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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Andrew Wigglesworth Date: 10 Jan 17 - 07:55 PM So the "politics" of Twitter outrage and Facebook abuse have come onto the streets. Black people in Britain statistically have a lower life expectancy, are more likely to be unemployed, live in poverty or be in gaol. These things are caused by systems of economic power, privilege, and divide and rule in a capitalist society. Racism is fundamentally about power over others, especially economic power ... not Morris dancing. It's a wonderful diversion, the right-wing get to wail about "PC gone mad" and liberals get to show-boat their "outrage" without having to fundamentally examine or challenge the society they live in. The trouble with "Minstrel shows" (there were plenty of other names for them in the past which were far less pleasant), was not just the blacking up. It was the systematic strereo-typing of black people. The "mammy", the lazy bum, the stupid one etc etc. This stereo-typing came out of (mostly) US society and it reflected the racist structures of that society. The music, the actions, the stereo-types (often actually acted by black performers btw) played to the prejudices of the audience, reflected prejudices about African-Americans and rationalised those prejudices in crude forms. I think you've probably worked out what I'm going to write next ... what has this got to do with Morris dancing? In what way does Morris dancing stereo-type or caricature black people or black peoples culture? In what way does Morris dancing pander to the prejudices of the powerful against the less powerful? I go back to the shallow meaningless style of "politics" of "Twitter outrage" and the failure of any of them to actually deal with the fundamentals of racism. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: RTim Date: 10 Jan 17 - 07:54 PM Good Soldier (and like many I know who you really are!) The EFDSS have made a clear and unambiguous statement about Blackface, if you don't agree with it OK, but don't make them look bad because of your own aversion to what they do!! Tim Radford And I DON'T want to hear you answering back with some withering comment that is irrelevant to the point in question!! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 17 - 07:51 PM So the "politics" of Twitter outrage and Facebook abuse have come onto the streets. Black people in Britain statistically have a lower life expectancy, are more likely to be unemployed, live in poverty or be in gaol. These things are caused by systems of economic power, privilege, and divide and rule in a capitalist society. Racism is fundamentally about power over others, especially economic power ... not Morris dancing. It's a wonderful diversion, the right-wing get to wail about "PC gone mad" and liberals get to show-boat their "outrage" without having to fundamentally examine or challenge the society they live in. The trouble with "Minstrel shows" (there were plenty of other names for them in the past which were far less pleasant), was not just the blacking up. It was the systematic strereo-typing of black people. The "mammy", the lazy bum, the stupid one etc etc. This stereo-typing came out of (mostly) US society and it reflected the racist structures of that society. The music, the actions, the stereo-types (often actually acted by black performers btw) played to the prejudices of the audience, reflected prejudices about African-Americans and rationalised those prejudices in crude forms. I think you've probably worked out what I'm going to write next ... what has this got to do with Morris dancing? In what way does Morris dancing stereo-type or caricature black people or black peoples culture? In what way does Morris dancing pander to the prejudices of the powerful against the less powerful? I go back to the shallow meaningless style of "politics" of "Twitter outrage" and the failure of any of them to actually deal with the fundamentals of racism. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 17 - 06:10 PM meanwhile EFDSS sleeps the sleep of the dead. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: meself Date: 10 Jan 17 - 03:18 PM From what I've gathered, following these same old arguments on this forum for years - really: nothing new here - and reading the linked articles, etc., there is no definitive answer. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Jan 17 - 01:50 PM i suppose it would be nice to get a definitive answer from an expert as tp whether the black face is an important strand of the folk tradition that needs to be explained, or as Jim says, just a load of bollocks. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 17 - 01:45 PM Where are EFDSS in all this should they not showing support for Folk Dancers. EFDSS is the national folk arts development organisation for England. We are here to champion the English traditional arts – music, song, dance, storytelling, customs and traditions – as part of the rich and diverse cultural landscape of the UK. We're about preserving them, and we do that in our award winning library, the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library (VWML) named after our former president, the composer Ralph Vaughan Williams. But we're also about promoting - shouting about the richness and huge variety of art forms and wonderful people that work under this all-encompassing, very elastic term called FOLK, and providing endless opportunities for people to get involved. And we're about developing. Folk is living, breathing and constantly being re-invented; we encourage artists to be inspired by the songs and dances that have been handed down through the generations and support them in various ways to create new songs, tunes and dances. From big bands to solo singers, morris dancers to contemporary choreographers, schools to mass participation, intimate folk clubs to major concert halls – our work reaches far and wide. And we'd love you to be a part of it. Take a look around our website to find out more about our activities, or let us know what you're up to through Facebook or Twitter. Welcome to the world of folk!" Katy Spicer Chief Executive |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Jan 17 - 01:35 PM i stand corrected. folk dance is very complicated. i don't know anything about it. and to be honest when you talk to the participants - they don't seem all that interested or concerned about the whys and wherefores. i get invited to a lot of folk dance occasions but i can never work out who's doing what to whom, and where the hankies come in. and the hoops. and ribbons. and bells, sticks. it all melds into one at the wessex folk festival. it all takes place round the harbour in Weymouth. i just hope to fuck morris dancing doesn't become a magnet for political dissent. possibly violence. the atmosphere seems so pleasant at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 17 - 01:34 PM How about a Mudcat border Morris side with faces covered in Mud. Should Joe Offer be Squire?, Bagman?, or Fool?,Joe should definitely be leader. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:58 PM As simplistic and as lazy as it is for the reactionary right to condemn and dismiss everything that confounds & displeases them as loony left PC Brigade gone mad... ..it still makes me chuckle every time i see one of them resort to posting this empty headed cliche in our threads... ... daft old blinkered conservative pillocks.. Personally, I won't even consider joining the PC Brigade unless I like the look of the uniforms, and they provide xxxxl size jackets... .. and even more incentive if the PC Brigade have their own Brass Marching Band and a cool imaginative morris side...!!!??? 🙄 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:46 PM Haha Big Al, I doubt whether any self-respecting Border Morris side would be seen dead waving hankies! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:46 PM I understand that a hotel manager recently angrily evicted a whole gathering of chess convention guests who were making a lot of noise in the hotel lobby. When asked why he'd chucked 'em out, he said "If there's one thing I can't stand, it's chess nuts boasting in an open foyer." |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:28 PM i believe Eddy Murphy did white up in one movie, without generating -mass'outrage'. anyway - who the hell is talking about outrage. this is obviously some twats idea of a media happening! the idea that people just fell about in paroxysms of rage on seeing a gang of nutters armed with handkerchiefs is ridiculous. someone was tipped off and thought this nonsense up. what morris dancers get up to is about as much interest to the general public as what the British Chess Society gets up to. (have you noticed how the bastards always make the black chess pieces go second?) |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:24 PM "almost verging on" Is not good enough, unless... "Rather like" Is not good enough, unless... ... a debate up to 2016 referendum/election standards is all that is required. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 10 Jan 17 - 11:43 AM A few thoughts on Border Morris and Blackface Border: The first Border, and Blackface, I came across was Silurian from Shropshire, who had an inspired and inspiring leader who explained blackface as disguise. The second was Shropshire Bedlams who, in my opinion made Border into a spectacle that no other Morris could match. The downside was the spawning of so many of the truly shit Border (blackface or not) that we see today. Border is the most modern style of the Morris revival and the least supported by any real historic evidence. What I am absolutely sure of is that Blackface in Border, whether in its time or now, has nothing to do with Minstrelsy or Racism. The Birmingham protestors were British Asians. It does not matter whether they were black, white, Asian. Times and attitudes and moral sensibilities change. Morris must recognise this. If your "tradition" requires disguise then by all means do it, but be a bit more 21st century about it. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Pariah Date: 10 Jan 17 - 11:03 AM I've never believed that there's any such thing as PC, just common decency and sensitivity. Exactly so. Goes beyond sheer naivety.. to almost verging on deliberate arrogant willful provocation. Again, exactly so. Rather like the idiots who insist on shoving the Confederate Battle Flag in the faces of all and sundry. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 10 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM Using face paint or masks as disguise was and still is part of many street festivals and performances. Superficial anonymity is part of the fun. The paint has to be dark enough and matt enough so that the way the light falls on the face is disrupted enough to conceal the features. Woad isn't dark enough (and it is hard to get off). So maybe something closer to navy blue would be better That said, I think there is case for limiting the situations in which concealing of the face in public is acceptable - I include large dark glasses as well as and paint, masks etc. If people didn't keep going on about minstrels how many people in the UK, including non-white ones, would think of it? Most people under 50 will only have heard of the Black and White Minstrel Show as history. It's different in the USA obviously. How long do we have to keep going on about something that is gone for good. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jan 17 - 09:16 AM P C cup Brigade... ??? 😜 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:59 AM Well I did a rude and tasteless joke involving the word "tits" in the sports bra thread, so I can't possibly be a member of the PC brigade! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:55 AM [dialling tone].... Hello, you have reached the PC Brigade.. how can we help you ? Please listen to the menu and press the appropriate number to report the horrible dim mean spirited people you require us to educate and encourage to behave in a more enlightened and positive manner... We are sorry but the 'report a blackface morris side' team are very busy at the moment and you may have to wait... you are number 27 in the queue... Please hold, or try again later.. If you require emergency protests and boycotts, please wait until the end of the message and press 'zero... Thank you for calling and have a progressive day.... 😜 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:53 AM Ah, right, just looked it up and although most search results are about a pub, I do see something about a mummers play. Looks interesting. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM DavidCarter ...Derby Tup,not THE Derby horserace |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:19 AM The assailants have been described as 'Asian' - this is UK mainstream media code for 'Muslims. It isn't. It could equally well apply to a Sikh, Hindu or Parsee. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 10 Jan 17 - 07:47 AM It would be a very interesting experiment banjoman! They do in fact 'white up' in Cote d'Ivoire for some traditional dances. I think if woad or another colour were used, the Politically Correct Brigade would have the wind taken out of their sails. They'd probably feel a bit disappointed that there was no fight to be had. I've often found in life that when someone gets on their soapbox looking for an argument, and one smiles, nods calmly and agrees with them, they look a bit downhearted! |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Jan 17 - 07:24 AM All well and good, Ray, but surely we don't expect everyone who sees Morris dancers to have comprehensive knowledge of the tradition. I love ballet and go whenever I can, but I don't know anything about the technicalities of the dance or the traditions involved. Nor is my duty to know, though I'm aware that a bit of knowledge would enhance my enjoyment. Morris dancing in the street is likely to attract mostly casual passers-by who can't be expected to deeply interpret what they're seeing. And what's wrong with woad anyway. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: banjoman Date: 10 Jan 17 - 06:26 AM senoufou - how would people react if your husband and his brothers were to "White up" I think this PC business has really gone too far and some element of common sense is now needed urgently. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: David Carter (UK) Date: 10 Jan 17 - 05:12 AM Not sure about the Derby GSS, but there are a good number of people who would like to see the Grand National stopped because it is cruel to horses (too many of whom have died in the race recently). padgett: that it is to do with disguise is a theory, but it isn't clear. Have a look at the Wikipedia page on Border Morris. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,padgett Date: 10 Jan 17 - 04:29 AM Surely the tradition of blacking up was to do with being in disguise ~ from which the word geezer comes ~ whilst cadging drinks and money from all and sundry and flirting with the ladies ~ if people are offended they are lacking in knowledge of the tradition ~ not the same as black and white minstrels by a good bit The crowds apart from the pc brigade represented by the offended woman (god 'elp us with pc people!) would probably be usual sort of football "fans" out for a Sunday drink ~ owt for a laugh" against this "dancers" Ray |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 17 - 03:53 AM "Wonder how we would raect to an Asian comic act showing a stereotype flat-capped Englishman staggering home from the boozer and kicking the shit out of his wife and kids - not well, I suspect" It depends how well the comic act was performed, i might laugh i might be bored. There is absolutely no need for morris dancers to be attacked or violently abused, on the other hand if they covered their faces with any other colour it would stop the problem. Some might argue why should they change colour, after all it is not racial discrimination, no one is being segregated or made to sit in a certain part of a bus, some people then argue it causes offence, but then it could also be argued offence is in the eye of the beholder. if we took these arguments to extremes....Should the New Zealand rugby team be prevented from doing their war dance, because it is a tribal war dance and therefore divisive and anti another tribe. should the derby tup be stopped because it might be offensive to vegetarians., or an onlooking sensitive ewe or ram. I leave this decision to those that have a direct link to god and communicate with him regularly, like Joe Offer. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Jan 17 - 03:41 AM We've done this to death on previous threads.. but.. if a blackface morris is so stupid enough to believe it can transplant it's dubious tradition from rural conservative Cowshitshire to the metropolitan multicultural centre of 21st century England's 2nd city.. at such a time of post brexit intensified 'us versus them' mistrust and tensions... ... without attracting any complaints or protest...????? Goes beyond sheer naivety.. to almost verging on deliberate arrogant willful provocation...????????????? 😬 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Brenda Date: 10 Jan 17 - 03:19 AM It was on the local BBC news and they did interview some people. The concensus on that was about 50/50. THe morris side in question are yet to make a statement. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: meself Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:38 AM And you're Black - right? |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Gurney Date: 10 Jan 17 - 12:13 AM The last time I saw The Black and White Minstrels I realised that one of the guys WAS a negro. Didn't bother me at all. Amused me slightly. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Jan 17 - 08:26 PM "the PC bullies have done so much damage to England -" Not really Al. While I have never had a problem with blacking up for Morris (though I always did find the Bacup Nutters a bit bizarre,) I understand that some people can take genuine offence from them. For all the pseudo-academic claims about Wizards, many of these "traditions" date no further than the nineteenth century, when the Empire was in full swing and it was commonplace to take the piss out of "darkies" and "coons" and the older ones go back into the slavery period when blacks were no more than beasts of burden. More recently, we've had Brexit being immediately followed by a sharp rise in racist attacks and people of "colour" being asked when they are "going home". Try putting yourself in an immigrant unfamiliar with these practices before you start throwing your "PC"toys out of the pram - explanation goes miles further than outrage, in my experience. I'm often surprised why some of these traditions haven't gone the way of The Black and White Minstrel Show or "The Nigger Minstrels" or even Andy Capp or Punch and Judy (a bit of good old traditional comic domestic violence and abuse - always good for a laugh) Something being old or "traditional" doesn't mean it isn't offensive to some people. Wonder how we would raect to an Asian comic act showing a stereotype flat-capped Englishman staggering home from the boozer and kicking the shit out of his wife and kids - not well, I suspect Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:43 PM Maybe, Al, but what it looks like to ordinary people is pretty important too. When you do Morris, or folksong, or sculpture or photos or paintings (see Lewis Carroll thread), you are speaking to ordinary people, the layman if you like, who is probably not familiar with the history of the tradition like we are. They are not ignorant but they are simply not steeped. That communication done without obfuscation is what art is all about. You don't have to make it easy but you do have to provide a path. I've never believed that there's any such thing as PC, just common decency and sensitivity. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 09 Jan 17 - 07:28 PM A L Lloyd advanced the idea in Folksong in England was that it was about the spirits riches of the earth. the black faces of miners, black imps...the dance as a fertility ritual for the mineral riches of the earth - and how they are mined in darkness by men with black faces, who are friends to the darkness. the PC bullies have done so much damage to England - making the labour party unelectable for reasons of ideological purity that morris dancing is small potatoes, i'm too old to care. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:55 PM Joe posted for me some photos of aforementioned husband posing with blacked-up Morris folk on the previous thread about this matter. I wonder if anyone could be a technological wizard and transfer them to this thread, just to show the obvious goodwill on both sides? No, Senoufou. I did that as an exception....once. As a rule, embedded images are not allowed at Mudcat. Feel free to link to the thread (I couldn't find it). -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:48 PM Yes, careful how you go on this one, Guest SB. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:45 PM Well my husband is a Muslim and has danced with many different Morris sides after being invited to do so while spectating! He's never said it's a sin or 'haram'. He has said he felt a right wally, but that's just because he's a bit shy. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,SB Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:40 PM Photos are here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4100032/Traditional-Morris-Dancers-forced-abandon-city-centre-performance-accused-racist-painting-faces-black.html There's a video on YouTube - somewhere. The assailants have been described as 'Asian' - this is UK mainstream media code for 'Muslims.' It is evident that Morris dancing is deemed a pagan ritual and therefore 'haram.' It is therefore well against Sharia Law which takes precedence over UK Law, so active protests are allowed and tolerated. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:37 PM It's the same here, Senoufou. Hardly a black face to be seen in Bude. But I have lived and worked for more than half my life in inner cities in which sensibilities may be very different. A lot of this is to do with wanting to behave with respect. It doesn't really hurt to ditch "standing on principle on behalf of the tradition" and use woad instead, does it? Actually, tradition dictated that we hanged people for sheep-stealing if I remember rightly! Why not subject Morris blacking-up to the folk process? 😉 |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:36 PM Yes Thompson, I've just watched it and I think you're right. They did sound very upset, but wouldn't listen to the Morris dancers' attempts to explain. As Steve has said, using blue or another colour face paint would have prevented all this unpleasantness. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: meself Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:24 PM Thanks for the link. It does indicate some unpleasantness, obviously - but no assault. Not saying that there wasn't any, but ..... |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Thompson Date: 09 Jan 17 - 06:20 PM I think they were, though the faces are blurred out in the video I posted, Senoufou. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:56 PM Ah, I see Steve. So when the Sheringham Potty Festival of Morris dancing takes place in July, the reason there isn't any kerfuffle about 'blacking up' is because Norfolk hasn't much ethnic diversity. That's a very interesting point. I'm wondering if the 'offended protesters' in Birmingham were black themselves though. I bet they weren't! I always wish potential 'offended parties' would ask the folk on whose behalf they protest if they mind. They probably aren't terribly bothered. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Thompson Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:49 PM I'm just imagining going past these guys with my friend's two little grandchildren by the hand - one whose skin is the colour of black coffee with a tiny dash of milk, the other with caramel skin, green eyes and red hair. I don't think I'd feel at all comfortable trying to explain what was going on. Perhaps when society has matured enough that black skin is no more remarkable than blue eyes it'll be ok, but that's then, this is now. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:48 PM Birmingham is a city of massive ethnic diversity. Doing silly dances pretending to be black men quite possibly isn't the ideal thing to be doing in Birmingham if peace and quiet is your target. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Thompson Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:47 PM Yup. Speaking as an absolute cultural outsider on this, so you need pay no attention to my gut feeling, the blackface used in the video makes me feel queasy and cringe. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Gardham Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:43 PM Hi Guest, Absolutely. An awful lot of traditional songs do need bowdlerising and we do so frequently unless we're particularly presenting historical accuracy in an academic way. |
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: meself Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:37 PM Any photos or video yet? |
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