BS: A new political low take 2

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 01:36 PM

" was not given any such thing!"
Not true - but good to see you are still supporting him despite saying that you didn't
GSS has done a great job of boxing you into a corner though
If you do suppoert him - why lie
If you don't - why make such an effort on his behalf?
You really haven't got the hang of this yet, have you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 02:32 PM

Dave,
I stated my views. Simple as that.

Yes, thereby instigating a discussion.

I do not have to justify myself to anyone though.

You have to justify your views or it is not a discussion.
This is a discussion forum, not a graffiti wall!

I don't expect to win or lose any debates.

Neither do I, but if I made a claim or stated an opinion that I could not justify then I would know that I had indeed lost and would either retract or withdraw.
You have chosen the latter.

differs with me to such an extent that I cannot even comprehend their views.

No problem. Just say which of my views you can not comprehend and I will explain it simply.

Jim,
If you don't - why make such an effort on his behalf?

Because you were all making false statements about him, and I admit I enjoy showing you up for what you are.
I am anti EU and have been since before there was a UKIP.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:00 PM

This is a discussion forum, not a graffiti wall!

Ahhhh. Yet another one who has decided that Mudcat is for their own purposes. It is whatever we need it to be. I am sure that the management team will sort it our if they feel it is going astray. I have neither retracted nor withdrawn because to do so would mean I believed it to be a debate in the first place. It never was as far as I was concerned.

Another thread gone the way of the last one I suppose. I'll leave to to it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:16 PM

To us in California who've heard his name, Farage seems to be a right-wing extremist. How much of the UK population support him, would you suppose?

To us in California, Trump seems to be simply an idiot. We thought he might have had support of 20 percent of the U.S. population, but somehow we got stuck with him as President.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 04:52 PM

Joe, I think you are being slightly disingenuous. A quick look through Mr Farage's interviews and statements on you tube should assure you that he is no extremist, on the right or on the left.
What makes you say such a thing without recourse to evidence?
Mr Farage opposes the EU on grounds of sovereignty ...the USA would never accept legislation from some other body which demanded that it accept unregulated immigration from overseas, so why do you think Mr Farage an extremist? He is actually an old "one nation conservative"

Don't believe all the media tell you Joe they may have ulterior motives :0)

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 04:59 PM

That is exactly what he is, Joe. But, as Keith says, he is also very clever and wily, which makes him very dangerous. I cannot believe for one minute that I am more perceptive than other people yet I can seem to see through his facade where some cannot. As has been pointed out you will find nothing to link him directly to the politics of hate, yet he seems to engender the same wherever he goes. I find it difficult to get my head around it yet I am sure there were many in 1930s Germany who felt the same. He is very dangerous indeed and don't let the right wingers on here tell you otherwise.

Thanks for your trans Atlantic view.

Cheers


DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:30 PM

"
That is exactly what he is, Joe. But, as Keith says, he is also very clever and wily, which makes him very dangerous. I cannot believe for one minute that I am more perceptive than other people yet I can seem to see through his facade where some cannot. As has been pointed out you will find nothing to link him directly to the politics of hate, yet he seems to engender the same wherever he goes."

Cant believe anyone had the gall to put their name to that. Your opinions are simply opinions with not a scrap of evidence to back them up. Go listen to the man's interviews....there is no excuse for ignorance these days

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:55 PM

I have the gall to put my name to it.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 06:33 PM

Go listen to the man's interviews...

Are you serious? He's a serial and professional liar like his buddy Trump.

And so, I'll put my name to it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 09:17 PM

Far above the screen you are seeing is a higher perspective, from there you can see part of the US and UK.

From there you have super vision and perspective.

From there you can even see social media flowing like rivers of discussion about White Identity Politics. Extreme blending of opinions at this perspective all begin to look like brown lakss.




even Keith who in contrast is obsessed and deranged for polite civility, peace, truth and rational thought looks almost similar to right wing repeatists and extremists. Shaw commentary turns into the rest of the harrumph stained lakes. And I, I am but a whispering shadow.


But AKE got it right, BRIGHT and visible from the rarified thin atmosphere.

Yes Indeed TRUMP IS WILEY.   Wiley E Coyote. We all know how well Wiley's far fetched schemes worked. They all worked against him, falling all the way down from the highest perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 09:28 PM

Thank you for redacting the middle of my last post.
Some things while true are the hardest thing for mortals to read let alone understand.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 04:05 AM

I wonder why it is that opinions that differ from those of certain members on here are considered ignorant by some. The opening article gives the opinion of Owen Jones, a left wing but well respected political journalist. I purposely chose one that was not as bad as many others. Try this one on Farage's visit to Scotland if you want to see how the majority in Scotland view him - The majority in this case being members of the SNP. Are these all ignorant as well? Again, I feel in good company.

I repeat, I believe the man is both despicable and dangerous. Wily he may be but he has not fooled everyone.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 04:42 AM

Incidentaly, for anyone remotely interested, the original thread, prior to someone getting it closed by a series of unwarranted and unprovoked attacks, was entitled A new political low? Posing the question as to whether anyone agreed with the linked article. I fully understood that some people would agree and some would not but that does beggar the question as to why I should be so attacked, deemed ignorant by some and a troll by others for agreeing with someone who is well respected.

Makes you wonder who it is that really wants freedom of speech doesn't it?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:02 AM

Dave,
Yet another one who has decided that Mudcat is for their own purposes. It is whatever we need it to be.

No. It IS a discussion forum. Sorry but it is.

I am sure that the management team will sort it our if they feel it is going astray.

Your first thread on this proved so divisive and inflammatory that they had to close it after less than eight hours.
To post inflammatory and divisive statements with no intention of justifying them or entering into free and open discussion really is just trolling Dave.


I repeat, I believe the man is both despicable and dangerous.

Then tell us why Dave!
What has he ever done that is despicable? Why can't you tell us??
In what way is he dangerous? Why can't you tell us.
Like arseholes, everyone has an opinion.
Unless you can justify it, it is of no more interest than your arsehole is.
Just a whim from an empty head.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:13 AM

Greg,
Are you serious? He's a serial and professional liar like his buddy Trump.

But you can not quote a single one!
Your statement is just another of YOUR lies.
It is a joke that you are accusing someone else of being a serial liar while lying yourself.

Dave again,
Farage's visit to Scotland if you want to see how the majority in Scotland view him

The majority in Scotland want to remain in EU. That is why he is opposed there.
The majority in England and Wales want out. That is why he has such support. He won the last EU election. The firsts election not won by the established parties for centuries.

Nothing to do with right wing politics Joe.
Traditional Labour voters comprise most of his support.
It is just about the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:13 AM

Yes, Keith. Just a whim from an empty head if that makes you feel any better. If, however, you have no interest in my opinions why do you respond to them? I would like nothing better than to be ignored by you and your friends. It would certainly make a lot of people happier.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:22 AM

If, however, you have no interest in my opinions why do you respond to them?

But I do have interest in your opinions Dave.
I just want to know why you hold them.
If they are based on no actual knowledge or facts, it makes a difference to how much attention anyone should give to them.
None, if they are based on just whims and prejudice.

I also want you to tell me why you think mine are wrong.
Can you?
If not, perhaps they are right and yours wrong Dave.
You need facts and knowledge to choose between contradictory opinions.
You seem to have none.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:41 AM

My opinions are based on many things Keith. Often no specific thing but a balance of probabilities. In this instance I am agreeing with Owen Jones and a number of other political commentators. I have seen both sides of the argument and, on balance, I believe Farage is all I have said before. I have no interest whatsoever in even attempting to discuss it with someone of such a wildly different opinion that it can only ever end badly.

I am really not interested in your opinions or why you hold them. You do not have to justify anything to me. I accept that they are your opinions and that you have arrived at them somehow. Can you just not offer the same consideration?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:52 AM

Sorry, I mis-phrased my last bit there. I am interested in the opinions of others. I have no interest at all in why they hold those opinions and have no interest in trying to get them to change their minds. I have friends across the whole spectrum of political beliefs and we accept each other for what we are. It is futile to try and change a belief that has been built on 60+ years of experience. What we need to find is common ground and, where there is none, there is no basis for discussion.

Hope that helps.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 06:11 AM

It does not help Dave.
I have no interest at all in why they hold those opinions and have no interest in trying to get them to change their minds.
If you have no interest in discussing opinions, what are you doing here?
What was the point in starting this thread?
If all us contributors merely stated our opinions there would only be about ten posts and none of us would have learned a single thing.

I have no interest whatsoever in even attempting to discuss it with someone of such a wildly different opinion that it can only ever end badly.


How sad that you can not exchange views with people holding different opinions without it ending badly!
I can and I do. Some very close friends of mine hold wildly different political views and it just adds to the fun when we get together.

This is a discussion forum Dave.
If you post controversial statements you must expect to be asked to support them and to have them challenged.
That is what the rest of us come here for.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 06:30 AM

There you go again, Keith. Telling us what Mudcat is. It is many things to many people. I shall use it and post to it as I see fit until such a time that I am told otherwise. Just looking down todays threads I can see that many are not discussions as you describe them at all. You tell me I must expect to be challenged and I do. I also expect to be treated with respect and not be told I am empty headed because I do not fit in with your 'rules'. If you are only interested in discussions I can save you a lot of work - Just stay away from the threads that do not fit your criteria.

Seemples

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 06:52 AM

"How sad that you can not exchange views with people holding different opinions without it ending badly!
You "debate" to win Keith
If you can't win with argument, you cheat - stonewalling by asking questions that have been answered, repeating arguments that have been shot down in flames, misquoting historians you haven't read - and the latest - the silence of "decent countries".
You bring no foreknowledge and your reactionary extremist ideas are predictable and can be scooped up from the headlines of any tabloid.
You deny what you have written and when it is put before you you argue for it all over again (your disgusting "implants" claim is a typical example.
You don't have the bottle to stand behind your beliefs - you claim you are not a Farragoite, yet you have bent over backwards defending his scummy attacks on Jo Cox's husband.
You are probably the longest-standing troll on this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 07:23 AM

Jim, Keith is entitled to his opinions as you are to yours and I am to mine. I am only saying that I am not interested in how those opinions were arrived at or in changing anyone's mind. I have no doubt that Keith is interested in what went into my opinions but he does not seem to accept that it is not always as easy as that. On the other hand I will not dismiss Keith's opinion as merely reactionary and extremist as I am sure he has thought as long and hard as I have to arrive at his views. I can also see and understand what you are saying as I have been down that path but have now realised it gets us nowhere. Say your bit, let others have their say and let others decide who is right or wrong. Don't expect people to play by your own rules but do stick to your principles. Just my opinion of course... :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 08:08 AM

"Jim, Keith is entitled to his opinions as you are to yours and I am to mine. "
Dave - I talk about his track record of behaviour on thread after thread over a number of years - if it were a matter of his opinions alone - fine, we could move on and agree to disagree, but his terrier like quest in winning something, in my opinion, has become detrimental to genuinely enchanting information.
He shows no interest in debating, just in winning, and is prone to crowing when he believes he has done so.
Some of his opinions I believe to be offensive, even to the extent of being illegal elsewhere.
I understand there used to be a number of Muslims on this forum - there no loger are - a great pity on a musoc thread, in my opinion.
If I were of that faith, I wouldn't hang around too long to be told I am a danger to underage girls because of my culture.
Keith is not the only one, of course -
I have no doubt there are a number of homosexuals sharing ideas with us - several have stated so
I can imagine how I would feel to be told I am a disease carrying pervert whose sexual orientation is a conscious choice
Perhaps it's not a bad time of year for a couple of us to start reforming our social behaviour and considering others.
Happy New Year to all who deserve one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:06 AM

Keith is no troll Jim....he deals in facts, rarely opinions.

"There you go again, Keith. Telling us what Mudcat is. It is many things to many people. I shall use it and post to it as I see fit until such a time that I am told otherwise"
This is the contribution of a proper devious troll, he starts thread after thread with the intention of provoking not discussion but aggression.

The "new political low" thread being a perfect example.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:08 AM

Dave,
There you go again, Keith. Telling us what Mudcat is.

No. I told you what Mudcat says it is.
"The Mudcat Cafe is a music discussion forum. "
We now also have below the line for non-music discussion but it defines itself as a "discussion forum."

From your OP of this thread,
"Maybe this time we can have a sensible discussion."

So you are now disagreeing not just with me, but with Mudcat and yourself too.

This is a discussion forum Dave.
If you post controversial and contentious statements you must expect to be asked to support them and to have them challenged.
That is what the rest of us come here for.

I also expect to be treated with respect and not be told I am empty headed because I do not fit in with your 'rules'

I did no such thing Dave. Why pretend it?

I said,
"Like arseholes, everyone has an opinion.
Unless you can justify it, it is of no more interest than your arsehole is.
Just a whim from an empty head. "

If you really have no actual knowledge or facts to base your opinions on, it is fair comment.
You did say that you were just choosing not to divulge the knowledge and facts behind your claims.
Refusing to engage in discussion, on a discussion forum, in a thread you started by asking for discussion!

If you are only interested in discussions I can save you a lot of work - Just stay away from the threads that do not fit your criteria.
All threads do, including this one.

Jim, again everything you just said about me is a lie.
Just more personal abuse. This is not about me or any individual apart from Farage.
Instead of trying to fake a "track record" to use in a personal attack, discuss the issues.
Quote us Farage saying the despicable things you accuse him of.
Why can't you do that simple thing Jim?
Is any of it true or not?

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:28 AM

DtG, you can go back 12 years and see people accusing admin for mudcat for being fascist for different reasons.

It was said that the BS section is what you make it .

My fanciful points out that we all are reacting to a monumental shift in a perception of reality that has been foisted upon us all that no longer has rules, no longer has precedent, no longer has seriously obeys law. There is an abeyance of access to the President but instead spokes people who deal out misinformation and confusion to hide the fact Trump is a linear no nothing except personal profit by lies.

I don't give a crap about who swears at who

1 Its friendly fun sometimes

2 When the purpose is to instigate a knee jerk closing of a thread it is always done by right wing extremists. Why Steve complies with that UGIdiot's strategy is not smart or helpful from my pov but having a temperament is everyone's personal choice.

3   swearing is part of our lexicon.


We are doing our best to learn how to deal with the short sighted politics of white identity and global fascism. Watching Democracy gradually evaporate is not my idea of time well spent.


The right speaks the language of the emotional but not factually true

The left speaks the language of intellectual cause and effect and effect.

They do not speak the same language so rarely listen to one another. It is a dialog of reacting to the latest outrageous claim.




Elections used to end at our shores. That has now been violated.

On this we must all agree on THIS or nothing we know as citizenship or borders or sovereignty will exist. The anti globalist can become the biggest globalist of all.


Let us have thicker skin than Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:35 AM

"my fanciful post points out...

elections must end at or shores..

even though borders from a higher perspective are not real."

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:41 AM

Donuel,

"2 When the purpose is to instigate a knee jerk closing of a thread it is always done by right wing extremists."

This is verifiably NOT a factual statement, unless you mean to say that when the Left does so it is OK, but when the Right does so the thread is closed.



"The right speaks the language of the emotional but not factually true

The left speaks the language of intellectual cause and effect and effect."


Not a proven statement by any means. I have been seeing statements here about Trump that, if made about Obama, would have the thread closed. Seems like the rules change when it is the majority viewpoint that is under attack.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:54 AM

"Elections should end at our shores" a good principle Don but one which has never been observed.....the CIA have been complicit in the rigging of more elections, in more countries than I can remember.
President Obama has seen fit to intervene personally in at least two of the latest UK elections.

The allegations that the hacking of DPC files was ordered by the Russian state are simply allegations.....no proof of their voracity has been offered.

You remarks regarding the closing of threads being exclusively the fault of "right wing members" is simply not true, as many threads in which I had taken part have had to be closed by admin because of the vicious personal abuse from "liberal" members. If you like I can reprint some of it, those who are still contributing here will not be proud of their behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM

Yes Keith. Saying an opinion that is not evidenced by your rules is just a whim from an empty head is not the same as saying I have an empty head. Asking if it OK to call a grieving widower an arsehole is not the same as calling that widower and arsehole. Saying that someone has made their point and you can like it or lump it is not the same as asking someone politely to fuck off. We can all make up silly little rules to suit our games but not everyone has to abide buy them. I chose to base my opinions of 60+ years of experience, the experience of my peers, friends and family and the voices of those political commentators I respect, such as Owen Jones. You, for some reason, do not believe that is good enough. I believe it is. Where do we go from here?

Ake, you got the last thread closed. Does that not tell you something?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 10:05 AM

I got the last thread closed? how did you come to that conclusion?
I have been told that it was because of aggressive posting, something I do not indulge in.
If there is a rule regarding what political views are permitted, I am unaware of it

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 10:11 AM

No need to come to a conclusion, ake. It is there in black and white.

Subject: RE: BS: A new politcal low?
From: Acme - PM
Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:48 AM

Ake, you're the troll, and you've tangled this thread into a hot mess.

This Thread Is Closed.

If anyone doubts the veracity of that please feel free to follow this link.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 10:32 AM

Donuel, I care not a jot about people expressing criticisms of me on this forum. It goes with the territory. It would be good, however, if you could couch such criticisms in language that I can actually understand.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 10:49 AM

Any time my dad said "you always..." it made me mad.

I am guilty of saying "you always".
Part of me is becoming my dad.
I think most guys are becoming their dad.

For the second time since we are without previous precedent, law and are in danger of having the proletariats believe intellectuals are an enemy of the state, we need to listen to each other and let some things go.

What we do by nature is only react to the most recent offense to our own way of thinking. Common ground on Earth and perhaps a higher perspective are needed. We are starting to accept Nuclear War again justified by Conspiracy Theory. ( I kid you not )

Let it go is an olde lesson but it must be done

Some folks are smarter about some things, let it go
Robots are better at some things, let it go
Some sermons and theories are not true, let it go.
We all have abilities and disabilities, let it go.
(except for the fully actualized person who is perfect but nobody is perfect.)

One might see an insult or lie and another will not or can not see it.
You know that the one person whose mind can not be changed is not the one who will grant your wish for understanding.
Instead we must find things of agreement first, even the mundane, and little by little we will learn a common language.

1% agreement may be enough to save everyone.

On Sept 25th 1983 we were all saved by Stan. He was an employee, a soldier who reported a false alarm of incoming nukes despite the fact all instruments and alarms said otherwise. His treason or thinking for himself saved YOU. He was Russian but this scenario has happened almost 20 times since.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 10:57 AM

Steve I can't put my finger on why I felt a need to prod your ego but I did and understand your request.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:00 AM

I'm not sure where Stan came in but I am in full agreement about

One might see an insult or lie and another will not or can not see it.
You know that the one person whose mind can not be changed is not the one who will grant your wish for understanding.
Instead we must find things of agreement first, even the mundane, and little by little we will learn a common language.

It is what I have been trying to say and, in my own way, trying to do on the thread named something about 'usual suspects'. It is what I have been unsuccessful in trying to explain why there is no point in starting from so far apart that we cannot even see each other. It is why we need to concentrate more on similarities than differences.

I suspect I will have my olive branch shoved up my arse yet agian though :-(

Thanks for trying anyway Donuel.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:01 AM

So, you believe there are Unicorns in Ohio, Greggie?


Should have figured that.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:12 AM

HAHAHA DtG Olive branch...
That caught me off guard and lost some coffee.

Stanislav figured that his instruments made no sense so he used his own sense and averted a nuclear holocaust. The websites people chose are like our own instruments and I believe some of them do not make sense. This true of red and blue.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:36 AM

The point was that the statement I made was that something was NOT proven.


Your comment is of no value, as it seems is your existence.

Donuel is invited to provide some support for his statements, should he wish to do so.

You are invited to take a long walk off the shortest pier that you can find.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:36 AM

Steve, mystery solved.

I had consciously forgotten your reply to a post of mine that had the phrase "and now back to reality" That was combined with other negative associations I had with that phrase.

It serves as a good example of how we can accidentally make false assumptions or associations without awareness. Or maybe my ego didn't like the smart ass comment. Cool?

We all should try to ego proof ourselves but TRUMP SIMPLY CAN NOT.



Greg you are anathema to my social science theory and practice.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:41 AM

The point was that the statement I made was that something was NOT proven.

Exactly. As was mine. And you still don't get it.

Sorry, Donuel. I yam what I yam.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:59 AM

Bruce your need of reply regarding 'not a proven statement' is an example of how I do not understand your request. In my mindset I do not know how to justify truth, existence and life long observation. I think there is more than one mouthful in my words.

Your answer could be contained in a book about political hypnosis but I have not written it. If I did your mindset may still not understand it. There are books on the Hitler propaganda techniques and today's post truth age. I am not wise cracking here.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 11:59 AM

From today's Times
Jim Carroll

Hackers working for the Kremlin Targeted all walks of life in the West, says FBI
Mark Bridge
Russia is committed to a longstanding cybercampaign against the American government and its citizens in every arena, from politics to business and education, intelligence services have claimed.
In a joint report, the FBI and Department of Homeland Security said that the same Kremlin-backed hackers had been involved in multiple attacks. This fits with revelations in The Times this month that Russian hackers have attempted attacks on British targets.
The report said that covert Russian operations, codenamed Grizzly Steppe by US officials, were based around so¬phisticated "spearphishing" campaigns.
They used the tactics to access the computer systems of government orga¬nisations, critical infrastructure, think tanks, universities, political organisa¬tions, and corporations, leading to the theft of information.
It confirmed that recent big attacks were the works of the Kremlin-backed groups known as Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear, as private security operators had previously stated.
The report included an account of successful cyberattacks on the Demo¬cratic National Committee, which led to the damaging leaks of correspond¬ence between senior party figures by WikiLeaks. Investigators said Cozy Bear broke into the party's computer systems in the summer of last year, and Fancy Bear entered in spring this year.
It said Cozy Bear crafted spearphishing campaigns, where recipients of an email were enticed to open it because they thought it was from an official source. Once they did this, their computer was infected by "remote access tools" or RATs, giving them entry to all other computers on the network.
Fancy Bear worked slightly different¬ly, it said, creating fake domains that tricked people into entering legitimate credentials. The group compromised the party by sending a spearphishing email which tricked recipients into changing their passwords through a fake webmail domain. The email that tricked senior democrats such as John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman, contained a link that looked like a legitimate Google web address.
Using the harvested credentials, Fancy Bear was able to gain access and steal content, leading to the leaked emails from senior Democratic Party figures. "The US Government assesses that information was leaked to the press and publicly disclosed," the report continued, prompting some critics to complain it was stating the obvious.
The jargon-heavy report continued: "Once they have access to victims, both groups exfiltrate and analyse informa¬tion to gain intelligence value. These groups use this information to craft [further] highly targeted spearphishing campaigns. These (groups] set up operational infrastructure to obfuscate their source infrastructure, host domains and malware for targeting organizations, establish command and control nodes, and harvest credentials and other valuable information."
Spearphishing attacks are essentially the same as the Nigerian "phishing" attacks most British internet users are now wise to. The US government report indicated that the Russian attacks were particularly convincing, however.
Russia Today, the state-backed media outlet, responded to the US report by tweeting a picture of a grizzly bear ap¬parently playing a guitar.
The Times Dec 30th

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:14 PM

Russia did not politically assassinate Hillary.
We did that ourselves by believing innuendo.


Jim did you know 2 years ago a radio talk jock convinced the entire State of Texas that UN troops were about to invade Texas. The Governor even responded with the National Guard.



Trump will be sure to buy some freeze dried survivalist food companies before he rattles his nuclear sabre.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:15 PM

I think that quite nicely fits in to politics in general hitting a new low, Jim. Maybe it is my age and looking at the past through rose tinted specs but it is only in the last 10 years or so that I recall so much negativity going on. People no longer seem to vote for politicians and policies but against them. Campaigns are geared around peoples fears. People like Farage and Trump have cashed in greatly and, to be honest, I don't blame them.

If people are viewing mainstream politicians as so corrupt and so similar in style regardless of the party then the mavericks will make a killing. A quick spell at the soap box and the support of the popular press seems to be all they need to get the electorate so wound up about immigrants or terrorists or whatever they have latched on to.

Wasn't like that when I was a lad...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:17 PM

Donuel,


"The right speaks the language of the emotional but not factually true

The left speaks the language of intellectual cause and effect and effect."


Not a proven statement by any means. I have been seeing statements here about Trump that, if made about Obama, would have the thread closed. Seems like the rules change when it is the majority viewpoint that is under attack.



I look at the posts here, ans see attacks on Trump, and his supporters, that, if similar ones had been made about Obama, there would have been loud screams form the majority here. From observation, the rules about what is acceptable posting here is that anything a Liberal posts is OK, while any of the minority that attempt to defend their viewpoint are vilified and posts deleted.

I have been here longer than 13 years, and the Liberals here have not shown ANY great effort in presenting support for their statements. In fact, in most cases the assumption is that the Liberal "fact" needs no support, and should be assumed to be true, while the conservative statement is shredded and proof demand and then ignored. Hardly a valid way of making your ideas accepted by rational people.


As for Greg, he is the self-declared Liberal Poster Boy- How dare you say otherwise!! ;)

He makes Liberals look bad- yet I notice no effort to rein him in.

See his continued use of BSBruce...about me- My posts are deleted when I use GregtrF, or try to defend myself from his attacks- But then, he's "special".

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:17 PM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:20 PM

I have no ego, Donuel. Why, I'm an atheist who doesn't even know whether there's a God or not. Beat that for self-doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:28 PM

Disinformation is now done by phone and Facebook. They are our instruments. They will call us to war by tweet and post.
Most of us will believe anything. (present&future speculative tense)

When I was a lad there were kids who would look for hiding places from the Russians. (imperfect past tense)