Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 09:20 AM

Hyphenation of "to-day" and "to-morrow" (and "to-night")used to be normal practice as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 17 - 10:07 PM

Hi,

Interesting point- I copied it (didn't insert sic) and wondered about that too. I also noticed that Baring Gould's punctuation "to-day" and "to-morrow" appear exactly the same in broadside versions and if I remember correctly Baring Gould himself doesn't not punctuate these words this way. We know he edited and rewrote and we know he had a print copy so. . .

I've started putting UK versions on my site, I want to thank Steve for sending me many of the copies I have put on so far.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 04 Jan 17 - 09:23 AM

Pedant mode on.

Richie quoted "If my love leave [sic] me, what shall I do?", presumably inserting the "sic" because it's "leave" rather than "leaves".

There is nothing wrong with "leave" in that context, but it is subjunctive, a verb mood which is slowly dying out in English. We can speculate about which the navvy from whom B-G collected that version actually sang.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 11:09 PM

Hi,

Maybe this is common knowledge: In the last stanza of Wright broadside "Queen of Hearts" line 2 appears these words, "On board the ship called the Royal victory." "Royal victory" is likely a corruption since the ship in the other broadsides is referred to as the "Victory" which is likely the HMS Victory, a 104-gun first-rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy, ordered in 1758, laid down in 1759 and launched in 1765. She is best known as Lord Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.

I did find evidence of a ship called "Royal Victory" in 1692 however it seems that HMS Victory is the ship.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:19 PM

I find his handwriting hard to read at the best of times. It could equally be 1894 in the manuscript. It's also possible he couldn't read his own handwriting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:18 PM

OK,

So it's the same person, the date was given as 1897 in a different edition reprinting the song but that date was wrong. So the date is 1894.

Songs of the West, by S. Baring Gould, H Fleetwood Sheppard, and F.W. Bussell, new and revised edition (Methuen, n.d. [1905], pp. 232-233; with music).

                   THE QUEEN OF HEARTS

    1. To the Queen of Hearts he's the Ace of sorrow,
       He's here to-day, he's gone to-morrow;
       Young men are plenty but sweet-hearts few,
       If my love leave [sic] me, what shall I do?

    2. When my love comes in I gaze not around,
       When my love goes out, I fall in a swound;
       To meet is pleasure, to part is sorrow,
       He is here to-day, he is gone to-morrow.

    3. Had I the store in yonder mountain,
       Where gold and silver is had for counting,
       I could not count, for the thought of thee,
       My eyes so full that I could not see.

    4. I love my father, I love my mother,
       I love my sister, I love my brother;
       I love my friends, my relations too,
       But I'll leave them all for the love of you.

    5. My father left me both house and land,
       And servants many at my command;
       At my commandment they ne'er shall be,
       I'll forsake them all for to follow thee.

    6. An Ace of sorrow to the Queen of Hearts,
       O how my bosom bleeds and smarts;
       Young men are plenty, but sweet-hearts few,
       If my love leave me what shall I do?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:09 PM

Ty Steve,

Couldn't read his handwriting:) If it's an error than how do you explain his notes in the 1905 published version:

Notes:

Sung by a workman on the Borrow-Tor reservoir, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894. It has been printed on Broadside by Batchelar, B.M. in vol. vi p110. This version begins--

'O my poor heart, my poor heart is breaking,
For a false young man, or I am mistaking:
He is gone to Ireland, for a long time to tarry,
Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry.

The ballad has a flavour of of the period of Charles II.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM

Richie,
It's NAVVY, i.e., a workman on a railway or reservoir in this case. 1894 is possibly an error.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM

Hi Steve,

O hone! O hone! you're right!!! TYVM!

Corrected:

"The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833

1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking
For a false young man or I am mistaken
He is gone to Ireland long time to tary,
Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow,
He is here today and gone to-morrow,
Young men are plenty sweethearts few
But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him,
When he goes out my poor heart goes with him,
To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow,
He is here to-day and gone to-morow.

4. I wish I was on yonder mountain
Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing
I could not count it for thinking on him
He is not kind to me, what makes me love him?

5. I love my father and likewise my mother,
I love my sister and also my brother
I love my friends and relations too,
I will forsake them all, and follow you.

6. My father will give me both houses and land
If I'll consent to be at his command,
At his command I never will be,
I will forsake them all, and go with thee.

7. O Billy O Billy I love thee well,
I love you better than tongue can tell,
I love thee dearly, and dare not show it,
You do the same, and no one shall know it.

8. But when her father came to hear,
That he was a courting his daughter dear,
He had him press'd and sent to sea,
To keep him from her sweet company.

9. He had not been there passing years three,
On board the ship called the Royal victory
It was his misfortune there for to fall
And killed he was by a cannon ball.

Baring Gould's version is attributed to two different sources- not exactly sure which one is right;

1) In his notebook it's "sung by a nanny on a train journey from Tavistock to Yelverton" dated 1897.

2) It was printed in 1905 in the new and revised (i.e. 3rd) edition of Songs of the West (now out of print). It is reprinted here by courtesy of Messrs. Curwen and Sons Ltd. According to a note it was sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 03:29 PM

Richie,
On the slip The Maid's Tragedy/The Irish Boy's Lamentation(which latter is obviously meant to be the continuation or answer) the chorus is 'O hone! O hone!' in both.

Also you have omitted a stanza (6) in the Wright printing of QoH.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM

Hi,

The other Queen of Hearts broadside about 12 years later has two changes, one might be important- the ship is now called the "Royal Victory" (instead of "Victory') and a ship by that name was operating in the late 1600s. If anyone know what ship that could be please post as it might help date the original.

"The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833

1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking
For a false young man or I am mistaken
He is gone to Ireland long time to tary,
Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow,
He is here today and gone to-morrow,
Young men are plenty sweethearts few
But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him,
When he goes out my poor heart goes with him,
To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow,
He is here to-day and gone to-morow.

4. I wish I was on yonder mountain
Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing
I could not count it for thinking on him
He is not kind to me, what makes me love him?

5. I love my father I love my mother,
I love my sister and likewise my brother
I love my friends and relations too,
I will forsake them all and follow you

6. O Billy O Billy I love thee well,
I love you better than tongue can tell
I love thee dearly, and dare not show it
You do the same, and no one shall know it

7. But when her father came to hear,
That he was a courting his daughter dear,
He had him press'd and sent to sea,
To keep him from her sweet company.

8. He had not been there passing years three,
On board the ship called the Royal victory
It was his misfortune there for to fall
And killed he was by a cannon ball.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 01:00 PM

Hi,

Good one Lighter- there's an obscure broadside called Irish Boy's Lamentation the also has "O Home, O home" but that's the reason it's obscure.

Here's one and the earliest extant broadside of "The Queen of Hearts" by Pitts (Printer) Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street, 7 Dials, London. The broadside is identified by the 2nd stanza. It's ending (stanzas 7 and 8) is similar to, or a rewrite of B, The Cruel Father, where her lover is sent to sea and killed by a cannonball. Some of the intermediate stanzas as pointed out by Steve are found in Elizabeth St. Clair's "Irish Boy."


The Queen of Hearts- broadside by Pitts (Printer) of 7 Dials, London about 1820.

1. O my poor heart my poor heart is breaking
For a false young man I'm quite mistaken
He is gone to Ireland long time to tarry,
Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow,
He is here today and gone tomorrow
Young men are plenty sweethearts few
But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in I gaze all around him
When he goes out my poor heart goes with him
To meet is a pleasure to part is a sorrow,
He is here today and gone tomorrow.

4. I wish I was upon yonder mountain
Where gold and silver I could have for counting
I could not count it for thinking upon him
He is nothing to me what makes me love him

5. I love my father I love my mother,
I love my sister and likewise my brother
I love my friends and relations too,
I will forsake them all and follow you

6. O Billy O Billy I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell
I love you dearly and dare not show it
You do the same and no one shall know it

7. But when her father came to hear
That he was courting his daughter dear
He had him pressed and sent to sea
To keep him from her sweet company

8. He had not been there years passing three
On board the ship called the Victory
It was his misfortune there for to fall
And killed he was by cannon ball.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM

Whatever may be printed, "O home, O home!" should be "Ochone! Ochone!" a Gaelic expression of grief or dismay.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 09:27 AM

Hi,

here's a variant of Foolish Girl/Irish Boy with a chorus. Anyone know where the Chorus comes from? After consider I think "The Queen of Hearts" should be included as a variant. Anyone agree?

The Maid's Tragedy- broadside dated c1790, from St. Bride's Printing Library, London.

What a foolish girl was I,
to fall in love with an Irish boy?
What tho' he's false and wicked to me
The though of my love will quite undo me.

CHORUS: O home! O home! my heart's uneasy
       In parting with my dearest honey,
       He's gone to Ireland and long will tarry
       Some other girl I fear he'll marry

My love knows I can wash an wring
My love knows I can card and spin
All for to keep his clothing fine
Why did he go and leave me behind.

As I was walking up Fenchurch Street,
My apron spread like a sheet,
My belly up to my chin,
My love passed by and said nothing.

I'd lov'd you better than father or mother
I'd lov'd you better than sister or brother
I'd lov'd you better than all my kin
If you was without, love, I wou'd let you in.

As I was walking up Francis-Street,
My true love with a letter I chanced to meet,
And in this letter these lines was written,
I am often seen but soon forgotten[1].

Her father coming home late at night,
Calling for his heart's delight
He ran upstairs the door he broke,
And found her hanging by a rope.

In her bosom a note he found,
For an Irish boy my heart was bound,
To all young maids let his a warning be,
Lest young men should prove your misery.

Now dig my grave both wide and deep,
With a marble stone to cover it,
In the middle thereof a turtle-dove,
to shew the world I dy'd for love.

1. Also, "Seldom seen and soon forgotten."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 01 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM

Ty for the kind words Lighter- and the text you posted!!

I've started writing and already have probably 12 pages and I haven't really started.

If anyone wants to read some of it - please do: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-sheffield-park-butcher-boy.aspx

Steve Gardham has been a great help and my B version is filled out but the rest are in the embryonic stage- I'm sure some of it will change.

Any other versions are welcome, happy new year!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM

Hi, Richie & Steve, and others.

I've been away from my PC for a week (bracing experience in itself, by the way).

Yes, Steve, I agree that the Henderson song has a vaudeville ring, including the tune. Perhaps it is no older than the 1930s. That might explain why it was apparently especially popular ca1940.

Thanks, Richie, for your heroic work on this song (and on others).

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 31 Dec 16 - 02:14 PM

TY Steve for that analysis.

Her are the notes from Traditional Music from the Shetland Isles:

Jeannie learned this song from other girls at cairdings and at the gutting work on the fishing stations. It was well known in Aberdeenshire with a variety of titles such as I wish, I wish, The Student Boy, Died for Love, etc.. In the USA it appeared on Broadsheets with the title The Butcher Boy.

The Foolish Young Girl- sung by Jeannie Hutchison- SA1974.13.3
Listen: http://www.sssa.llc.ed.ac.uk/whalsay/2014/12/16/foolish-young-girl-the-2/

Oh what a foolish girl was I
To fall in love with a sailor boy;
A sailor lad although he may be,
He spak the braid Scots when he courted me.

He courted me through frost an' snaw
At when my apron strings did blow;
But noo that they can scarcely tie
He looks at me and passes by.

But I wish, I wish my babe was born
An' sat upon my nurse's knee;
I wish that I were dead and gone
An' the green, green grass growin' over me.

I've wished, I've wished, I've wished in vain;
I've wished to become a fair maid again.
A maid again I never will be
Till an orange grows on an apple tree.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 06:10 PM

Hi Richie, titles and first stanzas are pretty useless in identifying these sort of songs. Nothing should be assumed without looking at the full text of any version.

Here's my analysis of the St. Clair piece:
1. lines 1 & 2. The Irish Boy (broadside, GPB)
lines 3 & 4 probably St Clair.

2.Possibly St Clair.

3. lines 1 & 2 vaguely Brisk Young Sailor ideas.
lines 3 & 4 Rambling Boy (st6 Robertson)

4. From a well-known Valentine.

5. Roud 3195 Queen of Hearts

6. Ibid.

7. St4 in The Maid's Tragedy

8. Queen of Hearts

9. Rambling Boy

10 lines 1 & 2, Rambling Boy
lines 3 & 4 William McGonegal!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:50 PM

Hi,

Great version, it's of the Foolish Young Girl branch of which I have 5 or 6 versions- identified by the first stanza and known also as 'Irish Boy' as I posted earlier. They all have different floating verses but many are the same. Above is a link to Willie Mathieson's version online- which I can't understand.

The date is important too since that takes it back another 100 years or so-

TY Steve,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 04:09 PM

I do have The Mansfield Manuscript as a PDF and looked at that one starting on p.4 before I saw that Steve had quoted it. It is pretty incoherent. The change from first person to third person in this sort of song isn't so unusual, but it's disconcerting to have several verses in the girl's voice and then an account of her suicide.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 02:52 PM

Okay this is the Elizabeth St. Clair piece which may or may not have been redacted by her c1770 in Edinburgh. She was a member of Edinburgh high society and was a friend of Mrs. Cockburn. The ms also contains a few Child ballads some known to Child and some not.

The Irish Boy

O what a foolish girl was I
To fall in love with an Irish Boy
Who could not speak good English to me
Which was the thing that did undo me.

My mother chide me for my kindness
She often said I was led in blindness
But she may go home and frown in leisure
For a sight of my love is all my pleasure.

You go by my door as you do not know me
You seem to me as you did not love me
I loved you once and I durst not show it
Do you the same and let no man know it.

The rose it is red and the violet's blue
The honey's sweet love and so art thou
Thou art mine love and I am thine
I drew thee to be my Valentine.

O meeting's pleasure but parting's sorrow
Have the night and away tomorrow
But as you leave me so you'll find me
I cannot live one hour behind thee.

O if I were on yon high mountain
Had gold and money for the counting
I could not count it for thinking on thee
Have pity on me my dear honey.

Well did he know I could bake and brew
Well did he know I could shape and sew
Could wash his linnens and dress them fine
But now he's gone and left me behind.

My love's away and he's long of coming
My heart is broken with thinking on him
He's over seas and there he's carried
Another woman I fear he's married.

Home her father dear came then
Asking for his daughter Jean
Up stairs he ran and the door he broke
He found her hanging on a rope.

Two long hours after she was dead
These lines were found beneath her hand
This is the way I must end my life
Cause my lodger won't make me his wife.

Certainly a curious hotch-potch. Was she playing around with bits and pieces she knew and adding in her own ideas? I'll leave you for now to sort out where the bits and pieces come from. At least 7 of the 10 come from the general corpus of laments.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM

Hi Steve,

I will start using the Roud numbers. I'm not sure about Beam of Oak, need a definition of which ballads fall there- see post above- but I'm willing to work with the Roud numbers in place.

I do not have Ronnie Clark's recent edition of The Mansfield Manuscript. Please email copy or post here.

I'm still trying to organize the foundation which is why I need as many of the older broadsides you have. I also need Grieg/Duncan.

There are a number of ballads which will be under the Died for Love umbrella and a number of them will be separate and listed as appendices. Right now I have:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Roud 273; Laws K12)

7B. Love Has Brought Me To Despair [Roud?] This is not or should not be part of Roud 60 since it's based on a different broadside.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM

Richie,
Have you got a copy of Ronnie Clark's recent edition of The Mansfield Manuscript? I am reluctant to post what is there at p4 (c1770) as it might tip you over the edge.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM

Hi Richie,
Back now.
It will be a help to other researchers and me if you use the Roud numbers each time you post something you need info on.

I also wonder if, now the separate songs have been identified, we really should have separate threads. Perhaps it's a bit late for that.

I thought I had sent you info on 'The Queen of Hearts' printed by Wright of Birmingham which has the beginning of a ballad called Bonnie Blue'eyed Lass' derived from a Roxburghe Ballad and the last 6 stanzas of 18830. (See Bodl. Harding B28 (120).

Others I can add to your list are 'Beam of Oak' sung by LaRena Clark, Fowke, p62.
'The Irish Boy' in FSJ31 a fragment at p28.
More to follow.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 10:28 PM

Hi Steve,

I emailed you some of the broadsides I don't have that I need- not sure if you have them. I need the Grieg-Duncan- not sure if Will Ye Gang, Love/Rashy Muir will be part or a related ballad. Please send any related broadsides that are not available online- TY

As far as Rambling Boy- I have the Robertson chapbook 1799 with suicide and the Pitts c. 1820 (random stanzas, no suicide)

All the Cruel Father versions have the suicide but they are a different ballad story:

B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817.
   e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virgiia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection.
   h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   k. "Black Birds." Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938
   l. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   m. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC, 1966.

Only two of the traditional versions I've found so far tell the ballad story of B.

When are you back at your computer?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:07 PM

Hi Richie,
Yes, I was responsible for the renumbering in the Roud Index regarding this family of laments, not Roger.
The simplest approach here is to follow the autonomous laments and ignore initially the overlaps. The evolution and probable sources, so much simpler with narrative pieces, are here an absolute minefield as they cross over so often. Also much of what has been printed previously is likely to be wrong as it doesn't follow this approach, so only close study of each version will bring anything like an accurate classification.

FWIW I think any English/Irish versions of Butcher Boy have come back from your side of the pond.

Using the list I sent you of the separate Master Titles and Roud Numbers it should be easy enough to place any given version that is not a fragment into one of these. Fragments in the case of these laments are always going to be difficult to place and you may need to use geographical info or tunes to place them. if you are struggling to place a particular text come back to me and I will advise.

You seem particularly interested in Rambling Boy so I'll look at that first. If I remember correctly it is the earliest source of the 3 suicide stanzas which were taken into 'Butcher Boy' and from there into 'Died For Love'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 01:33 PM

TY for the versions,

"Foolish Young Girl" begins as follows, this version sung by Jean Elvin, of Buchan:

A foolish young girl was I, was I,
To lend my love to a farmer's boy;
A farmer's boy although he be,
He spoke broad Scotch when he courted me.

The line "O what a foolish girl was I," is found in many versions of the Butcher Boy- but not as the opening stanza- or in that form. I have now six versions, 2 of which are broadsides and older. Another title for "Foolish Young Girl" is "Irish Boy" which again is used for other songs "Wee Irish Boy" is somewhat similar but a different song.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:17 AM

The Butcher Boy

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:10 AM

Found this and thought it might be enlightening:-

The Butcher Boy

[ Roud 409 ; Laws P24 ; G/D 6:1169 , 6:1171 ; Ballad Index LP24 ; trad.]

Sarah Makem sang The Butcher Boy in two recordings made by Diane Hamilton in 1956. They were included in 2012 on her Musical Traditions anthology As I Roved Out. Another recording made by Paul Carter and Sean O'Boyle in 1967 was published in 2012 on her Topic anthology The Heart Is True (The Voice of the People Series Volume 24). Rod Stradling commented in the first album's booklet:

The Butcher's Boy appears to be derived from at least three separate British broadsides, namely Sheffield Park, The Squire's Daughter (also known as The Cruel Father or The Deceived Maid) and A Brisk Young Sailor, which is also sometimes called There Is an Alehouse in Yonder Town. It's a very well-known ballad, with 275 Round instances, 80 of which are sound recordings, but almost all are from the USA. Ireland has only one other named singer, Andy Cash, and England has only eight entries.

Frank Proffitt sang this song as Morning Fair on his 1962 Folk-Legacy album Traditional Songs and Ballads of Appalachia. It was also released in 1966 as the Topic album North Carolina Songs and Ballads. The booklet commented:

Not often found in this form, this ballad is widely popular in America as The Butcher Boy, perhaps because it was widely printed in the early songsters. Brown points out that it appeared as a stall ballad in both Boston and New York. Frank learned his splendid variant from his aunt, Nancy Prather. The ballad is usually found with the following as the final couplet:

And on my breast place a turtle dove
To show the world that I died for love.

Queen Caroline Hughes sang The Butcher Boy in a recording made by Peter Kennedy in her caravan near Blandford, Dorset, in April 1968. It was published in 2012 on her CD of the Topic anthology I'm a Romany Rai (The Voice of the People Series Volume 22).

Lyrics
Sarah Makem sings The Butcher Boy
In London city where I did dwell
A butcher boy, I loved right well
He courted me, and me heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was a maid again
A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be
'Til cherries grow on an apple tree.

I wish my baby it way born
And smiling on its daddy's knee
And I poor girl to be dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

She went upstairs to make her bed
And calling up her mother said
"Get me a chair 'til I sit down
A pen and ink 'til I write down."

At every word she dropped a tear
And every line cried, "Willie dear.
Oh, what a foolish girl was I
To be led astray by a butcher boy."

He went upstairs and the door he broke,
He found her hanging from a rope.
He took his knife and he cut her down
And in her pocket, these lines were found.

Dig my grave wide large and deep
Put a marble stone at my head and feet
And in the middle, a turtle dove,
That the world may see I died for love.

Frank Proffitt sings Morning Fair
As I woke up one morning fair
To take a walk all in the air,
I thought I heard my true love say,
"Oh turn and come my way.

"You told me tales, you told me lies,
You courted a girl worth more than I.
But gold will fade and silver will fly,
My love for you will never die.

"Oh, tell me, Willie, oh tell me please,
Do you take her upon your knees
And hug and kiss her all so free
And tell her things you won't tell me?

"Is it because that I am pool
That you turn me far from your door
To wander out in a cruel dark world
Because you love a rich man's girl?"

"She gave me cake, she gave me wine,
I rode out in her carriage fine;
She set herself upon my knee
And begged and kissed me all so free.

"Her father gives to me his land
And also of his daughter's hand;
To give it up, a fool I'd be,
To trade it all for the love of thee."

She went upstairs, up to her bed;
A aching was all in her head;
A rope she tied around the sill;
They found her hanging, cold and still.

There in her bosom was this note,
All with her pen these words she wrote:
"Heap up my grave so very high
So Willie can see as he rides by."

Queen Caroline Hughes sings The Butcher Boy
Oh, at London town where I did dwell,
Oh, the butcher boy I loved so deep.
He courted me my life away
And that same town where I could not stay.

"Oh, mother dear, you do not know
What pains and sorrows that I've had to bear.
You get me a chair and I'll set down
And pen and ink I will write it down."

Now, her father come home late one night.
He found his house without of light.
Upstairs he goes in his daughter's room,
Found her hanging by her beside by a rope.

Oh, with a knife he cut her down
And in her left breast that note were found.
Oh, what a silly girl she were
To hang herself for a butcher boy.

"Now, mother dear, you order my grave,
You order it neat and very long.
You'll put white lilies now head and foot,
And in the middle you placed a dove
To show this wide world I died for love."

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:40 AM

Sarah Makem sang the "Oh, what a foolish girl was I" line in the fifth verse of "The Butcher Boy" as recorded by Diane Hamilton in 1956 and released on her Musical Traditions anthology "As I Roved Out":

In London city where I did dwell
A butcher boy, I loved right well
He courted me, and me heart away
And then with me, he would not stay.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain
I wish I was a maid again
A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be
'Til cherries grow on an apple tree.

I wish my baby it way born
And smiling on its daddy's knee
And I poor girl to be dead and gone
And the long green grass growing over me.

She went upstairs to make her bed
And calling up her mother said
"Get me a chair 'til I sit down
A pen and ink 'til I write down."

At every word she dropped a tear
And every line cried, "Willie dear.
Oh, what a foolish girl was I
To be led astray by a butcher boy."

He went upstairs and the door he broke,
He found her hanging from a rope.
He took his knife and he cut her down
And in her pocket, these lines were found.

Dig my grave wide large and deep
Put a marble stone at my head and feet
And in the middle, a turtle dove,
That the world may see I died for love.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 04:17 PM

Hi,

I did find two versions of Foolish Young Girl but I can't understand this version which appears to be titled wrong:

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/17775/3

Nothing is easy :)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 01:19 PM

Hi,

If anyone has more versions, please post them, thanks Lighter and Georgiansilver.

I need help with version of this next small branch I've titled "Foolish Girl". It begins:

Oh what a foolish girl was I
To fall in love with an Irish boy/a sailor boy,

There's a version online from Shetland isles that you can listen here:

http://www.sssa.llc.ed.ac.uk/whalsay/2014/12/16/foolish-young-girl-the-2/

I only have a couple variants. Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 12:07 PM

Hi,

As an interesting "aside," I was listening to a 1935 Alan Lomax recording of Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky singing "Butcher's Boy":

http://lomaxky.omeka.net/items/show/59

She is sing Careless Love-- with the Butcher Boy text!!! The old female vocal of Careless Love with her apron low is another appendix of this large group of Died for love songs.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:54 PM

Hi Steve,

I do appreciate what Steve Roud has done-- very helpful-- and these "Died for Love" ballads are an example of how difficult categorizing ballads can be. The problem is two-fold:

1. Apparently no one really understands the source ballads-- at least in the example above.

2. The ballads are made up of multiple source ballads some of which use the same title for different ballads.

Just need more tweaking :) You have obviously been instrumental in breaking up Roud 60 and so we go.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM

Ok Steve here's an example, "Beam of Oak" Roud 18830 this is according to Traditional Ballad Index which has:

Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)

DESCRIPTION: A farmer's daughter loves a servant man. Her father has him sent to sea. He is killed in battle. His ghost visits the father. The daughter hears about it. She hangs herself. Father finds her hanging. Her note blames the father, who goes mad
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1910 (Lomax, Cowboy Songs)
KEYWORDS: battle navy death suicide father lover ghost
FOUND IN: Canada(Newf) US(SE,So)
REFERENCES (7 citations):
Leach-Labrador 15, "Beam of Oak" (1 text, 1 tune)
MHenry-Appalachians, pp. 173-174, "I Am A Rambling Rowdy Boy" (1 text, short enough that it might be a "Butcher Boy" version, but the first verse tentatively puts it here)
Warner 86, "A Rude and Rambling Boy" (1 text, 1 tune)
Owens-2ed, pp. 61-62, "Oh, Willie" (1 text, 1 tune)
BrownII 81, "The Butcher Boy" (6 texts plus 5 excerpts and mention of 3 others; although most are clearly Laws P24, Renwick believes the "M" text is "Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)")
Darling-NAS, pp. 106-107, "The Rambling Boy" (1 text) {filed here based on the title}
ADDITIONAL: Renwick: Roger deV. Renwick, _Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths_, University Press of Mississippi, 2001, pp. 94-95, "Rambling Boy" (1 text, from Lomax's _Cowboy Songs_); also, on pp. 108-109, a broadside, "The Rambling Boy," from Pitts, which he considers to have influenced the song; p. 113, "(William, William, I Love You Well")" (1 text, of another related text)
ST LLab015 (Partial)
Roud #18830
BROADSIDES:
cf. Bodleian, Harding B 25(1597), "The Rambling Boy" ("I an a wild and rambling boy"), J. Pitts (London), 1802-1819 [barely legible]; also Harding B 11(4216), "The Rambling Boy," T. Birt, London, 1833-1841 [This is the related broadside cited by Renwick, not the true "Beam of Oak/Oh Willie" song]
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] (theme)
cf. "The Isle of Cloy" (Roud #23272) (location in the "Isle of Cloy," mentioned in the Bodleian "Rambling Boy" broadsides)
NOTES: This is not "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] in spite of the suicide by hanging, the father finding the body and the suicide note. Consider the differences: the lover is faithful, the father causes the separation, the lover is killed and his ghost returns, and the suicide note blames the father. - BS
Roud used to lump this with "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" [Laws P25], but this is a much more detailed song than that. At most, it might be the inspiration, but even that seems forced. The feeling seems very different -- more like "The Suffolk Miracle" than "The Butcher Boy." In more recent editions, Roud has moved it to #18830, a much more obscure song although related to "The Butcher Boy." It may be that he did this on the basis of Roger deV. Renwick, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths, University Press of Mississippi, 2001. Renwick, pp. 92-115 is an essay, "'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad," which makes a case for this song's independence. Roud's list of versions doesn't correspond precisely with van Renwick's. And the suicide at the end means that fragmentary versions can hardly be classified; readers should surely check both.
Renwick considers the family to include not just this song and "The Butcher Boy" but also "Love Has Brought Me to Despair," plus lyric pieces he calls "Deep in Love" and "Died for Love," which are almost beyond classification; "Waly Waly" is probably one of them.
The description of this version is based mostly on Leach. Renwick, pp. 100-101, notes the usual differences between this song and "The Butcher Boy": This is told from the man's point of view, it usually opens with him describing himself as some sort of rambler, and it continues with the man's fate after the girl's suicide. Also, the father threatens Willie, and the mother generally does not make an appearance in this song. He also says on p. 107 that it oftan the woman, not the man, who was unfaithful. In broad summary, Renwick calls this a song of Family Opposition to Lovers, whereas "The Butcher Boy" is a song about an unfaithful lover. Thus, in theme, the two are quite different; it is the suicide that pulls them together.- RBW

Out of Roud's 19 listings for 18830 only one of them is actually barely related to "lover sent to sea, dies by cannonball". Of course it doesn't help that Roger deV. Renwick doesn't know the source ballads or Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW).

Rambling Boy is not part of 18830 and only the "Rambling Boy" is "Answer to Rambling Boy" which is a different ballad than all the rambling boy ballads.

So I don't know 3 of the broadsides but by the opening line-- it looks like Roud 18830 is not the same ballad Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW) refers to.

So I'm confused about what is what. Further, "Beam of Oak" should refer to the beam of oak which the maid uses to hag herself. But no- that has nothing to do with the title and also the "Isle of Cloy" is a mishearing of Auchnacloy, which is in Ireland.

There is an excellent version of "Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. That version is not even mentioned.

This may be Traditional Ballad Index's doing- but Roud 18830 makes no sense either.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 06:40 PM

Hi,

Thanks Georgiansilver for the text and the link.

Steve, I'll start using Roud numbers I get confused because even though they are improved- I'm not sure if they are right for certain versions. I was looking at Beam of Oak- as an example.

I'll look at the book, Narrative Folksong. Please send me more broadsides if you have them and the Greig-Duncan versions.

I'm starting to get the branches sorted out. This is what I have so far:

A. Died for Love
   a. "The Effects of Love- A New Song," (broadside) London c. 1780:

B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball)
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   e. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   f. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   g. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   h. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   i. "Black Birds.' Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny Couny, NC, 1938
   j. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   k. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC , 1966.

C. Brisk Young Sailor
   a. "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart," from the Manchester Central library; c.1775. It is mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth.
   b. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid," London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785.
   c. "Rambling Boy," from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   d. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by W. Pratt, Printer, 82, Digbeth, Birmingham; c.1850
   e. "Died For Love" (A bold young farmer) Isla Cameron

D. Sheffield Park (In Sheffield Park there did live and dwell)
a. "The Young Man of Sheffield Park." Printed and sold by J. Jennings, No. 15, Water lane, Fleet street London; c. 1790.
b. "The Young Man of Sheffield Park" printed by Evans of 42 Long Lane, London, c1794.
c. "Sheffield Park" Pitts, Printer, wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials; London, c. 1820.
d. "The Unfortunate Maid of Sheffield," Holroyd's Collection of Yorkshire Ballads by Abraham Holroyd, 1892.
e. "In Yorkshire Park" sung by Robert Barratt at Puddletown, 1905.
f. "In Sheffield Park" Miss E. King of Castle Eaton, Wiltshire; collected Alfred Williams, 1916.
g. "In Sheffield Park," sung by Enos White with his wife- collected by Bob Copper in Axford, Hampshire about 1954.
h. "Sheffield Park," sung by Frank Hinchliffe, recorded by Mike Yates and Ruairidh Greig in 1976.

E. Butcher Boy ("In Jersey city where I did dwell")
   a. "The Butcher Boy." broadside [Philadelphia] : J.H. Johnson, song publisher, 7 N. Tenth St., Philadelphia., c. 1860
   b. "The Butcher Boy," broadside from H. De Marsan (New York), 1861-1864 Bodleian, Harding B 18(72) c. 1860
   c. "The Butcher Boy of Baltimore," words and music by Harry Tofflin. "Wm. J. Schmidt, 2507 W. North Ave. NY c. 1865
   d. "The Butcher Boy." Broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City; c.1890.

I haven't put many of the traditional versions on- plus several broadsides that don't fit A-E,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 03:53 PM

A sailor coming home on leave.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 03:50 PM

Just found this on Youtube... the same tune I used to sing it....
    A sailor coming home on leave.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:39 AM

Jon,
I'm no expert on tune relatives but it seems to me the English 'Died for Love' Roud 18828, is basically the same tune as the American 'Blue-eyed Boy' Roud 18831. and there is some slight cross-over of text. It has the ring of Vaudeville about it, quite unfolklike.

It is one of my family songs by the way. Both my Uncle and my sister sang versions.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:34 AM

Hi Richie,
Others might find it easier to follow if you clearly separated the different autonomous laments that now have separate Roud numbers. Most scholars now use Roud numbers for clarity. Or you could use my Master Titles which I sent you.

I did warn you it might drive you mad!

I'll come back into the fray when I can get regular access to my computer.

Some streams are not directly related to each other but share common stock from older versions.


You might try to get hold of a different approach from the 1980s, championed by Indiana Uni. A book I've just acquired called ironically 'Narrative Folksong: New Directions. ed. Edwards & Manley, p59, Green Grows the Laurel. Whole book essential reading. Wish I'd had it earlier.

Happy New Year,
Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 04:45 AM

A variation of one of the few versions of a song already mentioned.

A SAILORS LEAVE

A sailor, coming home on leave,
Did find his house without a light.
He crept up to his daughters room,
And found her hanging from a beam.

So he got his knife and cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found.
I loved a sailor, loved him true,
Oh see what true love can do.

Oh father do not weep for me,
He was a sailor young and free.
He took me down a shady lane,
Now for his love I die in vain.

Oh dig my grave go dig it deep,
And place white lilies at my feet.
And at my head go place a dove,
To show that I have died for love.

So I dug her grave I dug it deep,
I placed white lilies at her feet.
And at her head I placed a dove,
To show that she had died for love.

Now all you maidens bear in mind,
A good mans love is hard to find.
So if you find one good and true,
Don't trade the old love for the new.

Used to sing this acapella at Folk clubs in the 1970's

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 26 Dec 16 - 09:09 PM

Hi,

"The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an earlier theme of a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." The title is The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire).


In "The Deceased Maiden Lover" a maiden whose heart has been mortally wounded by a "False man" wanders about picking flowers and herbs for her death bed-- she cries "Alas there's none ere lov'd like me!"

When shee had fild her apron full
Of such sweet flowers as she could cull,
The green Leaves servd her for her Bed
The Flowers pillowes for her head.

In The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire the maid performs a similar task:

The Lady round the meadow run,
and gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
until she got her apron full.

"Now there's a flower," she did say,
"is named Heart's-ease, night and day;
I wish I could that flower find,
for to ease my love-sick mind.

"But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain
for me to sigh and to complain;
There 's nothing that can ease my smart,
for his disdain will break my heart."

The green ground served as a bed, and flowers,
a pillow for her head;
She laid her down, and nothing spoke:
alas! for love her heart was broke.

Stanzas from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" appear in the "Died For Love" Songs and "Constant Lady" is the basis for "Love Has Brought me to Despair" and a stanza is also found in the related "Sailor Boy."

I'm not sure I see a close connection between "Died For Love" and Deceased Maiden Lover." Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 26 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM

Hi,

[Here's Deceased Maiden Lover which a Sam Henry's Songs of the People editor lists a version of Died For Love. It's in quatrain form with a two line chorus. I believe it's by lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583–1633)- does anyone know?]

"The Deceased Maiden Lover," to the tune 'Bonny Nell,' attributed to lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583–1633); published in Playford's Ayres and Dialogues, fol. 1652.

Being a pleasant new Court-Song: to an excellent
new tune. Or to be sung to the tune of Bonny Nell

AS I went forth one Summers day,
To view the Meddowes fresh & gay
A pleasant Bower I espide,
Standing hard by a River side:
And int a Maiden I heard cry,
Alas theres none ere lovd like I.

I couched close to heare her mone,
With many a sigh and heavie grone,
And wisht that I had been the might
That might have bred her hearts delight
But these were all the words that she
Did still repeate, none loves like me.

Then round the Meddowes did she walke
Catching each Flower by the stalke,
Such as within the Meddowes grew,
As Dead-mans-thumb & Hare-bel blew
And as she pluckt them, still crid she
Alas theres none ere lovd like me.

A Bed therein she made to lie,
Of fine greene things that grew fast by,
Of Poplers and of Willow leaves,
Of Sicamore and flaggy sheaves:
And as she pluckt them still crid she,
Alas theres none ere loud like mee.

The little Larke-foot, sheed not passe,
Nor yet the flouers of Three leavd grasse
With Milkmaids Hunny-suckles phrase
The Crows-foot, nor the yellow Crayse,
And as she pluckt them still cride she,
Alas theres none ere lovd like me.

The pretty Daisie which doth show
Her love to phoebus bred her woe,
Who joyes to see his chearefull face,
And mournes when he is not in place.
Alacke, alacke, alacke, quoth she
Theres none that ever loves like me.

The flowers of the sweetest scent,
She bound them round with knotted Bent
And as she laid them still in bands,
She wept she waild, and wrung her hands
Alas, alas, alas, quoth she.
Theres none that ever lovd like me.

False man (quoth she) forgive thee heaven
As I do with my sinnes forgiven:
In blest El[i]zium I shall sleep,
when thou with pe[j]urd soule shalt weepe:
Who when they lived did like to thee,
That lovd there loves as thou dost me.

When shee had fild her apron full
Of such sweet flowers as she could cull,
The green Leaves servd her for her Bed
The Flowers pillowes for her head.
then down she lay, nere more did speak
alas with love her heart did breake.

FINIS.
Printed by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke.

Additional I realized I had confused "Rambling Boy" with "Answer to Rambling Boy earlier in this thread--mea culpa-- both were published in a Scottish chapbook by Robertson in 1799. "Rambling Boy" is of the Brisk Young Sailor branch and is different than "Answer To Rambling Boy." The three versions where the cruel father sends him to sea appear on my web-site as:

B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball)
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 26 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM

Hi,

A couple questions. What is the source of this stanza in Amy Birch's version? Where did she learn her version and why is it sometimes titled "Up the Green Meadows"?

There is a flower I have heard people say
They grow by night and fade by day
Now if that flower I could find
It would cure my heart and ease my mind

Why is "Deceased Maiden Lover" listed as a version of the Died for Love songs in Sam Henry's Songs of the People?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 06:14 PM

Hi,

Early beds used hemp or linen rope that was stretched over the bed frame which supported the mattress. They are called rope beds.

Not sure is this was the rope used which would be a bed rope or if it was a rope for the canopy.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Thompson
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 04:18 PM

What's a bed rope?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 01:58 PM

Merry Christmas!!!

Here's a version of the Cruel Father/Rambling Boy branch:

The Squire's Daughter (Broadside by W. Shelmerdine, Manchester c1800). Original spelling preserved.

A squire's daughter near Auchen Coley,
Fell in [love] with a servant boy,
When her father came to hear,
He parted her from her dearest dear.

He anguish to increase the more,
Sent her love where the cannons roar,
To act the part of a gallant tar,
On board the Terrible man of war.

The ship was scarce three months at sea,
Till she fell in with a bloody frea.
It was the poor lad's lot to fall,
When he lost his life by a cannon ball.

The very night this young man was slain,
His ghost unto her father came,
With grievous groans by the bed he stood,
His neck and breast were smear'd with blood.

His father seeing this sad sight
He lay trembling with the fright
Being almost ready to die with fear
Till the grim ghost did disappear

The lady hearing this sad news
Her sense full surely it did confuse
That very night on a beam of oak,
She hanged herself with her own bed rope.

He went upstairs and cut her down
And in her breast a note was found.
And it is written as you see,
Cruel father you have ruined me.

Cruel father the worst of all men
You have brought me to this sad end,
You sent my love where cannons roar,
Which prov'd his death and overthrow.

Now since it's so my love is slain
And buried deep in the watery main,
Adieu false world my leave I'll take,
I'll die a maid for my true love's sake.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 07:02 AM

> This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (etc)

It seems to me that all of these songs are mix-and-match combinations of a whole load of floating elements, including some narrative ones (such as the courtship, and the father finding the girl hanging) and others with no narrative aspect (such as "There is a bird ...").

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:13 PM

Hi,

This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy").

Randolph endorsed it in Ozark Folksongs.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:01 PM

Hi,

To be fair to Cox although Cruel Father/Rambling Boy is a different ballad it does have the suicide and ending stanza. And he didn't say the rest of the ballad was similar.

Richie