BS: Theresa May's new year message

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 06:24 AM

Can I just make my point Keith
People have consistently put up proof of Ukip's racism and extremism, you respond my asking for proof, as if none has been put up (others have pointed this out to you).
I get fed up by putting up a load of lins to evidence - you respond by claiming there is too much.
I really don't think you have a case, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 06:31 AM

He's lost it this past week, Jim. Completely.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM

I Have already said that there is racism to a greater or lesser extent in all parties...the labour party regarding Jews, the SNP regarding English and I suppose some members of the Conservative party have racist views, but your allegations were against Mr Farage personally and you have produced no evidence to even suggest racism against him.
The Bus Campaign had nothing to do with Mr Farage and even if it did, it had no connection to racism.

For the final time, ALL mainstream parties have come to accept Mr Farage's contention that uncontrolled immigration is unsustainable. They may have been dragged screaming and kicking, but accept it they have and this must mean the end of "freedom of movement", this in turn must mean exit from the EU and all it's idiocies.
Nothing to do with race, just political numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 07:55 AM

I produced evidence of racism earlier.That does not mean every person who voted TO leave is a racist, I am fairly sure Denis Skinner voted leave. HOWEVER FARAGE IS A RACIST AND I PRODUCED EVIDENCE EARLIER.HERE,ANALYSIS OF UKIP'S NIGEL FARAGE'S XENOPHOBIC RHETORIC
14 March 2016       · by European Student Think Tank       · in ambassadors, articles and blogs, EU Foreign Policy, EU Policy Process, Eurocrisis, European Integration, Geen categorie, ISIS, Migration, Religion.       ·
By Matt Evans, British EST Ambassador. Matt is a final year BA (hons) History and Politics student at the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, UK.

16486626570_7f070e3bc4_o

The upcoming June referendum on whether Britain should remain a member of the European Union has once again increased the media's interest in the UK Independence Party, commonly known as UKIP. UKIP, formed in 1993 as a response to increasing European integration, are generally viewed as to the right on the political spectrum of the governing Conservative Party, advocating British withdrawal from the European Union and an end to what they view as "uncontrolled immigration".[1] Under the leadership of the charismatic but divisive Nigel Farage, the party has enjoyed recent electoral success, gaining the most seats and votes in the 2014 European Parliament election, marking the first time since 1910 that a party other than Labour and the Conservatives won the largest number of seats in a national election.[2] This article looks at a speech delivered by leader Farage when campaigning for UKIP in the 2015 UK General Election.

            As a part of the general election campaign the infamous Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, went to Grimsby Town Hall and urged the residents of Grimsby to vote for Victoria Ayling, a local councillor, as their next Member of Parliament[3]. This speech exemplifies a large part of Great Britain's scepticism towards the European Union. Given the situation as it was the general election and Farage was holding a speech in a town known for its fishing, it can be argued that he attempted to ignite a nostalgic and nationalist fire in Grimsby. He begins his speech by stating: "Grimsby used to be a great place"[4]. Already here, Farage is presenting a problem in the United Kingdom namely its lack of sovereignty. It can be argued that this problem is the overarching theme on Farage's agenda since, in his view, it is the root for the sinking fishing industry in Grimsby because of the Common Fisheries Policy, Great Britain's declining living conditions due to the Open Door Policy and the British debt due to the European Union membership.

            Farage gives a historical background of why Great Britain's sovereignty has declined according to his own view, which gives his audience an overview and general knowledge of the problem that Great Britain is currently in. Moreover, it is revealing that Farage had an understanding for his audience. This can be seen, for example, by his focus on the famous fishing industry in Grimsby which illustrates that the speech had a particular audience but also his aggressive quote that "Tony Blair can go to hell"[5] which was received by applause of the audience. He even says sarcastically that he misread the audience when he first mentions Tony Blair, indicating that he knows the audience.

First of all, by igniting the nostalgic and nationalistic fire in the audience, he manages to use the argumentative appeal of pathos. This can be tied into Aristotle's notion of emotions since Farage sparks dissatisfaction or even anger in the audience where Aristotle argues that if an item has importance, people will eventually get angry[6]. In this case, Farage is able to present a broken Great Britain and acknowledge it, which the residents of Grimsby are attached to. This indicates that the residents of Grimsby find an importance in Great Britain. Farage is able to direct that frustration and anger, and pinpoint the lack of sovereignty as the fundamental problem. This use of pathos can be considered rather successful since Farage's aim is convince the residents of Grimsby to vote for Ayling because belief and action are intertwined, according to Aristotle[7], and thus by making that certain belief a constituent part of emotion, Farage is able to gain more votes for UKIP.

            Another argumentative appeal is ethos, which he is able to portray through his view of Europe. By claiming that he is not against Europe as countries and people and that he, in fact, likes Europe, Farage is able to illustrate to the public that he is a concerned man of Great Britain rather than a fearful or discriminating man of Europe. In addition, he also presents himself as a moral character by telling the audience that the other politicians have been abusing him due to UKIP's "sensible" policies as he puts it[8].

            The last argumentative appeal is logos where Farage appeals to the rationality of the voters in Grimsby. This is illustrated when he makes the case that Great Britain should become like Norway and Iceland who have a booming fishing industry and are not a part of the European Union. Also, by giving a historical background of Great Britain's ties with the European Union, he also appeals to the rationality of the audience since they see a chronological timeline of the developing problem in Great Britain.

Farage uses contradictions in order to portray his policies as appealing. This can be exemplified by his view that controlling the borders of the United Kingdom "immigration once again becomes a positive in our country and not a negative"[9]. By using juxtapositions, Farage is able to make the audience differentiate between UKIP and the other parties, making UKIP more appealing to voters. It is also seen that Farage uses examples as inductions such as his argument for an increase in the defence budget that he compares to house insurance and the comparison that British debt is like maxing out a credit card. At the end of the speech, Farage states that he doesn't want to sell out nor have a ministerial car but rather wants to "drive the agenda of British politics the next five years"[10]. Here, an odd metaphor is applied in order to contrast what politicians want compared to what Farage want to do if elected but since it is the first metaphor that Farage uses in the speech, it also emphasises his goal of influencing British politics.

The hostility towards the European Union that Farage represents sums up the split in Great Britain. The latest opinion poll by Comres suggests that 49% of Britons want to remain in the EU whereas 41% wants to leave[11]. By analysing a speech by one of the leading figures of the British euroscepticism, we can clearly see that the charismatic Farage is able to adapt his rhetoric to different situations and the issues he touches upon are strong entities of British nationalism. Whether you agree with him or not, "[R]hetoric proves crucial when it comes to invoking discourses in the audience conducive to the claim made by the representative, and downplaying competing discourses"[12] and this is fundamental to the democratic ideals that Great Britain but also the European Union represent. Thus, it is important to acknowledge euroscepticism as a part of British political discourse since it illustrates the antagonism of views in British society.

All in all, Farage focuses on the particular audience by his examples and comparisons that are specific to the people in Grimsby, which helps igniting the nostalgic and nationalistic fire in Grimsby. Hence, the speech can be considered to be successful since it convinces the audience that the sole problem of British politics is its lack of sovereignty and UKIP can provide the solution to make Grimsby a thriving fishing town again.

[1] UKIP Manifesto 2015 "Immigration" p.10

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 07:56 AM

".the labour party regarding Jews, "
Can't speak for the S.N.P. with any authority, but I suspect that your accusation has about as much substance as does accusations of that made against Labour - there is no evidence whatever of antisemitism being a problem within the ranks of the party and there never will be until somebody provides substance to those claims by describing it.
Traditionally, the extremist right groups and the Tory Party are the natural homes of antisemitism - Tory newspapers advocated fascism and supported the Fascists that took to the streets right up to the poin hen the war made it illegal to do so, and even then, members of parliament and The House of Lords were making pnans for when "Herr Hitler won the war".
For all its other failings, The Labour Party as an organisation, has declared its opposition to all forms of racism and sectarianism - hardly surprising as it came into being with the support of many 19th century Jews fleeing the European pogroms.
If you have any evidence that any of this is not true, then please provide it, otherwise, stop claiming it wiotout evidence.
"For the final time,...."
For the final time, it doesn't matter a tuppenny **** what all mainstream parties have come to accept - Farage if a political pariah, rejected by all the mainstream parties and their press and supporters as an extremist and a racist.
Instead of seeking the support of the politicians you consistently pour scorn on, how about addressing the facts on immigration you have been presented with over and over again, instead of ignoring them over and over again.
You might start with the contention that there is no such thing as uncontrolled immigration - all immigration is subject to controls of one form or another unless it is illegal, and nobody here has supported that, though some of us might understand it, given the predatory nature of the wealthier nations regarding the Third World.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM

keith, akeneaton teribus, I have produced evidence of FARAGES XENOPHOBIA, Now for god sake stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 08:43 AM

Steve,
You want me to "substantiate" the lying bus campaign. You want me to "substantiate" the despicable poster campaign

The bus was nothing to do with Farage. He criticised it but I will give a justification if you want.
You have failed to identify anything despicable in the poster. The image was genuine and similar scenes were shown on every news report at the time.

Jim,
I did not believe the claim linking UKIP to the far right because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of.
If it was true the other parties would seize on it and it would be a major story. UKIP would have to show it was untrue or show they had put it right.
None of that has happened.

If you want me to respond to a link, identify it.

People have consistently put up proof of Ukip's racism and extremism

No-one has.

GSS,
I produced evidence of racism earlier

I recall none. Remind us.

I have produced evidence of FARAGES XENOPHOBIA,

You have not.
Presumably you refer to that student's opinion piece that Jim first produced.
It contains no evidence of anything.

Is he out of his teens yet?
Can you produce something from someone with a little more authority and actual knowledge and experience?
Obviously not.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 08:57 AM

"I did not believe the claim linking UKIP to the far right because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of."
So what Keith I don't care whether you believe it or not - you dismisssed it because it came from a left wing publication (according to you)
Your attitude is that only vies you approve of are worthy of consideration - a disturbing way to go through life, especially as you seem happy to put up the views of a site run by a paramilitary fascist supporter.
You really don't get it, do you, you are only responded to because you post publicly - I doubt if many people care what you or anybody believe.
You ignore what is said and claim nothing has been put up.
You claim nothing has been put up and when a load of evidence is linked, you whinge that it is too much.
Why shjould abybody waste time identifying anything for you when you are patently not interested in views that don't back up your own?
You still claim nobody has put up evidence of Ukip's extremism - Dick has just done so, I have done so, Dave has done so, so have others you still claim the same - this is mindless beyond belief.
You will not accept anything that does not coincide with your pre-arrived-at views.
Answear all of them or get out of the way and let us continue the debate sensibly
A little more knowledge and experience - which particular "real historian" do you suggest??
Had as a bag of ferrets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 09:28 AM

"You have failed to identify anything despicable in the poster. The image was genuine and similar scenes were shown on every news report at the time."

Wow, what a joker. In all my years reading this forum this is the worst case of denial I've ever seen. A racist poster being blindly defended by a racist. Just what this forum needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 10:27 AM

Jim,
you dismisssed it because it came from a left wing publication (according to you)

No. I dismissed it "because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of."

It would be published by every news agency if it were true.

happy to put up the views of a site run by a paramilitary fascist supporter.

I was not happy to put up theirs or anyone's views.
They published the FACTS about some anti-Semitic tweets.
They were facts. The Labour Party themselves acted on them.

I doubt if many people care what you or anybody believe.

I would not expect them to.
I can and do substantiate what I say.
You people can only resort to personal abuse and name calling.
You have failed to substantiate a single one of your claims.

You still claim nobody has put up evidence of Ukip's extremism - Dick has just done so, I have done so, Dave has done so

None of you have.
If it were true action could and would be taken against UKIP.
It has not.

Steve,
A racist poster being blindly defended by a racist. Just what this forum needs

But, you can not say why the poster is racist.
All you can do is call me names.
You are unable to actually answer anything I have actually said.
You are unable to substantiate any single claim you have made.
You have failed to make any case at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM

I've done all that, cloth-ears. Over and over again. Your memory never seems to extend beyond the post before last.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 11:56 AM

"No. I dismissed it "because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of.""
It's extremely stupid to lie about something that you've posted on the same site
"Posted by "Black Triangle Campaign" on some extreme Left site."
The Black Triangle campaign is not extreme left, it is an anti racist site whose name is based on the Black Triangle Jewish concentration camp inmates were forced to wear.
Don't suppose you'll have the self respect to acknowledge your dishonesty though
Finished here - I'm really not qualifies to deal with somebody with your problems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 01:30 PM

I t says so in this article in The Guardian, Keith, and in many other sources that I am happy to link if you so desire. But I strongly suspect that you are about to play the 'my sources are better than your sources' game and do not really wish to get involved in that.

Considering I have tried my best to not insult your intelligence in this exchange how do you justify implying that it was a mental illness that told me where the photograph came from?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 01:47 PM

Steve,
I've done all that, cloth-ears. Over and over again.

You have done no such thing.
Prove me wrong.
Put up unequivocal substantiation now and you will shut me up for good.
What is stopping you?
Bring it on.

Put it up and show me up.
If you can't, it will prove that you have failed, ignominiously, to make a case.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 02:02 PM

Jim,
don't suppose you'll have the self respect to acknowledge your dishonesty though

No dishonesty from me.
If I was wrong about them being of the left, that is because I was being honest about never having heard of them.
As I said, "It would be published by every news agency if it were true."
It is not published by any reputable site, because it is bollocks.

Dave,
I t says so in this article in The Guardian, Keith,

What does it say Dave?
The opinion that it is racist is expressed but not explained.
The opinion that it is not racist is also expressed, and is explained by Farage.
It says that it was reported to the police "with a complaint that it incites racial hatred and breaches UK race laws."
The police must have disagreed because no action was taken.

Have I missed anything Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 02:18 PM

Yes, you have missed something, Keith. The fact that it says quite categorically A spokesperson for Getty Images confirmed that the picture had been licensed from them and was taken in Slovenia in 2015 by its staff photographer Jeff Mitchell. "It is always uncomfortable when an objective news photograph is used to deliver any political message or subjective agenda. However, the image in question has been licensed legitimately," they said. and that it is, as I said, a picture of refugees on the Croatia/Slovenia border.

Now, why would you say it was voices in my head that told me that?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM

"If I was wrong about them being of the left, that is because I was being honest about never having heard of them.!"
Feckin' mad - everything you don't know about must be from the Left
Section him someone
You are a liar Keith - pure and simple
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 04:08 PM

Oh, and BTW, how many of the racist statements you say have been made by members of the Labour party have had any police action taken?

Just out of interest.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 07:16 PM

None as I'm sure you know Dave
How could there have been if nobody knows what they are?
Bedtime thought
This has to stop - if we persist in pandering to this mindlessness, not only will we have allowed the (I am now sure, deliberate) wrecking of another thread but we might as well forget the BS section altogether.
It's not the first time Keith has adopted this stonewalling tactic and driven a discussion into the point of insanity this one has now reached and, I am convinced his determination to win something will prompt him to do it again whenever he feels like it.
I believe there is more to be said on this subject but, if no-one feels like pursuing it, for crying out loud let's leave him at it.
The resignation of Britain's ambassador made it clear that May's message is "I'm in charge and I haven't a clue where to go now and there is nobody around to tell me"
What happens now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 08:07 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 11:56 AM

"No. I dismissed it "because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of.""
It's extremely stupid to lie about something that you've posted on the same site
"Posted by "Black Triangle Campaign" on some extreme Left site."
The Black Triangle campaign is not extreme left, it is an anti racist site whose name is based on the Black Triangle Jewish concentration camp inmates were forced to wear.
I thought the Jews were required to wear a yellow Star of David. According to the Black triangle's own site Black Triangle "The Nazis forced people with mental and other disabilities to wear black triangles in the extermination camps during the Holocaust. The generic classification they used was "Arbeitsscheu" – literally "Workshy". This term is also the one most favoured in our right-wing tabloid press to described incapacity and disability benefit claimants today."
I hope you're not suggesting that the Jews had mental disabilities!

Apologies for adding some degree of truth to the discussion. I know you slurred me last time I did so. But, what the hell. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 02:50 AM

I know, Jim, but as someone with a better command of language than me once said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil was that good men should do nothing."

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 04:13 AM

You know, most of us can tell whether certain people have integrity or seem like the type of folks we'd like to know, and in daily life we listen to this inner voice of our instinct when dealing with people; it's why we are wary of some people and why they make us feel uncomfortable in their presence. UKIP, the senior tories and the Trump cohort fit s category. They do not seem like nice folk at all.

Farage is a case in point. He stood in front of a poster that was virtually identical to a shot from one of Joseph Goebbels anti-Semitic propaganda films, and no person with an ounce of common decency would do this, but Farage didn't care and did it anyway (it's doubtful the significance of this image was lost on him, he's blessed with more cunning than his blokey persona conveys). This lack of concern for basic moral values is consistent with other senior kippers and tories. Folk like Neil Hamilton, Paul Nuttall and Douglas Carswell all claim to be kippers but in fact occupy their own individual political spheres, and not one of them comes across as trustworty or even pleasant. Boris is a habitual liar and opportunist, IDS and Liam Fox see Brexit as an opportunity to make a mark in political careers most people had consigned to history.

We get a gut feeling about people and in the case of the modern alt-right that feeling is overwhelming; these are not pleasant folk and are not to be trusted in the long run. Farage, Trump and many of the current slew of senior right wingers provoke these feelings amongst people and the supporters of these folk need to understand this: we don't trust them, don't like their moral and ethical ambiguity and are not the sort of folk we would sit down for a pint with in the pub.

They're not nice folk, and we don't want them representing us. Why should we line up behind them? They are for themselves, not for decent, honest people.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 04:39 AM

"I hope you're not suggesting that the Jews had mental disabilities!"
Where on earth did that come from - of course I am not and anybody who has read any off my posts on the subject would never suggest such a thing
The Nazis forced anybody they deemed unfit to live in their society to wear identification insignia.
I don't include people with mental disabilities unfit to live anywhere - do you?
I have to say, I didn't realise that the Black triangle was confined to those with mental disabilities - you live and learn.
The point I was making about the group Keith rejected because it is LEFT WING, isn't - it is basically anti racist, but I have little doubt that it opposes other types of prejudice and persecution, this sort of organisation tends to.
Stu sums my feeling up perfectly about Ukip
They have let the mask slip occasionally, but they have avoided the pitfalls that B.N.P. fell into by being openly racist in order to gain a degree of respectability, but they are two sides of the one coin - the mask-slips have only confirmed what is obvious.
They are a party based on Xenophobia, with no policy on any other aspect of British life
As far as Brexit is concerned, they played to the basic fears and uncertainties of people and it payed off for them.
I fear that the populism they adopted will become a common feature of future elections - it happened in the U.S. and in Italy and there is a possibility that it could start to happen in Europe and destroy anything that the E.U. produced.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:15 AM

Dave,

Now, why would you say it was voices in my head that told me that?

I would not, because non of that was ever disputed Dave.
There is nothing there to object to.

Jim,
Feckin' mad - everything you don't know about must be from the Left
The significant fact is that they are obscure and unknown.
If the story was true it would be on all the news sites.

Stu, we all have gut feelings and instincts, but they have no place in a rational discussion.
UKIP politics and ours may be incompatible, and they may give rise to uncomfortable feelings, but it does not make them "loathsome," "racist," "xenophobic," "repulsive" or any of the other silly names thrown about here with no actual knowledge or facts to back them.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:25 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 12:12 PM

What is the significance? Are you even sure of the fact?

1. Whatever you deem it to be, Keith.
2. Yes.

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM

...
Dave,
1. Whatever you deem it to be, Keith.

That would be none then Dave. How about you?

2. Yes.

How are you sure Dave? Voices?

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:15 AM

Dave,

Now, why would you say it was voices in my head that told me that?

I would not, because non of that was ever disputed Dave.
There is nothing there to object to.

Up there in black and white, Keith. You suggest it was 'voices' that told me it was true. Now, once again I ask, why would you suggest it was voices that told me?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:44 AM

Well Stu's post summed up very well why there are millions of decent, hard-working, working class people who would rather have their throats cut than even contemplate ever voting Tory or UKIP. It doesn't matter a fig whether "the Tories run the economy more efficiently" (they don't as it happens and never have done), cut taxes, are tougher on the things you might want a government to be tougher on (it doesn't work when they get tough anyway). They are Tories because they believe in enterprise that is exploitative of ordinary people in the name of profit and because they don't care much for inconveniences such as sick and disabled people, the poor and the unemployed. They do care quite a lot for numero uno's interests. So I think posts like his have an important place in debate, which is damn sight more than can be said for some of your lopsided, stonewalling efforts.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:56 AM

"but they have no place in a rational discussion."

Really? How do you work that out? We live our very lives by using instinct and experience to guide us. We have all known people that seem to


"but it does not make them "loathsome," "racist," "xenophobic," "repulsive" or any of the other silly names thrown about here with no actual knowledge or facts to back them."

In the case of "loathsome" and "repulsive" then it certainly does, from a personal point of view. As for being "racist" and "xenophobic", then history has given us the warning signs and we must be wary of demagogues promising to return to out former glory.

The Mirror covered the story here, with screenshots.

The demonisation of scientists and other "experts" by the alt-right is the thin end of the wedge, a tactic straight out of the authoritarian handbook. Artists of all disciplines, free thinkers, intellectuals, writers, journalists and musicians are all feeling the heat from the rise of the right in the UK and the US. Take that with the descriptions by alt-right commentators and Prime Minsters of refugees as "a swarm", a "bunch of migrants", "cockroaches" and any other number of dehumanising slurs and it's not hard to see which way the wind is blowing.

It's perfectly acceptable to suggest that the feeling that someone is unpleasant is a reason for not kowtowing to their line of thought or political persuasion. These feelings seem to be correct; I see nothing in the conduct of Farage, Nuttall or their new Messiah Trump that makes me think these people are worthy of giving my allegiance or backing to.

I'm interested in fundamental truth and whilst it would be fair to say many politicians avoid these truths, the likes of Farage et al actively subvert and obfuscate facts for their own ends. These people are unethical, amoral and narcissistic demagogues that lie and deceive because it's their own views are too unpalatable to be aired without being obscured by rhetoric.

We are a better society than this, we can find better leaders who aren't in thrall to the markets above everything else and who don't sow division to strengthen their own position or demonise the less fortunate and who eschew truth for lies.

I won't stand alongside these people who don't value progress and compassion and what is best about the human spirit, about our creativity and curiosity. I've got 6 million reasons to reject them and their vile politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:23 AM

Social "progress"(I take it you mean "progressive" politics) and compassion don't fund the NHS, look after the old people or those left behind by globalisation.
We live in a Capitalist society and in such a society we require wealth producers......that is the plain truth.
To get the wealth producers to invest here we need a low tax economy which permits profit taking. If we do not provide these things the economy fails, we borrow money, we print money until we attain third world status.
Capitalism does not run on compassion or "progressive" social policies, it runs on profit and when it can no longer work efficiently it moves on.

Your choice is not between conservatives and "progressives" it is a choice between systems and between realistic lifestyles.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:29 AM

"I hope you're not suggesting that the Jews had mental disabilities!"
Where on earth did that come from
That came from your claim that based on the Black Triangle Jewish concentration camp inmates were forced to wear.

I don't include people with mental disabilities unfit to live anywhere - do you?
No, I don't. But I haven't posted anything that could possibly be taken as suggesting that I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:43 AM

I have no intention of diverting this thread for a nonsensical claim Nigel - if you believe I think Jews are mentally deficient, say so, if not, stop it.
"
To get the wealth producers to invest"
The peeople who produce the wealth in society are those who work, not those who provide investment.
Without the skills and knowledge of the producers of goods and services, society would grind to a halt tomorrow
Without investment, society would have to change radically, but we really would manage.
One of the greatest evils of our society is that it is geared to the wealthy at the cost of the producers - proof of this is to be found in the fact that the largest percentage of Britain's imports is finance.
Please don't feed Keith's trollism Dave, we can get by without it just as well as we can manage without investors - it just needs a bit of radical change on this forum.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:00 AM

Someone has to manage the investment of all resources, Jim, and that lies at the heart of the science of economics. Investing capital is just a methodology of moving the ownership of one resource to someone or something else and that, at present, is done using the concept of money. Unless that was abolished we will always be reliant on capital investment and, just at the moment, I cannot see a viable alternative to the use of money. I feel it is the unregulated use of capital and making of too much money simply by investing that needs more consideration and there does seem to be a movement of responsible and ethical entrepreneurs. I could be wrong of course but maybe the Tory party making the right noises at least is an indication that they are beginning to realise this. Hence the thread.

As to the other topic, I was just defending myself from the suggestion that I had made something up or, even worse, was hearing voices that told me things!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:06 AM

But you promote and protect this system from change. You wish to see living standards rise for ever. That is impossible under any system, and this particular system is not inclined to look after those who are deemed unprofitable?

We are going to have to accept that we cannot do exactly as we please in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:14 AM

Stu.,
Really? How do you work that out?

In reasoned debate, how you feel is of no significance.
If your feeling is not based on any actual fact or knowledge, then it is just a whim. A preconception.

An opinion that can not be supported has no significance to anyone else.

A debate is not, "Yes he is." "No he is not."

It should be, "I believe he is because..."

None of those denigrating Farage and UKIP have been able to do that.
Just unsupported claims and opinions based on nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:18 AM

Dave,
You suggest it was 'voices' that told me it was true.

The relevant exchange was,

"Are you even sure of the fact?"

"2. Yes."

"How are you sure Dave? Voices?"


I can not remember what "the fact" was now. Can you? Does it matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:21 AM

"Your choice is not between conservatives and "progressives" it is a choice between systems and between realistic lifestyles."

I don't agree, the choice isn't between absolutes and this is why Farage and Trump need to be rejected; they seek to impose authoritarianism on our society in such a way they and their billionaire mates continue to profit massively from the oppression of wages and worker's rights across the globe. They aren't interested in paying us proper wages to do the jobs eastern europeans won't be able to do from now on but have accepted low pay for, they'll force us to do them for the same money.

Capitalism needs regulation as it is utterly incapable of self-regulating itself. Contrary to the bleats of free-marketeers (inc. brexiteers), wealth does not trickle down and will not act with any degree of social responsibility to the society it relies on to exist and this is it's failure.

This is why the divisiveness of Farage etc is so damaging; it allows the free market to exploit the weakest and least represented people.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:23 AM

Yes I can - That the poster was based on a picture of refugees on the border between Croatia and Slovenia in 2015. The fact itself has little bearing on the fact that you suggested it was 'voices' that had told me it was. You have not yet explained why you would suggest such a thing let alone apologised.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM

Dave,
That the poster was based on a picture of refugees on the border between Croatia and Slovenia in 2015. The fact itself has little bearing on the fact that you suggested it was 'voices' that had told me it was.

That could not have been the fact.
You could have got that fact from me! I had already posted,

07 Jan 17 - 05:01 AM

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015,

What is your objection?

What would you like to be linked to exactly - the racist poster, the rants about immigrants,

The poster was of non European migrants crossing EU borders, which was a legitimate issue and not racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:38 AM

Smoke and mirrors, Keith. I posted a fact. You suggested I had some sort of mental issue. It is there for all to see.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:52 AM

"Someone has to manage the investment of all resources, Jim,"
An elected and answerable government can do this as well as those whose entire reason for being their is self interest.
It began to happen in 1945 and petered out when the politicians and Trades Union leaders were bought into the system.
You don't put a chocoholic in charge of quality control of a chocolate factory.
"You wish to see living standards rise for ever."
It has never been like that, it is a matter of stopping living standards falling, as they are at present to an incredible degree across the board - go look at the rising gap between haves and have nots.
Jim Carrill

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:52 AM

Capitalism cannot be regulated. The more you try to regulate financial aspiration the more quickly it fails.
It is bound to fail eventually even in booming economies as lifestyles and living standards make financial aspiration unsustainable, but it fails more quickly with heavy regulation.
"Boom and Bust" are endemic to the system

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM

BTW Keith - The first mention of what the picture was was by me on 06 Jan 17 - 12:08 PM. Your mention of it on the 7th was in direct response to that. Something else that everyone else can see.

07 Jan 17 - 05:01 AM

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015,

What is your objection?

I am not at all sure why you chose to post

What would you like to be linked to exactly - the racist poster, the rants about immigrants

That is not something I have ever mentioned. I think you may be getting two things confused here.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 08:01 AM

Government control of resources has failed in the past, Jim. The fall of the eastern bloc communist states has attested to that. There has to be a compromise where we all work together. Whether that is the European model of having worker representatives on the controlling board of corporations is yet to be seen but I think that is a good move.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 08:43 AM

"Government control of resources has failed in the past, Jim"
Only because the people in charge of them bought into the system Dave
Even the short time they were experimented with brought enormous life-changing benefits to our lives - all we have left now is a still unique health service.
Ake's attitude is typical "Capitalism cannot be regulated."
Unbridled capitalism has failed utterly - if it cannot be regulated, it will destroy society utterly - it is there to provide wealth for the wealthy and we have been made part of that objective.
Those of us who are of no benefit to the objective are discarded - all the safeguards that were fought for over the centuries have been removed - a voice in our workplaces, a right to notice should our jobs disappear, security of tenure... even our health service is under attack.
Take a look at Trump's plans for the future, health, global warming, civil rights.... and you have what we are in line for.
We change society or we end up with Fascism, where we have not even the pretence of a say that we have now.
One of the interesting terms that has sprung up here recently is "Vulture Capitalism' based around Goldman Sachs and the like buying up huge swathes of rented property, evicting the tenants and "gentrifying the accommodation".
Within a year Ireland is experiencing a homelessness crisis.
Capitalism is changing, so must those who live under it - simple as that
For all her warm words, Theresa May doesn't speak for those changes, or any change - she is the Iron Lady in velvet gloves which will fall off when she no longer has use for them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 08:56 AM

I agree entirely Jim. Unbridled capitalism has failed utterly. But would you not agree that unbridled communism suffered the same fate? Surely there must be a happy medium somewhere that benefits everyone. Whether that is putting a bridle on either capitalism or communism or whether the route lies elsewhere is yet to be seen and is an interesting topic. Far more interesting than most of the crap that has been posted so far on this thread anyway ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:18 AM

"But would you not agree that unbridled communism suffered the same fate? "
What passed for Communism did, but only because it was unregulated and became beyond the control of the people.
Making any system of government answerable seems to be a solution.
In the meantime, we have to live under what we have and that depends on getting politicians we can trust
Corbyn is making the right noises, and the amount of hatred from the right he has generated (both on and off Mudcat) can only be a sign that he's coming from the right place
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:35 AM

D the G. Capitalism is doomed to failure as is socialism and communism.
One road leads to concentrated wealth and social division, the other to eventual bankruptcy. Corporation exist purely to generate profit, they cannot have any morality. Within all these there must be elements to be experimented with that could be successful.
Continual rape of resources for ever greater profits benefits no one and degrades both individuals and the environment-yet what else is production based on?(apart from carpenters and brickies) These resources are also finite (Britain is riddled with disused mine workings)
The existing economic paradigm is well and truly busted. What can replace it? Kropotkin's idealistic view of worker run enterprises and self governing communities will not work-it is too simplistic.
Perhaps eradicating globalism and making production more local. In this way both the sins and benefits can be clearly discerned, and logical decisions made. This could not possibly occur until corporations were made subject to moral laws as well as market forces.(I wish anyone luck trying to pursue that idea.) There are many other avenues that could be followed but change will not be easy.
The existing system is already stressed politically and economically. and this is against a background of uncontrolled urban growth, exploding populations and climate change adding yet more difficulties to an already complex situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:37 AM

I think that is the crux of the matter - Beyond the control of the people. If the government is beyond the control of the people and business is beyond control of the government then we we always be on a hiding to nothing! Regulation of business and government is needed for it to work fairly for all but then of course we get the eternal question; who regulates the regulators? It is this type of riddle that has puzzled economists and politicians for years. They seem to have no real answers but tell the people that they have!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:44 AM

I don't see how eradicating globalism could help, Iains. The world's resources are global and should be managed for everyone. Localisation of resource would result in the resource rich areas growing prosperous while those lacking will starve. If you have a way round that I would be interested to hear it.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:55 AM

Communism has never been more than a theory, totally untested
Socialism to some has brought benefits whenever it has been tried.
What is a workable alternative?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 10:06 AM

Perhaps globalism was the wrong term. It is more a case of multinational companies creating the economic face of globalism. They have no national allegiance by definition. Unless tightly controlled they create environmental damage in their extractive role. They export production to the lowest cost base, employ armies of accountants to avoid taxation. Pursuit of profit is paramount no matter what the social cost. Obviously world trade must occur but the adopted methods of today of stateless economies of scale come with a huge social cost that is apparently the responsibility of no-one. Again it comes down to the legal entity of a corporation having no responsibilities other than pursuit of profit apart from local legislation at origin and destination that often seems woefully inadaquate.
It seems to me this system must inevitably self destruct at some point because pursuit of minimum cost must inevitably impoverish the market at some future point.