Soldiers songs calling officers

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:33 PM

Roy Palmer is an excellent collector of songs and author of many books but I am unsure what the above quote brings to this thread. The opening post asks quite clearly for songs sung by soldiers that are dismissive of their leaders. We have seen that such songs do exist and three such are quoted from the other thread. Whether they are tongue in cheek or serious, political comment or a joke has no bearing on whether the content of the song itself is dismissive.

Just my opinion of course but, then again, albeit at someone else's request, I did start the thread :-)

D.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 03:06 PM

"Oh What A Lovely War" a piece of revisionist crap written long after the end of the First World War as a protest against War in general and against the Vietnam War in particular.

Based on a book of thoroughly dubious historical merit written by Alan Clark that covered only 1915 it was transposed to cover the entire conflict. All done in retrospect on very poor information that we now know to be wrong.

Roy Palmer's Rambling Soldier written in 2008 and viewed through 21st century eyes - what was asked for was work written at the time by those present at the time.

Tommy's Tunes - read this from the introduction to the work:

" By their words shall ye know them," or " By your
words shall ye be judged," are parallel platitudes—yet
think, indulgent reader, how far from accurate would
be your judgment and idea of the British soldier were
you to draw conclusions solely on his songs ! You
would picture a man—yea, an army, nowadays, even
the nation—as lacking in esprit de corps, amour propre,
discipline, or any other of those wise soldierly qualities
without which no collection of free people could stand
the enormities of injustice and voluntary sacrifice
which are demanded over an extended and sustained
period by modern warfare. And you would be wrong

It is a peculiarity of British humour to be derogatory
to its own dignity, to wipe itself in the mud, to affect
self-satire to an alarming extent. Yet woe betide any
foreigner who dares to opine we're not what we think
we are. The spirit really evinced by these songs, in
spite of their oft-times derogatory purport, is that of a
lofty cynicism and a confirmed fatalism, but real, thick,
unadulterated sarcasm—never.

Regarding the fatalistic tendency shown by Tommy
in all his speech and actions, this will be noticed irre-
spective of his philosophy — Tommy may be Romanist,
Protestant, Wesleyan, Atheist, Theosophist, or Agnostic,
yet one and all betray the same traits and the same
courage.

Although the great aim of this work is to present and
perpetuate the original and unwritten tunes and rhymes,
it must not be supposed that Tommy taboos any other
sort. Of course, the latest music-hall ditties, with
their swinging tunes, have a great vogue, but the enthu-
siasm soon wears off.

" Tipperary " was never greatly sung. I think it of
interest to place on record how this song has actually
stood in Tommy's estimation and in the favour of the
world. Notwithstanding that it is now sung over five
continents, and that our French friends—most of them
—have Tipperary at their finger tips, and most of the
street urchins and parigots sing it with equal exuberance
in French and English — it was never Tommy's song.

The above seems to back up precisely what I stated earlier.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

In case anyone thinks I have gone daft(er) my question about a poem was in response to an exchange that has disappeared! Something about the Sergeant being a bugger but I'm buggered if I can remember the rest :-)

D

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 02:35 PM

If the Sergeant steals your rum, never mind. Have look at any of Nettleingham's books or Tommy's Tunes etc. Roy Palmer's The Rambling Soldier, and What a Lovely War. Martin Page's WWII books and a few lesser known ones, American airmen's etc.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: cnd
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:12 PM

Pete Seeger: Waist Deep in the Big Muddy

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 01:04 PM

Is the poem a genuine piece of forces disrespect? If so, any particular conflict? I would think the ranks mentioned come under the the term 'officer' even if it is non-commissioned so it would fit in with the theme of calling officers.

D.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:49 AM

No points to score and therefore no goal posts even erected! I hope to keep this an interesting and civil discussion so I would appreciate a little less unwarranted aggression but if anyone wants to blow off some steam, who am I to stop them :-) As to the maker of exceedingly good cakes I can only refer to the terms of reference in the OP -

"The ones above relate to WW1 specifically but I guess any war, or any other situation, will do."

Very interesting points about 'the old barbed wire'. Can you refer us to a definitive source for the 'original' version you refer to as opposed to any of the of the other 'originals'?

D.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 08:36 AM

Anyone looking at "Hanging on the old barbed wire" who has never been in the armed forces and has no military experience or experience of what the anonymous writer of the song experienced may well assume what they like. The song in it's original version (And there are quite a few of them, nobody knows when they appeared) does not refer to Generals, or Colonels, or Privates but runs through the ranks present in the line.

Sergeant
Quartermaster
Sergeant Major
Lieutenant
C.O.
Battalion (And it is the Battalion that is hanging on the old barbed wire - NOT the Privates)

Not dismissive at all - as they were all in it together.

Certainly nothing dismissive related to military leadership in the ditty "Bloody Orkney", so we seem to be creating a list of songs related to the First World War.

No massive list of songs dismissive of the military leadership of armed forces of the First World War at all as inferred in another thread on this forum by someone on a trolling mission - but that was as I suspected.

Kipling? Goal posts changing are they Gnome?

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:46 AM

Did the soldiers at the time appreciate Kipling's work or were they not even aware of it?

They must have been aware of it. In the second hand book trade I probably see more cheap copies of Kipling's verse than any other song and poetry of the late-Victorian/Edwardian period. I haven't found a list of all the editions printed (if anybody's even managed to compile one) - most are cheaply printed and bound and must have been affordable to any literate reader.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:37 AM

Bloody Orkney.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Charmion
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:31 AM

"Hanging on the old barbed wire" criticizes every rank above that of corporal, with the single exception of the lieutenant, who is out on a night patrol. The Canadian version, known as "Has anyone seen the colonel?", is so entrenched (sorry) in our military culture that it became the regimental quick march of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry.

The OP might take a look at "McCaffery", an English broadside dating from the 1830s. The central character becomes so resentful of a sentence of two weeks CB received at summary trial that he takes a shot at his company commander, but misses and kills the colonel instead. Of course, the song is a prisoner's farewell; he swings for his crime.

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 07:00 AM

In what way are they not dismissive? If someone was to suggest, for instance, that I was sat in a bar enjoying myself while everyone else was doing their job, would that not be dismissive of me or at least my attitude? I know full well what black humour is but I do not see the relevance here. Humour can be a very effective tool in dismissing someone else, or their viewpoint.

Please note though that this is an above the line music thread and not a political soapbox. I am asking for examples of such songs and arguing whether they are such songs or not is probably about as productive as trying to define folk music :-)

Just a thought (to the world in general rather any one person) would any of Kipling's 'Barrack Room Ballads' form part of this discussion? Or, because Kipling was not part of the 'common soldiery' himself would they be discounted? Did the soldiers at the time appreciate Kipling's work or were they not even aware of it? Just wondering.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 06:41 AM

Now, now Gnome get it right - The examples given are as stated typical examples of British Armed Forces "Black Humour" they are not dismissive of their leaders.

Look up what "Black Humour" means

Black Humour:
"How else could our servicemen and women cope with defence cuts that have reduced the British Army to fewer troops than Sainsbury employs in its shopping aisles but still expect them to fight foreign wars against invisible enemies in the mountains of Afghanistan?"

Black Humour:
"That very British characteristic, which transcends the class divide of officer and men: the ability to crack a joke both at ourselves and our superiors when our backs are against the wall. This is ingrained in our soldiers from their first days on the parade ground to coping with fear and soothing frayed nerves before stepping out on patrol in Helmand.

In truth, the British army is a breeding ground for comedians and the kind of men who, just like Private Baldrick, pick themselves up and smile in the face of adversity."

Famous real life example - Spike Milligan - born into a military family his father was a Royal Artillery Captain serving in the Indian Army. Called up to serve in the Royal Artillery during the Second World War Spike Milligan and fellow musician Harry Edgington would compose surreal stories, filled with puns and skewed logic, as a way of staving off the boredom of life in barracks.

Subject: Soldiers songs calling officers
From: GUEST,In good company
Date: 03 Oct 16 - 05:37 AM

Elsewhere someone asked for a thread to be started giving examples of songs sung by soldiers that are dismissive of their leaders. The examples given are, and I quote from the other thread,

"Hanging on the old barbed wire" (British Army) - typical example of Forces "Black Humour", same as "An Airman Lay Dying" (Royal Flying Corps), also "Sweeping" (Royal Navy).

Any more? They must be 'of the time' rather than written after the event. The ones above relate to WW1 specifically but I guess any war, or any other situation, will do.


Cheers

Dave