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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Noreen Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM I could. And you could have refrained from making negative assumptions and speculating based on no evidence. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Noreen Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:24 PM And do you really think that loony anonymous UKIP troll (and presumably others in the same vein that were deleted) is anything to do with the Morris world? Come on. Ignore the trolls. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:31 PM I did... 🙄 .. within reason.. Ps.. it's in my DNA to constantly test and challenge even my own lapses into negative assumptions and speculations.. That's the benefit of a high quality pre thatcherite state funded education..😎 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:40 PM "And do you really think that loony anonymous UKIP troll (and presumably others in the same vein that were deleted) is anything to do with the Morris world? Come on." well.... it's not entirely beyond the realms of realistic conjecture.. surely you can maybe consider that...??? we can all surround ourselves with really 'nice' people.. but who knows what really lurks in the mind of any individual....??? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:17 PM Maybe best to stop digging punkfolkrocker. There are no "vile provocative comments rom xenophobic morris supporters" for a new reader to find and you have to appeal to "not entirely beyond the realms of realistic conjecture" to link even a choice from your private hoard to any dancers. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Noreen Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:23 PM I have read enough "comment" threads on YouTube, MailOnline etc. relating to this subject to recognise the hallmarks of a UKIP troll, unfortunately- as I'm sure you have. Honestly, I would be truly amazed if anyone closely associated with the Morris expressed themselves in those terms. Get yourself out and talk to some! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:47 PM Noreen - I like morris - I don't participate - but I respect it... However a simple google of, say for example, "b p folk music"[you know where to put the 'n'] stirs up so many links of various degrees of truth and reality, that morris can not remain so oblivious to how the trad dance art relates to modern urban citizens. The rights or wrongs become secondary to the general 'uninformed' public perception of what black face morris looks like and might be. This is the cultural context that morris is judged within and by, however unjustly, and puts the onus on morris to present & communicate it's case more thoughtfully and sensitively.... ..or not.. who am I to impose my will on anyone...???? Morris survives or withers by it's own efforts... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:51 PM GUEST - whatever you are trying to manipulate, or provoke me into saying... save it for another day... it's time for bangers and pizza.. more good hot trad British grub... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Jan 17 - 02:31 PM GUEST - a few spare minutes whilst cooking... The nature of mudcat forum is I can't know if you are the real deal you present yourself as, or a piss taking wind up merchant...??? Either way - don't really matter - i'll just take your words at face value... you appeal to my skewed sense of humour.. and provide material of a certain mindset to respond to as relevant to the topic of discussion.. .. and if and when I can be arsed.... 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: David Carter (UK) Date: 24 Jan 17 - 03:04 PM Morris dancers cannot be oblivious to the connotations of blackface. I grew up in the 1960s, and we watched George Mitchell's Black and White Minstrel show. This drew heavily on US minstrel tradition. It was very, very popular. It was only in the very late 1960s that it began to be seen as offensive, but I am astonished to read that the BBC continued to broadcast it until 1978, and the show toured until 1992. Joe, if you are reading this, when did blackface become unacceptable in the USA? I would think that it would have been a lot earlier, I may be wrong. Now most Morris dancers, sadly, are my age or even older. They cannot be unaware of the history and the connotations. Maybe they think that this isn't as important as their own traditions, leaving aside whether their own traditions have deep roots in medieval racism, which they don't actually know, even if they say they do. And whilst the vast majority of Morris dancers will not intend to cause offence, and will have no truck with the likes of the BNP, the world today is such that in any activity there will be one or two who do. And I have no idea, and I suspect neither does either pfr or Noreen, whether the GUEST who posted on 11 Jan 17 at 07:31pm was anything to do with Morris or not. It is that post which has convinced me that Morris sides should not now use blackface. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Noreen Date: 24 Jan 17 - 03:48 PM Well done David Carter: if what you say is true, that anonymous divisive troll has now won. You mention your age. Unlike you, younger people have no knowledge of the B&W minstrels and related blackface mimicry. They don't carry this baggage around with them as those of previous generations do. You are in effect perpetuating the memory by discussing it at all. It has absolutely no connection with the border morris of today, and it upsets us when others unjustly put the burden of this connection on us. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Noreen Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:01 PM What I originally looked in here to post some hours ago, was the news that a Gloucestershire Morris Man has had a reply to his email on this matter to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I'm not typing out the whole letter, but the relevant part says: as...Sajid Javid made clear, there are no racial connotations linked with this tradition. I am not of course saying that because we have government support it solves everything, but it is very nice to think that those in power have our backs on this when we have previously been threatened with abuse, ostracism and legal action. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:05 PM Noreen - since the early 80s Media studies / communication studies / ideology studies etc have filtered down from the Polys and Unis into comprehensive schools, and even primary schools... Young kids, urban and provincial, should be well aware of the B&W Minstrels as case study material.. As I said earlier in this thread.. morris can no longer exist in a head in the sand state of naivety and denial... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:15 PM @punkfolkrocker. I am the same GUEST who said "There have always been multicultural societies where people avoid day-to-day conflict through a combination of tolerance, courtesy (maybe of a formal kind) and sensitivity to others." Sensitivity to others includes explaining your traditions to others when you recognise that they do not understand. It could also include changing your behaviour when people misunderstand it - but that doesn't do much for tradition or multiculturalism. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Pariah Date: 24 Jan 17 - 09:21 PM Unlike you, younger people have no knowledge of the B&W minstrels and related blackface mimicry. If indeed they don't have said knowledge (of which I'm by no means convinced), they certainly should, and its past time they were properly educated. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jan 17 - 12:22 AM Noreen - Surely, we - individuals and social groups - cannot just turn our backs to problems that might affect us.. whether they be of our own or others making; deny they exist, and hope they'll go away.. ??? .. rationalize our failings, whilst attacking and denigrating anyone who brings those problems to our unwilling attention...?????? ... Oh.. what..we can ??? .. and we do...all the time..??? ok.. that's life.. so it goes..... 😞 Morris on...... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:31 AM David, I'd say that by the mid-1980s, blackface was unacceptable in American entertainment, except in very specific situations where it was needed for historical purposes. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: David Carter (UK) Date: 25 Jan 17 - 04:21 AM Sajid Javed, as usual, is running his mouth when he doesn't know the answers. Nobody knows whether that tradition had any racial connotations. Look at the Wikipedia entry, and follow some of the links, people who know or knew far more about this than you, I, or Sajid Javed, disagree on this. Same with Zwarte Piet, although the suggestion that he is going to carry the naughty children off to his home in Spain is a bit of a clue, don't you think. No I am not a Morris dancer, I do know Morris dancers, not ones who use blackface though. But I did once see the Witchmen. They present themselves as pagan, they used blackface then but I don't know whether they still do. Skilled dancers, reasonable musicians, but very, very disturbing. Knowing how it affects some people I would not now watch a blackface side. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Jan 17 - 04:44 AM A bit of light relief on the subject of politicians on Morris dance. Dance idiot, dance! On YouTube I'll let you figure out who they are singing about. :D tG |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:07 AM Same with Zwarte Piet, although the suggestion that he is going to carry the naughty children off to his home in Spain is a bit of a clue, don't you think. Zwarte Piet is usually explained either as a Moorish 'servant' (slave, essentially, one would presume) or blackened by soot from climbing through chimneys to enter houses. The longstanding practice of having him speak in broken/child like language and made up perceived mock 'black' or (later) surinam accents is a bit of a give away when it comes to racial/racist roots. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:39 AM David Carter, about the Witchmen: we've watched them many many times. And yes, they still black up. My black husband has had his photo taken loads of times with them, arms around each other in an extremely friendly way. A plump black lady from Ghana was watching them at Sheringham quite recently and she stood next to us. She was enchanted and thought they were wonderful. I agree they're scary, which I adore. They're pagan and that's why they chose black and amber as their colours. They grunt and growl, and wave their fists at each other in the dance, it's brilliant. There's absolutely NOTHING parodying Africans about their dancing. Nothing. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM Senoufou - they do sound good to experience.. did you see the photo gallery of European trad folk disguise I linked to in an earlier post in this thread...??? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 17 - 09:39 AM Yes pfr I did, and aren't they excellent? Very sinister and scary. Actually some Ivory Coast ethnic traditions have a straw man type of a thing where the body is covered in leaves/straw and the man inside wears a special mask (white in colour actually!!), and he 'becomes' a dangerous spirit. My husband was delighted with the Straw Bear at Whittlesea, as he could relate to the idea very easily. Being typically African, he was quite scared of it, and seemed to forget it was just a man. He kept his distance, as he didn't want the evil magic to get onto him. I reckon the Witchmen engender the same reaction in me, and this must go back a long, long way into our cultural history. (Long before any 'Minstrelsy' rubbish!) |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 25 Jan 17 - 09:40 AM That was me by the way. Forgot I'd left the box blank! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jan 17 - 09:45 AM here's the link again if anyone else is interested... http://www.boredpanda.com/wilder-mann-charles-freger/ |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Pariah Date: 25 Jan 17 - 10:14 AM Senoufou, do you think its possible that your husband, growing up as he did in Africa and not subjected to discrimination because of his color, not having experience of the racism prevalent in the western world - the minstrel shows, blacked-up white actors on stage, in movies and on early television, "ni**er jokes", lynching, Jim Crow, race riots and all the rest - is not offended whilst persons who HAVE experienced this sort of thing and/or are at least aware of it ARE offended?- be they "black", "yellow" or "brown"? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 25 Jan 17 - 10:36 AM Maybe YOU should make him aware of it, prick |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Guest Date: 25 Jan 17 - 11:19 AM E. C. Cawte made a comprehensive listing of accounts of border morris in his article "The morris dance in Herefordshire, Shropshire and Worcestershire". The earliest reference to morris is from 1584, the earliest account of dancing dates from the early 17th century, the first mention of black faces is from the 1870s (see the commentary in the Morris Ring's survey of literature on blacking up for confirmation of this: www.themorrisring.org/sites/default/files/attachments/Blacking%20up--a%20literature%20survey--Strudwick.pdf). Older than many of us but not quite as ancient as some people seem to believe. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 25 Jan 17 - 11:45 AM For every black person who is not offended, there is one that is and probably twice that number of white people taking offence on behalf of black people. I don't think blackface Border has anything to do with Minstrelsy, which a few here seem to hang everything on, nor do I think those that apply Blackface are inherently or actually racist. Nor do I think that the huge number of Border sides have any clue as to the history of Blackface beyond the advent of the Shropshire Bedlams in 1975 - a side that has moved on from Blackface. However, if you perform in multi-cultural Britain blacked-up you need to be aware of cultural sensibilities and sensitivities. You might not care about that but others might not care about your "tradition". |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jan 17 - 12:02 PM Guest Pariah, that's a very interesting point. My husband's region of origin has a certain population of white people (mostly French) but they are relatively well-off and live in the wealthy areas of the city. From his accounts they rather despise the black people they once colonised, but there is no overt racism. He has had (as you suggest) no experience of Western racist expression. And has had no racism directed at him in all the years he's lived here in UK, I'm happy to say. But if the Border Morris folk had an ounce of racist feeling in them, they'd hardly invite him to dance with them, grab him for photos and recognise him from one event to another like a long-lost friend. I realise that this might be due to a rather patronising attitude, but I very much doubt it. However, I see your point that a British-born black person might feel very differently. I don't know any, as our area is devoid of any black residents. They might find the sight of a blacked-up dancer evokes memories of minstrels, unkind parody and so on. I'm afraid I can't say. But if so, wouldn't they stridently object to it nationally, in large numbers, and lobby the authorities to ban it? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Guest Date: 25 Jan 17 - 12:19 PM That blackface minstrelsy had some influence some influence on border morris is beyond doubt. The words in the final part of the Broseley Morris Tune collected by E. C. Cawte from Annie Lloyd make this clear(Cawte, The morris dance in Herefordshire, Shropshire and Worcestershire, p. 201): There was a little nigger, and he grew no bigger so they put him in the Wild West Show. He tumbled through the window and he broke his little finger, And he couldn't play the old banjo. The oral testimony from original border morris dancers collected by Gordon Ashman and published in his article Custom in Conflict confirms the influence of minstrelsy. The only question is how big an influence it was. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 17 - 12:35 PM Well, Morris-ey, I'd venture to suggest that this is not a discussion between people who are offended vs not offended. There are plenty of people who may come out against blacking up whilst not actually feeling offended by it. It's about having a rational, measured discussion that should be as objective as possible. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Jan 17 - 01:33 PM My friends Peter and Alison travel the world to follow traditions and I was sure they once mentioned a whiteface tradition in the Caribbean. Took me a while to find but here it is! I think they are masks though and, like border Morris, I see no evidence of parody. Thought it was interesting anyway. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 25 Jan 17 - 01:58 PM very interesting ,logically that means its ok for border morris dancers to wear black masks, but not black on their faces, every minute its getting curiouser and curiouser |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 25 Jan 17 - 02:14 PM Well, Steve Shaw I'd be obliged if you could point out where my comment is not "rational, measured", and "as objective as possible". Then you can put forward your commentry that meets your own high standards. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Senoufou Date: 25 Jan 17 - 02:17 PM Ah! The Jumbee or Gumbee tradition in the Caribbean is basically Nigerian in origin. But these type of presentations are found in many W African countries. The Baule (one of the Ivory Coast peoples) have a tall character on stilts with a white face mask, representing an evil being. It's very interesting to me to trace the cultures of the slave ancestors of the present-day Caribbean islands. And it's touching that those poor souls tried to keep alive their culture and language in spite of all they'd suffered. I can't see the difference between face-painting and face-masks to be honest. It's obviously merely an attempt at role-changing and disguise, which is as old as humankind itself. I don't think racial parody is involved, just 'theatre' and a bit of mystery. This thread is developing into such an interesting exploration isn't it? Mudcat at its best! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 17 - 02:49 PM Here's what you said, Morris-ey: "For every black person who is not offended, there is one that is and probably twice that number of white people taking offence on behalf of black people." You are accusing white people of taking offence on behalf of black people, in other words going all sanctimonious and politically-correct, patronising even. Well I think it's perfectly valid for white people to make measured objections to blacking up without risking being accused of taking offence on behalf of black people. I regard your blanket and unqualified characterisation of white objectors as unfair. I was saying that plenty of people,black or white, may object to the practice of blacking up without actually taking offence, instead taking a reasoned and objective stance. You weren't allowing for that. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:29 PM Blacking-up, making morris morish moorish since 1790. Brought to you by the wonderful folks of England, oh wait, that's right they decided to rediscover their pagan roots and changed it to Britain, darn it I meant to say Great Britain, opps, sorry, they changed it again, United Kingdom (so confusing to me, I'm American). |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:31 PM Is English your first language? I ask because you seem to have misunderstood. What you have quoted is a linguistic device which suggests that because some black people are not offended does not mean that all black people are not offended. It also suggests that some white people assume offence on behalf of others and I doubt you can disagree with the truth of that. Where you infer a "blanket and unqualified characterisation" is in your mind not in my comment. I accept absolutely that many people will not be offended by Blackface Border, I am not offended, but many might well be and it is something that such Border teams would be well advised to consider. More generally, I am not big on this causing offence thing. People take offence as they will. Somethings offend me that are not even against any law and even if they were, I would not pursue it. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:37 PM logically that means its ok for border morris dancers to wear black masks, but not black on their faces They are not wearing masks though are they, Dick? We have no idea if anyone would take offense at them wearing black masks because they do not do it. The point is that anything done, even if done with the most innocent of intentions, can cause offense and, if it can it most likely will at some point. No one is saying don't do it. Just be aware of the possible repercussions. Like anything really! DtG |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:40 PM Is English your first language? ... I am not big on this causing offence thing. I sincerely hope that was intended to be ironic. Or are you not big on irony either? :D tG |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:50 PM GUEST,pauperback - errrrrrmmm...??? Yeah.... it's so cool to see those American morris sides in their white robes and pointy hats... 😬 ..yeah.. i know.. very bad taste.. very non PC gone mad... but we all have the potential in us....... ... but wait what right have i to get all sanctimonious about cross Atlantic folk traditions.. ..and I don't really get how you can get to call anyone making a serious relevant point about british socio/culture a prick... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 25 Jan 17 - 04:00 PM Lol You cracker me up pfr |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 17 - 05:12 PM If I seem to have misunderstood, Morris-ey, then I suggest you're not making yourself clear. I'll come clean. My OPINION is that Morris dancers should not black up. Now do you think that I am taking offence on behalf of black people? That's what you said about people like me. If English is YOUR first language, you may choose to clarify, carefully I suggest. As I said, people with the same opinion as mine may simply be taking a view (not "taking offence") based on what we know of the practice, the history of the practice and of modern-day sensibilities. The sentence of yours I took issue with is extremely unwelcome to people like me, who may find the attitude conveyed by it to be insulting. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,pauperback Date: 25 Jan 17 - 06:02 PM Hey folkpunkrocker - come what may rest assured we'll always have your back. Your where we came from, bro. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 25 Jan 17 - 06:34 PM Steve You have created a strawman and expect me to defend something I did not say? I have made myself clear several times on this thread. If you choose to misinterpret and misrepresent what I have said then carry on, but don't expect me to join your game. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 17 - 07:10 PM This is a topic in which we either let the thread go haywire or else we express ourselves clearly and carefully, which I've tried to do. I don't play games and I don't take against people. So far, you've accused me, quite likely, at least if not me my ilk, of taking offence on behalf of black people and of playing games. Do keep piling on tbe insults. You'll be doing my work for me. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jan 17 - 07:12 PM At this stage in the thread I'm just getting confused about who is falling out with who over what and trying to remember who I offended, how, why, and who gives a f@ck...??? anyway my feet hurt, my knees are aching, and my family is driving me mental... But despite all that.. here's a jolly link to add some extra contextual material for debate.... errrmmm... ??? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 25 Jan 17 - 07:29 PM .. and ... .. it's material like this the art gallery based education team i worked with back in the mid 80s would have used to stimulate debate on outreach projects with working class teenagers.... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 25 Jan 17 - 07:33 PM Good point, pfr. It's not the most apocalyptic race issue ever to hit the planet. My personal feelings about blacking up are definitely on the mild side. I just find it very odd that some or all (who knows, he didn't really say...) of us whiteys can be accused of taking offence "on behalf of" black people. Doesn't chime with me at all and I feel that it didn't need to be said. Maybe it says something about the person who said it, or maybe not... |
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