Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 06:31 AM

It would be interesting to know precisely how Bob Dylan has distanced himself from the "establishment."

Again, the point has been made a couple of times in the thread this morning that Bob has produced dross (no-one's tackled Dick on that as yet). Unlike many greats, he has allowed his bad bits to stay public, not much evidence of suppression or revision. You could wonder whether he himself can actually see what's wheat and what's chaff.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 09:39 AM

For such a literary giant he appears to have a rather strange understanding of "speechless."

He said left not leaves me speechless. For a know it all, you appear to have a rather strange understanding of grammar...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 10:39 AM

Maybe the chaff will evolve. As for addressing Dick, read a book, he's written quite a few. Steve Shaw, this is not a cause for sainthood it's a peace prize.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:30 AM

Er, no it isn't...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:35 AM

"He said left not leaves me speechless. For a know it all, you appear to have a rather strange understanding of grammar..."

Well, we won't mention this dreadfully-punctuated sentence of yours, shall we, Mr Hair-splitter? In fact, I know nothing. I come from Barcelona...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:38 AM

Well poor old ponderous me what is it? (And yes I know you can run circles round me so speak plainly)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: meself
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 11:45 AM

"Some will rob you with a six gun and some with a fountain pen" - Woody Guthrie. "Universal Soldier" - Buffy Ste.-Marie. One or two or three other misattributions on this thread, but I've forgotten what they are .....

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:05 PM

Steve, I would have thought that, as Dylan was anti-war, that alone would place him in the anti-establishment camp? ('Blowing in the Wind' etc)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 12:29 PM

You're welcome, and I wonder if they put it back now that he has, imo, graciously, acknowledged the surprising but not, imo, undeserved honor.
The discussion going on amongst my kith&kin is whether lyrics are literature, not whether he deserved the prize. The only other category is promoting peace, and ending the last war on a continent trumps lyrics.
Speaking of which (get it?), I think part of this award is intended as a reminder to America of what we used to be about, and should go back to being about, again, imho. What do y'all think of that idea?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:12 PM

At our singaround a week ago yesterday, in honour of our new Nobel laureate, we sang the back seat of the school bus version of one of his songs -

"How many beans in a baked bean tin?
How many beans in the tin?

The answer my friend ......"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 01:51 PM

Been away taking in the glories of the latest Ken Loach - was hoping to return to be bowled over with thought-provoking argument - ah well!!
Still only vacuous defence of something the |Master Himself has fessed up on.
"Dylan was anti-war, that alone would place him in the anti-establishment camp?"
Dylan's Anti-war stance came when it was a fashion item 'must' - I can find only one somewhat anodyne mention of Vietnam during thee whole of the decade that his government was soaking Vietnamese peasants in burning petrol and filling their air with carcinogenic Agent Orange (which was also killing off U.S. pilots)
C'mon' - even L.B.J. could sing 'We Shall Overcome with a straight face!!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 02:12 PM

Ok then Jim, what about his civil rights stance?
And while many of us were anti-war, ban the bomb etc, not everyone wrote as expressively as Dylan did. (Maybe the First World War poets, well before his time)

Interesting point Mrrzy. Is poetry found in song lyrics? Myself, I think it is. If one reads them without the music, they still resonate (for me anyway) and evoke sentiment and atmosphere.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:23 PM

"Ok then Jim, what about his civil rights stance?"
Money-spinning lip service - no more
When he was asked to go on the Freedom Rides - his manager rfused on his behalf
He was finally embarrassed into taking part by a Hollywood actor/singer paying his fare
The protesters in the U.S. even Liberal America, mobilised big time against the Vietnam War,- not a peep out of Little Boy in Blue - even after the Kent State shooting.
Is nobody goiung to respond to what he said about his own music - is his own description as worthless as that?
"Is poetry found in song lyrics? "
Good lyrics are full of it - it's why bad lyrics are described as "doggerel".
Decf:
"verse or words that are badly written or expressed.
"the last stanza deteriorates into doggerel""
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Andy7
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:42 PM

Bob Dylan chose his name well.

I suspect that, if he'd been John Smith, or Pete Jones, he wouldn't have become so famous.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 04:23 PM

And it's quite interesting that so many of Bob's defenders resort to telling us how good he was way back in the sixties. It's 2016, guys!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:55 AM

Dylan gots a Defender? Awesome! Classy ride...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:59 AM

Bob's defenders resort to telling us how good he was way back in the sixties. It's 2016, guys!

Great point, Steve! After all, your hero Beethoven has produced some sensational pieces in the last few years, hasn't he?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:17 AM

I suspect that, if he'd been John Smith, or Pete Jones, he wouldn't have become so famous.

Zimmerman would?

Well if other forums evoke the same volume of debate and nebulous opinions on whether lyrics are poetry (and I am sure they have) then his Bobness still has the power to move people.

That's what enigmas do!

A good job Bob hasn't pronounced on Trump, now that would spark a debate and a half. (Oh dear I may have invoked inverse Godwin's Rule and this debate never ends!)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Senoufou/Eliza
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:25 AM

Ha Mr Red! Imagine a thread comprising Trump, Brexit, Homophobia, The Labour Party, Religion In Schools and Climate Change. I wish I could think of an opening post for that one. Mudcat would explode and the fragments would be found on Mars...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:29 AM

Comparisons are odious, as they say, but let's take a look at the 113 Laureates over the years. Ask yourself how many you've read - or even how many you've heard of. Enjoy the reasons for the award.

List of Nobel laureates in Literature

I'd actually heard of 57 of them, and read all or part (mainly part) of about a dozen or so of that 57. I particularly like the citation extract for the joint 1917 winner, Henrik Pontoppidan - ""for his authentic descriptions of present-day life in Denmark". No doubt a stirring read...

As for song lyrics being poetry, I once listened to an excellent talk by the late, great Ian Dury - one of the wittiest and sharpest of modern, urban song writers in my view - at the Hay-on-Wye festival. The topic was about whether song lyrics were poetry or otherwise. ID was adamant that they were separate, and that his own lyrics in particular were just song lyrics - that and no more. His poetry, should he have written any, would have been a different kettle of fish. The interesting thing was that many in the audience disagreed with him - in the nicest possible way.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:46 AM

Can I just explain where I am at in all this.
I have no problem with performers who don't ring my bells - the world's full of them - "à chacun son goût", as far as I'm concerned.
I don't like Dylan as a performer - I never did - so what?
As a Liverpudlian, I never rated the Beatles much - a talented but over-hyped pop-group - nothing more - a group which made me finally decide to leave home and seek fresh pastures - if you didn't like them or football, Liverpool had s.f.a. else to offer in those days (it has little to offer half a century later other than giant models of The Yellow Submarine, and airpornt named after a dead pop-star and guided tours around an old orange warehouse which became Liverpool's finest Jazz Club until it was smegged up by four musical haircuts).   
Dylan is different - it's not his singing that gets up my nose - there are plenty of indifferent singers that have made it to the top.
It's the cult status he has achieved which provoke the attitudes that have once more put in an appearance here - if you say you don' like him, people start telling you what's wrong with you.
I have my own musical tastes, MacColl being the foremost performer at the top of my particular chart.
If I behaved towards those who didn't like him, the way people who didn't like him, the way some have reacted here because I feel the way I do about Dylan, there'be be shrieks of 'Folk-Fascist' which could be heard from here to Inishmore - sometimes it's like a time-trip back to the balmy days of Groupies and Teeny-Boppers.
If people want to discuss what THEY FIND in Dylan's music - fine - we have something to work on, but please don't tell me why I DON'T like him - and don't tell my why I should.
You might start with what he has said about his own compositions - no takers so far!
The maybe we might get around to an explanation of the overblown gibberish that is 'Blowin' in the Wind'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:29 AM

people are not prepared to give examples of good lyric writing or good poetry from Bob Dylan, they retreat behind "you dont get it". It should be possible for his admirers to give examples of good song writing[ other than masters of war] good song writing TECHNIQUE is not just about personal taste.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

good song writing TECHNIQUE is not just about personal taste.

Could you elucidate please?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:39 AM

I couldn't care less about Dylan either way but, perhaps for a change Dick, you might define what you consider "good lyric writing" to be - rather than constantly challenging others to justify Dylan's writing.

Given that any definition of "good" is inevitably personal taste, I'd be interested to see you give us an example of what you consider good lyric writing - and why.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 04:40 AM

Rather a vacuous post, Guest Ed. Ludwig became mightier and mightier right to the very end of his life. Listen to the quartet in F, composed a few months before he died. His very best stuff came in his last five years on earth. Never stopped developing. There isn't much eulogising about Bob's last few decades, is there?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:19 AM

The Joy of Living. THIS FITS MY DEFINITION OF A WELL WRITTEN SONG.
Farewell, you northern hills, you mountains all goodbye
Moorlands and stony ridges, crags and peaks, goodbye
Glyder Fach farewell, cold big Scafell, cloud-bearing Suilven
Sun-warmed rocks and the cold of Bleaklow's frozen sea
The snow and the wind and the rain of hills and mountains
Days in the sun and the tempered wind and the air like wine
And you drink and you drink till you're drunk on the joy of living
Farewell to you, my love, my time is almost done
Lie in my arms once more until the darkness comes
You filled all my days, held the night at bay, dearest companion
Years pass by and they're gone with the speed of birds in flight
Our lives like the verse of a song heard in the mountains
Give me your hand and love and join your voice with mine
And we'll sing of the hurt and the pain and the joy of living
Farewell to you, my chicks, soon you must fly alone
Flesh of my flesh, my future life, bone of my bone
May your wings be strong may your days be long safe be your journey
Each of you bears inside of you the gift of love
May it bring you light and warmth and the pleasure of giving
Eagerly savour each new day and the taste of its mouth
Never lose sight of the thrill and the joy of living
Take me to some high place of heather, rock and ling
Scatter my dust and ashes, feed me to the wind
So that I may be part of all you see, the air you are breathing
I'll be part of the curlew's cry and the soaring hawk,
The blue milkwort and the sundew hung with diamonds
I'll be riding the gentle breeze as it blows through your hair
Reminding you how we shared in the joy of living.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:31 AM

That seems a fairly spurious argument, Steve. We can obviously never know what Beethoven may have produced in his 60s or 70s. Maybe great, maybe not.

Anyway, its beside the point. There are a multitude of people in a multitude of fields who made their greatest contributions at a fairly young age. Do we bemoan Einstein because his work on relativity was conducted in his 20s and 30s, and his later opposition to quantum theory subsequently disproved? Does that mean he wasn't a genius?

By the way, I don't think that Dylan is a genius, but I like his work well enough.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:33 AM

Nice poem, Dick - thanks for posting it. So, what are the elements of the poem which make it work for you lyrically?

(Who's the author, by the way?)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:37 AM

Will,

It is, unsurprisingly enough, Ewan MacColl

Good Soldier,

As this thread proves, you have clearly mastered 'Copy and Paste'. Perhaps you could start working on line breaks next?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:48 AM

It's very good, though the stuff in the last five lines or so has become a cliche, with something similar (but usually not as good) trotted out in many a funeral's eulogy. Perhaps Ewan was one of the first...

Do have a look back at the rather specious remark you made in your post before last, Guest Ed. Not your finest hour.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 05:57 AM

Thanks for the info, GUEST - I'm not greatly familiar with much of McColl's oeuvre.

Now, I can make my own judgements as to why, for me, the lyrics in that poem work - the techniques involved in creating it, the elements that mesh in it and how, etc. - but I'd be interested in why you think it works, Dick.

You see, the point is that it's easy to just say that someone's work is rubbish and then challenge others to disprove your statement. But the opposite side of that equation is for you to state clearly - by contrast - why you think something is technically good or bad. There's just as much of an onus there.

We can all say that we like or dislike something - it is, after all, personal taste - but not always easy to justify, clearly, the reasons for the like or dislike. Much of this thread is just a lot of "he's crap"/"he's great" statements - over and over again. If people can't give cogent reasons, then perhaps they should just beg to differ.

I think it's also worth remembering that the lure and popularity of certain types of music doesn't always rest on logical arguments about artistic integrity. I have a great affection for what many would consider the meaningless music from the '50s - Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, etc. Why do I like it? Not for its literary merits - just for its sheer energy, fun and danceability. No logic there - just a hot feeling, and perhaps a little nostalgia.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 07:08 AM

What's very good about that particular set of song words is that it has a rhythm and lyricism that allows it to stand alone as an evocative read, even without the tune. There are some lovely notions that are expressed in a flowing and non-jarring way. I challenge anyone here to find a substantial piece of Dylan's writing about which that may be said (the notions don't need to be lovely ones, by the way). It's a cautionary tale for those who claim that song lyrics and poetry are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 08:02 AM

Harmonica playing bore

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:21 AM

You're just jealous.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:34 AM

Naw

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:45 AM

Yep. It's a known fact that the harpman gets the girl. I hope you're not a girl.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

And anyway, I'd rather be a harmonica-playing bore than a harmonica-owning bore.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 10:49 AM

Basically, this is no longer about the news that Dylan was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature, and IS about "I like Dylan" vs "I don't".

I'm sure I don't have a solution
I'm surprised and shocked at this de-evolution
Chalk it up to opinion pollution
And let it ride

Cuz you won't convince me
I won't convince you
We know only our way is true
Just pick a side

Pick a side and fight
You don't care if you're right
Set this talk alight
With the disdain and hate
You feel for those who
In poetry and prose do
Express what you can't understand
And why?
Because it's too much work to try.

...word. ☺

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:00 AM

"and IS about "I like Dylan" vs "I don't"."
Only if you ignore the arguments
Isn't this always what happens?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:17 AM

Poets are not there to express things in a way I can't understand. They are there to enlighten, to set off a spark of insight in us that needed setting off. To turn the inchoate into real ideas. Not to pen obscure mixtures of words for an in-crowd. Dylan aficionados really need to stop telling us that we don't get it. I've read what Dick posted here (enough, Dick, by the way) and I get it all right. Well, some of it seems ungettable by any measure, but there you go. If his language and demeanour doesn't chime with my life experiences, maybe it's Bob who doesn't get it. Take a look at any selection of lines from the Ewan MacColl song posted above. Full of ideas expressed in a near-ideal way, warmly lyrical and life-affirming. Full of those little sparks. He didn't even have to make the excuse that he was writing song words, not poetry. It IS poetry. And it's a damn fine song. And I'm not his number one fan either.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:27 AM

Will, gives a typical politicians answer AND WAY OUT to the Dylan admirers who have not answered   my original question.
none of the Dylan admirers have answered my question.
Will,if you want to seriously find out about good songwriting technique go to a workshop, you know as well as I do there are established guidelines to good songwriting, Dylan fails these on a few occasions, it is nothing to do with taste but poor ryhming[ moon in june stuff]poor use of meter, unimasginative approach[ hattie carroll, this one is like mcGonagle]

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 11:42 AM

The point is, "what is the purpose of this thread?"

Dick wants somebody to explain things to him. I'm quite sure he won't understand what anyone tries to tell him, and HE DOESN'T WANT TO. It's not a good faith question. It's an imaginary chip on his shoulder.

Explain why I should love what the wrecking crew do when they ass rape threads until nobody other than the bitter, argumentative, whiny old past-their-relevences want to get involved in discussions anymore.

So have fun bitching, whining, pissing and moaning about things you're impotent to affect and fucking this thread until it dies. I don't think it's something most folks here enjoy.

I think I'd be more effective going to a Trump rally and trying to explain "tolerance" to the people there.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:07 PM

"Explain why I should love what the wrecking crew do "
It's this dishonest nastiness the nauses up these threads - as far as I am concerned it is a sign that those who behave like this have no confidence in their own argument.
No performer, no matter how good or highly praised, is above criticism, yet doses of unpleasantness such as this preclude ant honest and open discussion - I perfect example of folk fascism (if Dylan had been a folk singer) - Ivory Towerism at its very worst.
The fact than none of the sycophants here are not even prepared to give a nod to what Dylan has said about his own work says what needs to be said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

Google Autocomplete nominated for the Nobel

I've just started on a book by another Nobel winner, Derek Walcott's Omeros. I don't think autocomplete could fake that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:28 PM

Dick, I'll respond just once more - with the repeated statement that Dylan doesn't impinge on my consciousness very much. Neither does the Nobel Prize, which I think is an irrelevance - just my personal view.

I don't know what you mean by a "politician's response". What interests me is that it's very easy to criticise someone's work and then, when admirers of that work challenge the criticism - keep repeating that they're the ones who are asked to justify the work. An opposite view would be: if you stand up and criticise someone's work - give your reasons, rather than demand from others that the work be justified.

I think that's a fair point.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:41 PM

Well I'm here in good faith, thank you, and am receptive to all points of view. I've spent a fair bit of time composing my own posts, been called a bore, etc., told I don't get it, been parcelled with trolls, but I'm still listening. Are you sure you're a fit and proper person to be a mod, Jeri? Pretty ugly, sweary, negative post, that one...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 12:46 PM

"Pretty ugly, sweary, negative post, that one..."
A mod. - really??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 01:27 PM

Well I thought so. Could be wrong I suppose.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 02:49 PM

Rumbling Equake & Xtreme Lighting (near miss)

WHOA

POWERFUL


Boy Steve, but I fail to see what's that got to do with Dylan being a boring harmonica player

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan: Nobel laureate
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Oct 16 - 03:41 PM

Jim – speaking as one of the sycophants to whom you refer I cannot believe that you of all people should have fallen for this so called interview which is clearly a hoax, a satire or a piss take at best. It was outed as such in The Guardian in the last couple of weeks and brought into question on this very forum back in 2013. The source of the interview is not given but "Rolling Stone" seems to be quoted; but try Googling that and you'll only find reference to a 2012 interview which, while being pretty feisty, does not contain any of the quotes emanating from the diatribe that you publish.
Which book is he supposed to be promoting - "Chronicles" was published in 2004 and there has been nothing since. Does that alone not cause us to smell a rat?
How about outing Jack Speedwell who you quote in both of these threads?