Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 08:35 PM

Hi,

I'm going to do a Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants, Part 2 since this is getting rather long and it's hard to see all the posts.

So thanks everyone- please reply to this thread- Part 2

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 09:23 AM

TY, Lighter, I emailed the person who had the Ferguson info on her site, no response yet.

Hi Gwilym, I finally did find a listing for Mrs. Packer on Roud with no text:

A Brisk Young Sailor
Roud Folksong Index (S329128)
First Line:
Source: Percy Grainger Phonograph (Cylinder) Collection (VWML CDA Tape Collection No.3)
Performer: Packer, Mrs.
Date: 1908 (5 Apr)
Place: England: Gloucestershire: Winchcombe
Collector: Grainger, Percy

I haven't found any source except for GlosTrad with the text which is:

3. There is a tavern in the town,
And there my true love sits him down
And takes another lass on his knee,
And never ever thinks of me.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 06:30 AM

Hi Richie,

I'll respond to your queries next week when I have more time.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jan 17 - 05:51 PM

My search hasn't been exhaustive, but I don't see anything like it in Ferguson's volume of collected poetry online.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jan 17 - 02:40 PM

Hi,

The info on Apron of Flowers being written by Ulster poet, Samuel Ferguson, in 1856 is unverified and appears on a website. And info about this would help.

A similar text is Over yonder's Hill on Devon Tradition (12TS349, 1979) and reissued on TSCD661 'My Father is the King of the Gypsies.' This version was learned by Amy Birch from her mother, Dehlia Crocker, who kept a notebook of her songs. It was also recorded by Birch's daughter Jean Orchard who apparently used her grandmother's text. There are only a handful of differences between Jean and Amy's versions.

Over Yonder's Hill - sung by Amy Birch; recorded by Sam Richards, Paul Wilson and Tish Stubbs in the singer's trailer at Exebridge, Devon, November 1976.

Over yonder's hill there is an old house,
Where my true love goes and sits himself down,
Takes another fresh girl on his knee,
Now don't you think that's a grief to me?

A grief a grief I'll tell you for why,
Because she has more gold than I,
Gold may glitter and silver will shine,
And all my sorrows will fade in time.

I wish the Lord my baby was born,
And sit smiling in his own daddy's arms,
And me myself wrapped up in cold clay,
Then all my sorrows would fade away.

There is a flower I have heard people say,
They grow by night and it fades by day,
Now if that flower I could find,
It would cure my heart and ease my mind.

So across the fields that poor girl she ran,
Gathering flowers just as they sprang,
Some she picked and some she pulled,
Until she gathered her apron full.

She takes them home and she makes her bed,
She puts a snow white pillow in under her head,
She lies down and she closed her eyes,
Closed her eyes, no more for to rise.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 20 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM

Hi,

Apparently Apron of Flowers is an Irish version of some antiquity. Does anyone have access to the similar version by Ulster poet, Samuel Ferguson, in 1856?

This text is from Sam Henry Collection: Sam Henry's Songs of the People, edited by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann, 1990. This opens with a stanza from the broadside "Nelly's Constancy" which also has the third verse. The last two stanzas are from The Constant Lady/Near Woodstock broadside.

The Apron of Flowers- Sam Henry recovered it from Mrs. H. Dinsmore of Coleraine on December 26, 1936.

I loved a young man, I loved his well,
I loved him better than tongue can tell,
I loved him better than he loved me,
For he did not care for my companie.

There is an ale house in this town
Where he goes in, and there sits down;
And he takes a strange girl on his knee
And tells her what he once told me.

But I will tell you the reason why,
Because he had more gold than I
But the gold will melt and the silver fly,
And perhaps he'll be as poor as I.

But there's a flower grows in this place
And some does call it, the heart's ease;
And if I could but this flower find
I would ease my heart and my troubled mind.

Into the green meadows there I'll go
And watch the flowers as they grow
And every flower I will pull,
Until I have my apron full.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 05:49 PM

Hi,

I've put some of the UK versions. If you have a version not listed here please let me know or put it on this thread. To look at individual versions: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/blind-beetles--caroline-hughes-dors-1963-rec.aspx

I want to thank everyone who's posted versions, they are included on my site, Here's the list so far:

British & Other Versions 7. Died For Love

    Wild Rover (Rambling Boy)- Musical Com (Lon) 1765
    The Irish Boy- Elizabeth St. Clair (Edin) c. 1770
    A New Love Song- (Dub) Corcoran broadside c1774
    Lady's Lamentation- broadside (Manch) c.1775
    The Effects of Love- (Lon) broadside BL, c.1780
    The Distress'd Maid- (Lon) Madden broadside c.1785
    Cruel Father or Deceived Maid- (Lon) Madden c.1790
    Rambling Boy- (Limer) chapbook Groggin, 1790
    Rambling Boy- (Glas) chapbook, 1790
    The Maid's Tragedy- (Lon) St. Bride's PL c.1790
    Rambling Boy- (Glas) Robertson chapbook, 1799
    Answer to Rambling Boy- (Glas) chapbook, 1799
    Squire's Daughter- (Manch) Shelmerdine c.1800
    The Rambling Boy- (Lon) Pitts broadside c. 1806
    Faithful Shepherd- John Clare (Northamp) c.1818
    Queen of Hearts- (Lon) Pitts broadside c.1820
    Rambling Boy- (Manch) broadside, c.1830
    Queen of Hearts- (Birm) Wright broadside c.1833
    Brisk Young Sailor- (Birm) W. Pratt; c.1850
    The Darling Rose- (Glas) Poet's Box broadside 1851
    Brisk Young Sailor- (Manch) Bebbington c.1855
    The Irish Boy- (Glas) Poet's Box broadside, 1872
    Sweet William- Mrs. Hughes (Here) 1875 Leather
    Brisk Young Sailor- S. Lovell (Wales) Groome 1881
    Sailor Boy- Georgina Reid (Aber) c.1882 Duncan C
    There is an Alehouse- W.H Lunt (Liv) 1882 Kidson
    There's An Alehouse- H. Collins (Cam) 1886 Bull
    There is An Alehouse- H. Collins (Cam) 1886 Bull-2
    Brisk Young Miner- J. Parsons (Lew Down) 1888 B-G
    Love Is Hot- J. Parsons (Dev) 1888 Baring-Gould B
    True Love Once Courted Me- Halliday (York) 1891
    There Is An Alehouse- Holgate (Leeds) 1891 Kidson
    Rich Young Farmer- Lolley (Riding) 1891 Kidson C
    There Is A Bird- Lolley (E. Riding) 1891 Kidson D
    Brisk Young Miner- S. Fone (Dev) 1893 Baring-Gould
    Queen of Hearts- navvy worker (Dev) B.-Gould 1894
    Brisk Young Miner- Woodrich (Dev) 1896 Bar-Gould
    There is a House- (UK)1896 English Dialect Society
    Down in the Meadows- White (Som) 1903 Sharp
    Brisk Young Sailor- Emma Overd (Som) 1904 Sharp
    Brisk Young Sailor- W. Spearman (Som) 1904 Sharp
    Brisk Young Farmer- Bowes (York) 1904 V. Williams
    Bold Young Farmer- Denny (Essex) 1904 V. Williams
    In Jessie's City- from maid (Essex) 1905 Williams
    In Yorkshire Park- R. Barratt (Dor) 1905 Hammond
    Bold Young Sailor- Anderson (Lon) 1905 V. Williams
    There Was Three Worms- Bartlett (Dorset) 1905
    I Wish I Wish- Lucy White (Som) 1905 Sharp MS
    Apron Strings- John Collinson (West) 1905 Grainger
    Brave Young Sailor- Gulliver (Som) 1905 Hammond
    Died for Love- James Brown (Hamp) 1906 Gardiner
    There Is An Ale-House: Clark (Linc) 1906 Grainger
    Died for Love- Joseph Taylor (Linc) 1906 Grainger
    Brisk Young Sailor- Thomas Colcombe (Here) 1906
    The Alehouse- Henry Way (Dors) 1906 Hammond
    I Wish Ma Baby- Gouldthorpe (Linc) 1906 Grainger
    Gin my Bonnie Babe- G. Riddell (Aber) 1906 Greig E
    I Wish, I Wish- A. Barron (Aber) 1906 Greig F
    Farmer's Son- William Bailey (Som) 1906 Sharp
    There is an Alehouse- Asell (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner
    A Grief- Mrs. Goodyear (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner
    There is an Alehouse- Channon (Ham) 1907 Gardiner
    The Alehouse- Mrs. Duncan (Aber) 1907 Grieg K
    Apron Strings Low- T. Jones (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner
    Brisk Young Sailor- S Davidson (Aber) 1907 Greig I
    Apron String Low- Thomas Jones(Hamp) 1907 Guyer
    Brisk Young Sailor- Richards (Glou) 1907 Sharp
    Brisk Young Sailor- Ford/Mrs. Cranstone (Sus) 1908
    There is an Alehouse- Harrington (Hamp) 1908 Guyer
    Brisk Young Sailor- Smithers (Glou) 1908 Sharp MS
    In Halifax Town- David Lyall (Aber) c1908 Duncan
    Brisk Young Sailor- anon (Norfolk)1908 V. Williams
    I Wish, I Wish- H. Rae (Aber) 1908 Greig A
    Student Boy- Wallace (Aber) 1908 Duncan B
    Student Boy- Mrs. Walker (Aber) 1908 Duncan D
    I Wish, I wish- Mrs. Willox (Aber) c1908 Greig L
    There Is a Tavern- Annie Shirer (Aber)1908 Greig M
    Knutsford Town- W. Hill (Hamp) 1908 Gardiner
    Irish Boy- Mr. Thompson (Aber) 1908 Grieg
    Irish Boy- Annie Shirer (Aber) c. 1908 Greig J
    Brisk Young Drummer- Alexander(Hamp) 1908 Gard
    There Is An Ale House- Ash (Som) 1908 Sharp MS
    Brisk Young Sailor- Bayliff (Wes) 1909 Gilchrist
    Apron Strings- Mrs Collinson (Wes) 1909 Gilchrist
    Brisk Young Carter- W. Cole (Hamp) 1909 Gardiner
    Brisk Young Drummer- Alexander (Ham) 1909 Gard
    Apron Low- Charles Benfield (Oxf) 1909 Sharp MS
    Brisk Young Sailor- Bowker (Lanc) 1909 Gilchrist
    British Young Waterman- Hollingsworth (Essex) 1911
    I Wish I Wish- Jones (Heref) c.1910 V. Williams
    Brisk Young Soldier- Robert Feast (Ely) 1911 Sharp
    A Sailor Bold- Mrs. Joiner (Herts) 1914 Broadwood
    Apron Low- George Barrett (Wilt) 1916 A. Williams
    There is a Tavern- Mrs Lee (Wilt) 1916 A. Williams
    Betsy Williams- K. Williams (Glou) 1921 Sharp
    Down Jewry Lane- W. Gill (Glou) 1924 Collinson
    The Soldier's Love- Fred Cottenham (Kent) c.1925
    Isle of Cloy- Hill and Waspe (Suf) 1931 Moeran
    A Maiden Young and Fair- Airman song (UK) 1933
    I Wish I Wish- Mrs. Oliver (Kent) c.1936 Collinson
    Died for Love- Lionel Hall (Faeroe) c.1941 Palmer
    All You Maidens- Army ballad (UK) 1942 Henderson
    In Jersey City- Watts and Teesdale (Lon) 1943
    Miner Came from Work- kixgrix (Wales) c.1945
    The Sailor's Lament- Vern Williams (AU) 1947
    I Wish, I Wish- Cecilia Costello (Birm) 1951 REC
    Foolish Young Girl- Jean Elvin (Buchan) 1952
    Foolish Young Girl- Willie Mathieson (Aber) 1952
    Brave Young Sailor- A Davies (Glou) 1954 Collinson
    A Man Came Home- Sheila Stewart (Aber) 1954
    A Maiden's Prayer- Duffems (Shef) c. 1955
    A Student Boy- Norman Kennedy (Aber) 1958 REC
    Maiden's Prayer- Harry Cavanagh (AU) c. 1959
    There is an Alehouse- Tom Willett (Sus) 1960 REC
    Died for Love- Tom Willett (Sus) 1960 REC
    The Irish Boy-Joan Cron (Wigton) c.1962 Martin
    Blind Beetles- Caroline Hughes (Dors) 1963 REC
    Sailor Coming Home- Lower Mess Deck (UK) 1966
    Bold Fisherman Courted Me- L. Brazil (Glou) 1967
    A Miner Coming Home- Rugby song (UK) 1968
    A Sailor's Leave- Georgiansilver (UK) 1970s
    Maiden's Prayer- Doreen Cross (York) 1974
    Died for Love- Army song (UK) 1975 Kennedy
    Sailor Boy- Tony Ballinger (Glos) 1977 Davies
    Died for Love- Freda Black (Som) 2012 REC

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 04:28 PM

Hi,

This is a nice version of Foolish Young Girl which is fairly old- dating back to the early 1900s. It was corrected by an MS sent by Cathlin Macaulay at School of Scottish Studies. I've changed only two words of the MS much of it was the same. [MS has Ugie's Bank (4th stanza, I had Logie's Bank- and at the end MS has o' and I have altho')

Willie Mathieson was born in 1879 in Ellon, Aberdeenshire, and worked as a farmservant on various farms in Banffshire. An amateur folksong collector in his own right, he amassed an enormous corpus of songs over his lifetime, which is now deposited in manuscript form in the School of Scottish Studies. He died in 1958.

Summary - In this song of lost love the young girl mourns for Jamie and bewails her foolishness in falling in love with an Irish boy, though he spoke broad Scots when he courted her. He promised love, fidelity and a home, but now he is in a tavern courting someone else who has more money, whom he will leave when money and beauty runs out. She says that she will die for love and asks for a turtle dove to be placed on her grave.

The Foolish Young Girl- sung by Willie Mathieson of Ellon, Aberdeenshire. Recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1952. This variant includes stanzas from three different songs. Text proofed with MS provided by Cathlin Macaulay and Caroline Milligan of the School of Scottish Studies.

1. I love you Jamie, I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell,
I love you better than you love me,
My darlin' Jamie, ye're dear to me.

2. What a foolish young girl was I, I, I,
To fall in love with an Irish boy
An Irish boy tho' gin he be
He spake braw[1] Scotch when he courted me.

3. How oft my Jamie when in your arms[2]
You said I filled your heart with charms,
And when you gained my youthful heart
You said death only would us part.

4. How oft on Logie's banks we've met
In Strichen Toon we've wandered late;
How oft my Jamie I've heard you tell
It's in this house that we will dwell.

5. There is a tavern in this toon[3],
My lover gangs there and sets him doon,
He take this strange girlie on his knee
Because she's got more gold than me.
[But] her gold will waste and her beauty fade,
And very soon she'll be left like me.

6. The meeting's a pleasure but parting's a grief[4],
An inconstant lover is worse than a thief.
A thief he will rob you take all that you have,
An inconstant young man can you lay you in your grave.

7. You'll dig my grave baith long and wide,
. . .
And in the middle a turtle dove,
That you may know I died for love[5].

8. What a foolish [young] girl am I, I, I,
To fall in love with an Irish boy
An Irish boy tho' gin he be,
He spake braw Scotch when he courted me.

1. braid
2. stanzas 3 and 4 transcribed from MS
3. town/down
4. from Inconstant Lover
5. this stanza is incomplete and singer's melody and text are confused-- the last line was given awkwardly.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 07:00 PM

Hi,

From what I tell -- there are quite a few versions of 'A Maiden's Prayer' Roud 18828 and it continues to be sung in a similar form today. Most are missing the first stanza and as Steve said tend to be fragmentary. Gwilym Davies sent me two from the 70s and 80s.

Another early version is "The Soldier's Love" sung by Fred Cottenham of Kent whose father learned from a World War I serviceman so that would take it back to c. 1920.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:03 PM

Ugh.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 02:34 PM

I can't explain the slight verbal differences in the last verse but the version on the website is verbatim the version in Airman's Song Book. The only explanation I can think of is someone lifted it from the book and decided to alter something in case anyone pleaded breach of copyright. The Airman's Song Book was published in 1967. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 08:57 AM

Webmaster Kelvin Youngs has promptly and helpfully replied to my query with the disappointing news that "A Maiden Young and Fair" was "sent anon."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 09:25 PM

Hi,

Kennedy calls this an army song generally known as "Died for Love" which is a version of "In Jersey City" a song he says in turn is probably based on "Sheffield Park." He doesn't call "In Jersey City" the normal name "Butcher Boy." Kennedy adds that there are stanzas from "Tavern in the Town." Please excuse my notoriously bad typing.

"Died for Love." No informant named. Peter Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain and Ireland p. 381. (London: Cassell, New York: Schirmer, 1975). Text supplied S. Gardham. Roud 18828

1. A soldier young and fair was she,
Who courted in society,
This soldier was so bold and gay,
He led a little girl astray.

2. O when her apron-strings were low,
He courted her in rain and snow;
But when those string refused to meet,
He passed her by upon the street.

3. Her father came back late one night,
And found the house without a light;
He went upstairs to go to bed,
When a sudden thought entered his head.

4. He rushed into his daughter's room,
And found her hanging from a beam;
He took a knife and cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found.

5. I wish my baby had been born,
Before my troubles had begun,
So dig my grave and dig it deep,
And put white lilies at my feet.

6. They dug her grave and dig it deep,
They put white lilies at her feet.
And on her breast they laid a dove,
To signify she died of love.

7. Now all you soldiers bear in mind,
A true girl's love is hard to find,
But if you find one that is true,
Don't change an old love for the new.

Sheffield Park was originally independent and in 1820 stanzas of "Constant Lady" AKA "Near Woodstock" were added to the Pitts broadside. The same stanzas have been found added to versions of "Died for Love" but they may have come from Pitts' "Sheffield park" or from the 1686 "Constant Lady" broadside. Either way the stanzas don't appear this army version I call, "Maiden's Prayer' (not the Bob Wills song- same title).

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 06:05 PM

Richie & Steve, I've emailed the site's staff for further details.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 12:13 PM

Hi,

Here's one of two from Australia, notice that he took her liberty:

Informant: HARRY CAVANAGH
North Ryde NSW (near Sydney) Australia
July 2000.

Warren Fahey: Mr Cavanagh contacted me after I had made an appeal in the Australian Maritime Museum magazine 'Ahoy!' and sent me this song which he had been singing ever since he was a young lad in the Navy. He said he "came home from the club, after reading my article 'Where are all the maritime Songs?' and sat down at the kitchen table until he could recall all the words.

The Maiden's Prayer– maritime version

She was a maiden young and fair
And came from high society
He was a mallot brass and bold
Who took this girls virginity

Her father came home late one night
And found the house without a light
He went upstairs to his daughter's room
And found her hanging from a beam
He took his knife and cut her down
And on her breast this note he found

My love was for a sailor boy
Who sailed across the big blue sea
I often wrote and thought of him
He never wrote or thought of me

Oh Dad I cannot stand the pain
To bear this child without a name
So dig my grave and dig it deep
And place white lilies at my feet

They dug her grave and dug it deep
And placed white lilies at her feet
And on her breast they placed a dove
To show that she had died for love

Now all you maidens bear in mind
A sailor's love is hard to find
But when you find one good and true
Don't change the old one for the new.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 03:06 PM

This version seems to have been taken from Airman's Song Book, p126 by C Ward Jackson and Leighton Lucas. The title is the same and all of the rest apart from the last stanza which has a few verbal differences.

The note at the top says, 'Sung by 38 and other squadrons in India and elsewhere in the early 30s to the tune of 'In Jersey City'. All of this backs up my theory that the song was brought over from America by troops in WWI and is based on Butcher Boy.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 01:19 PM

Hi,

Lighter, no details are given: http://aircrewremembered.com/maiden-young-and-fair-author-unknown.html

Just the 1933 date author unknown

Sorry Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:36 AM

Hi Richie,
Where is that ref to American airmen 1933? Is there a full version? It could prove to be quite significant in the transmission of the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 08:08 PM

Hi,

Lighter-- Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky sang the words to "Butcher's Boy" with the melody of Careless Love. Careless love as a folk song was radically changed by WC Handy and other in the late 1800s and became a jazz standard.

These are the Appalachian lyrics my female singer sang in the early 1990s:

Careless Love

Love, oh love, my careless love,
Love, oh love, my careless love.
Love, oh love, oh careless love,
Oh look what careless love has done.

Once I wore my apron low,
Once I wore my apron low.
Once I wore my apron low,
I could not keep you from my door.

Now my apron strings won't pin,
Now my apron strings won't pin.
Now my apron strings won't pin,
You pass my door and won't come in.

I love my mama and papa, too,
I love my mama and papa, too.
I love my mama and papa, too,
I'd leave them just to go with you.

When I die, don't bury me deep;
When I die, don't bury me deep,
When I die, don't bury me deep,
Place a marble rock at my head and feet.

Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove,
Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove,
Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove,
For to show to the world I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:59 PM

Hi,

Steve the version posted by Lighter of Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II" is a version of Maiden's Prayer - a local Yorkshire ballad.

Now all you maidens sweet and kind,
Just bear in mind a soldier's love is hard to find.
So when you've found one good and true,
Don't change the old love for a new.

I've traced it to 1933 as sung by US Airmen.

THE MAIDEN'S PRAYER (Died for Love) Tune from Harold Sykes of Hessle. Collected in 1974 from Mrs. Doreen Cross of Hessle. East Riding of Yorkshire, England

1. A maiden young and fair was she,
Not born of high society,
A sailor young and bold was he,
The cause of all her misery.

2. A man came home from work one night,
And found his house without a light;
He went upstairs to go to bed,
When a sudden thought came into his head.

3. He went into his daughter's room,
And found her hanging from a beam;
He took a knife and cut her down,
And on her breast this note he found,

4. My love was for a sailor boy,
Who sailed across the deep blue sea,
I often wrote and thought of him,
But he never wrote or thought of me.

5. Oh, Lord, I wish my babe was born,
Then all my troubles would be gone,
For I could never bear the shame,
To have a babe without a name.

6. So dig my grave and dig it deep,
And place white lilies at my feet,
And at my head please lay a dove,
To signify I died for love.

7. So all ye maidens bear in mind,
A sailor's love is hard to find,
But if you find one that is true,
Don't change an old love for the new.

Anyone have more info?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:16 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the responses Lighter and Steve.

Rashie Moor variants are part of the Waly/Waly" songs and come from different broadsides including: "A New Love Song" "Maid's Complaint" "Picking Lilies" Here one of about a dozen I've looked at. Occassionally a stanza will float over- but not usually.

"The Unfortunate Swain" From: The Merry Songster. Being a collection of songs, Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London, [1770?], ESTC T39283, available at ECCO.

Down in a Meadow both fair and gay,
Plucking a Flowers the other day,
Plucking a Flower both red and blue,
I little thought what Love could do.

Where Love's planted there it grow,
It buds and blows much like any Rose;
And has so sweet and pleasant smell,
No Flower on Earth can it excell.

Must I be bound and she be free?
Must I love one that loves not me?
Why should I act such a childish Part
To love a Girl that will break my Heart.

There's thousand thousands in room,
My true love carries the highest Bloom,
Sure she is some chosen one,
I will have her, or I'll have none.

I spy'd a Ship sailing on the Deep,
She sail'd as deep as she could swim;
But not so deep as in Love I am,
I care not whether I sink or swim.

I set my Back against an oak,
I thought it had been a Tree;
But first it bent and then it broke,
So did my false Love to me.

I put my Hand into a Bush,
Thinking the sweetest Rose to find,
l prick'd my Finger to the Bone,
And left the sweetest Rose behind.

If Roses are such prickly Flowers,
They should be gather'd while they're green,
And he that loves an unkind Lover,
I'm sure he strives against the stream.

When my love is dead and at her rest,
I'll think of her whom I love best
I'll wrap her up in Linnen strong,
And think on her when she's dead and gone.   

I do have a few versions of Rashie Moor titled "Will ye Gang Love" that have more "Died in love" stanzas but they appear to be modern.

I believe the Grieg versions with "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" date mid-1800s at least. Having an "orange tree" in an ancient Scottish ballad is a bit bizarre.

That's why I live in Florida:) in the 80s and sunny

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:44 PM

Richie,
You keep asking about the Rashie Moor variants. This forms part of an equally complex family of laments with as many 17thc antecedents as the above family but there is very little overlap between the 2 families. The family includes such titles as:
Down in the Meadows
Waly Waly
Deep in Love
Fair and Tender Ladies
Love is Pleasing
Arthur's Seat
The Rashie Muir
The Water is Wide
Peggy Gordon
I'm often drunk and seldom sober.

Obviously the bulk of these is Scottish. I could send you some samples but I think you've enough on your plate with the current family of laments.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:39 PM

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:37 PM

The stanza 'I love my mamma and papa too' also comes from the English variants. It is on the Pitts Rambling Boy broadside.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:19 PM

Has anyone mentioned that the lines about aprons worn low appear later in the American "Careless Love"?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 02:21 PM

Richie,
In Christie's TBA there is a version of the scarce ballad 'The Chain of Love/As through the Groves' which has 2 stanzas from Rambling Boy.
I wish I were a little bird' and 'I wish i were a little fly'. These are very likely placed there by Christie as he was a noted mix and matcher.

Oh 100

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:56 PM

Richie,
Just glancing through American versions of Butcher Boy and although as you'd expect it rarely occurs there, it has attached itself to 3 versions I have. It occurs in a Missouri version from 1941 in Emrich's Folklore on the American Land, p526, and in a Massachusettes version in Thompson, p387, and in Gardner and Chickering, p117 from Michigan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:27 PM

Hi Richie
I have spent the last 3 days pondering this exact same question. The stanza does not appear in any of the many extant printed versions, but it occurs in roughly half of the many oral versions in the British Isles, with perhaps something of a northern bias. The earliest version I can find at the moment was collected by Kidson in the 1880s in North Yorkshire. I would say the likelihood is that there was an influential broadside version that contained this verse which hasn't turned up yet.

It is part of the collection of commonplaces we collectively refer to as 'impossibilities'. These come in 2 forms, both quite ancient; one being the somewhat humorous nonsense type such as 'Martin said to his man/Who's the fool now?' where the emphasis is on entertainment; and the other type is those that occur in dialogue laments. Often these come in the form of the maid asking 'When shall we be married?' and this is met with a whole catalogue of things like 'when fishes fly and the seas run dry' as responses. One type of fruit growing on another tree is quite common.

I will investigate further by looking at other laments.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 11:41 AM

At the moment, the earliest occurrence of the line I can find is in one of Kidson's Yorkshire versions, published in 1891.

The Bodleian Ballad cite appears to have no broadside printing of the "I Wish, I Wish" song that I can see.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:42 AM

> OK. My mind's in the gutter.

But it shows you're paying attention.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:33 PM

Hi,

OK. My mind's in the gutter.

The English Dialect Society in their Publications, Volume 41 1896, gave this report:

"When apples grow on orange trees." A variant of this common phrase concludes an old song which I do not remember to have seen in any printed collection. Here and there it is not unlike—though elsewhere manifestly inferior to— 'Waly, Waly, love be bonny,' in Percy's Reliques, and the Orpheus Caledonius.

i. There is a house in yonder town,
Where my love goes and sits him down;
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
O don't you think that's grief to me?

ii. 0 grief, O grief, I'll tell you why,
Because she's got more gold than I.
But her gold will waste, and her beauty blast;
Poor girl, she'll come like me at last.

iii. For when my apron-strings were low,
He follow'd me thro' frost and snow;
But now they are up to my chin,
He passes by and says nothing (sic)[1].

iv. 'I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain,
I wish I was a maid again;
A maid again I ne'er shall be,
Till an apple grows on an orange tree.'

My questions are where did "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" originate (I know there are various other analogies with different fruit- need to have the "A maid again" line) and when was it attached to this ballad?

(I know at this point she lost her liberty:)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:12 PM

The question may only apply to the one text, but it seems likely that the line meant (to the singer)that he gained his "freedom" to do (with her) as he liked.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:10 PM

Er.....what hidden meaning? Some of the 17thc pieces might have had some but by the end of the 18th everything left was pretty straightforward and simple. 'Deep in Love' has some symbolism but we haven't got there yet.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:51 PM

Thanks Steve,

You'd have thunk that Broadwood or Gilchrist in their many pages of commentary on the ballad in the JFSS or some later commentator would have pointed out all the 'hidden meaning' in the text.

The moral: Don't lose your liberty or you might get pregnant!!

or

in

the

US: Give me liberty or give me death

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:55 PM

All of the broadsides including the 2 18th century ones have the second line. 'and stole away my liberty'. Is there any need for further comment?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:34 PM

Thanks Lighter,

Here's another example:

A farmer's son he courted me,
Until he had gained his liberty,
He gain'd it of me with a free good will,
But [despite] all his faults I loved him still.

sung by William Bailey Cannington Somerset 1906

Any other opinions? Comments?

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM

I think that "liberty" is used in a general sense, as defined by Oxford, of

"The condition of being able to act or function without hindrance or restraint; faculty or power to do as one likes."

"Freedom" would be the more likely word today.

However...versions about babies and suicides surely *imply* that her loss of freedom comes from both her loss of virginity and her love for her seducer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM

I think that "liberty" is used in a general sense, as defined by Oxford, of

"The condition of being able to act or function without hindrance or restraint; faculty or power to do as one likes."

"Freedom" would be the more likely word today.

However...versions about babies and suicides surely *imply* that the loss of freedom comes from both her loss of virginity and her love for her seducer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

What has seemed obvious to me all along--I thought I'd get some feed back on:

liberty= virginity

A sailor bold he courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He stole it with a free good will,
He's got it now, and he'll keep it still.

I guess I'm confused because I've seen no one point this out- or, did I miss something?

Opinions please.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:23 PM

Ty Steve,

Here's a version Steve sent me from The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection- Volume 8- page 501 by Patrick N. Shuldham-Shaw, ‎Emily B. Lyle, published 2002, version C. This is a variant of Brisk Young Sailor with the Foolish Young Girl or, Irish Boy stanza.

Georgina (b. about 1868, d. 1958) was the daughter of John Reid (c. 1844 Elgin) and Elizabeth Murray (c. 1838 Aberdour) who taught Georgina her songs. The family (with seven children) were living at Cottage Ford, Federate, New Deer, Aberdeen in 1881. so I've dated this c. 1882. She later married Alexander Ironside b. 1864 did he not belong to any of the New Deer Ironsides (at least not for a couple of generations back) who was the son of Alexander Ironside and Mary Still. These Ironsides were from Fyvie.

The Sailor Boy- sung by Miss Georgina Reid (b. 1868) of Collyford, New Deer. Her married name was Mrs. Alexander Ironside and she lived at Woodside, Carmousie, Turiff. Georgina learned her songs from her parents.

1. Oh what a foolish young girl was I,
To lay my love on a sailor boy
A sailor boy although that he be,
He spoke brood Scotch when he courted me.

2. My love he wears a smiling face
And on his jacket he wears gold lace
he thinks himself of a higher degree
but oh, if he knew it, it's a grief to me

3. It's a grief to me and I'll tell you why,
Because she has more gold than I,
But her gold will fade and her silver decay,
She'll be left a poor girl as well as I.

4. My love he goes to yonder town,
In yonder inn it's him you'll see,
He takes another girl on his knee,
And tells he what he's told to me.

5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born
And placed on some kind nurse's knee.
And I myself in the old churchyard
With the green grass growing over me.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM

Sailor/farmer adapted to 'Miner' in the West Country would be quite natural. Cornwall was noted for its tin mines and it only takes one influential version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:24 PM

Hi,

I also need versions of "Over Yonder's Hill" as sung by Freda Black or Amy Birch. I do have the version from Amy's daughter but Jean learned it from another source.

Baring-Gould studied this ballad and all his versions begin "Brisk Young Miner." So far all of the UK versions I've seen do not have this title. Any thoughts as to how this could be. I've got three versions from his leading informants David Parsons, Same Fone, and John Woodrich. As author of "Book of Werewolves" Baring-Gould could have added more spice but his re-write is a bit tame (no fangs); here's his A version:

A. The Brisk Young Miner- sung by John Woodrich probably Sept., 1896 or early as 1889. Woodrich was a blacksmith from Wollacot Moor, Thrushleton [sic], Devon.

1. A brisk young miner courted me
He stole away my liberty,
My liberty with free good will.
For all his faults I love him still.

2. There is a tavern in our town,
Where my false lover will sit him down,
Another maiden is on his knee
He never, never, now thinks on me.

3. A grief to me, I'll tell you why,
She has no more of show than I.
The show will waste, & beauty blast,
And poor she'll be as me at last

4. Once I could wear my apron low
He followed me through frost & snow.
But now 'tis risen to touch my chin,
My love passed by, but said nothing.

5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born
Sat smiling on its daddy's arm,
And I myself - cut short my span,
I would be free from that young man.

6. O dig my grave both wide & deep,
Put tombstones at my head & feet
And carve there on a turtledove,
To signify that I died of love.

In stanza two he "Americanized it" a bit showing his knowledge of published versions. Aside from that only 5 and 6 should touches of tampering, the most blatant being 5:

And I myself - cut short my span,
I would be free from that young man.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:05 PM

Hi,

Need some help with two versions from Vaughan Williams. Both are titled "There Is An Alehouse" one is from 1912 sung by an unknown gypsy from Herefordshire and the other is sung by Mrs. Dann in 1907. Both have music although hard to read ;)

I do have four versions with music from Vaughan Williams, here's one:

A Brisk Young Farmer- sung by Thomas Bowes of Westerdale, Yorkshire on 23 July, 1904. Usual stanzas from "Bold Young Farmer" both collected by Vaughan Williams.

A brisk young farmer courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He stole my heart with my free good will,
I must confess I love him still.

There is an inn, in this same town,
Where my love goes and sits him down,
And takes another girl on his knee,
He tells her what he doesn't tell me.

Its grief to me, I'll tell you for why,
Because she has more gold than I,
But in needy time her gold shall fly,
And she shall be as poor as I.

When first I wore my apron low,
My love followed me thro' frost and snow,
But now my apron's up to my chin,
My love passes by and he says nothing.

There is a bird on yonder tree,
They say it's blind and cannot see;
I wish it had been the same with me,
Before I joined his company.

Go dig my grave both long, wide and deep,
Place a marble stone at my head and feet,
And in the middle a turtle dove,
To show the wide world I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 11:22 AM

Richie,
When MacColl wrote those notes he probably hadn't a decent grasp of the broadside traditon. When he uses the title 'Tavern in the Town' I would guess he's actually referring to 'Brisk Young Sailor' where the verse occurs. This is quite reasonable for someone mostly acquainted with oral versions. The 1880s/1891 student song is properly titled 'There is a tavern in the Town' from the first line.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 08:43 PM

Hi,

I just looked at "Three Worms." It's like the modern version (Pitts) of Sheffield Park (the older versions don't have the stanzas from Qxfordshire Tragedy) on steroids!!! Of course it's mixed with Brisk Young Sailor too.

In stanza 10 she gets revenge- too funny!!!

10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold
I met her false lover, and him I told:
"Come and walk after your heart's delight;
She will walk with you both day and night!

Happy haunting!

Richie

THERE WAS THREE WORMS ON YONDER HILL. [A BRISK YOUNG SAILOR.]
SUNG BY MR. BARTLETT,
Noted by the late H. E. D. Hammond. AT WIMBORNE, DORSET, IN 1905.

1. There was three worms on yonder hill,
They neither could not hear nor see;
I wish I'd been but one of them
When first I gained my liberty.
[Repeat last two lines.]

2 Then a brisk young lad came a-courting me,
He stole away my liberty;
He stole it away with a free goodwill,
He've a-got it now, and he'll keep it still.

3 Oh, for once I wore my apron-strings low
My love followed me through frost and snow,
But now they're almost up to my chin
My love pass by and say nothing.

4 Now there is an ale-house in this town,
Where my false love go and sit himself down
And takes strange girls all on his knee-
And don't you think that's a grief to me ?
[Or Because they have more gold than me.]

5 So gold will waste and beauty pass
And she will come like me at last.
That mortal man when he served me so
When I was down where the daisies grow.

6 Now there is a flower, I heard them say,
Would ease my heart both night and day.
I wish to God that flower I could find
That would ease my heart and my troubling mind.

7 Then out in the mead the poor girl run
To call those flowers fast as they sprung;
'Twas some she picked, some she pulled,
Till at length she gained her apron full.

8 On those sweet flowers she made her bed,
A stony pillow for her head;
Then down she lay and never spoke,
And now her tender heart is broke.

9 Now she is dead and her corpse is cold
I met her false-love, and him I told
"A bad misfortune I come to tell."
"I'm glad," said he, "she have done so well."

10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold
I met her false lover, and him I told:
"Come and walk after your heart's delight;
She will walk with you both day and night!

11 So dig her a grave long, wide and deep,
And strow it over with flowers sweet;
Lay on her breast a turtle-dove,
That folks may see that she died for love.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 08:00 PM

I thought it was "blind bird"= "three worms" but MacColl's comment floored me- as if it was a common motive. This is where I thought it came from- a standard stanza:

There is a bird on yonder tree,
They say it's blind and cannot see;
I wish it had been the same with me
Before I joined his company.

MacColl gave an analysis which make some sense, even tho I don't agree- it's basically:

------
55. DIED FOR LOVE. There is a large group of love-lamentations which have enough verses in common to be called 'a family.' They are all based upon a man's infidelity to his avowed lover.

1. Deep in Love- "Must I go Bound"
2. Butcher Boy
3. Love has brought me to Despair-- "blind worm" motive
4. Waly waly
5. Tavern in the town "Let him go, let him tarry" The alehouse verse is vital to this type.
6. Careless Love
7. Died for love
--------

He doesn't even mention Sheffield Park or Brisk Young Sailor. In my opinion, altho I'm just learning these ballads/song, only Tavern (which is a 1891 composition and not a folk song) and Butcher Boy are closely related.

What do you think?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:43 PM

Hi,

I should have posted the three worms ;)

There was three worms on yonder hill,
They neither could not hear nor see;
I wish I'd been but one of them
When first I gained my liberty. [from Dorset 1905]

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM

Hi,

TY Steve, MacColl called it the "blind worm" motive, if that helps.

9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation;

9. There is a flower as I've heard say,
I wish I could that flower find,
It would ease my heart,
And cure my mind.

which is taken from Oxfordshire Tragedy where the flower is a heart-ease if I remember correctly.

In Johnson's 1611 version there's and herb called Dead-Man's Thumb but no worms!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 06:09 PM

It seems to first appear as a stanza in the common broadside 'Brisk Young Sailor' text which is where all of the other stanzas in Caroline's text can be found. It may have been inspired by the 9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 05:30 PM

Hi,

Does anyone have any details (date notes location etc) about this version collected by MacColl:

B. [untitled] Caroline Hughes

1 O for that dear girl, she roamed those meadows,
She were picking these flowers by one, two or three;
She picked, she plucked until she gained
Until she gathered her apron full.

2 O, when I were single, I wear my apron strings long;
My love passed me by and say nothing;
But now my belly it's up to my chin,
My love he pass by and frowns on me.

3 A grief, a grief, I'll tell you for why:
Because that girl she's got more gold than me;
Well, gold shall glitter, her beauty will fade,
That's why it puts back a poor girl like me.

4 On yonders hill, there stands an alehouse
Where my true love goes and sets himself down,
He takes another strange girl on his knee
And kisses her and frowns on me.

5 A grief, a grief, I'll tell you for why:
Because that girl she's got more gold than me;
Well, gold shall glitter, her beauty will fade,
That's why she'll become a poor girl like me.

6 On yonders hill there's blind beetles crawl,
As blind as blind could be
I wish to God that I'd been one of those
Before I gained my love's company.

I'm interested in source of "Three worms" and in this "blind beetles crawl" Anyone?

Richie