BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?

Subject: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 06:27 AM

Came close to a run-in with an Audi driver yesterday - because someone had the audicity to overtake him at traffic lights, because the overtaking car was in a queue of traffic the A***HOLE in the Audi decide to brake hard to pick an argument with the other driver. Yours truly in turn did an emergency stop, putting myself at risk of being shunted from behind - luckily didn't happen.

Upshot I am now of the belief that everyone who owns an Audi, for the safety of everyone else on the road must be automatically banned for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 06:53 AM

Yes. Also: Beamer drivers, any non-utility landrover drivers and farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 06:59 AM

Oh dear - I've been driving Audis for over 35 years and never had an accident or altercation in or with one. Bit harsh, to say the least...

Moral: Don't extrapolate personal grievances into universal ones.

[Mind you, I'd ban BMW drivers as well... :-)]

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 07:29 AM

Also: Bentleys, Aston Martins, Skoda drivers (me, I have no real aptitude for driving and find cars dull), herring, badgers (being chased by irate farmers foaming at the mouth that any indigenous wildlife still survives in the UK), backwoodsmen descended from friends of The Bastard, horse flies, sticks that stick up and clatter your undercarriage, Einstein-Rosen bridges floating on the breeze, mallards and those small spiky things that the dog brings in.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 07:32 AM

The problem is that bad drivers (I don't mean those who make mistakes, but those who deliberately drive badly) tend to gravitate towards Audi's and BMWs. A friend posted on facebook this week about a mother who was bottle feeding a baby with one hand while struggling to control her Audi in the middle lane of a dual carriageway with the other!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 07:47 AM

We are both safe, steady and 'positive' drivers, keeping up to the speed limit but not doing anything suddenly. Never had any accident or fine in forty years. (Insurer's dream!) But we are often tailgated/overtaken on dangerous bends, and it's usually by an Audi, BMW or Mercedes, usually black in colour. On can only draw conclusions from what one observes.
Not only do they overtake, but some of them then sit in front going more and more slowly in order to annoy us. We generally pull over and park until they buzz off.
We conclude that these makes of cars are expensive and showy, and capable of fast speeds (illegal, as our roads here are single-carriageway, so 60mph is the limit) so their owners want to cut a dash.
However, cutting a dash behind the wheel is dicing with death.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 07:56 AM

I think programmes like top gear that make bad/inconsiderate driving funny, or 'cool' add to problems. Driving at speed doesn't appeal to me, miss so much scenery and picturesque villages that can be enjoyed on the b-roads.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 08:13 AM

Rural roads have quite a high rate of fatalities.
Here one can come across tractors, huge combines-harvesters, horses, deer, people on bikes, pony-trotting enthusiasts, almost anything. And they can be just around a bend in the narrow road.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:04 AM

Volvo estates - why has no-one mentioned THEM!


What's the difference between a hedgehog and a Volvo estate?

With a hedgehog the pricks are on the outside...


And what about motor homes and caravan-pullers - should all have to pay £20,000 per annum road tax and spend six months out of every twelve in jail.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:15 AM

Strangely enough Steve, we find Volvo drivers to be fairly considerate and restrained! (Just a general impression; I'm sure there are pricks inside some of them)
You made me laugh about caravan-pullers. I don't agree though. Six months out of twelve in jail is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:38 AM

And they should DEFINITELY not be allowed to park their confounded, ugly big white monstrosities in their drives for all their neighbours to suffer for fifty weeks of the year. Grrr.

So, Senoufou, you have a Volvo estate, I presume...😂

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Megan L
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 11:40 AM

I once overtook a male driver he then overtook me and braked violently and continued to drive normally for a bit then brake suddenly even when I stopped for a few moments at the side of the road on a long straight stretch he was to engrossed in his silly game to realise what I was doing. He seemed really stunned when the police flagged him down as we entered the ferry car park. I cant after all these years remember what he was driving so I vote all male drivers should be banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 12:10 PM

Bugger - I seem to fail on all sides!

My wife drives the 14-year-old Audi - and I drive the 30-year-old Volvo 240 Estate.

I'll get both me coats...

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: G-Force
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 12:55 PM

I tow a caravan. So speed isn't an issue for me. I reckon if every driver of a German car towed a caravan, they'd learn that you still get there just the same, and almost as soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 02:26 PM

No no Steve. I have a little Fiesta. (It goes like a bomb though, plenty of acceleration) and my husband drives a Vauxhall Meriva.
We have no motorways in Norfolk, and most of our roads are single carriageway, most with 50mph speed limits, but some are 60mph, and all of them twisty and bendy.
Not the place to be stuck behind a tractor.
And not the place to have an aggressive Audi right behind one's rear end either!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:26 PM

BTW how does one pronounce the word "Audi" is it as on "ow-di"
or is it as in "Noddy"
Is the German pronounciation a form of snobbery after all we wouldnt pronounce Audible as owdible

My German car dealer neighbour used to have steam coming of his ears
when I used to ask him if he had "wan o they noddy cars"
Just a thought

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:32 PM

Hahaha Kenny. I always say 'ow-dee'. But then I often take the Mickey out of Seat cars and pronounce it Seet (as in somewhere to sit)
I always call BMWs 'Beamers'. But my very, very naughty neighbour says it stands for ...er...Black Man's Willy!!!!!! But then she's like that :)

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 03:59 PM

In Czech, au is pronounced ow, so the word for car is pronounced owtoe.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 05:05 PM

The correct pronunciation of Audi is "twatmobile." I thought everybody knew that!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: JHW
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 05:09 PM

Of course a Seat is a seat but no-one yet has been able to tell me what Cee'd is an abbreviation of

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 05:32 PM

JHW, I believe the South Koreans took the initials of 'European Economic Community' and added 'European Design'. They then took away one of the E's and came up with Cee'd. Sounds like a name designed by a committee to me!
I hate those stupid little Ford Ka's. "Oh look! There's a Ka!" (as opposed to a bicycle I imagine!)

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 05:38 PM

Yes, and there are certain vehicles which have names that permanently preclude me from ever driving one. I will not be seen dead driving anything called a Partner, a Berlingo, a Twingo, a Charade, a Jimny, a Touareg (who the hell thought that one up!), a Juke, a Qashqai (could never ask for one because I can't pronounce it) or a Megane. But the very stupidest car of all time must be the Picasso. I mean, what the hell do you think you look like getting into one of those! I swore blind that I would never be seen in one of those ludicrous Smart Cars, the ones that look like a cut 'n' shut but without the shut. Then, one day, I had to drive one home ten miles for an old lady who'd been taken ill. You know something, that car wasn't half bad...

Nah. I'm a socialist and I'm sticking to my beaten-up Ford Focus. I'm not telling you what Mrs Steve drives. Suffice to say, it has two seats only and many a hairdresser drives one. And I love it!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 05:47 PM

Well, Senoufou, the Ka is indeed ludicrously named. However, I had to borrow one for a week a while back while my driver's door was being rebuilt after a force ten gale blew it violently open, wrecking it completely. I found it to be remarkably spritely and perky, a joy to drive. Also, I've noted that Ka drivers seem to be predominantly rather gorgeous young women. So I'm giving the Ka a bye at this juncture. I'll keep you posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 06:28 PM

I did actually test-drive one once Steve, before I settled for a Fiesta.
It wasn't bad at all for performance, but the boot is tiny and I need some room for plants, bags of compost, cat-baskets and other gubbins from time to time, so I plumped for the Fiesta.
Does anyone else name their cars? I've had all sorts of names. My present one is Misty. (It's a female, but I've had male ones too)
Once a car-dealer looked at me a bit strangely and asked how I knew a car was male or female. I replied that the first time I sit in a car, it tells me its name. He sort of backed away looking round for help...

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 07:27 PM

I find feuds between car drivers of very little interest.

They're all selfish fuckwits with a grandiose sense of entitlement to a lifestyle of grotesque waste, and they can all just go kill each other as far I'm concerned.

Any car is a weapon of war against the future. You hate your descendants enough to condemn them to grubbling around through garbage in a burning world for anything they can still use out of your midden?

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 16 - 09:01 PM

I am about as good at identifying different cars as I am about recognising individual ants.

They get you around. At present they come in different colours, and a few different shapes. That's just needlessly confusing. We'd be better off if there were just say, three different models, small, medium and large, all built the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 07:00 AM

My Mr Campin it must be great to be perfect wonder how you would manage as a disabled person in an area with a hopeless bus service but then you are so busy showing us how righteous you are you don't give a damb about people.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 07:45 AM

We have no bus service at all in our village. I'm too old to cycle, and my husband needs his car to get to work. We could I suppose buy all our food online, but then a vehicle would have to deliver it.
I'm afraid we both need our cars. Believe me, if there were an alternative we'd grab it with both hands, as running two cars is horrendously expensive and troublesome.
We have actually considered moving into the city, but houses there are much more expensive and we couldn't afford to buy one. That's why we opted for our little village.
Not every car owner is a monster bent only on polluting the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 08:42 AM

Well said Mr Campin I'm an ardent admirer of written vitriol, best to get it off yourt chest, but I don't agree with a word of it
We all Fiddle while Rome burns?
Where would we be without the 'lectricity damming our rivers harnessing our wind and waves.
Come to think of it I think Ned Ludd would have been knighted if he was alive today, now there's a thought

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 09:40 AM

It's three-quarters of a mile to the main road from my house and there's no safe place for a bus to stop up there. Not that there are that many buses anyway, a few per day, all at daft times, and you can't get back home. I can get two or three buses a day to the nearest large towns (all between forty and sixty miles away), but getting home again having had a sensible length of time in your destination is a nightmare. Dr Beeching saw to it that rail travel is nobbut a distant dream. No cars would mean a completely depopulated countryside, one which has long had its viability undermined in any case by said depopulation. It's a choice, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:34 PM

A policy of no cars for anyone living in a city, with appropriate exceptions (eg people with mobility problems) would make sense. Sensible city dwellers have abandoned using cars already.

Decent public transport everywhere would make it possible to cut down car use. Living in a smallish town I never dream of going by car if there's an adequate alternative. I do about 2,000 miles driving in a year. I'd sooner do a crossword or read or look at the scenery than concentrate on not getting killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 04:36 PM

You wait till there are more driverless cars on the road. Knowing that car has to avoid another vehicle, how do you think your "Audi" driver is going to treat the driverless car?

In a TED talk by Goggle, trying to sell the concept of driverless cars they showed a video from one with another in front. In a stationary queue the gap between is programmed to be safe and big enough for the idiot to creep in between. The idiot had spotted an opportunity.

Now tell me a more moronic driver, who values his arrival time more than his bones, isn't going to rely on the driverless car stopping. And misjudging the ability of radar, lidar and ten cameras all with algoritms, on having enough safety margin in the face of arrogance.

I have a video of a Merc coming out of a sideroad to get a clearer view of the exit in front of my right of way, without stopping. Driver holding a phone to his ear.

It is about time we stopped calling incedents accidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:12 PM

Ha Mr Red! My husband and I have that discussion often. I say there's no such thing as a road 'accident', as someone was driving badly to cause it. He maintains that 'things aren't always someone's fault'.
I say yes, they always are. He seems to think stuff just 'happens'. We never seem to reach a conclusion. (Rather like another thread on here!)
One of us must be a Troll... Or a Flamer...

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:15 PM

Well I suppose we should call them incidents.

You must live in one of the Essex outlying villages then, Kevin, as Harlow itself is a somewhat sprawling place, hardly what we Cornish denizens would call a smallish town. I lived in Loughton for eight years and did most of my big shopping in Harlow, remember. Almost landed a job at Stewards but the governors showed bad taste. On the whole, I tend to think that many city-dwellers (including those in smallish towns which have relatively amazing bus and rail links) haven't a bloody CLUE what it's like living out in the sticks (boondocks, yanks?). Nearest railway station to me is an hour's drive. Buses are infrequent and totally inconvenient. We pay a damn sight more for petrol than you townies and our council tax is astronomical compared to yours. Still, at least we can always stare at the sheep and inhale the lovely pong of pigshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:32 PM

Well, Senoufou, we are all human beings. No-one decides to fall off a ladder or trip up on the pavement, or eat dodgy salad in order to get food poisoning. It's so easy to get all sententious and declare that "every so-called accident is someone's fault." I dropped a cup of tea on the floor this afternoon. I suppose it was my fault. I tripped on my stair carpet last week and still have the scabbed-over graze on my knee to prove it. My fault. Do you think that either outcome is what I wanted? Just because someone gets behind a wheel it doesn't make them a demon if they have an accident. Circumstances alter cases. Most accidents are caused by driver error, which can mean a momentary lapse of concentration or a poor snap decision. Just a few are caused by lunatics, ignoring the law about using mobile phones, drinking or by inexperience. As a society we could do a lot to fix those things, but we tend to put our priorities elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Sep 16 - 05:35 PM

Well it's true we spend a fortune on petrol, but our council tax is apparently the lowest in the land. (And I quite like staring at sheep and inhaling the smell of pig poo!)
I would certainly use the buses, as I've had a bus pass for years and years, but rarely get to use it. There's talk of getting a bus 'service' (we use the term loosely) from our village to a not-very-nice little town (not Norwich sadly) which would give us exactly 2hrs before we had to catch the return bus. But even this hasn't materialised yet.
I used to bike around, but I'm much too old now.
We have no Post Office/bank or even an ATM. Our village shop is tiny and only sells a few things. I really do feel we're justified in having our cars. It would be impossible to continue living here if we didn't.
On balance though, I adore village life and the quiet countryside. I couldn't exist in a town, I'd suffocate!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:26 AM

Not all road incidents come from errors of judgements. There is metal fatigue, which if you read police statistics, is rare to the point of insignificance. Then there is the state of UK roads (even motorways) - see metal fatigue. Punctures. BUT.......... we are talking maintenance surely AND ..............

Acts of god like lightning (metal cars are a Faraday cage, you are safe, the car may stall). Floods, but there is judgement involved.

Then, as if white stuff and your breath in the air doesn't inform people of potential danger - we could blame the weather. But I won't.

Then there is the other guy, it always is.

And hands free phones are safe, no? NO! 70% of the danger (American survey in the New Scientist) comes from the way we visualise the person on the other end, detracting from essential attention to the road. The 30% is the way people fiddle with the phone - like texting.

No I would accept that the cavalier way councils and private individuals refuse to "maintain their borders" and allow vegetation to cover road signs; and it is getting worse. Drivers panic, make late decisions and sudden manoeuvres (or maneuvers in the US). So anything after that is the council's fault? But accident?

Did I miss any other excuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:47 AM

Hahaha Steve, my husband would love you! Those are the very arguments he puts forward. Maybe you're both right and I'm misguided.

However, dropping a cup happens because one hasn't gripped it properly.
And dodgy salads are the fault of the person who prepared them.
Falling off a ladder is particularly dangerous and rather a sensitive subject for me, as a man in our village (quite a close neighbour) fell off his ladder recently outside his house and when the Air Ambulance arrived, he was dead (head injury). And it was because he hadn't secured it correctly, or at all.
Tragic, but true nevertheless.
There are in my view very few incidents where no-one was at fault. But I can give an example. My sister was called out to attend to a woman up in the wilds of Scotland. A huge wild red deer had leapt in front of her car in the dark and its horns had broken the windscreen and pierced the lady's chest cavity. She later died, poor soul. I don't think that could have been avoided.
Actually, I think I would make a very good Insurance Loss Assessor - I wouldn't be paying out a penny, hard-hearted person that I am!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:59 AM

By the way Steve, I'm intrigued that you've found Ka's to be driven by 'gorgeous young women'. I might get one as my next car, and await the transformation. My husband would definitely be very pleased!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 12:23 PM

I like Volvo estates, jump in, fire up the engine, select your choice of gear for the day and off you go.

We had a Volvo C70 convertible in White, that would set off in third gear and you'd still be in third gear when braking the national speed limit.

Great car.!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 02:04 PM

No, I live in Harlow itself - I see it as smallish because I grew up in London. Dispersed rather than sprawling I'd call it, neve far from the shos wherever you live in it - though the bus service was wrecked by privatisation.

I agree real accidents where no one is at fault are pretty rare events. Even when wild animals are involved the chances are the driver should have really been going slower. More often than not where two or more drivers are involved they'll all have played a part in the accident. You should always drive on the assumption that other drivers are going to do something incredibly stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 02:31 PM

http://www.cartalk.com/sites/default/files/blogs/jim-motavalli/images/road%20hog%20chart.jpeg

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:00 PM

I've got a Mercedes Benz with MD plates I have no trouble finding dates
I've got a 1980 Subaru, one more semester then I'm through
A Slant-6 Dodge is no big thrill but it's a car no atom bomb can kill
I make a lot of dough in a high-tech job, yeah sure you bet I drive a turbo Saab
I'll bet you a ten, even a fiver, you find the car and I'll find the driver
It really ain't no big deal to know who's inside that automobile
Well I've just airbrushed my Econo-line, "A friend of the devil is a Friend of Mine"
I've got a 1962 Biscayne it won't start if it looks like rain
A four wheel drive with extra chrome I keep it on the paved roads close to home
Cadillac the size of an Amtrak train when I drive I take two lanes
Now my Honda civic is a real go-getter, I look great in it in my crew neck sweater
And my BMW draws applause, I am not bound by traffic laws
I got a Ranger truck, I'm for import quotas, I won't park next to no Toyotas
My Volvo wagon will seat six, it'll run on diesel or trail mix
I'll bet you a ten, even a fiver, you find the car and I'll find the driver
It really ain't no big deal to know who' the driver

Morrissey 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: BobL
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:22 PM

If I were dictator, to apply for a car driving licence you would first need to have a full motorbike license and at least two years accident-free experience. That should eliminate a lot of idiots right at the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: BobL
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 03:36 PM

And what's more, road rage would be a license-costing offence.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:30 PM

Naming cars? No, but I do invent various means of remembering registration by acronyms.
Various past ones include - DRT ---Y - Yes, it was usually dirty!
--- GGD Goody Gum Drops
SK--- WWD Wild West Doc
ST0- LNK Stolen Kar
SK-- GXP Great EXPense
LD13 XXX Lethal Dose 13
None of these was an Audi,but the worst driving I saw recently was from some twit in an underpowered Dacia who decided to overtake me at very great time duration on a blind summit in West Lothian: he would have been minced if anything had come the other way!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 05:38 PM

Oh Tattie! My funny friend took one look at one of my Fiestas years ago, with the reg no. TVG and immediately said "Transvestite Granny!"

I absolutely love your Goody Gum Drops!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:26 PM

Not sure about that idea BobL It might cut down on the number of people driving, but they'd all be bike riders... Which tends to mean a bit crazy in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 06:39 PM

Hahaha! I can't really see me astride a motorbike! Supergran!

Subject: RE: BS: Should all Audi Drivers be banned?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 16 - 07:37 PM

My son had a reg plate on his Cinquecento that included "MBW." We christened it My Big Willie. Once we'd tuned into that, it was amazing how many plates we spotted that ended in "...BW." So we spotted a good few Awfully Big Willies, Disgustingly Big Willies, Extremely Big Willies, Horribly Big Willies, Lovely Big Willies, Massively Big Willies, Suntanned Big Willies, Terribly Big Willies, Unusually Big Willies, and, of course, F*****g Big Willies. I'm ashamed to say that we still play that game with reg plates after more than 20 years. Passes the time during my frequent sojourns on the M5 and M6.