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Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate

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Subject: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:24 AM

A surprise but deserved win of the Nobel prize for literature.

Live coverage


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:40 AM

Huzzah for Mr. Tambourine Man, Nobel Laureate, Bob Dylan -

Then take me disappearin' through the smoke rings of my mind
Down the foggy ruins of time, far past the frozen leaves
The haunted, frightened trees, out to the windy beach
Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free
Silhouetted by the sea, circled by the circus sands
With all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves
Let me forget about today until tomorrow

Knock, Knock, Knockin on Nobel's Door (2013 NY Times)

voyager


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:28 AM

I'll go halfway with you, Peter, and agree that it was a surprise. 😉


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM

Is there a Nobel Prize for Plagiarism?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:58 AM

The times certainly are a-changin'. I thought I'd get that in before the press do!

RtS


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:04 AM

Well, this is a surprise. I have been a lifelong fan of Dylan, I admire his stance on many issues , I love his lyrics and I think he has been a pivotal figure in music.Having said that, if I was going to give a literature prize to a musician, I would give it to Leonard Cohen, or Joni Mitchell perhaps.
But I have no great problem with Bob Dylan getting it, especially when I remind myself of some of the mediocre writers who have been awarded the honour.So, good on Bob.
As for the accusation of plagiarism, utter nonsense !


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:08 AM

Well if that was the case, Woody Guthrie would have been a good candidate for it too! Certainly both Dylan and Guthrie took ideas and even lines and tunes from other sources. The argument on their behalf is that they enhanced those ideas and made something more of them. Woody Guthrie saw this as an inevitable part of the folk process.
The case for the significance of Dylan's work rests more on the way he tackled several genres of American song and was able to extend the range of what could be achieved in them. In particular, I can think of no artist before him, who attempted the complex psychological profiles which you get in songs like "Ballad of a Thin Man",or "It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding". You don't have to like him to recognise that he was artistically very ambitious.
Still, I had better shut up now. Little Hawk will be around at any moment - and he probably has the drop on most Dylanologists around here!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:16 AM

I'm not saying I don't like him. I do but it can't be denied that he "borrowed" several phrases and melodies over the years.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:19 AM

He borrowed quite a bit from Nic Jones, didn't he, forgetting to mention it...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

If Tom Lehrer wanted another reason why satire was superfluous he just got it...

Maybe I'll drop in to a Dylan-themed singaround and read a chapter of Jose Saramago.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:31 AM

Plenty such sessions in Midlothian ;))


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:45 AM

Johnny J. it's called the 'folk process ' it's always happened and it always will.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 09:45 AM

I'm happy, but kinda surprised.


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Subject: Bob Dylan: Nobel Prize for Literature.
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 10:56 AM

Well deserved Bob, a true poet if ever there was one!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:01 AM

Also, Woody Guthrie is dead, and dead people can't win. But I'd have liked to see him honored in his lifetime.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan : Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:09 AM

Only 40 years too late but well done at last. Best news for ages!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:56 AM

This past summer the Centre Georges Pompidou devoted a floor to the "Beat Generation".   It was a WONDERFUL montage of photos, films, sounds and settings and manuscripts, (Jack Kerouac's novel On the Road rolled out in its original 200 foot scroll.)

Bob Dylan's "Subterranian Homesick" was projected on a wall.

See below for the story of its filming and its clip.





http://ultimateclassicrock.com/bob-dylan-subterranean-homesick-blues-video/


Sincerely,
Gargoyle


You can notice Allen Ginsberg on the left side of the screen.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 01:19 PM

Thats nice. It would have been also nice if the interim singer/picker/song collector & huge influence Rambling Jack Elliott was at least mentioned in Dylan's career.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:22 PM

Interesting take from Slate.com here.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 02:57 PM

Cut Mr Zimmerman some slack guys. How is a singer/wrongciter gonna learn his trade if he doesn't immerse himself in a tradition?
He was a wordsmith before he started singing trad English.
He did more than learn songs, he learned how to construct them. He didn't pull his punches, even if they weren't there to smash the system. They woke up people.
And his influence - you can't argue he didn't influenced generations.

There were better singers, better musicians, but the prize is not for those. It is for his words, and their influence. Had he been British he would be Sir or even Lord Dylan of Laugharne.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:18 PM

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal. T. S. Eliot (Nobel Laureate)
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/t_s_eliot.html


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:20 PM

Loved his words... but i'm afraid really hated his whiney voice...which meant i didn't listen to much of his stuff...
What would the reaction have been in the 60s/70s if someone had said that one day he'd be a Nobel prizewinner!!!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM

I had totally forgotten lying in wait for him in the hopes he'd come to my college graduation, since his daughter was graduating too... thank you for reminding me his family name is Zimmerman!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: fat B****rd
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 03:40 PM

Francis Ford Coppola once said, on apparently being accused of plagiarising King Lear with "The Godfather"*, "Well, if you're going to steal, steal from the best"
*I know he didn't write it!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 04:28 PM

I had one encounter with Bob Dylan, the man, back in the mid '70s.
My brother and I were at a movie theater in Beverly Hills where the
the feature film was 'Children of Paradise' (Les Enfants du Paradis).

When the movie ended and the lights came on, there was one person still in the seats wearing dark glasses (so you wouldn't recognize him perhaps). When he was leaving the theater I caught a glimpse of Dylan looking much like his persona from the Blond on Blond era.

End of story.
For that alone, I'd recommend him for the Noble prize (guffaw).

Cheers
voyager


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:06 PM

"I'm a Dylan fan, but this is an ill conceived nostalgia award wrenched from the rancid prostates of senile, gibbering hippies..." Irvine Welsh

Like they say in Chicago... there's always next year (Go Cubbies!)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 05:31 PM

Bob Dylan now belongs to the ages and will join all the other folk rock&rollers who have won the Nobel Prize.


THIS IS THE CUBS YEAR


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:06 PM

I never thought of the Nobel committee as being made up of'senile, gibbering hippies', if that's what that unpleasant word salad is supposed to mean .... but then I've never thought much of the Nobel committee at all .....


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM

Well I found Dylan's "poetry" to be dense, exclusive and obscurantist. To me, poetry should be crystallising notions that I can't articulate clearly for myself, that are inchoate in my mind. Happy, sad, tragic, life-affirming, anything. But making me focus, providing an illuminating spark. Dylan's lyrics are nothing like that. They are for self-regarding ex-hippies who think they are "on to something" that the less sophisticated among us are incapable of seeing. Up their own bottoms in other words. Crap harmonica player too.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:53 PM

Half of the people can be part right all of the time
Some of the people can be all right part of the time
But all of the people can't be all right all of the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that
"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours"
I said that


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 06:57 PM

God don't make no promises that He don't keep

You got some big dreams, baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up

When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

__________________

"The Beatles and The Rolling Stones heard Bob Dylan and it changed them forever; all-time great singer-songwriters Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell and Paul Simon all looked up to him; so do such new generation stars as Marcus Mumford, Ed Sheeran, Taylor Swift and Adele. You can even hear his cadences in hip hop, where he is the most venerated veteran white songwriter, name-checked by everyone from Jay Z to Kendrick Lamar."

www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/bob-dylan-turned-the-simple-pop-song-into-fine-literature---of-c


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:15 PM

Big deal. Take the Beatles. Amazing music put to banal lyrics (I love them, by the way). Some influence. Chalk and cheese.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:27 PM

Horse feathers


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:47 PM

But it's true. Show me any Beatles lyrics that come anywhere near to Dylan's flowery, obscurantist nonsense. Shallow copies at best. .


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Airymouse
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:12 PM

"I laugh, because I must not cry, that is all, that is all." President Abraham Lincoln

"A people who values its privileges above its principles, soon loses both." President Eisenhower

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" President Reagan

"Grab them by the pussy; you can do anything." Donald Trump

Rudyard Kipling, Winston Churchill, Jean-Paul Sartre, Andre Gide, Albert Camus, William Butler Yeats, Eugene O'Neill, T.S. Eliot, Pablo Neruda, William Faulkner, John Steinbeck, Ernest Hemingway, Sinclair Lewis, Thomas Mann...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 08:17 PM

"To be is to do" -- Socrates
.
"To do is to be"-- Sartre

"Do be do be do" -- Sinatra


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 10:24 PM

Its measured ways I tread again
Quatrain by constrained quatrain,
Meting grief and reason out
As you said a poem ought.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:08 PM

His lyrics deserve acknowledgement--decades of scintillating, deep, passionate and human images and spinning metaphysics laced together like the offspring of Thomas Jefferson and Artur Rimbaud. I think he deserved the prize, and I am very surprised the Committee agreed.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 11:18 PM

And he had strange dreams...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 12:02 AM

I think it's great and I'm not surprised. I kind of saw this as a possibility when he was awarded the Pulitzer a couple years back. Songwriters have always been an important part of our literary landscape, especially in the last 50+ years, and it's good to see that being recognized. Hopefully, this will open the door for a few more deserving candidates, like L Cohen and Tom Waits.
Now that the paradigm is shifting as far as what is accepted as literature, I think film making should get some consideration as well.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 02:26 AM

Well, Dylan certainly had the admiration of his peers.
Whoever you admire in the songwriting field, chances are that they are big Bob Dylan fans.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 03:01 AM

"Songwriting's just kinda like catching fish--you sit there and pull them out as they go by--though I think Bob Dylan's up stream from me somewhere."

Arlo Guthrie


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:25 AM

LOL


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,John rom Kemsing
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:43 AM

I have enjoyed much of Bob Dylan`s music, even if I found some of the lyrics rather strange but those Swedes who decided that he is the "world`s best living poet" - come on - smell the coffee!. They are in need of counselling. Perhaps treatment by some Nobel winning psychologist or psychiatrist might help. And, reading some of the commentators, the King`s New Suit of Clothes comes to mind.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho mask
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 04:49 AM

Only the other week, a few of us were being boring in the pub and I mentioned that Andrew Motion, back when he was Poet Laureate said that Dylan's Visions of Joanna was possibly the finest example of twentieth century poetry.

Mind you, if we get into distinctions between poetry and lyrics, someone will probably find the minutes of an irrelevant meeting in 1954....,.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:30 AM

I don't think the award was given because they think he is the greatest living poet though!!! It was given seemingly "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition".

So the big thing is that they have decided to give a literature award to a writer of song lyrics rather than a writer of poetry or prose. Why not I ask? Poetry, especially shorter lyrical poems and song lyrics can kind of blend into each other anyway. If they are going to give the award to a lyricist at some point then Dylan does seem the obvious choice. Whilst he's still here.

I'd have thought people who have an interest in song would be glad that the literary academics are regarding song lyrics as worthy of recognition.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Bloke in Groucho Mask
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 09:57 AM

Yeah but just stirring it like....

American tradition maybe, but his reliance on English traditional in the early days gives such wording a sense of irony.

😎


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 10:33 AM

Arlo, that was sweet.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

Headline -in english- on a german newspaper today:

"How many words must a man write down....."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 03:05 PM

......but this is an ill conceived nostalgia award wrenched from the rancid prostates of senile, gibbering hippies..." Irvine Welsh

Takes one to know one.........


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 05:42 PM

Steve Shaw: "Well I found Dylan's "poetry" to be dense, exclusive and obscurantist. To me, poetry should be crystallising notions that I can't articulate clearly for myself, that are inchoate in my mind. Happy, sad, tragic, life-affirming, anything. But making me focus, providing an illuminating spark. Dylan's lyrics are nothing like that."

I do kind of agree. I prefer poetry that is simple and easy to understand, yet is still able to put into words our deepest human experiences and emotions.

And yet, some of Dylan's poetry (not all!) does have a special rhythmic resonance. It's as though he's writing a melody just by using words. Like building a magic castle out of Lego bricks.

He's not a particularly talented singer. But on balance, I'd say that he deserves his Nobel Prize, for the (often obscure) genius of his wordcraft.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

It's all about influence. How many of us could quote a line from Andrew Motion's work. I certainly couldn't and I taught literature for 40 years. I'm not a big fan of Dylan but I could quote you many an influential line!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 05:45 PM

BTW, many a great poet/composer took influence from English traditional song. Where do you think Coleridge, Keats, Wordsworth got their inspiration? Vaughan Williams, Butterworth, Elgar, Britten etc.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:07 PM

You can quote Dylan, but not Andrew Motion, because Dylan came to us via the pop world, via mass exposure and commercial impetus. Poor old Andrew didn't have a chance next to that. Wagner had a massive influence on lots of people. I challenge you to show me that any of that influence was anything other than baleful. Measuring someone's greatness by the influence they have is a rather dangerous game.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:18 PM

Perhaps using the word 'great' was too loose then. How about celebrated/influential?

Whilst there is truth in what you say, Dylan is part of popular culture. Should the Nobel Lit prize not also celebrate popular culture as opposed to highbrow culture?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 06:53 PM

Actually, when you think about it, 'Nobel Prizes', awarded by Nobel Committees based in Scandinavia, are rather an odd idea! But still an interesting phenomenon, which generates much interesting discussion!

Still waiting for my Prize, boo! I wouldn't mind Physics, Chemistry, Physiology, Medicine, Literature or Peace. I've achieved great things in all of those areas.

Btw, last year I visited the Nobel Museum in Stockholm, and they actually sell very tasty Nobel medals made of chocolate!! I just wish I could have resisted eating mine, rather than giving it pride of place in my Trophy Cabinet at home.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 08:24 PM

It's a well deserved award. Yes, there are other singer-songwriters who deserve recognition but Dylan most likely has had the most influence.

It's odd, though I know many Dylan songs, or fragments of them, I've never led one in a session.

There are so many other candidates on my Nobel Prize list but to name a few:

Si Kahn
Phil Ochs
Kate Wolf
Malvina Reynolds

Charlie Ipcar


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 14 Oct 16 - 11:04 PM

Tend to agree with Steve though there does seem something clever in his use of words. The gospel era albums were more straightforward and understandable .


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 09:09 AM

Bernard Shaw once wrote that Wagner's music was a lot better than it sounded.

The same kind of thing could be said about Dylan's writing. It gets inside you. And not so much the stuff that is openly trying to sound "poetic".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: nager
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 10:42 AM

Well deserved


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 12:39 PM

Just heard on a BBC R4 prog about Sam Cooke. He apparently said he was impressed with "Blowin in the Wind" and said "if a white man can write a song like that, it is about time a black man wrote such a song"
The result? "the River" ("a Change Gonna Come")

I calls that one helluva inspiration.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Essex Bor
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:21 PM

Disgraceful.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:31 PM

Mr Red, I didn't know that. I LOVE that song!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:41 PM

Article by somebody who nominated him back in the '60's... WashPo Blicky.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Acorn4
Date: 15 Oct 16 - 01:42 PM

I think he deserves it for the lyrics of "It's Allright Ma" alone.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Essex Bor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:40 AM

"BTW, many a great poet/composer took influence from English traditional song. Where do you think Coleridge, Keats, Wordsworth got their inspiration? Vaughan Williams, Butterworth, Elgar, Britten etc"

Wordsworth got his inspiration from many things including daffodils, your post muddies the waters Britten used traditional tunes but did not set any lyrics of any merit to traditional music, mind you Bob Dylans Dream is a forgettable piece of lightweight plagiaristic poppycock.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Essex Bor
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 05:44 AM

Zimmer man should get his zimmer and go ans sing his lightweight 'poetry' to those refugees from the sixties in old people home.s


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:43 AM

I assume that you are using the word "sing" advisedly.

I vaguely recall Dylan in a documentary some years ago dismissing his elevation to some sort of guru or spokesman for his times, complaining that he was just a rock musician. Good to see that he views his achievements with far more accuracy than does his army of sycophants. And I do love "Like a Rolling Stone."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 09:03 AM

Essex bro, maybe he'll turn it down


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 03:27 PM

His nomination may be a gift to all those aging hippie people living hand to mouth...eBay


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 04:01 PM

And another interesting article from Slate...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,stole
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 06:42 PM

deserved. should have been given back in 92. did them a favor in taking it. word


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:15 PM

Well it was our monthly Sunday session this afternoon, and somewhat unusually, we had a lot of Dylan songs, aided and abetted by a couple of books of his lyrics that someone brought along. I sang "Masters of War" which is so very sadly just as relevant today as when it was written: possibly more so with everything that's going on in Syria and the USA at present. A very powerful song.
And I rolled out at 5.15 to the whole assembled company singing "Like Rolling Stone".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 01:46 AM

And he was the CD in my car the day he was nominated... what taste I have. Who knew.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,silver
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:07 AM

When I first saw it announced, I thought it was a joke. Judging from Mr. Dylan's reaction, or lack of reaction, he thinks so, too.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:25 PM

There hasn't been much of a reaction by Dylan, apparently he hasn't spoken to the Nobel committee either...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 04:07 PM

I like Leonard Cohen's take on this:

'Leonard Cohen suggested on Thursday that no prizes were necessary to recognise the greatness of the man who transformed pop music with records like Highway 61 Revisited. "To me," he said, "[the Nobel] is like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain." '


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:26 PM

I'm glad he said pop music. I have a hunch that Dylan would agree with that. The only problem with the comparison is that Everest is INDISPUTABLY the greatest mountain in the world. *





*At least by altitude. I'm rather fond of Penyghent meself...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:43 AM

A Harvard professor has been teaching lessons on Dylan and his words for years. This article points out that the announcment came timely for the current class.

NY Time article about Richard F Thomas: Harvard professor


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:34 AM

The only problem with the comparison is that Everest is INDISPUTABLY the greatest mountain in the world.

He said highest, Steve...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:56 AM

Apropos of nothing (except Mudcat banter about Nobel-Bob) -

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only                

It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,AndyL
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

Well deserved. His early work draws heavily on the Bible as well as on the British/American ballad tradition, Longfellow and other poets, and he's amazingly diverse, mastering and transcending several genres.
When he was young and poor I befriended him following one of his first gigs at Gerdes Folk City in Greenwish Village by giving him a ride in my father's Oldsmobile to his girlfriend's house. "Bobby" also caught the undivided interest of a woman I was interested in, the late traditional singer Hedy West.
PS. I agree that Joni Mitchell's large catalogue of exceptionally well-wrought songs deserves recognition at a similar level, though not necessarily a Nobel.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

Interestingly, his Bobness is, by all accounts, playing hard to get. The Nobel Committee is still trying to get in touch with him! Apparently he doesn't neither answers the phone nor calls back.......


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:39 PM

Oh well, if he doesn't reply, there's always Randy Newman, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen... and many others...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:17 PM

Shane McGowan. Songwriter, poet, survivor.

When it's summer in Siam...

And I was in Almería once again this summer. Churros and coffee for breakfast, then the best indoor food market ever, then olives, padrons, bread and chorizo, washed down with Rioja. You should've been there, Shane!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:55 PM

I think it id not deserved, in my opinion he has written two excellent songs and a couple of other fairly good ones. in my opinion he has written less good songs, than Ewan MacColl, but really awrding a prize for literature to a song writer is a joke, some of his literature is doggerel, some of his songs are very unclear as regards meaning others like hattie carroll are good subject matter but way too long and are unimginatively constructed, written like a factually accurate list butin need of serious precising and or editing.
By awarding this to Dylan they are devaluing the literature prize, if it was a song writing prize on the strength of at least 3 songs arguably 4, he would be a contender, but not as a poet or a writer of literature, no way, WHO WERE THE IDOITIC JUDGES.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:10 PM

I tend to agree. Though we can stay sane by accepting that these things are always a matter of opinion.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:26 PM

Which 2?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:38 PM

Anybody notice it was a literature award, not a songwriting competition? As poetry, MacColl's not even close. Dylan's stuff ranges from image-heavy dreamy stuff to concrete story-telling, and it changed things. I do think he deserved it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:39 PM

Blighty's knickers knotted?

Oh dear so sad. Never mind.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 03:57 AM

It is always going to be a matter of personal opinion when it comes to what is and isn't a good song but at least 'for me' the idea that he has only written three or four songs that were either excellent or fairly good is a far bigger joke than him receiving any award. If I could have written dozens of the songs Dylan wrote then I'd be a very happy bunny.

Also the idea that the judges were idiotic and maybe didn't know what they were doing doesn't hold water either. Again all down to taste but as has been previously mentioned Andrew Motion shortly after he became Poet Laureate gave a lecture in which he claimed Dylan was one of the greatest artists of the 20thC and was the writer of the greatest song lyrics ever written. Again all down to taste but are we really going to state that Motion is an idiot for believing that? That one of the most respected modern poets doesn't know anything about verse?

Likewise the idea that lyrics aren't good "if they are unclear as regards meaning" doesn't wash either - it is only personal preference. More obscure verse or abstract verse is a recognised form. In fact in response to Motion's lecture on Dylan the other respected poet Dannie Abse commented that Dylan's work was song lyrics rather than poetry because it was too rational

"For me song lyrics should have something rational about them. That is what distinguishes them from written poetry, which, I think, has something of the irrational about it,"

So I suppose if respected poets can't agree on Dylan then why should we expect old blokes on mudcat to do so???

All in all though I pick up The New English Book Of English Verse which classes itself as "the established classic anthology of English poetry" and it is littered with verse that was written to be sung so the defining line between song and poetry is not as clear as some would suggest. The obvious examples in it are ballads like "Tam Lin" and "Mary Hamilton" but also Burns' song lyrics like "My Love Is Like A Red Red Rose" and "John Anderson". It is not new to regard certain song lyrics as part of the poetry canon.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM

Ooops sorry meant "New Oxford Book Of English Verse" But just also re what makes it into volumes of poetry. Well this poem "Bagpipe Music" by Louis Macneice for me has more in common with Subterranean Homesick Blues or Desolation Row than it has with Shakespeare or Milton!


It's no go the merrygoround, it's no go the rickshaw,
All we want is a limousine and a ticket for the peepshow.
Their knickers are made of crêpe-de-chine, their shoes are made of python,
Their halls are lined with tiger rugs and their walls with heads of bison.

John MacDonald found a corpse, put it under the sofa,
Waited till it came to life and hit it with a poker,
Sold its eyes for souvenirs, sold its blood for whisky,
Kept its bones for dumb-bells to use when he was fifty.

It's no go the Yogi-Man, it's no go Blavatsky,
All we want is a bank balance and a bit of skirt in a taxi.

Annie MacDougall went to milk, caught her foot in the heather,
Woke to hear a dance record playing of Old Vienna.
It's no go your maidenheads, it's no go your culture,
All we want is a Dunlop tyre and the devil mend the puncture.

The Laird o'Phelps spent Hogmanay declaring he was sober,
Counted his feet to prove the fact and found he had one foot over.
Mrs Carmichael had her fifth, looked at the job with repulsion,
Said to the midwife 'Take it away; I'm through with
over-production'.

It's no go the gossip column, it's no go the Ceilidh,
All we want is a mother's help and a sugar-stick for the baby.

Willie Murray cut his thumb, couldn't count the damage,
Took the hide of an Ayrshire cow and used it for a bandage.
His brother caught three hundred cran when the seas were lavish,
Threw the bleeders back in the sea and went upon the parish.

It's no go the Herring Board, it's no go the Bible,
All we want is a packet of fags when our hands are idle.

It's no go the picture palace, it's no go the stadium,
It's no go the country cot with a pot of pink geraniums,
It's no go the Government grants, it's no go the elections,
Sit on your arse for fifty years and hang your hat on a pension.

It's no go my honey love, it's no go my poppet;
Work your hands from day to day, the winds will blow the profit.
The glass is falling hour by hour, the glass will fall forever,
But if you break the bloody glass you won't hold up the weather.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

Writing songs and writing poetry are different skills, as has been noted, and that they can all be classed as literature has also been pointed out. For what it's worth, I think the old bugger deserves it. One of my Favourites is "Changing of the guards". I haven't a clue what it's about, and after all this time, I bet Dylan couldn't tell you either. But try singing it - it's brilliant! and I must read some more of Louis Macneice - thanks Allan Conn.
Richard


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:00 AM

"One of my Favourites is "Changing of the guards". I haven't a clue what it's about, and after all this time,"
so you believe that songs should not be understandable, I disagree with you, I am sure Woody Guthrie would have disagreed with you, so never mind the man that inspired Dylan.
literature does include poetry, but it is more than just poetry. you think he should be awarded it for poetry? then award it for poetruy
a poets award should be for poetry but not literature.becaus personally i dont rate him as a poet either but that is my opinion and we have the right to differ, but to give him an award for literature instead of poetry not appropriate, literature is more than the category poetry.
an awrd for incomprehensible diction, or musical longevity or even song writing or even poetry is in my opinion more appropriate.
my argument is that he has been awarded a prize for the wrong category
personally i think his poetry is ok on occasions but nothing special


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

A number of poets have already won the Nobel Prize for literature, W.B. Yeats and Pablo Neruda, to name but two .The Category is Literature, that includes poetry....so, from that point of view he won in the right category.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:30 AM

Absolutely. Not for melody nor singing voice, that's for sure.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:07 AM

We Are Getting to the End

We are getting to the end of visioning
The impossible within this universe,
Such as that better whiles may follow worse,
And that our race may mend by reasoning.

We know that even as larks in cages sing
Unthoughtful of deliverance from the curse
That holds them lifelong in a latticed hearse,
We ply spasmodically our pleasuring.

And that when nations set them to lay waste
Their neighbours' heritage by foot and horse,
And hack their pleasant plains in festering seams,
They may again, – not warily, or from taste,
But tickled mad by some demonic force. –
Yes. We are getting to the end of dreams!
BY THOMAS HARDY
That night your great guns, unawares,
Shook all our coffins as we lay,
And broke the chancel window-squares,
We thought it was the Judgment-day

And sat upright. While drearisome
Arose the howl of wakened hounds:
The mouse let fall the altar-crumb,
The worms drew back into the mounds,

The glebe cow drooled. Till God called, "No;
It's gunnery practice out at sea
Just as before you went below;
The world is as it used to be:

"All nations striving strong to make
Red war yet redder. Mad as hatters
They do no more for Christés sake
Than you who are helpless in such matters.

"That this is not the judgment-hour
For some of them's a blessed thing,
For if it were they'd have to scour
Hell's floor for so much threatening....

"Ha, ha. It will be warmer when
I blow the trumpet (if indeed
I ever do; for you are men,
And rest eternal sorely need)."

So down we lay again. "I wonder,
Will the world ever saner be,"
Said one, "than when He sent us under
In our indifferent century!"

And many a skeleton shook his head.
"Instead of preaching forty year,"
My neighbour Parson Thirdly said,
"I wish I had stuck to pipes and beer."

Again the guns disturbed the hour,
Roaring their readiness to avenge,
As far inland as Stourton Tower,
And Camelot, and starlit Stonehenge.
and this again from Hardy.
Christmas: 1924

'Peace upon earth!' was said. We sing it,
And pay a million priests to bring it.
After two thousand years of mass
We've got as far as poison-gas.
When Bob Dylan, can write 3 poems as powerful as the above, perhaps he can seriously be considered as a poet in the mean time his award has devalued the prize, on occasions he writes fairly well, but he loves to be unclear in what he is trying to say, as far as i am concerned in his later years he has become an establishment fdolypop singer of a similiar ilk to MacCartney.
his one outstanding song is MASTERS OF WAR, The message is clear,to a lesser extent "times are changing" some of the others are catchy and tuneful but a bit lightweight[ mr tambourine man, boots of spanish leather]
blowing in the wind is pleasant, but lets compare it to where have all the flowers gone[ whose message is absolutely crystal clear] Dylan said about blowin in the wind
There ain't too much I can say about this song except that the answer is blowing in the wind. It ain't in no book or movie or TV show or discussion group. Man, it's in the wind — and it's blowing in the wind. Too many of these hip people are telling me where the answer is but oh I won't believe that. I still say it's in the wind and just like a restless piece of paper it's got to come down some ... But the only trouble is that no one picks up the answer when it comes down so not too many people get to see and know ... and then it flies away. I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it's wrong. I'm only 21 years old and I know that there's been too many ... You people over 21, you're older and smarter
The above comment is typical Bob Dylan, except that he doesnt mention this his possible inspoiration.
The theme may have been taken from a passage in Woody Guthrie's autobiography, Bound for Glory, in which Guthrie compared his political sensibility to newspapers blowing in the winds of New York City streets and alleys. Dylan was certainly familiar with Guthrie's work; his reading of it had been a major turning point in his intellectual and political development.
neither did Bob Dylan admit for a long time that one verse of dont think twice was borrowed from a singer called Paul Clayton LISTEN TO THIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6vxyTM3fO4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6vxyTM3fO4


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM

Chimes of Freedom
All Along the Watchtower
When the Ship Comes In
...just three

But nobody gives much of a crap what we think.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:12 AM

Bob Dylan, in my opinion an over rated poet, a good song writer, a man who knew how pursue a succesful career, and who at least once borrowed from someone else, who was no better a song writer than john lennon, imagine and masters of war are first class songs, that sums him up imo


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

Can't agree about Imagine. He was a bit up his own bum with all that stuff. It's all only opinions!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:56 PM

I would not describe myself as an avid Dylan fan, but am nevertheless pleased he has been recognised with such a prestigious award. On a wider front, issues of plagiarism, conscious or unconscious have been apparent in music for several hundred years. At college in the late 60s, one book on my reading list particularly attracted my attention : 'Bach the Borrower' by Norman Carrell (ISBN: 9780313222054). J.S.Bach was blessed with a phenomenal, aural memory, regularly 'borrowing' parts/whole works from unsuspecting organists to whom he listened. Today, Bach's behaviour would line the pockets of copyright lawyers.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 01:08 PM

Nigel, if you read up about the Dylan Paul Clayton dont think twice incident, Bob said something like i will use those lines man, so it wa conscious.
if you are pleased that he has been recognised with an inappropriate reward good, if he had been rewarded for musical longevity or song writing it would IMO, be more appropriate , i am not suggesting he is untalented, but for literature, feck off, why not art or cookery


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Allan Conn
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:36 PM

I never said I believed that songs should not be understandable. I simply said that not understanding a song lyric does not in itself mean it is not a good lyric. Like other forms of art song lyrics can be surreal. It may not be to everyone's liking but that is just personal preference.

As to what is song lyrics and what is lyrical poetry then I am simply pointing out that there is no real clear defining line. It seems to be simply that if something is accepted as being poetry, perhaps by being included in poetry volumes, then it is poetry. Unless someone can clearly explain what makes John Anderson or Auld Lang Syne acceptable as poetry whilst Dylan's best lyrics aren't!

As an aside this has me remembering that whilst doing my English Higher here in Scotland we studied various WWI 'poems' which included Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon but also "Us And Them" by Roger Waters of Pink Floyd.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:53 PM

Good soldier ~ "It just happened and happened good."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:57 PM

Oh dear, shades of '54' creeping in. You're wasting your time, Allan.
You might not like it, Dick, but all song lyrics are poetry.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

"Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl"

'The distance' is obviously 'outside'!

And 'a wildcat did growl'?? Clumsy English!

Dylan wrote a lot of dodgy lines like this. Yet he also wrote some amazing poetry.

I still think he's as deserving of the literature prize as many, for his influence as well as for his skill with words.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:56 PM

well, hopefully this award might get him a lot of publicity and possibly it might mean that it produces an push of interest for other folk music.
Steve Gardham has spoken.."but all song lyrics are poetry"
Steve you may think so, however i will draw your attention to this article just one of quite a few people who think differently to you        



Lyrics
A Poem Is Not A Lyric

By John Braheny


In the print medium, we have an exceptional legacy of poetry in all languages. Much of that poetry also lends itself to recitation and, in fact, may be written specifically to be recited. It is one of a poet's creative options, and if he chooses it, he knows that there are certain words or syllables that won't flow comfortably in speech but will work fine on paper. Other words that can conjure pictures when spoken passionately don't have nearly as much impact on paper. Dylan Thomas's poetry, though it does work on paper, was clearly written to be recited, and recordings of him or Brendan Behan reciting it can bring tears to the eyes. The point is that poetry lives in the media of both print and speech. Lyrics, on the other hand, live elsewhere.

A common misconception is that songs are poetry put to music. It is true that an immense number of treasured lyrics do work as well on the printed page as in a musical context. Writer/artists such as Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, and others possess vocal and writing styles so integrated that an unusually poetic phrase feels right at home in their styles, but would not work comfortably in another artist's style. Very few Joni Mitchell songs can be performed by another artist without imitating her style.

Performers such as these are considered "album artists." In other words, we buy their albums, not because they have a hit single, but because we like their style and the people we perceive them to be. We're likely to read their lyrics on the CD inserts and allow them a little more "poetic license," a little more abstraction and a few more obscure references that we're challenged to figure out. We don't mind because we're already fans.

The point is that, in most cases, a good poem does not necessarily make a good lyric. The obvious difference is that a lyric must function with music. It must be sung. A poem written for the printed page alone can use graphic style and unusual placement of words on a page to emphasize subtleties in meaning. It's not expected to rhyme. It can use identities (board/ bored) and sight rhymes (love/move). It can indulge in abstractions, because if the words aren't readily understood, our eyes and minds can stop for as long as we need to let them sink in and bounce around in the brain.

Much of what is referred to as "poetry" is actually verse. The difference is that between substance and form, imagination and craft. Verse is really anything that conforms to accepted metrical rules and structure. Anyone can write good verse that rhymes and has accurate meter, but if it's devoid of substance and imagination, it's still not poetry.

The lyric, like a poem, seeks to express an idea or emotion imaginatively in a condensed, yet powerful way. Music helps it do that. The late great composer/teacher/harmonica virtuoso Eddy Lawrence Manson, in his classes, asked students to walk across the room the same way several times. Each time, he plays different music, each selection expressing a different mood. The music gives a different impression about what that person is feeling, where he or she is going. You can use music to do that to a lyrical phrase too. The right—or wrong—music can give that spare and lean phrase exactly the right or wrong meaning. New lyricists have a tendency to minimize the importance of music as a vehicle to deliver their message.

Unlike in poetry, the words in a lyric must easily lend themselves to singing. Words like orange are not only impossible to rhyme, but difficult to sing. A lyricist needs to be able to imagine someone singing the words.

In writing lyrics for radio songs, we need to remember that listeners don't have the same amount of time to wonder what the words really mean as they do when they read poetry. They only have a quick three or four minutes..


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:07 PM

and i quote from the above
Anyone can write good verse that rhymes and has accurate meter, but if it's devoid of substance and imagination, it's still not poetry. and an example the The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll
Bob Dylan
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gathering
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes, on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
And you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.
this song is good poetry? are you serious? firstly its grammatically incorrect here
[And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger,] double negatives mean the opposite, then this
"And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:14 PM

in places the above reminds me of this.The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
With your numerous arches and pillars in so grand array
And your central girders, which seem to the eye
To be almost towering to the sky.
The greatest wonder of the day,
And a great beautification to the River Tay,
Most beautiful to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
That has caused the Emperor of Brazil to leave
His home far away, incognito in his dress,
And view thee ere he passed along en route to Inverness.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
The longest of the present day
That has ever crossed o'er a tidal river stream,
Most gigantic to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay !
Which will cause great rejoicing on the opening day
And hundreds of people will come from far away,
Also the Queen, most gorgeous to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
And prosperity to Provost Cox, who has given
Thirty thousand pounds and upwards away
In helping to erect the Bridge of the Tay,
Most handsome to be seen,
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
I hope that God will protect all passengers
By night and by day,
And that no accident will befall them while crossing
The Bridge of the Silvery Tay,
For that would be most awful to be seen
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay!
And prosperity to Messrs Bouche and Grothe,
The famous engineers of the present day,
Who have succeeded in erecting
The Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay,
Which stands unequalled to be seen
Near by Dundee and the Magdalen Green.

However, the McGonagle did understand about not using double negatives


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:21 PM

Did he not not indeed!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:28 PM

Woody Guthrie would have written a better song about Hattie Carroll.
Deportee
(also known as "Plane Wreck at Los Gatos")
Words by Woody Guthrie, Music by Martin Hoffman

The crops are all in and the peaches are rott'ning,
The oranges piled in their creosote dumps;
They're flying 'em back to the Mexican border
To pay all their money to wade back again

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"

My father's own father, he waded that river,
They took all the money he made in his life;
My brothers and sisters come working the fruit trees,
And they rode the truck till they took down and died.

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

We died in your hills, we died in your deserts,
We died in your valleys and died on your plains.
We died 'neath your trees and we died in your bushes,
Both sides of the river, we died just the same.

The sky plane caught fire over Los Gatos Canyon,
A fireball of lightning, and shook all our hills,
Who are all these friends, all scattered like dry leaves?
The radio says, "They are just deportees"

Is this the best way we can grow our big orchards?
Is this the best way we can grow our good fruit?
To fall like dry leaves to rot on my topsoil
And be called by no name except "deportees"?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:57 PM

Well Woody wrote simple words for simple people to understand, with devastating clarity and lyricism, no less poetic for that. He avoided cleverness, obscurantism and appeals to a weird in-crowd that find strange arrangements of words just as perplexing as me yet who pretend to understand them "deeply."

Poetry is about crystal-clear communication of ideas that we non-poets find inchoate, giving us that revelatory spark of sudden comprehension. Poets reach out to grab us by the throat, and the last thing they want is for us to be surrounded by perplexity and fog that they might have induced. Dylan fails abysmally on that count alone. If you want your literature to be something that you have to scratch your head over, Dylan may be for you. The art I like most is the art that reaches out to me, not the art that tries to confuse me via impenetrable language and to make me feel that I'm not in the in-crowd, thank you. And I'm not illiterate, and I do make the effort. Woody lives, but not through Bob Dylan.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:58 PM

The business of poets and other writers of literature is to make us get it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:00 PM

Brenda dubbed this guy? And what, pray, was the purpose of that?



Oh, you should have seen me with the poker man
I had a honey and I bet a grand
Just in the nick of time I looked at his hand

I was talking to an eskimo
Said he was hoping for a fall of snow
When up popped a sea lion, ready to go

Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go
Down to junior's farm where I wanna lay low
Low life, high life, oh, let's go
Take me down to junior's farm

Oh, at the houses of parliament
Everybody's talkin' 'bout the president
We all chip in for a bag of cement

Ollie hardy should have had more sense
He bought a gee-gee and he jumped the fence
All for the sake of a couple of pence


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:28 PM

Captain Byrd's Eye - back off for a little perspective...seven posts in 24 hours might show you are obsessing. Your points are well taken.

If you know Dylan then you know the meaning of "The Changing of the Guard." It is his life story

After 16 years of performance this marked a profound change in his style with two female backups and a saxophone intermission. He had been divorced, converted to Christianity.

Trager"s book has Dylan saying that the meaning changes every time he plays it and the subject is a thousand years old. The Biblical reference are to himself as the good shepherd in a market place of of thieves and swindlers, and of course the watch tower and fires.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

I enjoy Zimmerman MUCH more than frosty little cat feet that creep in over night Windows.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 05:18 AM

who was it said:
"with poetry the music is made to fit the words, with song the words are shoehorned into the music"

Now shoot me down with a ten foot feather but the constant in that epithet is words. Literature would be pretty blank without them.

And anyway the Nobel committee cited influence as well as their regard for Bob's words.

Queen Kristina of Sweden said "He who chooses his own path, needs no map". And Bob has certainly ploughed his own furrow.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand - He don't need no stinkin' badge.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:25 AM

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri - PM
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.
jeri knows better than those people on mudcat cos shes a Dylan fan


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:04 AM

>>It is true that an immense number of treasured lyrics do work as well on the printed page as in a musical context. Writer/artists such as Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, and others possess vocal and writing styles so integrated that an unusually poetic phrase feels right at home in their styles<<

Thanks for that Braheny quotation, Dick. As you posted it I presume you agree with it!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:37 AM

No,I do not agree with that particular exert that you have extracted from the whole quotation, an example that points to the stupidity of that remark is the lack of poetic style in this song. The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll
Bob Dylan
William Zanzinger killed poor Hattie Carroll
With a cane that he twirled around his diamond ring finger
At a Baltimore hotel society gathering
And the cops were called in and his weapon took from him
As they rode him in custody down to the station
And booked William Zanzinger for first-degree murder
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
William Zanzinger, who at twenty-four years
Owns a tobacco farm of six hundred acres
With rich wealthy parents who provide and protect him
And high office relations in the politics of Maryland
Reacted to his deed with a shrug of his shoulders
And swear words and sneering, and his tongue it was snarling
In a matter of minutes, on bail was out walking
But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
Hattie Carroll was a maid in the kitchen
She was fifty-one years old and gave birth to ten children
Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level
Got killed by a blow, lay slain by a cane
That sailed through the air and came down through the room
Doomed and determined to destroy all the gentle
And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger
And you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Take the rag away from your face
Now ain't the time for your tears
In the courtroom of honor, the judge pounded his gavel
To show that all's equal and that the courts are on the level
And that the strings in the books ain't pulled and persuaded
And that even the nobles get properly handled
Once that the cops have chased after and caught 'em
And that the ladder of law has no top and no bottom
Stared at the person who killed for no reason
Who just happened to be feelin' that way without warnin'
And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears.
this song is good poetry? are you serious? firstly its grammatically incorrect here
[And she never done nothing to William Zanzinger,] double negatives mean the opposite, then this
"And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table".
    This song does not have good verse it contains bad grammar that reverses the intended meaning, it's devoid of imagination,although it has substance it is poor poetry.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:51 AM

I agree it is only one song and some other efforts are considerably better, but if someone is awarded a nobel prize for poetry, i would expect a more consistent standard of high class poetry.
here is another poor effort.
Ballad in Plain D
Bob Dylan
I once loved a girl, her skin it was bronze
With the innocence of a lamb, she was gentle like a fawn
I courted her proudly but now she is gone
Gone as the season she's taken
In a young summer's youth, I stole her away
From her mother and sister, though close did they stay
Each one of them suffering from the failures of their day
With strings of guilt they tried hard to guide us
Of the two sisters, I loved the young
With sensitive instincts, she was the creative one
The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone
By the jealousy of others around her
For her parasite sister, I had no respect
Bound by her boredom, her pride to protect
Countless visions of the other she'd reflect
As a crutch for her scenes and her society
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused
The changes I was going through can't even be used
For the lies that I told her in hopes not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime
With unseen consciousness, I possessed in my grip
A magnificent mantelpiece, though its heart being chipped
Noticing not that I'd already slipped
To the sin of love's false security
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
'Till the tombstones of damage read me no questions but, "Please
What's wrong and what's exactly the matter?"
And so it did happen like it could have been foreseen
The timeless explosion of fantasy's dream
At the peak of the night, the king and the queen
Tumbled all down into pieces
"The tragic figure!" her sister did shout
"Leave her alone, god damn you, get out!"
And I in my armor, turning about
And nailing her in the ruins of her pettiness
Beneath a bare light bulb the plaster did pound
Her sister and I in a screaming battleground
And she in between, the victim of sound
Soon shattered as a child to the shadows
All is gone, all is gone, admit it, take flight
I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight
My mind it was mangled, I ran into the night
Leaving all of love's ashes behind me
The wind knocks my window, the room it is wet
The words to say I'm sorry, I haven't found yet
I think of her often and hope whoever she's met
Will be fully aware of how precious she is
Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:14 AM

this is a little better, but not much.Born in Red Hook, Brooklyn, in the year of who knows when
Opened up his eyes to the tune of an accordion
Always on the outside of whatever side there was
When they asked him why it had to be that way, well, he answered, just because
Larry was the oldest, Joey was next to last
They called Joe Crazy, the baby they called Kid Blast
Some say they lived off gambling and runnin' numbers too
It always seemed they got caught between the mob and the men in blue
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
There was talk they killed their rivals, but the truth was far from that
No one ever knew for sure where they were really at
When they tried to strangle Larry, Joey almost got hit the roof
He went out that night to seek revenge, thinkin' he was bulletproof
Then, the war broke out at the break of dawn, it emptied out the streets
Joey and his brothers suffered terrible defeats
Till they ventured out behind the lines and took five prisoners
They stashed them away in a basement, called them amateurs
The hostages were tremblin' when they heard a man exclaim
Let's blow this place to kingdom come, let Con Edison take the blame
But Joey stepped up, he raised his hand, said, we're not those kind of men
It's peace and quiet that we need to go back to work again
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
The police department hounded him, they called him Mr. Smith
They got him on conspiracy, they were never sure who with
What time is it? said the judge to Joey when they met
Five to ten, said Joey, the judge says, that's exactly what you get
He did ten years in Attica, reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich
They threw him in the hole one time for tryin' to stop a strike
His closest friends were black men 'cause they seemed to understand
What it's like to be in society with a shackle on your hand
They let him out in '71 he'd lost a little weight
But he dressed like Jimmy Cagney and I swear he did look great
He tried to find the way back into the life he left behind
To the boss he said, I have returned and now I want what's mine
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
It was true that in his later years he would not carry a gun
I'm around too many children, he'd say, they should never know of one
Yet he walked right into the clubhouse of his lifelong deadly foe
Emptied out the register, said, tell 'em it was Crazy Joe
One day they blew him down in a clam bar in New York
He could see it comin' through the door as he lifted up his fork
He pushed the table over to protect his family
Then he staggered out into the streets of Little Italy
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away
Sister Jacqueline and Carmela and mother Mary all did weep
I heard his best friend Frankie say, he ain't dead, he's just asleep
Then I saw the old man's limousine head back towards the grave
I guess he had to say one last goodbye to the son that he could not save
The sun turned cold over President Street and the town of Brooklyn mourned
They said a mass in the old church near the house where he was born
And someday if God's in heaven overlookin' His preserve
I know the men that shot him down will get what they deserve
Joey, Joey
King of the streets, child of clay
Joey, Joey
What made them want to come and blow you away


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

and a real stinker from the prize winner
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle all dressed in green
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle till the moon is blue
Wiggle till the moon sees you
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle in your boots and shoes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, you got nothing to lose
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, like a swarm of bees
Wiggle on your hands and knees
Wiggle to the front, wiggle to the rear
Wiggle till you wiggle right out of here
Wiggle till it opens, wiggle till it shuts
Wiggle till it bites, wiggle till it cuts
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle, you can raise the dead
Wiggle till you're high, wiggle till you're higher
Wiggle till you vomit fire
Wiggle till it whispers, wiggle till it hums
Wiggle till it answers, wiggle till it comes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like satin and silk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a pail of milk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, rattle and shake
Wiggle like a big fat snake


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:23 AM

All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?
All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?

All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?
All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?

All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?
All the tired horses in the sun
How am I supposed to get any riding done?



Read more: Bob Dylan - All The Tired Horses Lyrics | MetroLyrics


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:38 AM

Poems should have rhyme,
And regularity of rhythm;
And if you have the time,
Then you should always write 'em with 'em.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:58 AM

One line, Dick, could sum up yer man's literary prowess:

"I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more..."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:00 AM

Just proves to me if you don't get it, you don't get it. Shame the Nobel committee didn't ask those folks on Mudcat who know better than they do who should NOT have been given the award, if not who should have.

This!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:22 AM

Horse's mouth confession
"MY LYRICS DON'T MAKE SENSE"
How can you disagree with the man himself.
Dylan's attitude was summed up by his making his name out of protest songs and refusing to join Seeger et al on the Southern Freedom Rides - he was blackmailed by Singer/actor, Theodor Bikel paying his fare South.
A cyncal, somewhat talentless con artist who used people to get where he got and left them behind - ask Joan the Clone
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 12:41 PM

Thanks, Jim, you are spot on
one thing you and I agree on Ewan was a better songwriter than Bob


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:14 PM

Sour grapes produce British whine.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:26 PM

I am not saying that McColl didn't write a few good songs, but he is not in the same class as Dylan at all. Whatever one thinks of Dylan as a songwriter, he was a huge influence in a way that changed a lot about popular and folk music. In fact there are many writers who surpass McColl both in terms of music and influence. Just my thoughts on it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:32 PM

"Sour grapes produce British whine."
Bridges produce Trolls
If you admir the man so much why contradict him?
"but he is not in the same class as Dylan at all"
Matter of opinion
As far as I am concerned, Dylan never ose above the moon-June-tune level and his tunless singing of stolen lyrics were somehat rpetatively booooooring.
I'll take his word for it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:35 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jWFPLjYEaw
give me Guthrie or MacColl any time,


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

One line, Dick, could sum up yer man's literary prowess:

"He's a no-account son of a bitch, he's just like a scum of a scum bag of the earth, I should have sued him and put him in jail."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:39 PM

Peace on earth and mudcat too. Don't concede unless you win!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:50 PM

And, he's baaaack!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:59 AM

And now the Nobel committee are getting restive. Come, come out wherever you are! 😳


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 05:21 PM

I wonder whether he'll accept the cash.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 02:22 AM

"...like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain."

Leonard Cohen


Mudcatter Nobel votes = LA Dodgers' batting order. Go Cubbies!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

Nigel Paterson name-checking Bach reminded me of someone else, but that really is a pointer toward thread creep. You're talking the Baroque period there, and the Baroque era was mad, composer-wise.

England was swinging at one far end of the pendulum. Sometimes England is memorably iconoclastic, and defies artistic and cultural conventions being maintained in continental Europe, in the spirit of independence. And then there are eras like the time when Bach and Handel were around. No, the big Bach never made it to England, but Handel did, and not in order to compose the Messiah, but to compete for the English audiences for....the success of Italian music in general and opera in particular. Handel was in there duking it out with born-and-bred Italians who also wanted to cash in on the English craze for Italian music. That's what I mean by the far end of the pendulum -- at regular intervals in history, England will go altogether mad for a cultural fashion from another nation entirely....


....which always reminds me of the previous century, and Afro-American popular music taking England by storm.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,nock
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 03:55 PM

he has more money than all of you


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 04:45 PM

hi, troll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 05:45 PM

"Hi, troll" backatcha!

This thread has pretty much become solid trollery. Guy got a major award, and some people think he didn't deserve it. Just because he wrote a ton of songs that are well-known throughout the world, and changed the nature of music, they think maybe a guy in the UK that people outside the UK likely haven't heard of, who wrote a handful of songs, deserves it more than he did.

It's a flat-out, stupid bitch-fest. Bunch of bitter old farts got tired of privately telling kids to "get off my lawn" so decided to have a public hissy fit. Audience participation required.

Just let it go.
He got the award, and there's nothing anyone can do about it... except bitch and try to provoke other people. It's over. Let them keep going forever. I see no point in this.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:05 PM

You're over-reacting. It really isn't that bad. No-one is saying that some UK bloke should have had it more than him as far as I can see, though a controversial award of this sort is inevitably going to lead to comparisons with others who might have been considered. As for changing the nature of music, well I hardly think so. What kind of music are you talking about? Do expand...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:35 PM

Jeri, people outside the UK, like me, have heard of Peggy Seeger, which is how I heard of Ewan MacColl....many decades ago, thank you very much.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 06:54 PM

Hey nock, listen till the end

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lM_ePgwlM


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 07:02 PM

Bach changed the nature of music. Beethoven changed the nature of music. Wagner tried to but hit a dead end. A good few medieval, renaissance and other baroque chaps had a massive influence. Mozart changed opera forever. Beethoven was influenced by Palestrina and Handel. Haydn was the father of the symphony. One thing about all those guys is that they are all dead this last two hundred years or more (well, a tad less in the case of Wagner and Beethoven) but you've heard of all of 'em. Can probably hum a good few of their tunes, and their stars are not at all fading. I reckon we'll be listening to The Firebird and Daphnis and Rhapsody In Blue in 200 years too. Dylan in 200 years? Well maybe. Like the Beatles. But we have their records. Ludwig never made a single record. Herbert Von Karajan made hundreds of records, lionised at the time, yet almost every single one of them sounds horribly dated already. So, who knows. The Everly Brothers are victims of fashion in a way that Elvis isn't. You never can tell. My kids love the Beatles for their lyricism, though they were both born more then ten years after the split. They've both got tons of Elvis. Love him. But play them a bit of snarlin' Bob and they think you've gone stark staring mad. They're OK with the Byrds doing Mr Tambourine Man but that's about it. He's doomed, Nobel prize notwithstanding.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 23 Oct 16 - 07:50 PM

Sounds about right


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:46 AM

Beethoven was 'in' in the 1940s and Dylan in the 60s
What should the lads in the up-armoured Landies hear?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:48 AM

I suppose Dylana's biggest achievement is to influence obsessive bootleg collectors to obtain video & audio of every single one of his gigs, despite them being bloody awful!!!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Is that his transgender name?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Lou Judson
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:29 AM

"From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 16 - 07:47 PM

But it's true. Show me any Beatles lyrics that come anywhere near to Dylan's flowery, obscurantist nonsense. Shallow copies at best."

So, which is the copy of what? That river flows both ways...

Poetry and music do not need to make sense, only to make us feel!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:54 AM

this is nonsense.
Farewell Angelina

Farewell, Angelina, the bells of the crown
Are being stolen by bandits, I must follow the sound
The triangle tingles and the trumpets play slow
Farewell, Angelina, the sky is on fire and I must go.
There's no need for anger, there's no need for blame
There's nothing to prove, everything's still the same
Just a table standing empty by the edge of the sea
Means farewell, Angelina, the sky is trembling, and I must leave.
The jacks and queens have forsaked the courtyard
Fifty-two gypsies, now file past the guards
In the space where the deuce and the ace once ran wild
Farewell, Angelina, the sky is falling, I'll see you in a while.
See the cross-eyed pirates sitting perched in the sun
Shooting tin cans with a sawed-off shotgun
And the neighbours they clap and they cheer with each blast
But farewell, Angelina, the sky's changing colour and I must leave fast.
King Kong, little elves on the rooftops they dance
Valentino-type tangos while the make-up man's hands
Shut the eyes of the dead not to embarrass anyone
But farewell, Angelina, the sky is embarrassed and I must be gone.
The machine guns are roaring, the puppets heave rocks
And fiends nail time bombs to the hands of the clocks
Call me any name you like, I will never deny it
But farewell, Angelina, the sky is erupting, I must go where it's quiet.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 08:57 AM

You either get it or you don't.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 09:14 AM

Well that's what I mean. Dylan generates a self-appointed in-crowd who claim to "get it" whereas those of us who love lyrical and communicative art are presumed to be excluded. I call that sort of pretentiousness, which Bob surely didn't intend, a massive downside. I suppose you "get" Warhol's tins of soup too. 😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:04 PM

Come on,Explain Farewell Angelina, its gibberish set to a nice tune or what is it?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:13 PM

Fair one bonzo


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:39 PM

In response to GSS I quote from ee cummings:

beware of heartless them
(given the scalpel,they dissect a kiss;
or,sold the reason,they undream a dream)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:45 PM

Re: Farewell Angelina..great song, great lyrics, no gibberish. Not everything is simple, there are some things we just have to try a little harder to understand or, perhaps just enjoy things for what they are. If you get nothing out of it, perhaps it is not the fault of the write, but the impatience of the reader.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:50 PM

Explain it please,give us your understanding. mean while can we compare arguably Dylans best song masters of war, and universal soldier.
He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years
He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you
And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls
But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on
He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war
Songwriters: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Masters of War
Bob Dylan
Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you sit back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
While the young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
By the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 01:53 PM

"Rock and roll legend, Bob Dylan, acknowledged in a recent interview that he has perpetuated an elaborate hoax on the public for more than fifty years. 'I can't sing, half of the time I don't even say real words, I just mumble, and my lyrics make no sense.'...

...Dylan, often referred to as a 'poetic genius,' claims he never knew what people were talking about. 'How profound is "don't want to be a bum, you better chew gum. The pump don't work 'cause the vandals stole the handles?" I just made up simple rhymes. Any child could have done what I did.'...

...'Apparently, Lincoln was wrong. You can fool all of the people, all of the time,' Dylan added."

[Rolling Stone]


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

If it has to be "explained" to you there is no point. The point is to take it for what it is. The problem isn't his, its tours.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:13 PM

My goodness, the know-it-all Brit doesn't recognize someone taking the piss! Har, har that's a larf and a harf.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:16 PM

My previous comment directed at Shaw, of course, not HiLo.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 02:40 PM

Thanks, mrrzy, for the link to the Guardian update. Of course, now the Dylan website has removed the reference to winning the Nobel Prize for Literature.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:03 PM

Goodbye Angelina-

Farewell Angelina
The bells of the crown
Are being stolen by bandits
I must follow the sound
The triangle tingles




Jester's crown replaced by the Early Warning System on Mormond Hill [being the original lyric from "Farewell to Tarwathie"]?

www.secretscotland.org.uk/index.php/Secrets/MormondHill

www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=40025


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:32 PM

There is no PROBLEM, it is pseudish nonsense , you cannot explain what you do not understand, if you do understand this waffle please explain it, what is king kong doing for feck sake in this song, this is just a hoax.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 03:59 PM

There's nothing to explain, Dick. There's nothing deep going on. There isn't actually the NEED for anything deep to be going on. It's pop music fer chrissake. Let them see deepness where there is none, the poor deluded souls. Is there no limit to the fundamental depth of these people's shallowness?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 04:07 PM

Good soldier - maybe Mr Dylan was only taking us back to simpler times with The Mighty Kong swatting at aeroplanes with machine guns [the "Ma Deuce" M2 Browning perhaps] then 1964's B52s and Doomsday Clocks.

Brilliant song


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:11 PM

GSS "...pseudish nonsense ...."
sounds like that to me too
but there are some attempts at explanations here
thread.cfm?threadid=48629


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:21 PM

Well, poetry is often about images. If you don't get that.. fine but if you don't understand it,that does not diminish the imagery of it, it just means you don't get it. To accuse those who do "get" it of shallowness , is well...pompous, or worse. Just my thoughts.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:41 PM

Well, HiLo, it took a clear-headed little boy to reveal to the emperor's sycophants that the great man was actually naked. Your valiant explanation of Dylan's "poetry" is suffering from strain.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 05:50 PM

Shakespeare's fist might have lost him his head.
Speaking truth to power, a dangerous occupation.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 06:51 PM

No Steve! It isn,t suffering from strain at all. I suspect that you have not listened to a lot of Dylan. people who appreciate him are not "sycophants", they just see his lyrics in different way.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:29 PM

If you get nothing out of it, perhaps it is not the fault of the write, but the impatience of the reader.

Or the reader being better read than any Dylan fan, so they know the literary sources he was crudely ripping off (i.e. large chunks of the mid-century Anglophone modernist poetic tradition).

If you've got Ezra Pound, Edith Sitwell, George Barker, Louis MacNeice, Kathleen Raine, Allen Ginsberg and Dylan Thomas to compare him with, the derivativeness of Dylan's stuff is hard to put up with.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 16 - 07:53 PM

And many more worthies even than those. I often disagree with Dick, but his tactic of bombarding us with Dylan's utter ridiculousness in this thread has been a master stroke. Dick has forced Bob's rather uncritical aficionados to resort to the highly-predictable moan that we non-members of the in-crowd "don't get it." Well, if that's what fifty years of Bob have reduced you to, maybe you should think about studying some real literature instead!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 12:40 AM

Your list is an interesting one Jack ! Steve , you are doing your specialty again, banging on about things you clearly know. Little about . Say good night to the people Gracie.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:30 AM

Well if you must resort to such desperate slights, who am I to stop you. You are clearly working on the assumption that I'm having a pop at Bob's oeuvre not having experienced any of it. A dangerous assumption, conceivably born of bitterness and insecurity because your hero's work is being questioned and you're not confident that there's no substance in the criticism. A bit like an atheist confronting a God-squadder, eh? That's what having heroes does for you. My hero is Beethoven. Shoot.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:57 AM

You clearly have not read the entire thread. I am a fan of Dylan's work, he is not my hero , he is simply one of many songwriters I admire .if you dislike him or think his work shallow, fine but to suggest that we are all uncritical afficianados or perhaps we are unfamiliar with real literatur is not a dangerous assumption, it is an ill informed and rather pompous one .


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:09 AM

That's just nonsense from start to finish, except where you surmise that I think his work is shallow, though I don't think it all is, not by a long chalk. To me, he's a pop singer who has written some good songs, mostly a very long time ago, a few jewels in a rather large crock of shite. The older I get the less I tend to see things in black and white. I'm sorry you feel so threatened. I'm just not keen to be constantly told that I "don't get it" by Dylan in-crowders who don't share my scepticism, you included, unfortunately. Just biting back ever so gently, that's all.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:13 AM

Grow up for gods sake. People disagree with, get over it,


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:16 AM

Well, three people in this thread, including you, have resorted to the lame, dismal accusation that demurrers "don't get it." You might be amazed to discover just how much art, literature, music and other diverse culture some of us "get." It isn't much of a debate on that level, though, is it? And it would be nice to not be told to "grow up" by someone with that particular bee in his bonnet, frankly. Have another last word then drop it, HiLo.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:35 AM

Shaw brings his rancor to yet another thread.......idiot wind.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:18 AM

Wonder why people spend so much time praising the work of somebody who has admitted it is meaningless crap.
"Shaw brings his rancor to yet another thread"
On second thoughts - no I don't, taking all into consideration
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 08:26 AM

mean while here in my opinion is a poem of note, adersved winner of the prize
Between my finger and my thumb
The squat pen rests; snug as a gun.

Under my window, a clean rasping sound
When the spade sinks into gravelly ground:
My father, digging. I look down

Till his straining rump among the flowerbeds
Bends low, comes up twenty years away
Stooping in rhythm through potato drills
Where he was digging.

The coarse boot nestled on the lug, the shaft
Against the inside knee was levered firmly.
He rooted out tall tops, buried the bright edge deep
To scatter new potatoes that we picked,
Loving their cool hardness in our hands.

By God, the old man could handle a spade.
Just like his old man.

My grandfather cut more turf in a day
Than any other man on Toner's bog.
Once I carried him milk in a bottle
Corked sloppily with paper. He straightened up
To drink it, then fell to right away
Nicking and slicing neatly, heaving sods
Over his shoulder, going down and down
For the good turf. Digging.

The cold smell of potato mould, the squelch and slap
Of soggy peat, the curt cuts of an edge
Through living roots awaken in my head.
But I've no spade to follow men like them.

Between my finger and my thumb
The squat pen rests.
I'll dig with it.
IN MY OPINION, Bob Dylan has not written anything that compares with this, Seamus Justin Heaney was an Irish poet, playwright, translator and lecturer, and the recipient of the 1995 Nobel Prize in Literature.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:09 AM

'S all right, Jim. He was just digging for a word that rhymes with his nickname when he came up with "rancor." 😉


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:38 AM

So apparently GSS doesn't "get it" and he wants us all to know that.

Poetry, not songs, or at least not the sort Dick likes, inspire thoughts and feelings in those who hear it. You can't explain what it means, when it means something different to everyone who hears it. They will never get it, then will attempt to make you feel stupid because of their lack of understanding. I won't own someone else's cluelessness, especially when it's because I don't think they really want to understand.

Keb, go into a supermarket of your choice. Ask the first 20 people you meet if they like Dylan. My guess is you'll get mostly "yes" or "no" answers. Then ask them if they like MacColl. You'll probably get a lot of "who!?" responses.

Then fly to Mexico, or Bolivia, or South Korea, and do the same experiment. I know who MacColl is. I like his music. I just don't think it's a valid comparison.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 10:41 AM

Apparently a Nobel Foundation spokesperson has called Dylan "impolite and arrogant" for not acknowledging the Nobel Prize for Literature.

The odd thing is that, according to the Nobel rules, you cannot actually refuse the prize if you're chosen for it - you become a Laureate whether you like it or not! (If you choose not to make the relevant speech/concert/blah within 6 months of being awarded the Laureate, then you don't get the cash that comes with the the award.)

But you can't refuse the Laureateship. If they say you're a Laureate, then you are one, and nothing in the world can alter that fact. How arrogant of the Nobel Foundation is that?

I note that no-one in the thread has yet queried the point of any awards like the Nobel Prize, the Man Booker Prize, etc. - all a waste of space in my humble opinion. The awarding of a prize doesn't make the object or point of that prize any worse or better for getting it. In Dylan's case, his lyrics are what they are - (I know very little about them and care less) - and will not be a whit different whether he's a prizewinner or not. If you're a fan - enjoy them. If not, you won't be bothered anyway.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 12:02 PM

President Obama said in a Rolling Stone interview:
Here's what I love about Dylan: He was exactly as you'd expect he would be. He wouldn't come to the rehearsal; usually, all these guys are practicing before the set in the evening. He didn't want to take a picture with me; usually all the talent is dying to take a picture with me and Michelle before the show, but he didn't show up to that. He came in and played "The Times They Are A-Changin'." A beautiful rendition. The guy is so steeped in this stuff that he can just come up with some new arrangement, and the song sounds completely different. Finishes the song, steps off the stage — I'm sitting right in the front row — comes up, shakes my hand, sort of tips his head, gives me just a little grin, and then leaves. And that was it — then he left. That was our only interaction with him. And I thought: That's how you want Bob Dylan, right? You don't want him to be all cheesin' and grinnin' with you. You want him to be a little skeptical about the whole enterprise. So that was a real treat.
My opinion is that once someone starts to do what they do for the awards, they're not who everybody wanted to see. Some awards, maybe most, are hoops that are held up for the "honoree" to jump through. It's like paying somebody in advance for something you want from them, when they may not want to give it. If you're giving somebody something because you expect something from them, it's not an award, it's something else. Something that involves a little bit of domination.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 12:29 PM

JERI,. Please explain what dylan means in farewell angelina, ballad in plain d and wiggle,
the lonesome death of hattie carroll is a good subject, its clear what he means but it in my opinion not good poetry.
Please enlighten me.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:20 PM

Dick, I'm fine with you not understanding it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:25 PM

"Keb, go into a supermarket of your choice. Ask the first 20 people you meet if they like Dylan. My guess is you'll get mostly "yes" or "no" answers. Then ask them if they like MacColl. You'll probably get a lot of "who!?" responses."
interesting, since when have supermarkets been the places where decisions are made on anything other than what groceries to buy.
logially, Keb, go into a Library of your choice.Ask the the first 20 people you meet if they like white slice bread my guess is youll probably mostly yes or no answers. Then ask them if they like CHIA SEEDS.Youll probably get a lot of "what is that" responses.
Because someone is a well known performer proves nothing, it certainly gives us any insight into Dylans 3 efforts that i have previously mentioned.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

...or to quote myself from above, which you didn't see:
Poetry, not songs, or at least not the sort Dick likes, inspire thoughts and feelings in those who hear it. You can't explain what it means, when it means something different to everyone who hears it. They will never get it, then will attempt to make you feel stupid because of their lack of understanding. I won't own someone else's cluelessness, especially when it's because I don't think they really want to understand.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

should read it certainly does NOT give us any insight into Dylans 3 efforts that i have previously mentioned.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:33 PM

Dylan is behaving in the same way you'd expect Donald Trump to if he got the Peace Prize.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 01:50 PM

You're thrashing a dead horse, Dick.

Imagine a situation where there are three parallel committees for the Man Booker Prize for Literature - each committee made up of 5 judges - all simultaneously sitting and discussing the same shortlist. I guess it would be unlikely that all three committees would choose the same winner - or perhaps they would - or perhaps two would choose the same one - or perhaps all three would choose a different winner.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying that none of the judges at a competition has perfect judgement, or indeed any judgement that necessarily matches another's. Furthermore, the relative merits or demerits of any of the offerings are exactly that - relative.

So, as a judge of poetic literature, you find Dylan lacking in merit; others here do not find him lacking in merit. But the explanation of why will never come to a resolution. Just accept that you have your opinion, which is yours to hold - why demand that anyone should try to change it for you.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:07 PM

It's this rather strange concept of "getting it" that I don't get. 😉 It implies some kind of lack. Well in my case (and, whilst not wishing to blow my own trumpet, I don't think I'm an illiterate sort of chap), I've listened to a lot of his stuff, especially in the earlier years when my best mate at school shoved Dylan down my throat somewhat, and came to the conclusion that much of his literary output is somewhat unconnected, rambling and incoherent, too frequently with no real effort to communicate but leaving us with a jumbled mess of words to try to sort out, the literary equivalent of Tracey Emin's unmade bed. That doesn't preclude the possibility that there might be some merit in some of it, but what he does isn't what artists do. Perhaps "not getting it" means not having the patience to engage with someone who doesn't seem to be that bothered about anyone else, who puts little value on the concept of transaction.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:10 PM

My first line should have said "not getting it."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 02:25 PM

Exactly, Steve. You and I did o level English lit, We were taught to analyse and understand what Authors of literature were trying to tell us. No teacher of any merit would just say you just do not get it.
no, one on this forum, has yet tried to explain What Dylan is trying to tell us in the 3 examples I have previously quoted, its not unreasonable to assume they do not understand it either you just dont get it, is a cop out


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM

Words come from the heart - does any man know your heart?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:20 PM

Apparently not. Only G_d knows (and apparently The Nobel Committee)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:24 PM

Get over it. Your making this poor guy sound like some sort of slouch.
There's much more to this then is apparent.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:27 PM

And a another thing, you suck, so there!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:45 PM

You're making yourself about as clear as the average Dylan song...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

Sorry, I was a little cross )+:


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 03:49 PM

Please carry on I'm back to the rafters


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 04:02 PM

Something no one has yet asked, is why Bob has not awarded the Nobel Committee a Dylan Prize in return.

How ungracious can you get? ;-)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 05:21 PM

I'm not going to go into particulars.
If I explain (I'm saying this again, but maybe it will be clearer this time), I'll be explaining what it means to ME, and it won't make sense to you a it won't be relevant.
The poems/songs are (in my opinion) intended to evoke feelings. One of my favorite songs really doesn't make any sense if you try to analyze it. I first heard it on the radio while driving. The words came fast enough to register, but they only evoked images, and were gone, and it wasn't possible to linger long enough to nail down concrete meanings. You had no choice but to let the words wash over you and just feel.

So when I say someone "doesn't get it", what I mean isn't that they don't understand the words or their meaning, but they don't understand how to listen to that provocative vagueness and make sense of it. Usually that happens because the person simply doesn't like it. They may like things that have only one single indisputable meaning. I'm guessing that's what Dick prefers, maybe Jim and other folks who don't like Dylan. Maybe they resent having to interpret, to fill in the blanks. I like the blanks.

If you want me to explain how my brain works, and why Dylan's songs have meaning for me when they don't have any for you, well, I'm not stupid enough to try.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:11 PM

Well try applying that to other forms of art. It doesn't wash. Caravaggio reached out to you and grabbed you by the lapels. Shakespeare's masterly lyricism and humanity reaches out to people all over the world. Mozart had to make his operas funny, tuneful and riddled with human imperfections and dubious morality to get the crowds in, and his good taste and peerless understanding of his musical heritage turned them into masterpieces that will live forever. Beethoven was totally deaf by the time he wrote his greatest works, and each and every one of them pulls you right into his enforced private world. He wanted you in. John Betjeman's poems, apparently slight as they are, set out to crystallise for us the quirkiness of unpretentious middle England. They all succeeded as artists because they reached out. That's the pattern. An artist isn't an artist unless his priority is to communicate. You don't communicate by using our beautiful language to convolute words into disjointed forms that make it more difficult for people to cut through. If you're not crystallising ideas for people that they find hard to crystallise for themselves, you're failing as an artist. Dylan is offhand, dour, rude and uncommunicative. He's actually made those traits his trademark. He doesn't seem to care about his words and you'll just have to help yourself. He doesn't value them and, going from what he's said, he even recoils from them. There is little sign of any evolution of his art in forty years. But people stick with him because he's a cult. His supporters will defend him to the hilt, and one of those means of defence is to make him exclusive, rather mystical, and to tell demurrers that they "don't get it." The emperor may not quite be naked, but a good few threadbare patches are showing. In times to come, it could well be that discussion of the peculiarity of his cult status will outlive discussion of his artistic legacy.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,nock
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:30 PM

pauperback will you please feed steve some tomato soup


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:30 PM

And, by the way, good art doesn't spoonfeed. It gives you work to do. But it gives you that work to do by showing it to you, not by laying linguistic obstacles in your path. Good art confronts and challenges you but it doesn't obstruct. Dick, with whom I disagree on a good few things, has set you a challenge that you just can't meet, that just makes you cross instead. Simple but effective. Giving you Bob's literature and asking you to explain. But all you can say is that it gives you feelings. No mention of edification through enlightenment. He's done a bloody good job in this thread, has Dick. Kudos, Dick, but I promise to fall out with you again next week. 😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 06:48 PM

My lycopene intake has been huge these last few days, nock. This Mediterranean diet I'm on (and I don't ignore the Negroamaro and the Primitivo and the Nero d'Avola) is damn good for me, though perhaps with a little too much mozzarella. Take a ripe avocado and slice it. Chop up half a pound of the tastiest tomatoes you can find. Slice up a nice big ball of mozzarella. Layer these ingredients informally in a bowl and sprinkle with salt. Tear up some fresh basil over the lot and sprinkle everything with a good dose of the finest olive oil you have. Enjoy with a bit of fresh crusty bread and a bottle of Negroamaro. Tricolore salad with all the colours of the Italian flag. Put on your favourite Dylan album. You'll live forever, and even Dylan fanatics will forgive me once you've eaten this. If it really has to be tomato soup, it has to be pappa di pomodoro for me, cucina povera at its finest. Pick the bones out of that lot, non-Italian speaking Bob fans.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,nock
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:08 PM

thanks steve. he's just not there.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 16 - 07:18 PM

"maybe Jim and other folks who don't like Dylan. "
It really isn't a matter of liking or disliking him - I dislike lots of music and lots of singers, but that's down to my taste - not what they are providing for their fans.
I tried to like Dylan so hard in the early days - I really did - if, for no other reason than the fact that all my mates did.
Nothing - chewing gum you chewed on for a bit which, after a short time, lost its taste - like the bit Tommy Steele stuck on his bedpost overnight.
I worked hard at trying to understand what he did and after several years, came to the conclusion that it was totally pretentious - as phony as the guff spouted by wine buffs.
My opinion was vindicate by his own confession that what he wrote had no meaning.
It really would help here if one of his fans addressed what he had to say about his work.
I was very taken by what I believe to be a brilliant anonymous piece of satire on Dylan which appeared in one of the better folk magazines of the 1960s.
It reflects Dylan's work when he was regarded as a folk singer – another of those strange anomalies is that, while he got to the point where he openly moved from Folk to Pop, and said as much when he wrote:
"Strike another match, go start anew
And it's all over now, baby blue"
His fans never did and continued to argue for him being "folk", which he had openly rejected.
I believe this did a great deal of damage to real folk music – damage it never really recovered from in Britain and the U.S.
Jim Carroll

Speedwell's confessions cont.
I discover Bobbie Dylan's secret
Jack Speedwell.
Jack Speedwell, disguised as a down-at-heel literary man and rogue journalist, haunts the purlieus of the British folk scene.
Originally a foundling, Speedwell was brought up and educated by lay-brothers attached to an obscure sect of Jehosophart's Wetnoses. By training and temperament he was destined to spend his life writing inoffensive squibs for Song and Dance, organ of the EFDSS. Captured by sinister Chinese agents, he is subjected to prolonged brainwashing and then let loose upon the unsuspecting world of the folk revival. There, carrying out the post-hypnotic commands of his erstwhile captors, he embarks upon the foul task of filtering the poison of ideas into the atmosphere of love and togetherness which surrounds the revival. One of the main targets for his hatred is the boy-genius, B. Dylan. Speedwell never questions the blind forces which urge him on to destroy the public image of this brilliant youth until one day he reads a review written by the famous seminarist, the Reverend Sydney Carter, D.D. and, as a result, his mind is restored to its former balance. Horrified by the realisation of the damage which his evil criticism must have wrought upon virgin minds, Speedwell determines to make amends by publicly confessing his sins.   NOW READ ON:

Consider this couplet from God on your side:

Though they murdered 6 million, in the ovens they fried,
The Germans now too have God on their side,

The tremendous sweep of this couplet, with the extraordinary simplicity of the diction, cannot he matched outside of McGonigal's immortal poem on The Tay Bridge Disaster:

So the train mov'd slowly along the Bridge of Tay
Until it was about mid-day,
Then the central girders with a crash gave way,
And down went the train and passengers into the Tay.

The Storm-fiend did loudly bray
Because ninety lives had been taken away,
On the last Sabbath Day of 1879,
Which will be remembered for a very long time.

Note the way that both these masters make use of the evocative phrase. What could he more stirring than the frying image in Bobby's poem? Everyone in these islands who has ever queued for fish-and-chips and idly read the frying schedule above the great pans will he moved by it.
But Bobby's tremendous craftmanship is seen at its best in Fare thee well, my own true love; the song on which The Leaving of Liverpool was based. The opening stanza is a model of economy:

Oh, it's fare thee well, my darlin' true,
I'm a-leavin' in the first hour of the morn;
I'm off for the Bay of Mexico,
Or maybe the coast of Californ.

The omission of the final "i-a, is a touch of genius, and by effecting it, Bobby Dylan has opened up the road to a completely new and simplified rhyming system.
Just think of its immense possibilities when applied to British place-names; for example:

Do not weep for me, my dear,
For soon 1'll be returning;
By tomorrow afternoon
I'11 be back with you in Birming.

Again:
Goodbye, old girl, I'm leavin' you,
It's back to my old ranch;
Soon I'll be in Calif
Leaving you in Manch.
Or:
Mother, mother, I am hungry,
What is on the shelf?
Alas, dear daughter, times are hard
Now we are in Belf.

It is equally effective in other metrical forms, such, as:

Aberd, Aberd,
Prettiest place I ever heard.

In the second stanza of Fare thee well, Bobby introduces yet another brilliant literary innovation in the phrase:

I'm a'travellin' on a path-beaten trail.

"Path-beaten trail" -what tremendous possibilities are opened up by this kind of usage. For example:

0, my dearest darling, pity my achin' feet
As I proceed upon my way, down the roady street.

Or:
One day I will come back to you,
Along the streety avenue.

These examples by no means exhaust Bobby's amazing ingenuity, there are similar revolutionary ideas of composition to he found throughout all his work; British songwriters would do well to study them.
There! I feel better for having written that. It is as if a great burden had been removed from my shoulders and it is my fervent hope that my humble words will have the effect of wiping out all those dreadful things I once wrote about Bobby. Soon I will he completely cleansed of all my uncharitable tendencies for, in the near future, I intend to make restitution to Joanie, too. Yes, Joanie-pony, one day I will he worthy of you and people will point at me and say "There goes the most amiable fellow in the world."

Folk Music magazine; Vol. 1 No 10. 1964


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:26 AM

Steve (and others)- out of curiosity, what do you make of Joyce, particularly "Ulysses" and "Finnegan's Wake"? I've had a crack at "Ulysses" no less than three times over the years, but rarely got beyond half a dozen pages. Now, I've read that the best way to understand the book is to just let the words flow in one continuous rhythm - without a conscious attempt at understanding - and let the ideas wash into your mind. Doesn't particularly work for me, but I get the idea. So I fail the Joyce test.

Apparently "Finnegan's Wake" is one of the most famous, unread books of all time - perfect for a Nobel Prize, wouldn't you say?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:56 AM

Frisco Californ - the beat town, ever heard of it?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 05:00 AM

I think that Italian cat Beethoven had a shack there


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 08:35 AM

Jim – you do realise that some of us are aware of who Jack Speedwell was and therefore we are acutely aware of his feelings towards Bob Dylan. Jack Speedwell's alter ego took plenty opportunity to use existing tunes to fit his own words – and no problem with that; but to focus on what was one of Dylan's very early works, which didn't feature on a major album, but seemed to make up the residue of his written work during that youthful period is unnecessary in the extreme. The same way as the present detractors have focussed on "Wiggle, Wiggle" probably his worst ever song which opens one of his worst albums. How have they missed "Rainy Day Women"? In various publications of the day there are songs by Jack Speedwell's alter ego and his friends that don't quite match his great works. BTW well said Will; do they also "get" Picasso, Pharaoh Sanders, Roy Harper, and Miles Davis??


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 03:03 PM

They say princes learn no art truly, but the art of horsemanship. The reason is, the brave beast is no flatterer. He will throw a prince as soon as his groom.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:30 PM

Well, they'll stone ya when you're trying to be so good
They'll stone ya just a-like they said they would
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to go home
Then they'll stone ya when you're there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
Well, they'll stone ya when you're walkin' 'long the street
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to keep your seat
They'll stone ya when you're walkin' on the floor
They'll stone ya when you're walkin' to the door
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
They'll stone ya when you're at the breakfast table
They'll stone ya when you are young and able
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to make a buck
They'll stone ya and then they'll say "good luck"
Tell ya what, I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
Well, They'll stone you and say that it's the end
Then they'll stone you and then they'll come back again
They'll stone you when you're riding in your car
They'll stone you when you're playing your guitar
Yes, but I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
Well, they'll stone you when you walk all alone
They'll stone you when you are walking home
They'll stone you and then say you are brave
They'll stone you when you are set down in your grave
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned.
You think this is a great song?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 04:44 PM

Dave please explain who is supposed to be stoning people when they are playing their guitar or riding in their car or all the other places, and are you in agreement with the idea that everybody must get out of their head on drugs?.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 05:14 PM

Here's an amusing Dylan/Nobel clip from a BBC radio comedy about the forthcoming US election (listen from 09:00):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07z7290


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:16 PM

The dogs bark, and yet the caravan moves on....


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

Joan Baez, to the Arizona Republic.

"I think his manners suck, and his words deserve the Nobel Prize.

"Well, wouldn't you call back and say "Gee, thanks" if you got the Nobel Prize?
You know, 'I got the message'!"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:32 PM

You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:34 PM

We live in a political world
Where mercy walks the plank,
Life is in mirrors, death disappears
Up the steps into the nearest bank.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:36 PM

Strange how people who suffer together have stronger connections than those who are most content.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 26 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

My patron saint is a-fighting with a ghost. He's always off somewhere when I need him most.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 02:44 AM

You think this is a great song?
No - I think it is one of his poorer efforts; I was just expressing surprise that this one had been overlooked by his detractors on this forum.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 03:02 AM

I expect consistency of good writing to be one of the considerations that a judge should think about when awarding a prize, in my opinion Dylans writing is a Curates Egg good and bad in places.
I do think Miles Davis played enjoyable music, and i have seen evidence that Picasso could draw, none of them were awarded the Nobel prize for Literature, but why not, the prize has evidently become meaningless


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 05:32 AM

Your comparing a 20 year old's work to a 70 year old's work then suggesting the prize meaningless? Ben Jonson was right: the enemy of art is ignorance.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 05:35 AM

We are not detractors. We are sceptical critics. Dick is throwing out example after example of his awfulness - not difficult - but not saying that all his work is worthless. So far, Bob's fans have responded by telling us that we don't get it and that his music "evokes feelings," etc., or by simply getting all shirty and defensive. Dick talks about consistency. It's a good bet that most great artists have delivered themselves of plenty of turkeys, but the difference is that they tend to suppress them, throwing on the fire manuscripts or canvases they've spent months agonising over or making painstaking revisions. It seems that Dylan doesn't really care about the quality or consistency of his output in that way (by their fruits...). It's all out here, the good, the bad and the ugly. It's for us to pick over it while he's off elsewhere. No artistic reaching out. What it has all consistently done is make him quite well off. No difference in aspiration there from other artists, of course, but most are far more solicitous as to their reputation and legacy and are far less offhand about their output (he's actually rubbished his!) - and far more responsive to its recipients.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 05:42 AM

Well the aspiration of art is to enlighten, to edify through knowledge and insight. It sounds like Ben Jonson was being snobbish. Ignorance is one of the human attributes that art confronts, not sees as its enemy. The logical conclusion of Jonson's remark is that the safest bet is to "just give the punters what they want." I've even heard that said in pub sessions!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 06:34 AM

Ah Diddums, sorry, i didn't mean to sneak-up on you like that, (don't you hate when that happens?) Heheh


~K~


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 06:47 AM

Couldn't resist steve


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Sidewinder.
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:27 AM

"Sooner or Later, one of us must know......."

Regards

Sidewinder.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Having just struggled through this thread for the first time, there is is one question that I would like to ask.....

Is there a Nobel prize for cut'n'paste?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 08:04 AM

Well there's a lot of it admittedly, but Dick has made the point that a good deal of dross has emanated from Bob's pen. One way of demonstrating the sheer amount of that dross is to show it to us. Crude but effective! It's certainly caused a fair bit of buttock-shuffling around here.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 10:41 PM

Descent of you. And what effect were you looking for?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 12:58 PM

To offer 'Another Side of Bob Dylan' to this lengthy literary critique audience here are a few of his great recordings (several bootleg cds) -

Collection of Dylan CDs


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 02:04 PM

last try


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 03:41 PM

Rex Murphy nailed it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 04:52 PM

For the benefit of future generations: my previous post with the 'last try' blickie links to a short talk from Rex Murphy, on Dylan, the Nobel, and his silence.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,nock
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 10:09 PM

in ceremonies of the horsemen even a pawn must hold a grudge

talent/archaic measurement of weight of gold or silver

he has more money then all of you

backatcha paupers


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,nock
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 10:10 PM

dear sir or madam can you read my book


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:16 AM

'I was left speechless' : Bob Dylan breaks two-week silence over Nobel prize


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:49 AM

Interesting , in light of above discussion that the link above has Dylan speaking of writing a hundred bad songs before writing a good one. That does seem both subjective and exaggerated for emphasis but I guess most of us know that feeling of not being satisfied with our own productions. It may well be fortuoutous that many songs deemed poor were preserved and largely appreciated by listeners.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:58 AM

One of the things about poetry is that it doesn't need a melody.
Lyrics do.

What is good poetry? Critics differ.

My problem is that Dylan's words are dark, often paranoid and too clever.
Sometime they are cliched.

I like the earlier songs such as "Tomorrow is a Long Time".

"Blowin' in The Wind" is a pseudo political song saying really nothing new using stale images. It's as if it were written to sell to young lefties.

It's the image of the poet that Dylan represents like the actor image of James Dean.

Dylan looks the part, a Woody makeover.

Now to me the line "Some will rob you with a six gun and some with a fountain pen" is poetic, concise and serves agit-prop well. Agitprop has its place.

"Sound and fury signifying nothing"? At times. Dylan is undoubtably a good lyricist because his words sing. As a poet, if you speak them, do they speak well like his namesake Dylan Thomas?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:09 AM

I've come a bit late to this thread, but having read Good Soldier Schweik's post with the lyrics of "They stone you..." I felt the need to put in my twopence, for what it's worth.

I was young and ardent once (!) and well remember Dylan's songs, especially "Down in the basement..." and "They stone you..." The words absolutely resonated with me. As students we learned every word (Len Cohen's songs too) and sang along enthusiastically. I was studying the entire Works of Shakespeare, and practically all the classical literature, poetry and prose, including Chaucer, not to mention (well I will then) most French and even Latin works of literature and poetry. (My degree was an MA in French and English Literature)
Yet I still felt Dylan's songs and lyrics to be superb and evocative. They have a certain urgency and relevance about them. Even now, (old and past it) I can read the lyrics and feel the same as I did then.
Most great writers have produced mediocre works among the pearls, Dylan too. But his excellent stuff is just that....excellent.

I agree it was churlish of him to neglect acknowledgement of the honour, but I expect he (like John Lennon) didn't particularly see why he should have fallen on his knees with gratitude and grab the prize like a starving man. His whole life was centred around questioning the Establishment after all...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:24 AM

"In the misty crystal glitter of that wild and windward spray..."

Poetry as good as any. Cheers, Woody.


But on Friday, the Nobel Foundation said Dylan had called Sara Danius, Permanent Secretary of the Swedish Academy, telling her: "The news about the Nobel Prize left me speechless. I appreciate the honour so much."
Although the statement said it was unclear if Dylan would attend the prize-giving banquet in Stockholm, the UK's Daily Telegraph quoted him as saying: "Absolutely. If it's at all possible."
In an interview with the paper he described the prize as "amazing, incredible".
"It's hard to believe. Whoever dreams about something like that?" the paper quoted him as saying.


For such a literary giant he appears to have a rather strange understanding of "speechless." 😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:31 AM

It would be interesting to know precisely how Bob Dylan has distanced himself from the "establishment."

Again, the point has been made a couple of times in the thread this morning that Bob has produced dross (no-one's tackled Dick on that as yet). Unlike many greats, he has allowed his bad bits to stay public, not much evidence of suppression or revision. You could wonder whether he himself can actually see what's wheat and what's chaff.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 09:39 AM

For such a literary giant he appears to have a rather strange understanding of "speechless."

He said left not leaves me speechless. For a know it all, you appear to have a rather strange understanding of grammar...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:39 AM

Maybe the chaff will evolve. As for addressing Dick, read a book, he's written quite a few. Steve Shaw, this is not a cause for sainthood it's a peace prize.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:30 AM

Er, no it isn't...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:35 AM

"He said left not leaves me speechless. For a know it all, you appear to have a rather strange understanding of grammar..."

Well, we won't mention this dreadfully-punctuated sentence of yours, shall we, Mr Hair-splitter? In fact, I know nothing. I come from Barcelona...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:38 AM

Well poor old ponderous me what is it? (And yes I know you can run circles round me so speak plainly)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:45 AM

"Some will rob you with a six gun and some with a fountain pen" - Woody Guthrie. "Universal Soldier" - Buffy Ste.-Marie. One or two or three other misattributions on this thread, but I've forgotten what they are .....


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:05 PM

Steve, I would have thought that, as Dylan was anti-war, that alone would place him in the anti-establishment camp? ('Blowing in the Wind' etc)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:29 PM

You're welcome, and I wonder if they put it back now that he has, imo, graciously, acknowledged the surprising but not, imo, undeserved honor.
The discussion going on amongst my kith&kin is whether lyrics are literature, not whether he deserved the prize. The only other category is promoting peace, and ending the last war on a continent trumps lyrics.
Speaking of which (get it?), I think part of this award is intended as a reminder to America of what we used to be about, and should go back to being about, again, imho. What do y'all think of that idea?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:12 PM

At our singaround a week ago yesterday, in honour of our new Nobel laureate, we sang the back seat of the school bus version of one of his songs -

"How many beans in a baked bean tin?
How many beans in the tin?

The answer my friend ......"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:51 PM

Been away taking in the glories of the latest Ken Loach - was hoping to return to be bowled over with thought-provoking argument - ah well!!
Still only vacuous defence of something the |Master Himself has fessed up on.
"Dylan was anti-war, that alone would place him in the anti-establishment camp?"
Dylan's Anti-war stance came when it was a fashion item 'must' - I can find only one somewhat anodyne mention of Vietnam during thee whole of the decade that his government was soaking Vietnamese peasants in burning petrol and filling their air with carcinogenic Agent Orange (which was also killing off U.S. pilots)
C'mon' - even L.B.J. could sing 'We Shall Overcome with a straight face!!!"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

Ok then Jim, what about his civil rights stance?
And while many of us were anti-war, ban the bomb etc, not everyone wrote as expressively as Dylan did. (Maybe the First World War poets, well before his time)

Interesting point Mrrzy. Is poetry found in song lyrics? Myself, I think it is. If one reads them without the music, they still resonate (for me anyway) and evoke sentiment and atmosphere.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:23 PM

"Ok then Jim, what about his civil rights stance?"
Money-spinning lip service - no more
When he was asked to go on the Freedom Rides - his manager rfused on his behalf
He was finally embarrassed into taking part by a Hollywood actor/singer paying his fare
The protesters in the U.S. even Liberal America, mobilised big time against the Vietnam War,- not a peep out of Little Boy in Blue - even after the Kent State shooting.
Is nobody goiung to respond to what he said about his own music - is his own description as worthless as that?
"Is poetry found in song lyrics? "
Good lyrics are full of it - it's why bad lyrics are described as "doggerel".
Decf:
"verse or words that are badly written or expressed.
"the last stanza deteriorates into doggerel""
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:42 PM

Bob Dylan chose his name well.

I suspect that, if he'd been John Smith, or Pete Jones, he wouldn't have become so famous.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:23 PM

And it's quite interesting that so many of Bob's defenders resort to telling us how good he was way back in the sixties. It's 2016, guys!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:55 AM

Dylan gots a Defender? Awesome! Classy ride...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:59 AM

Bob's defenders resort to telling us how good he was way back in the sixties. It's 2016, guys!

Great point, Steve! After all, your hero Beethoven has produced some sensational pieces in the last few years, hasn't he?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:17 AM

I suspect that, if he'd been John Smith, or Pete Jones, he wouldn't have become so famous.

Zimmerman would?

Well if other forums evoke the same volume of debate and nebulous opinions on whether lyrics are poetry (and I am sure they have) then his Bobness still has the power to move people.

That's what enigmas do!

A good job Bob hasn't pronounced on Trump, now that would spark a debate and a half. (Oh dear I may have invoked inverse Godwin's Rule and this debate never ends!)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:25 AM

Ha Mr Red! Imagine a thread comprising Trump, Brexit, Homophobia, The Labour Party, Religion In Schools and Climate Change. I wish I could think of an opening post for that one. Mudcat would explode and the fragments would be found on Mars...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:29 AM

Comparisons are odious, as they say, but let's take a look at the 113 Laureates over the years. Ask yourself how many you've read - or even how many you've heard of. Enjoy the reasons for the award.

List of Nobel laureates in Literature

I'd actually heard of 57 of them, and read all or part (mainly part) of about a dozen or so of that 57. I particularly like the citation extract for the joint 1917 winner, Henrik Pontoppidan - ""for his authentic descriptions of present-day life in Denmark". No doubt a stirring read...

As for song lyrics being poetry, I once listened to an excellent talk by the late, great Ian Dury - one of the wittiest and sharpest of modern, urban song writers in my view - at the Hay-on-Wye festival. The topic was about whether song lyrics were poetry or otherwise. ID was adamant that they were separate, and that his own lyrics in particular were just song lyrics - that and no more. His poetry, should he have written any, would have been a different kettle of fish. The interesting thing was that many in the audience disagreed with him - in the nicest possible way.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:46 AM

Can I just explain where I am at in all this.
I have no problem with performers who don't ring my bells - the world's full of them - "à chacun son goût", as far as I'm concerned.
I don't like Dylan as a performer - I never did - so what?
As a Liverpudlian, I never rated the Beatles much - a talented but over-hyped pop-group - nothing more - a group which made me finally decide to leave home and seek fresh pastures - if you didn't like them or football, Liverpool had s.f.a. else to offer in those days (it has little to offer half a century later other than giant models of The Yellow Submarine, and airpornt named after a dead pop-star and guided tours around an old orange warehouse which became Liverpool's finest Jazz Club until it was smegged up by four musical haircuts).   
Dylan is different - it's not his singing that gets up my nose - there are plenty of indifferent singers that have made it to the top.
It's the cult status he has achieved which provoke the attitudes that have once more put in an appearance here - if you say you don' like him, people start telling you what's wrong with you.
I have my own musical tastes, MacColl being the foremost performer at the top of my particular chart.
If I behaved towards those who didn't like him, the way people who didn't like him, the way some have reacted here because I feel the way I do about Dylan, there'be be shrieks of 'Folk-Fascist' which could be heard from here to Inishmore - sometimes it's like a time-trip back to the balmy days of Groupies and Teeny-Boppers.
If people want to discuss what THEY FIND in Dylan's music - fine - we have something to work on, but please don't tell me why I DON'T like him - and don't tell my why I should.
You might start with what he has said about his own compositions - no takers so far!
The maybe we might get around to an explanation of the overblown gibberish that is 'Blowin' in the Wind'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:29 AM

people are not prepared to give examples of good lyric writing or good poetry from Bob Dylan, they retreat behind "you dont get it". It should be possible for his admirers to give examples of good song writing[ other than masters of war] good song writing TECHNIQUE is not just about personal taste.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

good song writing TECHNIQUE is not just about personal taste.

Could you elucidate please?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:39 AM

I couldn't care less about Dylan either way but, perhaps for a change Dick, you might define what you consider "good lyric writing" to be - rather than constantly challenging others to justify Dylan's writing.

Given that any definition of "good" is inevitably personal taste, I'd be interested to see you give us an example of what you consider good lyric writing - and why.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:40 AM

Rather a vacuous post, Guest Ed. Ludwig became mightier and mightier right to the very end of his life. Listen to the quartet in F, composed a few months before he died. His very best stuff came in his last five years on earth. Never stopped developing. There isn't much eulogising about Bob's last few decades, is there?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:19 AM

The Joy of Living. THIS FITS MY DEFINITION OF A WELL WRITTEN SONG.
Farewell, you northern hills, you mountains all goodbye
Moorlands and stony ridges, crags and peaks, goodbye
Glyder Fach farewell, cold big Scafell, cloud-bearing Suilven
Sun-warmed rocks and the cold of Bleaklow's frozen sea
The snow and the wind and the rain of hills and mountains
Days in the sun and the tempered wind and the air like wine
And you drink and you drink till you're drunk on the joy of living
Farewell to you, my love, my time is almost done
Lie in my arms once more until the darkness comes
You filled all my days, held the night at bay, dearest companion
Years pass by and they're gone with the speed of birds in flight
Our lives like the verse of a song heard in the mountains
Give me your hand and love and join your voice with mine
And we'll sing of the hurt and the pain and the joy of living
Farewell to you, my chicks, soon you must fly alone
Flesh of my flesh, my future life, bone of my bone
May your wings be strong may your days be long safe be your journey
Each of you bears inside of you the gift of love
May it bring you light and warmth and the pleasure of giving
Eagerly savour each new day and the taste of its mouth
Never lose sight of the thrill and the joy of living
Take me to some high place of heather, rock and ling
Scatter my dust and ashes, feed me to the wind
So that I may be part of all you see, the air you are breathing
I'll be part of the curlew's cry and the soaring hawk,
The blue milkwort and the sundew hung with diamonds
I'll be riding the gentle breeze as it blows through your hair
Reminding you how we shared in the joy of living.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:31 AM

That seems a fairly spurious argument, Steve. We can obviously never know what Beethoven may have produced in his 60s or 70s. Maybe great, maybe not.

Anyway, its beside the point. There are a multitude of people in a multitude of fields who made their greatest contributions at a fairly young age. Do we bemoan Einstein because his work on relativity was conducted in his 20s and 30s, and his later opposition to quantum theory subsequently disproved? Does that mean he wasn't a genius?

By the way, I don't think that Dylan is a genius, but I like his work well enough.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM

Nice poem, Dick - thanks for posting it. So, what are the elements of the poem which make it work for you lyrically?

(Who's the author, by the way?)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:37 AM

Will,

It is, unsurprisingly enough, Ewan MacColl

Good Soldier,

As this thread proves, you have clearly mastered 'Copy and Paste'. Perhaps you could start working on line breaks next?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:48 AM

It's very good, though the stuff in the last five lines or so has become a cliche, with something similar (but usually not as good) trotted out in many a funeral's eulogy. Perhaps Ewan was one of the first...

Do have a look back at the rather specious remark you made in your post before last, Guest Ed. Not your finest hour.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:57 AM

Thanks for the info, GUEST - I'm not greatly familiar with much of McColl's oeuvre.

Now, I can make my own judgements as to why, for me, the lyrics in that poem work - the techniques involved in creating it, the elements that mesh in it and how, etc. - but I'd be interested in why you think it works, Dick.

You see, the point is that it's easy to just say that someone's work is rubbish and then challenge others to disprove your statement. But the opposite side of that equation is for you to state clearly - by contrast - why you think something is technically good or bad. There's just as much of an onus there.

We can all say that we like or dislike something - it is, after all, personal taste - but not always easy to justify, clearly, the reasons for the like or dislike. Much of this thread is just a lot of "he's crap"/"he's great" statements - over and over again. If people can't give cogent reasons, then perhaps they should just beg to differ.

I think it's also worth remembering that the lure and popularity of certain types of music doesn't always rest on logical arguments about artistic integrity. I have a great affection for what many would consider the meaningless music from the '50s - Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, etc. Why do I like it? Not for its literary merits - just for its sheer energy, fun and danceability. No logic there - just a hot feeling, and perhaps a little nostalgia.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:08 AM

What's very good about that particular set of song words is that it has a rhythm and lyricism that allows it to stand alone as an evocative read, even without the tune. There are some lovely notions that are expressed in a flowing and non-jarring way. I challenge anyone here to find a substantial piece of Dylan's writing about which that may be said (the notions don't need to be lovely ones, by the way). It's a cautionary tale for those who claim that song lyrics and poetry are not the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:02 AM

Harmonica playing bore


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:21 AM

You're just jealous.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:34 AM

Naw


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:45 AM

Yep. It's a known fact that the harpman gets the girl. I hope you're not a girl.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

And anyway, I'd rather be a harmonica-playing bore than a harmonica-owning bore.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:49 AM

Basically, this is no longer about the news that Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature, and IS about "I like Dylan" vs "I don't".

I'm sure I don't have a solution
I'm surprised and shocked at this de-evolution
Chalk it up to opinion pollution
And let it ride

Cuz you won't convince me
I won't convince you
We know only our way is true
Just pick a side

Pick a side and fight
You don't care if you're right
Set this talk alight
With the disdain and hate
You feel for those who
In poetry and prose do
Express what you can't understand
And why?
Because it's too much work to try.

...word. ☺


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:00 AM

"and IS about "I like Dylan" vs "I don't"."
Only if you ignore the arguments
Isn't this always what happens?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:17 AM

Poets are not there to express things in a way I can't understand. They are there to enlighten, to set off a spark of insight in us that needed setting off. To turn the inchoate into real ideas. Not to pen obscure mixtures of words for an in-crowd. Dylan aficionados really need to stop telling us that we don't get it. I've read what Dick posted here (enough, Dick, by the way) and I get it all right. Well, some of it seems ungettable by any measure, but there you go. If his language and demeanour doesn't chime with my life experiences, maybe it's Bob who doesn't get it. Take a look at any selection of lines from the Ewan MacColl song posted above. Full of ideas expressed in a near-ideal way, warmly lyrical and life-affirming. Full of those little sparks. He didn't even have to make the excuse that he was writing song words, not poetry. It IS poetry. And it's a damn fine song. And I'm not his number one fan either.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:27 AM

Will, gives a typical politicians answer AND WAY OUT to the Dylan admirers who have not answered   my original question.
none of the Dylan admirers have answered my question.
Will,if you want to seriously find out about good songwriting technique go to a workshop, you know as well as I do there are established guidelines to good songwriting, Dylan fails these on a few occasions, it is nothing to do with taste but poor ryhming[ moon in june stuff]poor use of meter, unimasginative approach[ hattie carroll, this one is like mcGonagle]


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

The point is, "what is the purpose of this thread?"

Dick wants somebody to explain things to him. I'm quite sure he won't understand what anyone tries to tell him, and HE DOESN'T WANT TO. It's not a good faith question. It's an imaginary chip on his shoulder.

Explain why I should love what the wrecking crew do when they ass rape threads until nobody other than the bitter, argumentative, whiny old past-their-relevences want to get involved in discussions anymore.

So have fun bitching, whining, pissing and moaning about things you're impotent to affect and fucking this thread until it dies. I don't think it's something most folks here enjoy.

I think I'd be more effective going to a Trump rally and trying to explain "tolerance" to the people there.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

"Explain why I should love what the wrecking crew do "
It's this dishonest nastiness the nauses up these threads - as far as I am concerned it is a sign that those who behave like this have no confidence in their own argument.
No performer, no matter how good or highly praised, is above criticism, yet doses of unpleasantness such as this preclude ant honest and open discussion - I perfect example of folk fascism (if Dylan had been a folk singer) - Ivory Towerism at its very worst.
The fact than none of the sycophants here are not even prepared to give a nod to what Dylan has said about his own work says what needs to be said.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

Google Autocomplete nominated for the Nobel

I've just started on a book by another Nobel winner, Derek Walcott's Omeros. I don't think autocomplete could fake that.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:28 PM

Dick, I'll respond just once more - with the repeated statement that Dylan doesn't impinge on my consciousness very much. Neither does the Nobel Prize, which I think is an irrelevance - just my personal view.

I don't know what you mean by a "politician's response". What interests me is that it's very easy to criticise someone's work and then, when admirers of that work challenge the criticism - keep repeating that they're the ones who are asked to justify the work. An opposite view would be: if you stand up and criticise someone's work - give your reasons, rather than demand from others that the work be justified.

I think that's a fair point.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:41 PM

Well I'm here in good faith, thank you, and am receptive to all points of view. I've spent a fair bit of time composing my own posts, been called a bore, etc., told I don't get it, been parcelled with trolls, but I'm still listening. Are you sure you're a fit and proper person to be a mod, Jeri? Pretty ugly, sweary, negative post, that one...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:46 PM

"Pretty ugly, sweary, negative post, that one..."
A mod. - really??
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

Well I thought so. Could be wrong I suppose.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:49 PM

Rumbling Equake & Xtreme Lighting (near miss)

WHOA

POWERFUL


Boy Steve, but I fail to see what's that got to do with Dylan being a boring harmonica player


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:41 PM

Jim – speaking as one of the sycophants to whom you refer I cannot believe that you of all people should have fallen for this so called interview which is clearly a hoax, a satire or a piss take at best. It was outed as such in The Guardian in the last couple of weeks and brought into question on this very forum back in 2013. The source of the interview is not given but "Rolling Stone" seems to be quoted; but try Googling that and you'll only find reference to a 2012 interview which, while being pretty feisty, does not contain any of the quotes emanating from the diatribe that you publish.
Which book is he supposed to be promoting - "Chronicles" was published in 2004 and there has been nothing since. Does that alone not cause us to smell a rat?
How about outing Jack Speedwell who you quote in both of these threads?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:52 PM

Rumbling Equake & Xtreme Lightning (near miss)

WHOA

POWERFUL


Boy Steve, but I fail to see what that's got to do with Dylan being a boring harmonica player


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:18 PM

I do want someone to explain some of Dylans lyrics that are unclear, no one can appear to do so.
I have not demanded anything other than an explanation of some of the lyrics of the poorer songs that he penned.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:45 PM

Dick,

The sceptic doth protest too much, methinks


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 06:15 PM

Dick posted some MacColl lyrics. I said what I found in those lyrics. I'm not Ewan's number one fan by a long chalk. All we're getting from Bob's fans here is defensiveness, that we don't get it. Well come on, chaps. Tell us what you see. You've loved him for decades so it shouldn't be difficult. Pick a song, post a few lines and articulate your thoughts.

By the way, pauperback, it was supposed to be me who was the boring harmonica player, not Bob. However, you've nailed it by accident. 😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 06:41 PM

No Steve,

All we're getting is your seeming joy in wanting to start an arguemnt and stir things up.

Why the hell should anyone have to justify the music they like?

Is not simply liking something not good enough?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:06 PM

Not in this thread it isn't. In real life, maybe. I love Beethoven's string quartets and piano sonatas but I'm not going to start a thread that risks my being told a load of bollocks from people not of the same persuasion. There are other, more amenable outlets, if I so choose. You come into the fray just to tell us that you don't have to explain it, that we don't get it, that we shouldn't criticise what we don't understand, etc. Read the thread. There has been no articulate, measured advocacy of Bob's endeavours in literature. There has just been defensiveness. And there have even been accusations of trolling (from a moderator who's a Dylan fan!). It doesn't matter if you think we're the devil incarnate for not subscribing to your cult, but if it hurts just don't bother with the thread. Right? I'm not offended by your love of Dylan any more than you should be offended by my completely irrational love of Carly Simon. Enjoy. It's a bit like religion, innit. You can come on here and tell us that you're praying for us, then you get all hoity-toity when you get told to get stuffed. Too bad. Why did you mention it? If you're happy with your warm and fuzzy Dylan feelings, great. Why let anyone else threaten it? Since time immemorial, Dylan has been controversial. Unless you're posting on a Dylan fan club website, you are going to get an argument. All Dylan fans know this. A Dylan fan started this thread for chrissake. He's a luvly feller but it's a good bet that he knew what he was starting. He's been conspicuous by his absence as it happens, and I don't blame him!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: RTim
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:34 PM

Dick - If you don't like Dylan, it's simple - don't listen.
He may not like your stuff either...........

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:54 PM

Not a bad philosophy. But there's a bit more to it than that. For better or worse, Dylan has been claimed to have been a massive influence. He certainly ruined John Lennon in the early days 😉.He's not an isolated figure in our musical pantheon. It behoves his critics to at least have listened to his work. He's worth discussing beyond the context of the aesthetics of his songs regarded in isolation. It's just a pity that some of his fans are too often a bit religious about him.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 03:59 AM

"for this so called interview which is clearly a hoax"
Is it?
I quoted it because, after a long time trying to like and understand Dylan's writing and singing, it was more or less the conclusion I had arrived at already - I didn't, and still don't like his singing and I don't understand his lyrics.
If the interview was a hoax, then I will need to seek another explanation as to why I find his reputation so overblown and undeserved.
I really don't need to read other people's opinions of singers before I reach my own conclusions about them - I'm quite capable of arriving at them myself.
As for Speedwell - do people need to know who he is before they form an opinion on what the article contains - you may - I don't.?
I've always thought I knew who he was - that was confirmed a few years ago, but so what - the piece says what it says - it made sense when it first read it back in the sixties and it still makes sense.
As for criticising Dylan; I find it totally astounding that, on a forum where it is impossible to discuss any aspect of MacColl's work without being totally swamped by a mountain of bile-filled garbage, any criticism of Dylan should produce such an outraged "how dare you insult our demi-god" reaction
Who on earth do you people think you are, and what kind of god do you consider your hero to be that such a prominent musical figure is above any form of criticism?
I greatly admire the work of Ewan MacColl; I make no pretence of my admiration for his singing, but I'm happy to accept that it doesn't float everybody'd boat.   
What does concern me is the fact that the voluntary work he did with other singers to improve their singing produced a massive and totally unprecedented body of work on the art of singing folk songs which, over a quarter of a century after the man's death, is totally inaccessible to discussion because of the necrophobic and unreasoning hatred of the man on a forum which styles itself a discussion forum on "Traditional Music and Folklore Collection and Community".
My opinions of MacColl as a man are based on twenty-plus years personal experience of knowing and working with him - I am quite capable of cutting through the bilious garbage surrounding him and sorting fact from fiction - which is what I do here whenever it floats to the surface.
I don't leap on my chair, haul up my skirts and demand that everyone who doesn't like MacColl should go elsewhere - I'm quite happy to slug it out - in fact, I quite enjoy it.
I expect the same of Dylan - or anybody's fans - no hope here, it seems - we even get an abusive response from a forum moderator.
Unbelievable
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 04:19 AM

Yes I think Jeri is a mod. I seem to recall him saying so as he censured my posts in the past. Memory is fickle though.                      Though I think we can be pretty sure some stuff ain't poetry , it seems to me that poetry is so slippery to pin down , that it would be a mistake to say Dylan's lyrics are not without admitting it to be an opinion, not a certainty.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 04:53 AM

'A Dylan fan started this thread for chrissake. He's a luvly feller but it's a good bet that he knew what he was starting. He's been conspicuous by his absence as it happens, and I don't blame him!'

I wouldn't describe myself first and foremost as a Dylan fan. A one time fan perhaps but my teens and twenties are well behind me by now and I haven't exactly followed Dylan's progress since closely.

Yes, I was well aware mentioning the awarding of the Nobel would get the detractors out. And I don't see much point in joining the fray. As I said, I think the award is well deserved, for the reasons stated by the awarding committee. But feel free to disagree, no problem.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 04:58 AM

For the last fifty –odd years I have found myself in the awkward/enviable position (depending on your stance) of being a huge admirer of the works and performance of BOTH Ewan MacColl and Bob Dylan. Right back in 1964 when MacColl made the first, that I had read, unbridled attack on Dylan via a Melody Maker interview with Karl Dallas while I didn't agree with him it did not alter my opinion of him as a singer, songwriter and performer. Since then I have seen him on numerous occasions and booked him three times at my club; I always found him to be the consummate professional and entirely approachable. I have also learned a valuable amount of songs from his singing.
I too am continually saddened by the vicious attacks made against him on this forum and elsewhere; usually made by those who had little or no connection with the man; in fact Jim I may well have supported you in his defence over the years.
In Dylan's defence in this matter he has never uttered a sentence in response either for or against MacColl; although in one of his earlier poems he does laud A.L.Lloyd!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:14 AM

I owe you a grovelling apology, Peter. I thought I was talking about someone else and I even had the wrong thread OP in my head when I typed that. Sorry you had to waste time responding to that nonsense. I'm getting old...😳🔫


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 05:32 AM

Don't ask me why I think it, but I've always assumed that Jeri is a girl....🤔❓


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 08:26 AM

MacColl's attitude to Dylan was a defensive one and was shared by many others, Lloyd included, in his quiet way
When Lomax visited Britain in the fifties he found a bunch of singers, Ewan and Bert included, singing American songs in phony American accents.   
He remonstrated with them and pointed out the importance of keeping alive their native traditions
With the help of the BBC mopping up campaign of collecting, the situation was turned around - English and Scots singers started to sing English and Scots songs.
Dylan's appearance on the scene gave rise to a #whole batch of Dylan-Doublers and Joanie clones, in my opinion, even a step down from the previous Woodie-Warblers and Huddie-Howlers.
MacColl, Seeger, Bert and others fought the Mid-Atlantic Americanese and dedicated their lives to the exploration of the British and Irish repertoires - Dylan just happened to get in the firing line.
Given the encouragement Ewan gave people like me to develop a lifelong interest in the traditions of these islands, I can forgive his occasional intolerances and excesses.
In the twenty of years I knew Ewan, I never once heard him attack a fellow performer publicly - I can think of plenty who chose to attack him and those who worked with him - those attacks continue over a quarter f a century after his death.
And people squeal about analytical criticism of Bobbie - Come -onnnnn!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 09:22 AM

I have never said i do not like Dylan, whast i have asked for is some kind of serious response to explain some of his lyrics in some of his poorer songs, in order to justify the award,
a result of which I have been subjected to a personal attack from a moderator of this forum, my opinion is that when someone resorts to insults they have lost the argument. .
TimR, I happen to like Masters of War, and AT LEAST three other songs that i think are catchy pop songs, but I do not think it justifies the award.
no one   has been able to explain the lyrics of farewell angelina and some others that i have mentioned. wiggle, like a rolling stone, ballad in plain d, hattie carroll, farewellangelina, either have an unclear message, or are badly written from a technical point of view or have an unimaginative approach,poor rhyming, bad meter, bad grammar that renders the meaning ridiculous[ eg hattie carroll double negatives]


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:08 AM

Dylan inspired a generation.

If we all treated one person as a hero we would be fanatics. If Dylan used that position for personal aggrandizement - it would be a religion.

Dylan is above that and he still inspired enough of a generation to qualify for the Nobel Gong if only for that restraint alone.

Kris Kristoffeson has pedegree, a Rhodes Scholar, Merton College Oxford (English Literature). Some pretty emotive songs. But does he compare quite so?
Nah!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 10:54 AM

Good Soldier,

I'm sorry, but given the content of many of your posts, criticising bad grammar is ludicrous.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:02 AM

Just an observation on a minor point that has been raised as a criticism several times: Dylan uses "bad grammar" deliberately and knowingly because he writes in the vernacular of the American working-class/underclass/lower-class/lumpenproletariat/underprivileged/minimally-educated/frontiersman/backwoodsmen/etc. It is not coincidental that the ungrammatical vernacular often has more direct and powerful turns of phrase than does standard English. This is the reason that at least one or two other writers of pop and folk songs have been known, on occasion, to employ grammar and vocabulary that is rather less than acceptable in polite society.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:29 AM

Sorry, I can't resist:

Don't Have Any Doubts (the Situation is Satisfactory)

It isn't of any use to sit and wonder why, darling,
If you don't know by now;
It isn't of any use to sit and wonder why, darling,
It would be inappropriate, somehow;
When your rooster crows at the break of dawn,
Look out your window and you won't see me because I'll be gone;
You're the reason I'm travelling away from here;
Don't have any doubts; the situation is satisfactory.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM

"Dylan uses "bad grammar" deliberately and knowingly because he writes in the vernacular of the American working-class"
Does he (not arguing as my knowledge of U.S. vernacular speech is limited to freely available recorded versions - Archie Green, Studs Terkel and Sandy Paton's and others' wonderful Appalachian albums - Ray Hicks, Dillard Chandler....?
Vernacular speech has its own disciplines and logicalities - and certainly, it's own beauty and power - at its best, it is an art form in itself (listen to Sam Larner or Gordon Boswell or Jack Elliot on the Radio Ballads).
For the U.S., try Aunt Mollie Jackson or Nimrod Workman or Texas Gladden - masters?mistresses of the vernacular all.
Dylan's narrative qualities have always struck be as unattractive and somewhat uninteresting.
Maybe I missed something.
It's true that some working class speech can be ugly and dull, but if you are coming at it from the outside you need to present it at its best to make it work
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM

Many acclaimed poets have written in the vernacular over the centuries.
If you want a prime example, just attempt (unless you're a Scot of course!) to read some of Rabbie Burns' stuff!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:27 PM

I am still waiting for those that think the award is justified to explain the meaning of some of his lyrics, the silence is deafening.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:42 PM

"Maybe I missed something."

Maybe - maybe not. My point was simply that there is nothing wrong in principle with using "bad grammar", especially if you're writing in vernacular.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 12:54 PM

Dick, rather than constantly banging on about it, why don't you address your query to the Nobel Committee - after all they're the ones who gave him the award. You either like him enough to think the award was justified - or you don't. Better still, drop Bob a line and get him to explain all.

If I was a Dylan fan, which I'm not, I don't think I could be arsed to justify his lyrics. That's probably why the silence is deafening. I happen to be huge fan of Randy Newman's work. I like it very much, but I'm buggered if I'm going to waste time explaining it to people who don't like his work? Why on earth should I?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:11 PM

its not a question of liking his work, i do like some of his work, the silence is imo probably deafening because they cant explain some of his incomprehensible lyrics, can you? what the feck is he on about in farewell angelina, Will, can you explain.
furthermore randy newman has not been awarded the nobel prize for literature, so what is his relevance?
neither is it a question of justifying his lyrics ,what i am asking for is an explanation. an explanation,Will ,is quite different from a justification.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 02:39 PM

'Farewell Angelina' is indeed difficult to fathom, but if one just lets it roll around without trying to analyse it, it really does have some power, in my view. The lines 'Just a table standing empty at the edge of the sea' and 'Fifty-two gypsies file past the guards' actually give me a shiver down the spine.

I was condemned (at the age of sixteen) to study, among other stuff, the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins at school, for my A level English Literature. I couldn't make head nor tail of the chap. But now, I absolutely love 'The Windhover'. The meaning is less important than the emotions it evokes, and I can appreciate now why GMH is viewed as a great poet.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:19 PM

Years ago I took a friend winter camping for his first time and he kept repeating lines from "Isis":

The wind it was howling
The snow was outrageous
We chopped through the night
And we chopped through the dawn
When he died I was hoping
It was not contagious
But I made up my mind
I had to keep on


On the whole, I have personally sung more Paul Simon in the car and more Stan Rogers on the trail.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 06:26 PM

Talking Woody, Bob, Bruce & Dan Blues
by
Dan Bern

Well, when Woody Guthrie was sick and dying
Bob Dylan visited him as he was lying
In a hospital bed Bob sang him songs
Woody smiled and said I'm glad you come
You belong here
Go forth and be the voice of your generation

Well, above Beverly Hills one night real late
I snuck past a security gate
Parked by a Mercedes Benz
Climbed up a barbed wire fence and over
Couple of scratches, but I'd made it
To the home of Bruce Springsteen

Well, I found the boss asleep in bed
Pillows piled up round his head
I turned on the light took off my coat
Stuck a theromometer down his throat
Said don't talk
You look pale , Boss
Not at all well

I said you look bad and I asked him could he
Think of us as Bob and Woody
I said you just rest your pretty head
As I sing to you in your hospital bed
He said what the hell you talking about
I ain't sick
This ain't a hospital
And how'd you get past the security gate

I said I wrote you a song called Song To Bruce
With a tune I stole from one of yours
To his platinum records next I pointed
Said I just want to be annointed
Springsteen, I wrote you a song
'Bout a funny ol' world that's a coming along
Seems sick and it's tired it's hard and it's torn
It looks like it's dying and it's hardly been born
He started really looking sick
And I stopped singing

Then Patty his wife came in I said jeez
I'm sorry about your husband's incurable disease
I'm here to help any way I can
You know, Woody and Bob, Bruce and Dan
She said honey, what am I hearing?
He said baby, you know I'm in the prime of life
I said down to two million in sales last time out
Read the signs, Patty

He said some people think this record's my best
I said shhhhh, you need your rest
He said there's a madman on the loose
I said Woody and Bob, Dan and Bruce

He sprang out of his bed and said
All right, I've heard enough of this stuff
He grabbed my throat and dragged me hard
Down the hall and through the yard
Suprising strength for a dying man

Well, he threw me out the way I come
Barbed wire scraped my face and thumbs
I've been thinking ever since
Bob and Woody
Dan and the artist formerly known as Prince
Dan and Madonna
Bob and Woody-
Dan and Bob
So long, Bel Air
Howdy, Malibu


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

As I said a day or three ago, Dick and I have been at loggerheads on several previous occasions and I've already promised to fall out with him again presently. We don't actually need further examples of Dylan's bad lyrics any more, but I'm going to continue to defend Dick in this thread. Whilst it's true that Dick's grammar and punctuation in his posts could occasionally do with a little attention, that does not disqualify him from criticising that of Dylan. There will be fifty thousand footie fans at Anfield this weekend and every one of them will have a fierce opinion of their team, but not one of them can play football like Philippe Coutinho. Many a book written by a professor of music has contained criticism of Beethoven's symphonies, yet not one of those professors could hold a candle to Ludwig's sublime skills. And so on. By insinuating that Dick should be disqualified from criticising Bob, so, by your own measure, YOU should also be disqualified from praising him, because you can't write songs like him. That's clearly ridiculous, but it does shine a light on your attack on Dick.

As for language in songs, Woody wrote "I ain't gonna be treated this way". He wrote "If you ain't got the do-re-mi." He wrote "I just blowed in and I got them dustbowl blues." He wrote "I've been ridin' them fast rattlers, I thought you knowed." Not at all grammatical in the British Empire public school sense, but his speech is people's speech. To me, he was a true poet because of that. I can find poetry in the simplest of his song words because he didn't worry about grammar (though he was in no sense illiterate) but spoke natural speech, what ordinary people speak, the most poetic speech of all. Bob is in no way comparable. He speaks the tortuous language of the "knowing" college graduate in-crowd who loved the fact that they had something that the non-cognescenti "didn't get." Clearly an attitude that has yet to die down.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 05:37 AM

When Kenny Rogers and Lionel Richie were recording, Lionel pointed out a few notes off key that were wrong.
Kenny pointed out that they were not only right, but the emotion was carried almost exclusively by them.

Now leap forward and apply that to the lyrics. What the vituperative of this parish dislike is what IMNSHO is the thing that carries the emotion of the lyric. Its raison dêtre.

Beware "confirmation bias". dislike and bad can be close friends. And the opposite of course.

FWIW I like Dylan's affect on a generation. But as a poet/singer/wrongciter I can only marvel at the man's skill.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: voyager
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 09:13 AM

If the audience for this Dylan Nobel laureate thread ('wailing wall') don't object, next year I'll nominate Eric Bogle for the prize. His Dylan parody is timeless and priceless IMHO -

DO YOU KNOW ANY BOB DYLAN?
(Eric Bogle)

At the age of nineteen, I was young, I was keen
And I had just one burning ambition:
To be a folksinger, a dope-smoking swinger
Sing songs that were steeped in tradition
So I bought a guitar and I practiced real hard
I wasn't much good, but I was willin'
Till to my chagrin, my girlfriend came in
And she said: "Can you play any Dylan?"

Ch: I said "No! No! A thousand times no!
I'd rather see my lifeblood spillin'
I'd sing everything, even 'God Save The King'
But I just won't sing any Bob Dylan"

And with my guitar I traveled real far,
Trying to get recognition
I sang 'The Wild Rover' from Dundee to Dover
In pubs, clubs and in seaman's missions (Hullo, sailor)
I travelled the road for seven long years
My pace, it really was killin'
And everywhere I went from Guaya to Gwent
They would say: "Can you play any Dylan?" (Can you?)

Well, I struggled on, but the magic was gone
I only had a deep sense of failure
I thought then I'd go to where all failures go
So I boarded a ship for Australia
When I landed at Sydney the sun it shone down
'Twas a view that was lovely and thrillin'
Till spotting my case with a smile on his face
Custom said: "Can you sing any Dylan?" (man)

And ever since then, again and again,
I've been asked the same bloody question
And I usually reply in me own quiet way
With a totally indecent suggestion
But the last time came on at the local motel
When I had a young girl who was willin'
As she slipped off her dress she said "I'll say yes
If only you sing some Bob Dylan" (Big boy. Big big big boy)

But I tell you my friends, that was the end
Of all my traditional aspirations
If bein' a folkie was gonna cut off my nookie
There was one way to end my frustration
The next night I sang at my local folk club
Where the audience as usual was millin'
Till I took off my coat and I ructured my throat
And I sang just like Bob Dylan:

(sing first verse of "The Times They Are A-Changin'" extremely through
the nose so that no-one understands a word)

Well the audience went wild, mans, womans and childs
And they clapped till their raw hands were bleedin'
And said so to speak that my style was unique
And just what this dreary folk scene was needin'
So all you young folkies who bash out the cart
If you want to attain the top billin'
Just murder good prose and sing through your nose
And then you'll sing just like Bob Dylan.

(sing last line of each verse with heavy accent)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
recorded by Eric Bogle on "In Concert - live" (1985)
copyright Larrikin Music
"Early in my career I got sick of people asking me to sing Bob Dylan songs.
Does he sing any of mine? No. So this protest song was the result."- E.Bogle


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

voyager,

Quite why you needed to copy and paste something that's been on this site well over a decade, I don't know.

Next time try a link, maybe?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

Now that he's agreed to attend the ceremony, perhaps he'll perform "Masters Of War".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 01 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM

Shakespeare took us to unpath'd waters, undream'd shores, most certain.

Dylan, to the moon


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 02 Nov 16 - 04:41 PM

And ever against eating Cares,        
Lap me in soft Lydian Aires,        
Married to immortal verse        
Such as the meeting soul may pierce        
In notes, with many a winding bout        
Of linckèd sweetnes long drawn out,


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM

With all this concentration on the pros and cons of Dylan's lyrics, it is easy to forget the incredible poetic strength of his early rival, Donovan. They even wore the same caps which clearly emphasised their stylistic similarity. However, whilst Dylan's lyrics did scale some climb some mountains, they never reached the Mount Everest heights of Donovan's.
Those of us who were around at the time will remember that huge cultural impact when Mellow Yellow was released as a single and that literary critics were blown away when they had to consider the implications of lyrics like:-
Electrical banana
Is gonna be a sudden craze
Electrical banana
Is bound to be the very next phase.....


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:13 PM

Wikipedia:

"In his autobiography Donovan explained "electrical banana" was a reference to a "yellow-coloured vibrator."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:24 PM

Will Fly - Fountain of Knowledge - Specialised subject - "Popular Music Trivia"!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:31 PM

I thank you, Vic!

Good to know that Mr. Leitch is in the same ballpark as Steely Dan - also the name of a vibrator in William Burrough's "The Naked Lunch."

Got a vibrator question? Just ask...

Just saying-ing-ing-ing-g-g-g-g


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

Derek Brimstone wore the same kind of hat too, does that emphasise stylistic similarity? mind you neither of them have any pretensions to being poets niether have they been awarded laureate prizes, whats the relevance Vic?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 16 - 02:00 PM

Hughie Jones wears that kind of cap too.
Ellen Vannen, lyrics are well written and the meaning is clear, so it cant be anything to do with caps.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 10:19 AM

There is a possibility, Dick, that I might not have intended to be entirely serious. You must develop the expectation that some of my posts exemplify my attempts at humour.

Meanwhile, I look forward to a learned exposition from my friend, Mr. Fly, on the significance of Good Vibrations.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 12:38 PM

Indeed Vic,I must try harder.I will retire to the Dunces Corner.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Nov 16 - 04:53 PM

She's giving me excitations - that's all you need to know, Vic.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 05:02 AM

I have pasted two poems neither of them BobDylan, bet you cant guess who wrote these[ two different aspiring poets
To the Moon

Sail on, as tirelessly as ever,
Above an earth obscured by clouds,
And with your shining glow of silver
Dispel the fog that now abounds.

With languor, bend your lovely neck,
Lean down to earth with tender smile.
Sing lullabies to Mount Kazbek,
Whose glaciers reach for you on high.

But know for certain, he who had
Once been oppressed and cast below,
Can scale the heights of Mount Mtatsminda,
Exalted by undying hope.

Shine on, up in the darkened sky,
Frolic and play with pallid rays,
And, as before, with even light,
Illuminate my fatherland.

I'll bare my breast to you, extend
My arm in joyous greeting, too.
My spirit trembling, once again
I'll glimpse before me the bright moon.

   North country scene:
A hundred leagues locked in ice,
A thousand leagues of whirling snow.
Both sides of the Great Wall
One single white immensity.
The Yellow River's swift current
Is stilled from end to end.
The mountains dance like silver snakes
And the highlands* charge like wax-hued elephants,
Vying with heaven in stature.
On a fine day, the land,
Clad in white, adorned in red,
Grows more enchanting.

This land so rich in beauty
Has made countless heroes bow in homage.
But alas! Chin Shih-huang and Han Wu-ti
Were lacking in literary grace,
And Tang Tai-tsung and Sung Tai-tsu
Had little poetry in their souls;
And Genghis Khan,
Proud Son of Heaven for a day,
Knew only shooting eagles, bow outstretched
All are past and gone!
For truly great men
Look to this age alone.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Nov 16 - 07:06 AM

Vic
Smiley Face, Smiley Face, Wink should do it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:51 PM

Apparently not going to the ceremony... blicky


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Vic Smith
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 02:40 PM

Vic
Smiley Face, Smiley Face, Wink should do it.

Thank you for the tip on how a joke should be indicated on Mudcat ..... or are you just trying to trump my hillarity?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:21 PM

Stop beating around the Bush, Vic...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:52 PM

For those interested -

www.salon.com/2003/07/24/masked_anonymous

Steve Shaw - stop that! you'll go blind


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:17 AM

Just read an article that reported how many Dylan references there were in the titles (long titles) of published Scientific papers. About 250 were found, parodies/puns on Dylan lyrics. The same team found 350 ish Beatles references.

It demonstrates that scientists are not all po-faced, and it probably increases readership. Dumbing-down? Yea a bit. But ya gotta laugh.

Smiley face, Smiley face, Singing face. -
Yea Vic, just pointing-out that without telegraphing the joke you come up against those: hard of thinking, hair-trigger people, and they exist a-plenty, even on Mudcat. (excluding me and you, of course).


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 01:14 PM

I didn't understand

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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 01:16 PM

Merde alors. It's a nice article in today's WashPo that is available here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-prize-that-bob-dylan-really-deserves/2016/12/09/c92bbeb8-bd70-11e6-91ee-1adddfe36cbe_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-b%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.0a305956fc03


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:36 PM

Patti Smith accepted the Nobel prize on behalf of Dylan at the awards ceremony in Stockholm. In place of a speech she sang Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall".

From the New Yorker:

After the presentation of the Nobel Prize in Medicine, to Yoshinori Ohsumi, the Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra played Jean Sibelius's "Serenade," from "King Christian II Suite." The measured Swedish commentator who was delivering a polite play-by-play of the proceedings introduced the punk-rock singer Patti Smith by saying, "Soon we will hear music of a different kind. Something that a lot of people probably have heard before." Any haughtiness was surely inadvertent, but there it was: prepare yourselves for a shift toward the popular. Every yahoo on the street knows this one!

Smith was accompanied by the Philharmonic performing a spare and gentle arrangement of Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall," orchestrated by Hans Ek, a Swedish conductor. She looked so striking: elegant and calm in a navy blazer and a white collared shirt, her long, silver hair hanging in loose waves, hugging her cheekbones. I started crying almost immediately. She forgot the words to the second verse—or at least became too overwhelmed to voice them—and asked to begin the section again. I cried more. "I'm sorry, I'm so nervous," Smith admitted. The orchestra obliged. The entire performance felt like a fierce and instantaneous corrective to "times like these"—a reiteration of the deep, overwhelming, and practical utility of art to combat pain. In that moment, the mission of the Nobel transcended any of its individual recipients. How plainly glorious to celebrate this work.

Patti Smith - A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:48 PM

Bob Dylan's Nobel Prize in Literature banquet speech as read by United States Ambassador to Sweden Azita Raji:

Good evening, everyone. I extend my warmest greetings to the members of the Swedish Academy and to all of the other distinguished guests in attendance tonight.

I'm sorry I can't be with you in person, but please know that I am most definitely with you in spirit and honored to be receiving such a prestigious prize. Being awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature is something I never could have imagined or seen coming. From an early age, I've been familiar with and reading and absorbing the works of those who were deemed worthy of such a distinction: Kipling, Shaw, Thomas Mann, Pearl Buck, Albert Camus, Hemingway. These giants of literature whose works are taught in the schoolroom, housed in libraries around the world and spoken of in reverent tones have always made a deep impression. That I now join the names on such a list is truly beyond words.

I don't know if these men and women ever thought of the Nobel honor for themselves, but I suppose that anyone writing a book, or a poem, or a play anywhere in the world might harbor that secret dream deep down inside. It's probably buried so deep that they don't even know it's there.

If someone had ever told me that I had the slightest chance of winning the Nobel Prize, I would have to think that I'd have about the same odds as standing on the moon. In fact, during the year I was born and for a few years after, there wasn't anyone in the world who was considered good enough to win this Nobel Prize. So, I recognize that I am in very rare company, to say the least.

I was out on the road when I received this surprising news, and it took me more than a few minutes to properly process it. I began to think about William Shakespeare, the great literary figure. I would reckon he thought of himself as a dramatist. The thought that he was writing literature couldn't have entered his head. His words were written for the stage. Meant to be spoken not read. When he was writing Hamlet, I'm sure he was thinking about a lot of different things: "Who're the right actors for these roles?" "How should this be staged?" "Do I really want to set this in Denmark?" His creative vision and ambitions were no doubt at the forefront of his mind, but there were also more mundane matters to consider and deal with. "Is the financing in place?" "Are there enough good seats for my patrons?" "Where am I going to get a human skull?" I would bet that the farthest thing from Shakespeare's mind was the question "Is this literature?"

When I started writing songs as a teenager, and even as I started to achieve some renown for my abilities, my aspirations for these songs only went so far. I thought they could be heard in coffee houses or bars, maybe later in places like Carnegie Hall, the London Palladium. If I was really dreaming big, maybe I could imagine getting to make a record and then hearing my songs on the radio. That was really the big prize in my mind. Making records and hearing your songs on the radio meant that you were reaching a big audience and that you might get to keep doing what you had set out to do.

Well, I've been doing what I set out to do for a long time, now. I've made dozens of records and played thousands of concerts all around the world. But it's my songs that are at the vital center of almost everything I do. They seemed to have found a place in the lives of many people throughout many different cultures and I'm grateful for that.

But there's one thing I must say. As a performer I've played for 50,000 people and I've played for 50 people and I can tell you that it is harder to play for 50 people. 50,000 people have a singular persona, not so with 50. Each person has an individual, separate identity, a world unto themselves. They can perceive things more clearly. Your honesty and how it relates to the depth of your talent is tried. The fact that the Nobel committee is so small is not lost on me.

But, like Shakespeare, I too am often occupied with the pursuit of my creative endeavors and dealing with all aspects of life's mundane matters. "Who are the best musicians for these songs?" "Am I recording in the right studio?" "Is this song in the right key?" Some things never change, even in 400 years.

Not once have I ever had the time to ask myself, "Are my songs literature?"

So, I do thank the Swedish Academy, both for taking the time to consider that very question, and, ultimately, for providing such a wonderful answer.

My best wishes to you all,

Bob Dylan


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 08:44 PM

To all the critics of the choice, especially the sour-grape Brits, this is what the Swedish Academy's literary historian Horace Engdahl had to say about the Committee's selection:


"He gave back to the language of poetry its elevated style, lost since the Romantics," Engdahl said in a speech introducing Dylan's award. "Not to sing of eternities, but to speak of what was happening around us. As if the oracle of Delphi were reading the evening news. Recognizing that revolution by awarding Bob Dylan the Nobel Prize was a decision that seemed daring only beforehand and already seems obvious."

In the face of claims that Dylan was a cheap choice for such a hallowed honor, Engdahl hailed the Minnesota-born songwriter for beating the smart set at its own game—taking an idiom discarded ages ago by the cultural intelligentsia and changing the world with it.

"What brings about the great shifts in the world of literature? Often it is when someone seizes upon a simple, overlooked form, discounted as art in the higher sense, and makes it mutate. Thus, at one point, emerged the modern novel from anecdote and letter, thus arose drama in a new age from high jinx on planks placed on barrels in a marketplace, thus songs in the vernacular dethroned learned Latin poetry…Each time this occurs, our idea of literature changes."

Engdahl called Dylan's rhyming "an alchemical substance that dissolves contexts to create new ones…fusing the languages of the street and the Bible" into songs that beside which "much of the bookish poetry in our world felt anemic.

"The routine song lyrics his colleagues continued to write were like old-fashioned gunpowder following the invention of dynamite."

Engdahl said that Dylan deserved the award for panning "poetry gold" out of the scope of human experience, creating a mosaic of lyrical gems "from what he discovered in heirloom and scrap, in banal rhyme and quick wit, in curses and pious prayers, sweet nothings and crude jokes."

"By means of his oeuvre, Bob Dylan has changed our idea of what poetry can be and how it can work. He is a singer worthy of a place beside the Greeks, beside Ovid, beside the Romantic visionaries, beside the kings and queens of the Blues, beside the forgotten masters of brilliant standards."

Returning his attention to the academy's Dylan detractors, Engdahl bid a gleeful farewell to the old order of things.

"If people in the literary world groan, one must remind them that the gods don't write, they dance and they sing."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 09:02 PM

At some point I should like you to tell us why anyone on the planet, bar a couple of other second-rate songsmiths, would be suffering from sour grapes as a consequence of Bob's award. I really don't give a stuff who awards him what. He's your hero. Great. He's not mine by a long chalk, but as soon as I express criticism I get a ton of schoolyard yah-boo stuff from the likes of you. Too bad. You could conceivably be wrong about him. Has that ever occurred to you?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 09:41 PM

Oh, give it a rest Shaw, your superciliousness is tiresome.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:16 AM

Thanks bobad, you are spot on.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:22 AM

What a stupid observation, Bobad. If you happen to like Bob Dylan ad believe in things like Nobel Prizes, then good luck to you. Enjoy them.

As it happens, I couldn't care tuppence about literary prizes, and some of Dylan I like - and some I don't like. So what has any of that got to do with "Brits" and "sour grapes" - and what has it got to do with being "supercilious"?

Just accept that our individual heroes and heroines, if we have any, are just that - individual tastes. No need to open a post with "To all the critics of the choice, etc. etc....".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:38 AM

Sock puppetry suspected! (only suspected, mods...) 😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 09:52 AM

Go, Bobad! That's from a Brit, a died in the wool traddie who never was a Dylan fan, but can appreciate his impact and talent.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 10:29 AM

YooHoo! DYLAN! DYLAN! DYLAN! DYLAN!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 11:14 AM

"What a Stupid observation Bobad"...Will Fly.
Well, I seriously disagree with you Will Fly. Mr. Shaw has referred to Dylan fans in the following manner long before Bobad made the comment to which you objected.... Mr. Shaw suggested that Fans of Dylan were Self regarding ex hippies, an army of sycophants, self appointed in crowd, poor deluded souls, shallow, uncritical aficinanados and were not familiar with "real" literature. So I do not see that Bobad is the problem. Mr. Shaw, as per usual, came to argue not to discuss and it IS getting very tiresome !


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:02 PM

I agree with Will.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:05 PM

And here is a wonderful poemWiggle, wiggle, wiggle all dressed in green
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle till the moon is blue
Wiggle till the moon sees you
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle in your boots and shoes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, you got nothing to lose
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, like a swarm of bees
Wiggle on your hands and knees
Wiggle to the front, wiggle to the rear
Wiggle till you wiggle right out of here
Wiggle till it opens, wiggle till it shuts
Wiggle till it bites, wiggle till it cuts
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle, you can raise the dead
Wiggle till you're high, wiggle till you're higher
Wiggle till you vomit fire
Wiggle till it whispers, wiggle till it hums
Wiggle till it answers, wiggle till it comes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like satin and silk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a pail of milk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, rattle and shake
Wiggle like a big fat snake


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:09 PM

and anther corker
Ballad in Plain D
Bob Dylan
I once loved a girl, her skin it was bronze
With the innocence of a lamb, she was gentle like a fawn
I courted her proudly but now she is gone
Gone as the season she's taken
In a young summer's youth, I stole her away
From her mother and sister, though close did they stay
Each one of them suffering from the failures of their day
With strings of guilt they tried hard to guide us
Of the two sisters, I loved the young
With sensitive instincts, she was the creative one
The constant scrapegoat, she was easily undone
By the jealousy of others around her
For her parasite sister, I had no respect
Bound by her boredom, her pride to protect
Countless visions of the other she'd reflect
As a crutch for her scenes and her society
Myself, for what I did, I cannot be excused
The changes I was going through can't even be used
For the lies that I told her in hopes not to lose
The could-be dream-lover of my lifetime
With unseen consciousness, I possessed in my grip
A magnificent mantelpiece, though its heart being chipped
Noticing not that I'd already slipped
To the sin of love's false security
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
'Till the tombstones of damage read me no questions but, "Please
What's wrong and what's exactly the matter?"
And so it did happen like it could have been foreseen
The timeless explosion of fantasy's dream
At the peak of the night, the king and the queen
Tumbled all down into pieces
"The tragic figure!" her sister did shout
"Leave her alone, god damn you, get out!"
And I in my armor, turning about
And nailing her in the ruins of her pettiness
Beneath a bare light bulb the plaster did pound
Her sister and I in a screaming battleground
And she in between, the victim of sound
Soon shattered as a child to the shadows
All is gone, all is gone, admit it, take flight
I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight
My mind it was mangled, I ran into the night
Leaving all of love's ashes behind me
The wind knocks my window, the room it is wet
The words to say I'm sorry, I haven't found yet
I think of her often and hope whoever she's met
Will be fully aware of how precious she is
Ah, my friends from the prison, they ask unto me
"How good, how good does it feel to be free?"
And I answer them most mysteriously
"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:33 PM

Nothing quite like an infestation ABOVE the line of a guest-bobad axis...😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:53 PM

Nothing quite like an infestation ABOVE the line of a guest-bobad axis...😂

Hey Shaw, Dylan wrote a song about you, it's called "Idiot Wind"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:11 PM

Dick, you keep bleating on about wanting people to explain Dylan's lyrics. Should we then by the same token ask all those abstract artists who won prizes to explain their art?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:21 PM

GSS - If you want Ballad in Plain D explaining then I suggest that you read the early pages of the countless biographies written about Bob Dylan; its all in there.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 07:08 PM

i havent bleated on about anything, neither do i need a badly written song explained, i am illustrating some of his gems that got him the prize.
Steve Gardham perhaps you could explain your aggressive post to me. to respond to someone by saying they are bleating on about something is aggressive and flaming, if you said it to me in person in the real world i would tell you in four letter words


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 07:10 PM

"Should we then by the same token ask all those abstract artists who won prizes to explain their art?"

Yes we should. If it looks like bullshit it's down to them, if they want to retain our interest, to explain why it isn't. What is art if it doesn't reach out and grab you by the lapels? Art is about edification, not deliberate obfuscation. The true artist urgently wants to communicate and to enlighten. Enjoy your heaps of twisted metal, your piles of bricks, your dirty bed linen, your sliced sheep, your diamond-encrusted skulls, your "enigmatic" paint splodges, your bleeding heads and your piss flowers. Taking-the-piss flowers, more like.

"Ah, but you only THINK it's a just pile of bricks..." 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 07:39 PM

HA HA HA HA HA


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:26 PM

Well, Steve, Dick may well be pissing you off with his postings of lyrics, but I'm quite enjoying them. The one you're defending so ardently is doggerel. You defeat your own argument when you suggest that Dick should go and investigate other sources in order to have the words explained to him. When I'm looking at a painting, or listening to a string quartet, or reading a poem, I don't expect to have to go to have it "explained" by somebody else who is, supposedly, a far lesser talent that the artist himself (otherwise he would have written it!). As long as my mind is open, I expect a confrontation with that work of art that is meaningful on some level to me there and then. As I refine my mind and gain experience, I might return to the work later and be enlightened on more levels. But the onus is on the artist to make that initial communication. Good art can edify on many different levels and good art is not created for an in-crowd or for "sophisticated" aficionados. When I say edify, I mean that it should enlighten, not confuse or turn people off. It's about drawing people in to notions that may have been inchoate in their minds, or. Or in their minds at all, but which the artist can untangle. Inane, meaningless ramblings uttered in a tortuous, sinuous voice have a big hill to climb.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:27 PM

Bugger. I meant Dave, not Steve.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:31 PM

"Or not in their minds at all." I'll get this right one of these decades. 😟


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:44 AM

Art is about edification The true artist urgently wants to communicate and to enlighten.

Really?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 04:53 AM

Art with a Purpose, eh?

I agree with much of what you say, Steve S - with one caveat. I do think that the creative impulse and purpose from within an artist can't always be explained, even by the artist him/herself, and there might not be a "goal" as such.

I don't think artists are always motivated by the desire to communicate, though they must be motivated to create, otherwise there wouldn't be any art. Whether they create for an audience or not is down to them, and I suppose you could say that, if it's not intended to be clear then it shouldn't be laid in front of the public. But that's a vexed question when, as we all know, one man's meat, etc...

I'm always reminded of "Ulysses" and "Finegan's Wake" when these debates arise. Read 'em and be enthralled? Read 'em and weep? Depends on your taste.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:17 AM

I could say "don't bother reading "em at all," but then I know what would happen - you'd remind me of that ould Guinness ad that said "I've never tried it and I don't like it!"

If an artist's work isn't communicating, or at least not without a gargantuan effort on the recipient's part, how is the confrontation between artist and layperson going to be achieved? How does anyone know that it's art? Is it really supposed to be reserved for the ultra-refined aficionado?   By the way, I never said that art should be "easy," or even MADE easy, just that there has to be a transaction involved. Fine by me if the artist manages it by by accident. What I'm against is deliberate obstacle-making. That just makes me suspect that the barrier is betraying a hidden emptiness behind the facade. Was Joyce doing that, or was he turning his book into a greater work of art by giving us a struggle? Do we over-interpret? We could argue all day about Joyce but we don't need to be spending all that time on a songsmith who deals largely in near-doggerel. Wouldn't mind betting that he'd agree with that himself.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:38 AM

So when you read Joyce Steve, what did you think he was doing? Challenging you or confronting you, or art they the same thing.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:57 AM

On the strength of Dylans literary gems that i have previously posted. might i suggest it goes to Cumberland Clark[ theDorsetMcGonagle] instead, for this poetic jewel which is on the same level as wiggle wiggle.
'If you go to the Boscombe Arcade
No excitement you'll meet I'm afraid.
You won't find the place is a tax on your strength
Four hundred and forty three feet is its length.
You walk to and fro with a dignified air:
Then you walk fro and to, or you sit on a chair;
And there isn't much else you can do when you're there.'
('Boscombe Arcade')


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:33 AM

Whether he challenges or confronts is just playing with words. Both are means of communication. Which is my point.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:43 AM

So, did you find Joyce obscure in any way, did your reading of him require any moments of stepping back and thinking about his method f communication?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 11:46 AM

On what are you basing your assumption that I've read him, by the way? And if I don't know who you are I'm not too keen to chat to you. I've been like that on forums for years, you know.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 12:53 PM

I guess I assumed that if you were commenting on Joyce, you would have read him. As for not knowing who I am, I don't see that it matters as I have asked a fairly reasonable question. But, as you will.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 01:07 PM

Who are you? why be anonymous? do you have an agenda,my name is Dick Miles, what is your name?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 01:38 PM

No, I do not have an agenda. I am being anonymous because the rules here allow me to be so. I know your name is Dick Miles, but I don't know what your point is ..do you ? I have simply asked Steve how he came to comment on James Joyce..nothing more, simple question... yes ?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:40 PM

There is notthing I've said that would indicate whether I've read it or not. Not at all keen on sparring with anonymous guests. I battled for months here against a troll who was operating under two identities. Sadly, he's still around but at least he is semi-outed. Unless he's you. See what I mean? Either reveal yourself or talk to someone else. Free country. Over and out.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:24 PM

<<>>

So Dylan didn't communicate? I wonder what those millions of people who went to concerts and bought the records were getting out of it then?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:38 PM

A bit like religion then!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 06:04 PM

Time out for a musical interlude. This is a humourous Dylan parody that also incorporates Woody Guthrie and Bruce Springsteen, performed by Dan Bern. I think you'll enjoy it.

"Talkin Woody, Bob, Bruce and Dan Blues,"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:06 PM

If you comment on the intentions of an author it is not unreasonable to assume you have read that author. My anonymity does not negate the question, does it.
In any case, you have denigrated a lot of people who enjoy Bob Dylan, your prerogative... I am simply asking how you draw these conclusion about Joyce. I do read jamesJoyce, so I am simply asking how your reading of him brought you to the opinions you express. Not complicated, just a point for discussion.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:49 PM

I'm glad you enjoy Joyce. You can goad me 'til the cows come home but you are unjustified in assuming that I either have or have not read Joyce. That is pretty obvious from all the posts I've made since the matter was first raised. Your pressing on this matter looks suspicious. I'll take the high road and assume that you are such an aficionado of Joyce that you're dying to share. I used to think that about Beethoven. These days I'm content to indulge without drawing people in.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:28 PM

I am not goading you at all MrShaw, I am simply asking a perfectly honest question.. What in your reading of Joyce led you to make your observations . Good on you for taking the high road, admirable I am sure!. I am not an aficionado of Joyce, I enjoy him, nothing more or less .
In any case, I will ask no further, ,,


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM

Perfect honesty online involves eschewing anonymity. Not wishing to impugn yours, but you could aspire harder.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,rewster
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:42 PM

he fooled us all


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:45 PM

Oops, the link to the Dan Bern song is not right, this should get you there:

"Talkin Woody, Bob, Bruce and Dan Blues,"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:52 PM

You can't fool all the people all the time!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:55 PM

No, you certainly can't


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:45 PM

"Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Gardham - PM
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:24 PM

<<>>

So Dylan didn't communicate? I wonder what those millions of people who went to concerts and bought the records were getting out of it then?"      hero worship? pseudish gibberish?
what about the millions of people who attended Cliff Richard concerts?they got enjoyment out of listening to Banal lyrics, and hero worshipping mr squeaky clean, Cliff,Cliff communicated such gems as were all going on a summer holiday
We're all going on a summer holiday
No more working for a week or two.
Fun and laughter on our summer holiday,
No more worries for me or you,
For a week or two.
We're going where the sun shines brightly
We're going where the sea is blue.
We've all seen it on the movies,
Now let's see if it's true.
Everybody has a summer holiday
Doin' things they always wanted to
So we're going on a summer holiday,
To make our dreams come true
For me and you.
For me and you
marginally better than wiggle wiggle


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:57 PM

At least with Cliff, it was clear, he was going on a summer holiday, true its banal crap. wheras this is an intellectual masterpiece ,very deep and philisophical
Ballad Of A Thin Man
Bob Dylan
You walk into the room with your pencil in your hand
You see somebody naked and you say, "Who is that man?"
You try so hard but you don't understand
Just what you will say when you get home
Because something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
You raise up your head and you ask, "Is this where it is?"
And somebody points to you and says, "It's his"
And you say, "What's mine?" and somebody else says, "Well, what is?"
And you say, "Oh my God, am I here all alone?"
But something is happening and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
You hand in your ticket and you go watch the geek
Who immediately walks up to you when he hears you speak
And says, "How does it feel to be such a freak?"
And you say, "Impossible!" as he hands you a bone
And something is happening here but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
You have many contacts among the lumberjacks
To get you facts when someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect, anyway they already expect you to all give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations
Ah, you've been with the professors and they've all liked your looks
With great lawyers you have discussed lepers and crooks
You've been through all of F. Scott Fitzgerald's books
You're very well-read, it's well-known
But something is happening here and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
Well, the sword swallower, he comes up to you and then he kneels
He crosses himself and then he clicks his high heels
And without further notice, he asks you how it feels
And he says, "Here is your throat back, thanks for the loan"
And you know something is happening but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
Now, you see this one-eyed midget shouting the word "Now"
And you say, "For what reason?" and he says, "How"
And you say, "What does this mean?" and he screams back, "You're a cow!
Give me some milk or else go home"
And you know something's happening but you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
Well, you walk into the room like a camel, and then you frown
You put your eyes in your pocket and your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law against you comin' around
You should be made to wear earphones
'Cause something is happening and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
Songwriters: Bob Dylan


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 08:00 AM

Cambridge University will be offering a course to study Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen...............what, no Ewan MacColl, it's an outrage.

GSS, here's your opportunity to uncover the deeper meanings behind his lyrics that elude you.

Changing Times


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 08:03 PM

I do not need that,because there are no deeper meanings to wiggle wiggle or ballad of plain d, his good songs like masters of war need no explaining either.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 01:08 PM

Well, he is going to fetch it, finally...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 17 - 01:21 PM

Well good on him, well deserved.


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