set up an
APARTHEID STATE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 07:16 AM

Steve Shaw:

"The fact is, Teribus, whether you like it or not, successive Israeli regimes have worked inexorably AGAINST a two-state solution"

The fact is, Shaw, whether you like it or not, since the Khartoum Conference of 1967 the Arabs of the region, and in saying that I mean their so-called leaders, have never had any intention, or interest, in pursuing anything that would deliver a "Two State Solution".


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 06:19 AM

"They have consistently chosen war "
To defend their land from usurpation and the right for those driven into exile to return.
It takes a great deal of courage to continue for an impoverished State with a poorly armed untrained and ill equipped army,to fight a well armed (to the extent of nuclear) nation permanently protected from war crime charges by U.s. vetoes, for the right of access to what is theirs by birth and heritage.
It takes no courage at all to continue to oppress that State.
David and Goliath writ large
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 05:55 AM

If "Palestinians" are an invention then what are "Israelis?"

The fact is, Teribus, whether you like it or not, successive Israeli regimes have worked inexorably AGAINST a two-state solution, making it near-impossible to envisage an Arab state with contiguous land, by annexing large parcels of the West Bank for settlements. Negotiation means giving way to some extent. Compromise. The Palestinians may seem to you to be uninterested in a two-state solution, but that is because they know that compromise is never on the table. All talks have been a sham. Settlement land will remain settlement land. Why would Israel give any back, let alone stop taking even more? No need when you have the US behind you unconditionally. The abstention from the resolution, hardly unprecedented as I've shown, is no more than a mild warning shot across the bows. The US will never stop the military aid to Israel. AIPAC and co. will see to that. Israel only gives land back either in return for a sell-out to the West, as with Egypt, or because it's a basket case, as with Gaza. And the latter was hardly "giving it back" with good grace, was it? Seem to remember that they sent in the bulldozers first, then blockaded the whole place...


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 05:28 AM

"Golda Meir was right on both counts -"
Arabs have occupied that land for millenia
" they chose war and they lost."
So we shouldhave deposed the entire Geman nation in 1945
Don't be more stupid than you have already shown you are.
No conquering people ahs the right to depose those they have conquered.
The stealing of land is still happening - that's what the UN condemnation is about.
"And they have given almost all of it back in return for peace."
January is a bit early for cuckoos, isn't it?
im Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 05:24 AM

"Predictions by the Treasury ahead of the Brexit vote have been brought into question by a study which says that leaving the European Union will halve net migration, give British workers a pay rise and help to solve the housing crisis.

The report from the Centre for Business Research at the University of Cambridge examined the possible future scenarios following the referendum decision to leave the EU."


Didn't Akenaton mention something similar - months ago? Carney has admitted that the Bank of England got it wrong as did the Treasury under George Osborne's prompting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 05:02 AM

Golda Meir was right on both counts - The "Palestinians" were invented by Yasser Arafat - Purely technically the Jews of Palestine are as much "Palestinians" as the Arabs of Palestine.

The Jews did not build or create refugee camps, what they did do was accept and take in over 820,000 Jews from Arab countries and allowed them to assimilate into the fabric of the Jewish State of Israel to become full citizens with a full stake in the future of THEIR country.

In 1947 the Arabs of Palestine had a choice - they chose war and they lost. They have consistently chosen war ever since and they have equally consistently lost. At some point THEY must wake up to the fact that they have to accept the consequences of and bear responsibilities of THEIR actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM

thanks to Israeli predatory land-grabbing,

They only occupied land taken while fighting off predatory land grabbers!
And they have given almost all of it back in return for peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 04:18 AM

"No refugee camps in Israel Jim."
Who said there was?
Not me.
Doesn't alter the fact that, thanks to Israeli predatory land-grabbing, Palestinians make up the largest group of deposed refugees on the planet and their continuing action stands to add to that figure, should they be allowed to continue further.
The Egyptians and Jordanians, not a particularly wealthy people, "saw fit" to give some of these refugees shelter - as you rightly say, Israel never saw fit to extend that hand of charity to those they made homeless.
Having stolen the land, it would have been ludicrous for them to have done so.
As Golda Meir put it so succinctly on several occasions:
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."
Golda Meir Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 02:48 AM

No refugee camps in Israel Jim.

Egyptians and Jordanians, latterly "Palestinians" saw fit to herd fellow Arabs, "Palestinians" at that, into camps in 1948 on "Palestinian" land and make sure they stayed there in poverty and a state of hopelessness.

I also think IIRC that there was some mention of 4th June 1967 "borders" in UNSCR 2334, as well as restraint, control and negotiation. One of Steve Shaw's contentions has been that Israel has never had to negotiate because of it's alliance with the USA, well one perception now might be that that has changed and that Israel is being forced to negotiate, the Arabs of "Palestine" and by that I mean their leaders however will not as they have no interest in negotiation and their backers will not permit them to. Any negotiation will be seen as a betrayal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 03:15 PM

It maintains the status quo regarding refugees and land already lost.
No responsible government would ever agree to that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 03:12 PM

Looking back down through the thread I am amazed that none of those so keen to praise the adoption of UNSCR 2334 see that in it the UN's support and promotion of a "Two State Solution" which means recognition by PNA and Hamas of the Sovereign State of Israel. We all know that that is not going to happen. UNSCR 2334 does not solely constrain the Israeli Government it also makes demands and imposes constraints on the Arabs of Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:26 AM

Jim,
suggesting that criticism of Israel is "antisemitic"?

No-one here has ever done that Jim. What is your point?

The Israeli regime has accused Jewish opposition to its policies as being by "self-hating" or "self-loathing Jews" - the very term is antisemitic by nature.

Ridiculous. Of course they don't. The opposition parties and free media constantly criticise its policies.

as far as this forum is concerned, we have the suggestion that there is a Jewish pact of silence in Parliament which has kept the details of the claimed antisemitism of the Labour Party from the eyes of the public 'for the love of the party'.

Are you sure? I never saw it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 05:59 AM

If my great-great anybody was Jewish, native Australian or Chinese I doubt that I would know and I definitely wouldn't give a fig. I have a feeling that I'm not descended from that race of aliens on Saturn because they have seven legs and I only have two (at last count). Yes I do think that conspiracy theories about Jews taking over banks, businesses and the media are antisemitic and, like Jim, I have never subscribed to them. Anyway, Tunesmith, I can't find anything about Murdoch being of Jewish descent, and I really don't care one way or the other. Whatever else he is, he's a complete twat. That's all I need to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM

"And yes DtG perhaps those who flagrantly ignore the IHRA Working Definition should be reported to the police"
Does that include all those who accuse The Jewish People of being responsible for the atrocities of the Israeli regime by suggesting that criticism of Israel is "antisemitic"?
That, I believe is a breach of one of the items in the definition.
So far we have had a very much pick--'n-mix approach by supporters of the regime.
The Israeli regime has accused Jewish opposition to its policies as being by "self-hating" or "self-loathing Jews" - the very term is antisemitic by nature.
It is also classic fascism - placing the acrtions of the state ovr the opinions and wishes of the people.
Nearer to home, as far as this forum is concerned, we have the suggestion that there is a Jewish pact of silence in Parliament which has kept the details of the claimed antisemitism of the Labour Party from the eyes of the public 'for the love of the party'.
Claims of Jewish plots where one of of the weapons used to send six million Jews to their deaths.
Would we really like a member of this forum reported to the police?
This discussion has taken an extremely nasty and dangerous turn.
I don't know how many Jews make up our financial establishment, I don't care and I never have.
Discussing the beliefs and nationalities of those who exploit us should never be part of these debates - it is totally irrelevant - our businesses and financial institutions are now international and multi-cultural and have been for a long time.
Please leave it out.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 04:10 AM

Keith Rupert Murdoch:

"Australian Jews.... Hmmmm. Give us a minute here. Billionaire mogul Rubert Murdoch, maybe?

Well, it depends on who you believe. According to some out there, Rubert's great-great-grandmother, Caroline Jemima Sherson, was Jewish. But considering that research found that the young Jemima was baptized before she was one year old, we highly doubt those first-mentioned sources." - Source: Jew or Not Jew Website. Their Verdict Rupert Murdoch: Not a Jew


Hope that clears that one up once and for all.

And yes DtG perhaps those who flagrantly ignore the IHRA Working Definition should be reported to the police...... Perhaps tireless fighter against anti-Semitism Jim Carroll could take care of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 03:43 AM

Tunesmith - 04 Jan 17 - 08:31 AM

"The British press is the main obstacle to Labour - and Jeremy - being elected!
Now the British national press is totally owned by Jewish businessmen.


An anti-Semitic post from Tunesmith according to the IHRA Working definition of Anti-Semitism adopted formally and recognised by the UK Government:

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

On even a cursory examination Tunesmith's post is also factually incorrect.


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