BS: Labour party discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 07:26 AM

So a drop of 15% in the value of the pound must be OK then.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

On forum behaviour, the two people making the most noise are almost always the authors of spittle flecked diatribes containing the usual charges of bigotry xenophobia and racism.

Hear! Hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 07:52 AM

"So a drop of 15% in the value of the pound must be OK then
And the closure to traffic across Europe and slamming the employment door on British people unable to find work back home, ad the economic uncertainty that is predicted to last for a decade (just what the economy needs) - not to mention the large increase in RACIST HATE CRIMES
Icebrg - what iceberg?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:27 AM

"Free vote insisted upon by Wilson in the 1975 first ever UK wide referendum, the constitutional precedent of abandoning collective cabinet responsibility."

Well I agree absolutely. Your last phrase also perfectly describes the recent one too, doesn't it?

"Let's twist again..." 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:45 AM

Too many noises off... While we might not admire Ukip's roughhousing, the reported words of Mr Woolfe "Right you, outside now" might perhaps be a better way of acting out than carrying on in-house.
.................

Whatever Len McCluskey might say, the MPs sponsored by Trades Unions are not "owned" by Trades Unions, and don't follow their orders - as was demonstrated when MPs sponsored by unions backing Jeremy Corbyn (in keeping with the way TU rank and file members voted in the selection ballot) joined in the unsuccessful coup.

British Trades Unions do not have the built in safeguards for their members which German Trades Unions have, thanks to the impact of British Trades Unions on the constitutional rebuilding of Germany. So called "reforms" of the law over the years relating to Trades Unions have overwhelmingly been hostile to unions. Increasingly governments have seen unions as enemies, to be ground down and excluded from any role as partners.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 01:50 PM

"So a drop of 15% in the value of the pound must be OK then

No, but higher growth than any other G7 member, and record low unemployment is.

Re Chakrabarti's new job, a Jewish view,

Board of Deputies Vice President Marie van der Zyl ,
"We are disappointed, but sadly unsurprised, that once again Shami Chakrabarti and Jeremy Corbyn have spectacularly undermined her so-called 'independent' report.

"We hoped her report would be a potent weapon in the fight against antisemitism.

"It now looks increasingly like the whitewash was a job application.

"She has sold out the Jewish community".

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 02:02 PM

Troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 02:48 PM

"Marie van der Zyl"
There goes that Israel/BDS/"Antisemitism link again!!
"Speaking following the event, which was attended by councillors and council chief executives from across the country and political spectrum, van der Zyl said: "Last summer was a real wake up call to the community establishment when it comes to the link between rising antisemitism and delegitimisation of Israel. I'm delighted to be part of the Board at a time when it's repositioning itself as being as the forefront in the fight against BDS on a national and local level. With the best public affairs team in the community and our unique reach with our deputies, we are well placed to ensure that the Jewish community's voice on these crucial issues does not go unheard."
So far, none of these people have described anything that faintly resembles Antisemitism - everything is directly traceable back to Israeli propaganda to stop the Boycott pf Israeli goods.
The latest stunt in suggesting that other victims of the Holcaust should be remembers is "Antisemitic" just about scraped the bottle of the barrel - except for those who support Israel's becoming a fully fledged Apartheid state, of course.
What is this Antisemitism these people are banging on about, and who are the lorra-lorra people who are involved in it?
no crime - no criminal
No attacks on the Jewish People as an ethnic or cultural group - no Antisemitism.
Doesn't get more simple than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:05 PM

I am bemused, to say the least, to think that anyone can consider a fall in the value of the pound of 15% is anything but drastic.

The forecast is that the pound will drop even further perhaps to parity with the Euro.

This of course will eventually effect everyone.

Especially the less well off who will still have buy imported products such as food.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:13 PM

I am also bemused that someone who purports to be intelligent can have so little knowledge of the financial markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:17 PM

He's baiting us, Jim. Can't let it drop. We've done it to death. We know what kinds of "sources" he throws up that he must spend all day desperately fishing around for. I can't bear this constant demonisation of Shami Chakrabarti. She has more integrity, proven down the years, in her little finger than Keith, bobad and the whole dishonest and disreputable criticising-Israel-is-automatically-antisemitic brigade rolled up together. I think it's great that a person of her sinew has made a rapid rise in the party. They don't criticise John Major, do they, who was Tory prime minister in no time after doing next to bugger all.   I'm sick of discussing it, frankly, and they've had their moment (months actually) in the sun in that now-extinguished toxic thread that Keith started with malevolent intent. I know it's tempting to keep wading in, but there are plenty of other facets of the Labour Party we could be discussing without constantly being hijacked back to that dead duck. Just my take, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM

The fall in the pound is just one sign that the world has no confidence in the disastrous decision we've just taken (well, a decision that less than 38% of the electorate took anyway). Yes I find it hard to take and I'm going to have to put up with it. Not like the Teribus/proto-UKIP axis, who never accepted the far more decisive 1975 vote, eh? Never stopped carping and briefing against it ever since. Yep, we were lied to then. Of course, no-one lied to us this time, did they? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 03:34 PM

Chin Up Steve !

Some of us, the lucky one's, have made a killing.

In the past 3 months the value of my recently purchased property in Ireland has increased in Sterling value by about 25% added to this is the increase in property values in Ireland as a result of Brexit.

I'm looking at a 30% profit if I choose to sell.

It's the old story ........... I'm alright Jack F**k you.

Except that some of us don't see things like that. I'd much rather to have made no increase if the general population where better off.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 04:28 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 02:02 PM

Troll.


Nothing at all trollish about Keith's post of the comments made by Board of Deputies Vice President Marie van der Zyl. You just don't like to hear anything that refutes your biased position - it's the la-la-la-fingers-in-the-ears syndrome, trying to silence someone with whom you disagree. This is what those of your politic stripe do. You are the troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 05:08 PM

What sort of odds do you think you could get on the pound being the same value as the euro by this time next year?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 05:17 PM

Or this time next month.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:06 PM

By December there will be parity, or near as dammit. The pound will recover slightly in the New Year. Possibly to the level it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 08:13 PM

At the start of this week I could get my euros through Caxton at nearly 1.13. Today it's 1.08. I was buying them at 1.40 a few short months ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 16 - 09:55 PM

It'll be ironic if Brexit means that our currency in effect becomes a version of the Euro...

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 02:58 AM

Raggytash - 07 Oct 16 - 03:34 PM

"Chin Up Steve !

Some of us, the lucky one's, have made a killing."

Same therefore applies to British foreign investments then doesn't it Raggy, which are a damned sight more "liquid" than your house in Ireland, which Raggy is only actually worth what someone is prepared to pay you for it if and when you come to sell, having sold, if you want to remain in Ireland, you have to buy into the same market that you sold to.

I've got my chin up too Raggy, my two foreign pensions have increased in value by 25% as well.

Currency fluctuates, but as someone else has pointed out, our growth indicators are all much healthier than those of the Eurozone and no Kevin the £ Sterling will never be a version of anything, because it is an independent currency, we are not shackled to "What is right for Germany, is right for Europe" - The Greeks were and look what happened to them, had they still retained the Drachma their "crisis" would never have been so painful.

Brexit was carried by "Traditional Labour Votes" get used to it, and both sides massaged their figures in presenting their argument to the British electorate, but the arguments put forward by the "leave" campaign were obviously more telling. By the way I voted for membership of the EEC in both 1973 and 1975 foolishly believing we were securing the country's place in a trading partnership. I most certainly would have voted no had it been put to me that 60% of our laws would be dictated to us by an unelected, unaccountable, corrupt and hopelessly inefficient bureaucracy, that for some reason to do with placating the French has to shift offices continually between Strasbourg and Brussels for four days every month at tremendous and totally unnecessary cost. The MEPs have voted to shut it down, but all national governments have to agree, so the French have vetoed the action voted for by the European Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:54 AM

"Same therefore applies to British foreign investments then doesn't it Raggy,"
Which benefits only the wealthy of Britain and leaves the rest of us in the shit
Your personal attitude sums up the "ding-ding, I'm on the bus" society we live in perfectly - which is why it needs changing - it is designed for the wealthy at the expense of the less well off.
For this, you would happily deprive the unemployed of European jobs.
Brexit was pushed through on a racist ticket - foreigners taking British jobs - little wonder that it won some of the less caring 'traditional Labour Votes" when you consider what the Right has done to the Labour Party in making it a part of Britain' "me-me-me" society.
As good a reason as any that Labour needs changing and disinfecting - hopefully Corbyn has the conscience and the balls to clean up that particular Augean Stable.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 04:48 AM

"Which benefits only the wealthy of Britain and leaves the rest of us in the shit" - Jim Carroll

Is that what you "feel" Jim? Or is that what you "think"? Or is that what you "know"?

Any idea how pensions get paid Jim? Not state pensions but ones companies and their employees pay into. The money goes into a company pension fund and that gets invested, if they didn't do this then the pension scheme is unsustainable. So tell me Jim taking into account the vast sums invested by those pension funds and Insurance Companies who then pay out to the likes of you and me do they fit into your category of "only the wealthy"?

The Government doesn't have to do that because it has the tax payer to rely on and fund them. Besides they can always "rob Peter to pay Paul" if in trouble knowing that they then enact legislation to raise more revenue. Unfortunately their easiest way of doing this is by increasing what they call "indirect" taxation as "direct" taxation in the form of income tax accounts for only a minute percentage of the money Government needs and by increasing "indirect" taxation everybody gets nailed.

"For this, you would happily deprive the unemployed of European jobs."


Actually I don't employ anybody and I am not depriving anybody of anything - happily or otherwise.

But here a couple of "facts" should be tossed into the ring.

More people from the EU work in the UK than UK nationals work in the EU. The figures according to the BBC are as follows:

UK nationals working in the EU = 1.33 million
Nationals from EU living and working in the UK = 2.9 million

That last figure has more than doubled in the last 10 years having gone up from 758,000 in 2006 to 2,900,000 today.

Figures for those from overseas and not from EU countries has remained fairly steady over the same period.

As to depriving the UK's unemployed of jobs in Europe - Sounds very much like you are advocating a "get on your bike" solution there Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:05 AM

Steve, I am discussing the labour Party as per the thread title.
You respond by calling me names. "Troll" this time.
Just rant. No reason.
Jim,
What is this Antisemitism these people are banging on about, and who are the lorra-lorra people who are involved in it?
no crime - no criminal
No attacks on the Jewish People as an ethnic or cultural group - no Antisemitism.

Again you just demonstrate that you, like Steve, are incapable of recognising antisemitism.
You claimed that Shah had not made antisemitic comments.
Her antisemitism was recognised by the NEC, the Party leadership, Corbyn and Shah herself, but denied by you two.

You just do not see it even when your faces are rubbed in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:19 AM

"Again you just demonstrate that you, like Steve, are incapable of recognising antisemitism."
And you apparently are incapable of describing it - you haven't so far
Until you do 'nuff said, I think
"Or is that what you "know"?"
What I know, of course _ I may o longer live in Britain but I have family there
Of course I know how pensions are paid - what an incredibly condescending and stupid question
I wpaid into on for half a century and am the recipient of a Britishj one, as meagre as it is.
Your ory idiocy apparently knows no bounds
You have yet to address on single relevant point - uneployment, incrasing inequality, th rise in racism - all carefuly skated around - as you people always do with your support of the better off ad the establishment
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:21 AM

BBC just 15 hours ago,

"Ms Butler (the new shadow minister for diverse communities,) was later asked on BBC Radio 5 live whether her diverse communities brief included the Jewish community.
She said: "Yes, I hope so," adding: "As you know, it's a new brief, so we are still kind of looking at what it will include in its entirety."
Later she said she would be talking to the Jewish community about their concerns about anti-Semitism in the party.

"But the decision to promote Baroness Chakrabarti, who became a Labour peer shortly after holding an inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and concluding that it was "not overrun" by racism, was met with some criticism from Jewish groups.
Board of Deputies Vice President Marie van der Zyl said: "We are disappointed, but sadly unsurprised, that once again Shami Chakrabarti and Jeremy Corbyn have spectacularly undermined her so-called 'independent' report. We hoped her report would be a potent weapon in the fight against anti-Semitism. It now looks increasingly like the whitewash was a job application." "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37584531

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:25 AM

And you apparently are incapable of describing it - you haven't so far

I am not a Labour insider. I just quote them. They should know enough about it, and certainly more than us.
Likewise the Jewish people who are at the sharp end of the abuse, who you just dismiss as part of a conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:26 AM

You are trolling because we have done this death, we get nowhere with the likes of you even after months of squabble, you had your toxic thread closed and now you're trying to bring it over here. You have an agenda and have no intention of debating this issue fairly. All you're doing is trying to get a reaction, and you're hoping that your non-debating sidekick will chime in. That is the very definition of trolling. That is not name-calling. It is an accurate description of you and your disreputable behaviour. If you manage to stoke that fire all over again in this thread it will be closed. Now you really don't deserve that explanation, but there you have it. That I'd love that to wbe the last word on it really, but we all know you and we all know it won't be.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 05:28 AM

Huh. "I'd love that to be..."

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:13 AM

"I am not a Labour insider. I just quote them"
No you don't - you just illude to what the por-Israelis claim
If you are going to accuse anybody of Antisemitism you need to tell us what they are guilty of not what somebody else has said
You've done this before, with cultural implants and your ****** historians
I don't know about Antisemitism - you have no idea of baic British justice works
MAKE YOUR ACCUSATION - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HEARSAY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 06:46 AM

For the record Keith
"Full Definition of anti–Semitism
Hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
Merriam Dictionary
It does not include criticism of Israeli terrorism
It does not include suggesting that Israeli good are boycotted because of their acts of mass murder and persecution
It does not even include suggesting that Gypsies and Jehovah's witnesses be actively acknowledged and remembered during Holocaust day
It is directly aimed at the denigration and persecution of the Jewish People as a whole.
You wouldn't describe exposing a Jewish pedophile, rapist or mass murderer as "antisemitism" - or would you?
Exposing the Israeli regime for the criminals they are and seeking to make them stop economically is not "antisemitism" - yet the Isreali regime and its supporters claim it is
To the Israeli Justice Minister, all criticism of Israel is Santisemitic - she said so publicly.
The Israeli fanatics are the biggest antisemites around - the describe their own crimes as being committed by the Jewish People and claim to be carrying them out on behalf of the Jewish People - that is antisemitism on a world-wide scale.
They describe Jews, in Israel and outside who criticise their policies as "self-hating Jews" - that is no different that the Nazis who tortured, gassed and shot German opponents of their political policies.
Even an Israeli high ranking General and an ex head of Mossad was brave enough to state that.
The hundreds of Holocaust survivors and their relatives who signed a petition comparing the Israeli regime to the Nazis said the same thing.
Now - what is this Labour Party Antisemitism, if it isn't criticism of Israel?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

Since most Tories voted for Brexit and most Labour supporters voted against it, it,s a bit much for Teribus to say the victory for Brexit was down to Labour voters bolting. If it had gone the other way I suppose he'd blame the minority pf Tories who voted for Remain...

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 09:27 AM

Jim Carroll - 08 Oct 16 - 06:13 AM

"I am not a Labour insider. I just quote them" - Keith A of Hertford

No you don't - you just illude to what the por-Israelis claim

Naz Shah is pro-Israeli?

She actually admitted that her statements and views were anti-Semitic due to her ignorance and lack of knowledge. Now then Mr.Carroll are you really going to tell us that you know better about what Naz Shah said than the lady herself?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 09:35 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 08 Oct 16 - 08:53 AM

"Since most Tories voted for Brexit and most Labour supporters voted against it"

And this you get from where? Do you "feel" it? "Think" it? Or "Know" it?

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 09:49 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/world/europe/for-britains-brexit-bunch-the-party-just-ended.html

LONDON — For those blithely inclined toward the view that Britain would somehow find a way to sever its relationship with the European Union free of drama or financial consequences — like canceling a car rental reservation, with a tad more paperwork — Friday was a sobering day of reckoning. The British pound was down about 17 percent — around 25 cents — since June 23, the day Britain voted to abandon Europe.

More than anything, though, the precipitous drop seemed to attest to an increasingly unmistakable reality: Britain's vote to exit the European Union — Brexit, in common parlance — has put its commercial relationships with the world on uncertain and potentially perilous ground.

The week began with an admission from Britain's new Conservative prime minister, Theresa May, that access to the European market is likely to be a casualty of Britain's pursuit of a primary aspiration expressed in the Brexit vote: imposing limits on immigration.

But Brexiteers had steadfastly maintained the illusion that Britain could have it both ways — that it could retain access to the European market while still controlling immigration. In destroying that idea, the prime minister's admission badly rattled the markets.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 10:47 AM

"Naz Shah is pro-Israeli?"
Of course not, who said she was?
She made an ill-worded statement which was viewed as antitisemitic -it wasn't - it attacked Israel, suggesting that it "relocates to the USA" - an attack on Israel, not the Jewish people. She apologised and was re-admitted into the Labour party, as she should have been "
In contrition, she now says:
"Antisemitism is manifestly real and exists within the Labour party, as it does within British society. The surge of new members – the party now has more than half a million – will no doubt reflect that."
Who could argue with that - I said the same at the beginning of the discussion?
Antisemitism is the oldest form of prejudice and exists at every level of society and certainly in every political Party."
She may have admitted that her statement was antisemitic - she is a politician who wishes to remain in the Labour Party.
Her statement was aimed at the Israeli regime and its supporters in the U.S. - not the Jewish People as a whole.
As far as I am concerned, what she said may have been over the top and badly worded, but its contents contained nothing antisemitic, or, if it was, it was far less so than the Israelis own statements, which claim that their policy is Jewish, is carried out on behalf of the Jewish People, and to criticise than policy is antisemitic.
She is one individual in a party of over half-a-million members.
If what she said is the worst any Labour Party member has said, it doesn't amount to a major problem; in my opinion, it certainly doesn't amount to Antisemitism.
You people have grabbed this one issue like a couple of rabid dogs grabbing a bone - you have not stated what this antisemitism is, you have not said how many people it involves and you have taken the fact that the Labour Party has acted responsibly they have taken this, as they should, seriously - - you have deliberately misinterpreted it as an admission of guilt - it is no such thing.
Back in May, the Tory party was accused of Islamophobia and an urgent enquiry was demanded - no action was taken.
It is particularly significant that the individual who caused these accusations to be made is a leading Conservative figure and the son of multi-billionaire, Sir James Goldsmith - mustn't strangle the golden goose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:11 AM

"She made an ill-worded statement which was viewed as antitisemitic" - Jim Carroll

Yes Jim she did and that ill-worded statement was recognised as being anti-Semitic by the lady herself and yes she did apologise for having made it - you are attempting to tell this forum that the statement was only viewed as being anti-Semitic by others it wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: bobad
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

It does not include criticism of Israeli terrorism
It does not include suggesting that Israeli good are boycotted because of their acts of mass murder and persecution

More vicious lies whose sole purpose is to demonize a country and it's people - a classic example of virulent anti-Semitism from one of our resident Jew haters.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:23 AM

"Britain's vote to exit the European Union — Brexit, in common parlance — has put its commercial relationships with the world on uncertain and potentially perilous ground."

How? In what way has what has happened to the pound, which immediately rebounded, has it put Britain's "commercial relationships with the world on uncertain and potentially perilous ground"? Our exports are now cheaper, inward investment gets a bigger bang for it's buck. explain the increasing value of our stock market and the fact that every other economic indicator is trending to the positive. UK's will be the best performing economy in the West next year. We will soon be free to negotiate our own trade deals with the world while the EU still has to flounder about getting the total agreement of 27 member states before putting pen to paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:27 AM

Obama and his administration a whole buncha Anti-Semites:

United States Criticizes Israel Over West Bank Settlement Plan

By MARK LANDLEROCT. 5, 2016

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration on Wednesday castigated the Israeli government for approving plans to create a new Jewish settlement on the West Bank, three weeks after it signed a lucrative military aid package with the United States and just as President Obama was traveling to Jerusalem for the funeral of Shimon Peres.

In an uncommonly harsh statement, the State Department "strongly condemned" the move, asserting that it violated Israel's pledge not to construct new settlements and ran counter to the long-term security interests Israel was seeking to protect with the military deal, which provides $38 billion in assistance over the next decade.

The new settlement, one of a string of housing complexes that threaten to bisect the West Bank, is designed to house settlers from a nearby illegal outpost, Amona, which an Israeli court has ordered demolished.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/06/world/middleeast/obama-israel-west-bank-settlements.html

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

"Yes Jim she did and that ill-worded statement was recognised as being anti-Semitic by the lady herself and yes she did apologise for having made it"
As I said, she is a politician - on the basis of what she actually said, it was a badly worded piece of rhetoric attacking the Israeli regime and its U.S. supporters - it does no compare with the use that regime is making of the Jewish People in defence of its own fascist policies.
It's interesting to note that this is the only bone you pack have - one statement by one Labour Party member
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

Are you intending to comment on the Conservative Party's failure to respond the way the Labour Party has to similar accusations?
Don't suppose so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:46 AM

UK's will be the best performing economy in the West next year.

Says NostraTerribamus.

Time will tell............

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM

Jim, it is OK to be pro-Israel.
Even Steve is pro-Israel.
Being pro-Israel does not mean that your views on antisemitism should be discarded.

"I am not a Labour insider. I just quote them"
No you don't -

I certainly do! I have quotede numerous lifelong Labour members including Corbyn himself and the entire NEC who all agree that there HAS been antisemitism in Labour.

Steve,
You are trolling because we have done this death,

No. You and Jim still deny there is even an issue, so it is perfectly reasonable to put hard evidence in front of you showing that it is not.
The BBC and other media outlets treat it as not just an issue, but a live, current issue so why should anyone take any notice of your denials and name calling?

Jim,
If you are going to accuse anybody of Antisemitism you need to tell us what they are guilty of not what somebody else has said

I have told you what Shah said, but Labour will not reveal all the stuff it is aware of so I can't tell you.

MAKE YOUR ACCUSATION - EVERYTHING ELSE IS HEARSAY

It is hearsay. I am telling you what prominent Labour insiders including the leadership and the entire NEC have said. Why would they lie?
Why should anyone listen to your denials in the face of all that?

Antisemitism,
It does not include criticism of Israeli terrorism

Of course it does not. Who claimed it?
It does not include suggesting that Israeli good are boycotted

Of course it does not. Who claimed it?

It does not even include suggesting that Gypsies and Jehovah's witnesses be actively acknowledged and remembered during Holocaust day

No, but to deny that they are to slander the Jews as only caring about their own suffering could well be antisemitism.

You wouldn't describe exposing a Jewish pedophile, rapist or mass murderer as "antisemitism" - or would you?

Of course not. Who claimed it?

Exposing the Israeli regime for the criminals they are and seeking to make them stop economically is not "antisemitism" - yet the Isreali regime and its supporters claim it is

No they do not. Just that antisemites would support such action.

To the Israeli Justice Minister, all criticism of Israel is Santisemitic - she said so publicly.

No she did not. I quoted her actual words. She pointed out that antisemites now can't openly criticise Jews so they attack Israel. Of course they do. That does not mean that all critics of Israel are antisemites.

They describe Jews, in Israel and outside who criticise their policies as "self-hating Jews"

They do not. Israel incorporates criticism in its constitution. It has a free media that criticise it every day and an opposition whose job is to criticise the government. If only its neighbours had the same!

Her (Shah's) statement was aimed at the Israeli regime and its supporters in the U.S

Really? Which bit was that? Quote please, or did you just make it up?

It's interesting to note that this is the only bone you pack have - one statement by one Labour Party member

If it was just that, we would not still be discussing it, but there are statements from numerous, long standing members, from the entire NEC and from the leadership.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 11:52 AM

Greg,
UK's will be the best performing economy in the West next year.
Says NostraTerribamus.
Time will tell............

It is already the best performing economy in the EU and the G7!
We have the highest growth, and record low unemployment that other EU states can only dream of.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 12:18 PM

I am bloody sick of this. You lot are welcome to this rancid and now-pointless thread. The trolls have won - not the argument, but the destruction of debate. We have a scumbag who should have been thrown out of here years ago back with his "Jew hater" bile. I honestly don't know how you can carry on like it. I really did try.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 01:01 PM

Talk to me next year, Professor Nostradamus.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

"Jim, it is OK to be pro-Israel."
Of course it is Keith - I'm pro Israel as were my parents.
My uncle Jerry as an officer, was on of the soldiers who first entered the death camps at the end of the war - my parents and grandparents took part in the Anti Mosley opposition - two of them were arrested for doing so.
That is why I am so vehement about the shower of killers who are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews
The Israeli monsters are using the Jewish People and the Holocaust to defend mass murder and human rights abuses - this is what you are defending.
"who all agree that there HAS been antisemitism in Labour."
Nobody has ever denied there has - even thje ladtyy accused of Antismitism has said thi - but she pointed out that this is a feature of life in Britain and is a feature of all political aprties - you have sought to make it exclusively Labour and a major problem - it is neither
"No. You and Jim still deny there is even an issue,"
If it is an "issue" - it is a British issue not a Labout one.
Labour is by instinct an policy anti racist - the Labour Party was created with the support of Emigré Jews - the tiny handful that you have attempted to make into a Mount Everest are an out-of-step anomaly, however many there are.
Islamophobia is written into Tory Policy and is being maliciously ignored, by you and by yout Conservative friends.
You have yet to come anywhere close to describing this so-called antisemitism or how many are involved.
Yu have been told how seriosly Laboutr has dealt with the accusations and you have maliciously twisted it into an admission of guilt

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 02:23 PM

Channel 4 News tonight. (Still chance to see it on 4+1 or the Channel 4 Player)

Presenter, "Would you acknowledge now that the Party does have a serious problem with antisemitism."

Chakrabarti, "I acknowledged the serious problems in my report itself."

Steve,
The trolls have won - not the argument, but the destruction of debate.

It is not trolling to discuss current and relevant issues pertaining to the title of the thread.
Destruction of debate is what you do with your name calling and ranting instead of rational discussion.

Greg,
Talk to me next year, Professor Nostradamus.

Why? I was describing the situation RIGHT NOW!

We already have the best performing economy in the EU and the G7!
We have the highest growth, and record low unemployment that other EU states can only dream of.

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 02:55 PM

Whoops - a touch of PE again
Ther is nothing wrong about supporting Israel - there is everything about supporting the bunch of antisemite monsters who are running it.
"I acknowledged the serious problems in my report itself."
No problem with Antisemitism then - just how she dealt with her report

A JEWISH VIEW ON LABOUR ANTISEMITISM

A Labour Party View on Jackie Walker's expulsion

Kilburn Labour Party calls for reinstatement of Jackie Walker
The Kilburn branch of the Hampstead and Kilburn Constituency Labour Party has entered the debate over the suspension of Jackie Walker by passing the following resolution yesterday evening:
This Branch/CLP notes that Jackie Walker has been suspended from Labour Party membership following remarks she made at a Party training session at conference.

We also note; The Chakrabati report advised against specific training sessions in anti-racism;
The Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) was given the task of running the training session, despite it being known that its views are contested by many Jewish members of the LP;
That contrary to Data Protection – without any notice to participants – the training session was secretly filmed by a JLM member and released to the media.
That, in the view of this Branch/CLP none of the remarks made by Jackie Walker at the training session constituted anti-Semitism;
That Jackie Walker is a Black Jewish anti-racist campaigner.
That Jackie Walker's suspension by the Party is contrary to the recommendations in the Chakrabati report and the requirements of natural justice.
We therefore call on the Party to reinstate Jackie Walker to full membership of the Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 16 - 03:14 PM

Can I Just add that, while the late MtheGM and I were regular sparring partners, particularly on Israel, I hold dear his memory as somebody I liked and respected.
That respect rocketed to stratospheric heights when, having defended The State of Israel, as he should, he expressed his disgust at the present crowd who, he said, had smashed the dream of Israel that he and his generation once cherished.
I share those views utterly
Jim Carroll