BS: So!

Subject: BS: So!
From: Jim Martin
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:54 AM

In the last year, I've noticed when someone's being questioned on TV/radio, in their reply, they always seem to start their sentence with "So". Where did this come from?

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 06:20 AM

"Well"

It occurs to me that when you start a remark with "so" it is likely to be assertive, whereas "well" seems to imply a more reflective approach.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Stu
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:47 AM

"Look…"

At which point you know they're talking cobblers.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:52 AM

'Basically...' This always gets my hackles up, as it implies you're far too thick to understand any rather complicated explanation, so they've adapted their reply especially for your limited brain.

I also dislike 'In actual fact...' as if they considered lying, but thought better of it and will now tell you something that is true.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:59 AM

Using "So" is a term I have heard often in some areas on the West coast of Ireland. I have presumed it to be a regional quirk. Where was the panelist from?

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:06 AM

Oh my mother (from Cork) used 'so' after a statement. For example, "She doesn't like lemonade so." It never seemed to mean anything, just a word you bunged at the end of a sentence.
Mrs Doyle in Father Ted said it a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:23 AM

Reporter: Vice President Cheney, you have said that American citizens who are deemed enemy combatants may be detained or killed without due process, is this true?

Cheney: So?

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 08:58 AM

Grand so.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 09:41 AM

In Baden-Wurttemburg, the part of Germany where I did my NATOdienst, the terminal syllable of any given sentence was Neh, often pronounced with a little upward tilt, like the Canadian Eh.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:09 AM

It's extremely, appallingly prevalent over here. I have no idea how it got started or why it was desirable enough to perpetuate. Drives me nuts. I don't see the reason an answer needs a "so" or a "well" as a preface.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 10:57 AM

Calm down Jeri, it's just a harmless affectation that allows someone an extra second or two to compose their reply.

I would think the panelist is probably from somewhere in the west or south-west of Ireland. Another common one is "now" before a sentence as in "Now, what will you be having" when you go to a bar.

Incidentally Jim my recognition of it goes back much further than the last year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:06 AM

Our local Chinese medicine practitioner taught a series on Chinese medicine. I volunteered to edit the recordings, so that she could distribute them on CD. I soon realized that she began every new section with, "Sooooo...." That word looked the same every time on the oscilloscope display on Audacity.
Sooooo....it made it quite easy to edit her recordings.
Joe

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:15 AM

Well, like so?

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 11:28 AM

No, Rap, that's not the right way to do it.
"What do you think about people starting replies with 'so'?"
"So... it sometimes bothers me, and it sometimes doesn't. It's like a vocal tic, sort of. Not my problem."

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 02:12 PM

For those who get irritated at this kind of thing, "Like" is another example.

I don't see any reason Feeling tgat way. Little decorations that may not add meaning, but do add texture. And they can change meaning.

"Then" is another example - like "so" it can be added at the front or back of a remark. And front or back makes a difference. At the beginning it can make it sound like a command, at the end it sounds more like a sugegestion. "So would you like a cup of tea?" Seems to imply "Make up your mind- I haven't all day". "Would you like a cup of tea, so?" somehow doesn't have that hidden sense. The same difference seems to be implied by the positioning of "Then" - "Then have you made your decision?. Or "have you made your decision then?"

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM

You're right, McGrath. These little nuances are quite important in conversation. It makes learning English rather difficult for foreigners.
The word 'Well...' could mean that the person isn't happy about what has just been asked, in fact they feel it's inappropriate or impertinent. But they're too polite to say so, and the 'Well...' with a shrug is meant to warn the other person that they've overstepped the mark. As in, "Do you find my wife attractive?" "Well..."

The little word 'And?' can mean 'So what?' or 'That's not important'. As in, "I've just put the bin out." "And?"

My husband speaks Malinke and also a creole called Noushi. There's a handy little word in Noushi which means 'Isn't it?' Didn't he?' 'Wasn't it?' and a myriad similar expressions. It's "Deh!" It starts with an implosive 'd' and ends with a glottal stop. I use it myself, as it's so short and handy! I might say, "Those curtains need a wash, deh!"

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:04 PM

"The truth is" - it's a statistic and its a lie.

"In my estimation" - opinion

"When I was young" - things haven't changed that much but go ahead, and you won't tell me when you are wrong.

"As I said before" - why don't you hang on my every word?

"pleb" - I will deny it, even if the cameras are rolling.

"I didn't have sexual relations with that woman" - er I think we are about to have a re-run of that phrase!

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: JennieG
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 03:27 PM

One which seems to be prevalent in Oz is "yeah - no" when asked a question, it seems to mean "yeah I hear your question, and the answer is no".

Is it said elsewhere? It is beginning to annoy me.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:01 PM

Why does it annoy you? It sounds quite a neat little way of saying that in fewer words. I can't say I've noticed it, but I'll listen out for it. I think I might well say in those circumstances "Well, yeah - but no".

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: gnu
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:20 PM

So, well, there ya go, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:33 PM

I really adore "Innit!" but sadly it seems to be going out of fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:38 PM

Senoufou, your Cork mother's usage of 'so' is an Irish way of saying "in that case".
"You won't have any more apple pie, so?" = "Since you're too full to eat any more, you won't have any more apple pie."
"I'll leave it there, so." = "I will have no further discussion about this subject, in that case."
It's used like this: "The plane's delayed an hour? They'll be an hour late, so."

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:42 PM

Incidentally, the word 'so' has migrated from English into Irish in the last century. Until Irish was so pressed-in-upon by English, 'agus' ('and') was used in contexts where 'so' would normally be used in English; now, however, 'so' is used. I mean, of course, in sentences like 'He's going to be late, so she'll be annoyed'.
In senses like 'I'll leave it there so', the normal usage in Irish (always, including today) would be '…má 'sea'.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 04:51 PM

In NZ, it was my experience that the word "No" made you think the meaning was "no".

WRONG!

It often meant "I don't know but as you asked in a Pommy accent I ain'tagonna admit it"

Even in the reference section of the Capital's main library when asking about the history of a folk hero.
the next week I got hold of the main person and sheepishly asked again in generic terms and she wanted specifics and when I elucidated she produced a file just about that one thing! A dog.

It was the first but by no means the last example I encountered. Even when challenged they insisted they were in the right!

If they started the sentence with "Awe yea" they were not maybe agreeing with you per se. as in "Awe yea G'day" not to be confused with the Australian greeting, there they just "G'day" you. "Mateo"

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:26 PM

That's fascinating Thompson. We were brought up in the suburbs of London, so regarded my mother's Irish speech as very different from our 'Cockney' type of accent. Half of what she said was quite odd to us!
Another thing she often used was a word that sounded like 'Allerwan'. I think it may have meant 'I bet', as in "She'll be famished when she comes in, allerwan." Can anyone enlighten me about that?

She used a lot of daft expressions which made us giggle. "She smiled, that's all she said." "Get up and get down!" (to get us out of bed in the mornings), "I went so fast I met meself coming back!" and so on.

Agus is 'and' in Scots Gaelic too I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 05:43 PM

Ah gwan! (Ah, go on!) Did she say "Go on outa that"? What about "Get up the yard!"?

Did she accuse you of andrewmartins? "None of them andrewmartins" - ie, goings-on, messing.

I believe that the Irish "Is that a thing?" meaning "Does such a concept exist?" has recently moved across the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: meself
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 06:31 PM

Here is a thread on the subject from 2015.

I thought I started one on it once, but maybe not - still looking ....

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: meself
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 06:39 PM

Ah, here it is: my thread from 2012.

Of course, whenever you bring up a question related to something like this, don't expect to get an actual answer - expect everyone to jump with their language-as-she's-spoken pet peeves ....

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 16 - 07:11 PM

I love those peeves, including my own - especially when it turns out that a particularly well petted and cosseted peeve with its own comfy basket in the corner of my gurning heart was "first noted 1381" when I go to look it up to prove that it's altogether wrong and immoral.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 01:06 AM

McGrath of Harlow, I think it's annoying because people who use it don't stop to think that they could just say "no" - a much more succinct and accurate answer!

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 03:44 AM

one of my pet peeves is people telling me I have a pet peeve.

NO!

I have Bête Noires, misnomeric annoyances, grammatical irritations - & they have the cheek to call me a pedant!

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:25 AM

Mr Red, I don't think anyone would call you pedantic.


Abstruse, didactic, stilted, pompous, egotistic, hair-splitting, nit-picking, ostentatious, pedagogic, priggish and perhaps punctilious but never pedantic.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 06:26 AM

Pedants of the world - unite!

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 06:33 AM

or even Untie

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Jim Martin
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 06:57 AM

Thanks to everyone for all your responses, the power of 'Mudcat', so!
I was particularly interested in the comments about the use of 'so' at the end of sentences in Ireland which I hadn't really noticed until I moved here 15 yrs ago.
For those of you whe have the time, can I recommend an expert on the correct use of the English language, Neville Gwynne, who appears on BBC Radio 5 Live's 'Up All Night' programme, early on Monday mornings (from 01.00).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUriLAeu3IQ

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:17 PM

< i>I think it's annoying because people who use it don't stop to think that they could just say "no" - a much more succinct and accurate answer!

What's so important about being succinct? Monosyllabic exchanges don't make for great conversation.   It's worth considering that there are not words for "yes" and "no" in either Latin or Irish...

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:25 PM

I think it's annoying because people who use it don't stop to think that they could just say "no" - a much more succinct and accurate answer!

What's so important about being succinct? Monosyllabic exchanges don't make for great conversation.   It's worth considering that there are not any words "yes" and "no" in either Latin or Irish...

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: JennieG
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 11:54 PM

How about that......a repeat answer!

McGrath, I don't know why it irritates me but it does. It gives me a strong dose of the irrits, to use a local phrase. Same as people who say "absolutely" instead of "yes", or even worse "absy" because half the word is swallowed.

No doubt we all have our own level of irritation, and that is mine. Yours is obviously different, and that is quite all right.

Raggytash, I did hesitate before typing "unite", I was this close (holds up index finger and thumb an infinitesimal amount apart) to typing untie!

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 12:23 AM

Ideally

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:32 AM

Abstruse, didactic, stilted, pompous, egotistic, hair-splitting, nit-picking, ostentatious, pedagogic, priggish and perhaps punctilious but never pedantic.
Raggytash - you charmer you!

pedagogic eh? That's taught me a new word! (you missed out subtle BTW)

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:18 AM

I'm glad you enjoyed it Mr Red, I was a tad reluctant as some of this forum appear to have mislaid their sense of humour.

For the Americans amongst us that is the correct spelling it's not humor, trust me, it's not difficult to type in the letter U.








I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:56 AM

Context, and tone often help in comprehending why a ' so ', is used before a reply , but like raggy, I think it is often just a filler that fills in the space while a reply is formulated . I think it is sometimes used as a sort of question like if I understand you correctly....

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:17 AM

So, a needle pulling thread





I'll get my coat..............

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:18 AM

I'll be back on the Connemara next week. One phrase that is prevalent in shops and bars is "Thanks a Million" when conducting an exchange of cash and goods. Personally I find it both delightful and charming, one of the many idiosyncratic (to me at least) expressions of the wonderful people there.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:20 AM

So "irrits" is OK, but "absy" is not, Jennie?...

It's all pretty arbitrary - while I'm fine with the kind of extra words we've been talking about, the abbreviations like that, for example "uni" for university, do jar my sensibilities. It's not so much different levels of irritability, it's different triggers.

One thing about "yes" and "no" is that their absence in Irish seems to have carried over into English speaking Irish. It seems far more natural to say "It is" or "I do" in answer to a question where others might say "Yes". This can give an impression of being a bit evasive.

There's a game where a questioner tries to get the other person to say "Yes" or "No" in response to a series of quick questions. If you're Irish, or from an Irish background, the chances are you'll win it every time.
......
The difference of many spellings in the US and the UK (and most English speaking countries) is quite useful on the Cat - it helps give a clue as to where we are, which sometimes can be relevant.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

Ouch ! Mr Red, that one caused a grimace.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:25 AM

You got the point - I could do even worse!

Raggytash is off to Connemara............
"So he is"

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 10:52 AM

In my neighborhood, people start with So when they are drawing a conclusion. Like this:

So Mark is off buying beer and Bill is hooking up the trailer. There will be a delay. Let's say we meet at the boat ramp at 3 o'clock.
===========
So you're saying that he watered the workers' beer?
===========
I once knew a guy, a lawyer, who could get a laugh simply by bellowing "So!" in a cynical, courtroom fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 12:17 PM

It makes a difference if the "So" has a question mark or an exclamation mark. It's remarkable the way we can hear which one is intended.

"So?" he said.   "So!" I replied.

Subject: RE: BS: So!
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:07 PM

In my experience "so" in Ireland does not carry any exclamation, there is a vague "question" in some circumstances.

I said earlier that it appears to be an opportunity to create a space so that the speaker may allow themselves a little time to formulate their next sentence.

Long may it continue.