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blacked up morris dancers abused in uk

Related threads:
Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris (264)
All Black Tup (7)
Black-faced Morris dancers (286)


GUEST 13 Jan 17 - 06:00 AM
GUEST 13 Jan 17 - 06:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Guest 13 Jan 17 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 06:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 17 - 08:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM
Howard Jones 13 Jan 17 - 09:53 AM
Richard Mellish 13 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM
GUEST 13 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM
Rumncoke 13 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM
Andrew Wigglesworth 13 Jan 17 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Jan 17 - 06:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 17 - 06:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 09:32 PM
Snuffy 14 Jan 17 - 03:42 AM
GUEST,theleveller 14 Jan 17 - 04:06 AM
Howard Jones 14 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 17 - 10:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 14 Jan 17 - 10:53 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 17 - 11:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jan 17 - 12:05 PM
Andrew Wigglesworth 14 Jan 17 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 14 Jan 17 - 01:01 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Jan 17 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,pauperback 14 Jan 17 - 06:18 PM
The Sandman 15 Jan 17 - 04:49 AM
The Sandman 15 Jan 17 - 04:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jan 17 - 07:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jan 17 - 07:54 AM
Senoufou 15 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Jan 17 - 09:33 AM
Howard Jones 17 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 17 - 04:11 AM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 07:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM
GUEST 17 Jan 17 - 08:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM
Jeri 17 Jan 17 - 10:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 10:20 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 Jan 17 - 10:37 AM
robomatic 17 Jan 17 - 11:06 AM
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:00 AM

Why would anyone in the Welsh borders want to ridicule black person. Few in the audience would ever have seen one. If they had seen a minstrel show they would probably not have regarded it as ridiculing black people. Ask yourselves you (in the UK) who saw the Black and White Minstrel Show on TV - did you regard it as ridiculing black people?

More likely I think that someone in the borders saw the posters for a minstrel show and thought 'hey that black stuff would be fun for the morris side'


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:01 AM

Few in the borders in the 19th century I mean.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:02 AM

GUEST - OK I try not to talk complete happy clappy bollocks,
where have I ever intimated that achieving a multicultural utopia
rests on dragging a bunch of awkward bugger morris dancers into the 21st Century...

I would hazard a guess that activists who are vehemently anti, and activists who are militantly pro blacked up face
are probably all a bunch of fuckwit zealots in their own peculiar and anti social ways...???

If I habitually use the term black face rather than blacked up.. then apologies if it is a petty annoyance..

What do I know...???
I live down in a part of the south west where morris men are manly enough and unashamed
to not need to hide their true faces in public behind masks... 🙄


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:20 AM

Minstrelsy was huge in the 19th century. The border morris sides picked up on the musical instruments associated with it as well as the look, not to mention music hall songs such as Not for Joe. While we would now see it as racial stereotyping, the point back then was to keep traditions alive by injecting them with a bit of popular culture. It's a bit ironic that these innovations are championed by those who want to resist changing things to keep them up-to-date.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:33 AM

Dunno about those activist zealots. Is this an issue worth discussing at all or should we just let these dancing geezers get on with it? Throughout history it's often been activist zealots who have brought issues to the fore so that potential injustices at least can't be ignored. Activist zealotry may have played a large part in getting the slave trade abolished and doing away with apartheid.

So is the game worth the candle or not apropos of this *relatively* minor issue? It won't change the world much if Morris men stop blacking up. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt much if they just quietly dropped the practice. Strikes me that pig-headed principles should not be resorted to on either side of this by people who regard themselves as grown-ups. Don't carry on doing it and find another way is what I think, on balance. But if they do carry on I will be giving an extremely small damn.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM

I `ad that Fred Tankard-Beard in my cab the other day. I gavver e`s the new National Captain of Dance. `e was on `is way to the EFDSS to chair a meeting about them `as wants to do away with the centuries old tradition of blacking faces when Morris dancing. I could see `e `ad been dancing the night before. `e `ad bits of charcoal black around `is ear`ole.
I said, "`Morning Fred. That Mudcat seems to `ave it`s knickers in a twist again about this old chestnut. You got any thing to say about it?"
`e said, "Jim, I`ve gotta be even `anded about this and `aving spent sleepless nights realising that no one opinion is going to change anything, I shall propose the only solution."
I said, "What`s that then. That the EFDSS come down on the trad. side?"
`e said, "No Jim. A referendum!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:42 AM

Steve - Oh bumflaps.. you caught me out on that one..

I was trying to maintain a public face of objective neutrality,
whilst inside I obviously sympathise with the more moderate multiculturalist protesters.... 😎

There you go.. I'm outed..

.. and, the moral is ..

It's better to not hide behind masks...!!! 🙄


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 08:02 AM

sorry PFR.

it was Morris-ey who called us yokels.

cheeky sod!


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM

no probs Big Al...

Yesterday I was being pestered by an ID imposter "GUEST punkfolkrocker"..

Clever twat seems to think I'd be upset if he/she posted 'outrageous' posts in my name...!!!???

Mods deleted all posts I was aware of..
but I was wondering if the malignant wanker had slipped in another post,
which you read, and mods deleted in the hour or so between my last post and yours.

So good then, that wasn't the problem..

take care mate...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:53 AM

I'm sure I've seen a study which showed some evidence of blacking up prior to the minstrelsy period, but this is on another computer and I can't access it. It is also relevant that prior to the same period blacking up was illegal under anti-poaching laws. When these laws were repealed morris teams may have simply resumed blacking up without necessarily being influenced by minstrelsy which justhappened to be introduced around the same time.

Minstrelsy was indeed a huge craze during the same period as morris, but correlation does not necessarily imply causation - this is a well-known "trap" when looking at data. Because minstrelsy was so popular I find it significant that blacking up was not more widespread in morris, and it seems to been found in the traditions most associated with begging customs which lends support to the disguise interpretation. My own conclusion is that minstrelsy was not the origin of blacking up in morris, although that those traditions which already blacked up (or which used to before the Black Acts) naturally adopted more of the trappings of minstrelsy than those which did not already do so. I accept this is only conjecture of course.

I don't think we should be ashamed of our traditional customs which involve blacking up. If teams or individual performers are uncomfortable with it and decide to do something different that is their choice, but I don't think they should be forced to, and especially not by violence or intimidation.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM

Only a few posts on this thread have mentioned Britannia Coconut dancers. Their website says "the custom of blackened faces are thought to reflect a pagan tradition as a disguise from the evil spirits / and part of the mining connections". It also says "the dances are known to be originated with Moorish pirates which the costume is that of what a Moorish pirate would wear." Take those statements with as much salt as you like: I suggest several handfuls. But still, is there the slightest chance of their changing from blacking up?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM

I took the opportunity to ask someone involved in a multicultural dance project not far from Bacup what the local view of the Coconut dancers was.

I was told that so far as the creative arts in the area was concerned they were 'old and irrelevant'.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Rumncoke
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:50 AM

Perhaps someone could look for any reference to the wearing of pheasant feathers by border morris sides.

I have a strong suspicion that the blacking up has far more to do with the surreptitious acquisition of the former owners of the feathers than mocking skin colour - particularly as anyone working outside in all weathers would have a permanent tan.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM

Latest development


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:44 PM

That report in the Bromsgrove Standard. I don't suppose there's anything else you'd expect the Police to say.

Just looking at Alvechurch Morris, it occurs to me that this whole thing could be pretty easy to solve ... hang in here.

Darker colours, especially black, seem to favour the "look", disguise or perhaps "menacing" aspect of the makeup ... so, why not just add a bit of a stripe across the face, zig-zags on the cheek of white, silver or gold or something similar. It would deflect this whole argument and we could just get back to dancing and watching the dancing.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:53 PM

Well said, Andrew.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:57 PM

just looked at Dave the G's picture!

What a load of nutters!

they'll take some explaining away!


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:32 PM

Can't remember if I said this in a previous thread..
but look to world war one Dazzle Ships for imaginative cool abstract camouflage markings
purposely designed to disguise, disorientate, and confuse....


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:42 AM

Some sense being talked at last! Nobody has objected to dancers wearing disguise, only to painting the whole of the face entirely black.

Any other colour, or combination of colours and designs is acceptable. This is the position taken by FRESH, Shrewsbury Folk festival and EFDSS - see Rtim's 10th January 08:49 posting of the EFDSS statement: "We use contemporary images of dance sides that disguise their faces with the use of masks or non-black paint and patterns in our print, online, and teaching resources, and engage such dance sides for EFDSS events and education projects."


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,theleveller
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 04:06 AM

Bowie did the face painting thing to perfection - much more interesting than just blacking-up.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM

Andrew Wigglesworth, a number of sides do just that, rather than using completely different colours they go for black patterns or only partial blacking.

If teams or individuals choose to do something different to blacking up, either because they are uncomfortable with the historical associations or simply feel it is inappropriate in today's society, that is entirely up to them. However if they are being pressured, or worse intimidated, into doing so that is a very different matter. To give in to that sugggests that we should be ashamed of our traditions, and I don't believe we have any reason to be.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM

painting the face black has nothing to do with racial discrimination, racial discrimination is about people being discriminated against when applying for jobs or entering pubs cafes or being forced to sit in a certain part of a bus because of their colour or race., or being called abusive names, since when has BLACKED UP MORRIS DANCING BEEN RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.
if sides refused to let someone dance on the basis of their colour or sex now that is discrimination, The morris ring have been guilty of gender discrimination in the past.
hypothetically does anyone object to black or brown people painting their faces white or pink.
I am against any kind of racial discrimination OR ANY KIND OF GROUP DISCRIMINATION.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM

It's not quite that though, Dick. Racism and racial discrimination are two different things. Making fun of people on the basis of the colour of their skin is not discriminatory but it is racist. I know that Morris teams are not making fun of people but to some it may look like they are. While I would never dream of preventing anyone from blacking up if the wanted to, I would not do it myself as I think it could viewed, as it has in this case, as offensive to some. And there are good alternatives.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:34 AM

There are genuine issues of discrimination that need to be dealt with,   attacking morris dancers for blacking up is tilting at windmills, morris dancers who black up do it to disguise themselves not to mock people who are black or brown, now if a morris side contained a black or brown ? would people object if they pinked up
I wish there were more black or brown or chinese or japanese doing border morris, then perhaps those ignorant people that attacked morris dancers might start to cop on, meanwhile the morris ring still uses gender discrimination against women.
people need to start fighting real issues of discrimination not this phoney claims of racism, racism and racial discrim ination are the same "thing. here are two different dictionary definitions of racism
1.prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
2.the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
the above examples are not the case with boder morris sides


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:53 AM

The morris ring is run by a bunch of ignorant wankers.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 11:18 AM

so Dave, according to definition in dictionary racism and racial discrimination are one and the same. SO CAN WE FIGHT GENUINE RACISM.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 12:05 PM

Racism and racial discrimination are not the same thing, Dick. Bernard Manning told racist jokes but he did not discriminate against letting 'Nignogs' or 'Pakis' into the Embassy club. But, yes, we can fight genuine racism by stopping discrimination, racial abuse and stereotyping.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Andrew Wigglesworth
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 12:42 PM

Howard Jones: I completely agree with you, and yes, it may have come across as a moment of blinding revelation, but I do know that some sides do this already. Sides could be between the proverbial rock and a hard place on this issue if it continues to gain ground, maybe it'll sensibly die back down, but the policy made by a certain folk festival and the EFDSS statement doesn't give much hope. Personally, I'd be supportive of any team who wished simply to continue doing what they do, as you say, without shame ... but who knows what will happen next :-(


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:01 PM

This is not about racism or discrimination.

It is about having a degree of sensitivity, or at least a degree of social awareness, that if you put on blackface and dance in a major city where there is a significant population of non-white British (but as British as anyone else) then you might expect to called out about it.

If you live in some RoI backwater, or yokel Lincolnshire, or Shitkickshire, then you really have no idea or more likely don't care


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 02:43 PM

Or even Ignorantcuntshire, like Morris-ey.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 06:18 PM

Portland Oregonians have been heard using Clackamastan for the cowboy boot, and cowboy hat wearing Clackamas County.

Rural vs Urban. No love lost there.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 04:49 AM

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 12:05 PM

Racism and racial discrimination are not the same thing, Dick. Bernard Manning told racist jokes but he did not discriminate against letting 'Nignogs' or 'Pakis' into the Embassy club. But, yes, we can fight genuine racism by stopping discrimination, racial abuse and stereotyping.

Cheers

DtG.
if he told racist jokes of course he discriminated, what planet are you on.
border morris sides using black paint ate not being racist or racialy abusing anyone or discriminating racially or stereo typing, they have simply gone out to do some border morris dancing.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 04:52 AM

refusing to let people join a morris side because of their race is disacrimination , but this has not happened, however the morris rimng has discrimated against women joining morris sides. what are your views on that, that is genuine discrimination


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 07:50 AM

"if he told racist jokes of course he discriminated, what planet are you on.
border morris sides using black paint ate not being racist or racialy abusing anyone or discriminating racially or stereo typing,
they have simply gone out to do some border morris dancing.
"

Dick - you simply can't state that with such dogmatic certainty because as far as we know, accomplished as you are, you are not a mind reader.. !!!

None of us know what lies in the hearts and minds of every single individual involved in black up face morris...???

How many may be deliberately, knowingly, provocatively participating in this traditional dance
with the added intention & motivation of winding up the 'lefty liberal PC Brigade'
and stirring up racial disharmony at a time of escalating divisive cultural tensions...???

Now is not a time for naevety and denial...

We do know for a fact UKIP / Brexiteers are gloating in their mean spirited crusade and slender percentage victory,
and that racist attacks are on the increase...

Mere coincidence... really...????? 😣

All this at as certain reactionary arseholes make bold public statements about reclaiming Britain for the 'British'..

Of course a hardcore of known British ultra right wing thug groups have infiltrated and appropriated British Folk Culture
as a symbolic 'flag' to rally around in defense of the realm..

That is objective demonstratable fact... !!! 😠


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 07:54 AM

.. Though when I say "infiltrated".. let's not deny that so many as cannot be counted
were already embedded from within the heart of folk to the fringes for decades by the very nature of rural folk culture,
and are still sowing the seeds of 'Fortress Britain' xenophobia in new generations.... 🙄


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM

The one thing that would put a stop to these 'racism' accusations once and for all, is if lots of black people became members of Border Morris sides. I say 'black' because that is the colour of the make-up, but of course all ethnicities taking part would be excellent. I've never seen a black person dancing, (only my husband when invited into a dance while watching). I once attended a Morris Ring event in Weston-Super-Mare where I noticed a Sikh in a turban dancing with a Cotswold side.
Anyone else know of black Morris dancers anywhere?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:33 AM

Senoufou - truly integrated dance would be brilliant - just imagine the fire that Bhangra could bring to pep up moribund morris..!!! 😎

Forward and outward thinking brit folk notables have promoted high profile multicultural projects
like "Imagined Village"..

which as to be expected was received with much hostile resistance by too many old guard folkies... 😣


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM

Some sensible comments from the "other side":

Banning black face isn't fighting racism


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:11 AM

if he told racist jokes of course he discriminated, what planet are you on.

Thanks for the constructive and civil response to what I thought was a perfectly valid statement, Dick. Excuse me if I totally ignore it.

DtG


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM

Howard Jones, I do like that article you posted very much indeed. And I particularly liked the line that says going by all the racist accusations, one would think Border Morris is '... the arts and crafts wing of the British Nationalist Party.' Brilliant!

The point of the article is very true, that by banning black-face one is denying people the right to present themselves as they see fit for their tradition, and would engender resentment and ill-feeling which would be counter-productive to good relations and tolerance between the many different cultures here in UK.

We actually have a fabulous, rich mix of loads of interesting cultural traditions here, and far from accusing each other of racism, we should be celebrating our luck in having all this diversity. I actually wonder if there is any country in the world with such a wonderfully wide selection of folk dance, song, costume and art?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 07:35 AM

Well the numbers involved isn't the point really. If one single chap did himself up in Minstrel make-up and parodied black folk on a street corner in Norwich, I'd be deeply offended on behalf of my husband.

Liberalism isn't a blanket term for 'anything goes' or a carte blanche for allowing anything and anybody to arrive/act here in UK without control. But it does promote tolerance, acceptance and respect for the diversity which already exists here. To me it represents basic kindness and politeness.

Brexit to me (and many people I've discussed it with) is a result of the sheer numbers of people arriving here from other countries needing housing, schooling, medical care and employment, which we're finding it harder and harder to provide. It's nothing to do with their ethnicity, nationality or culture etc. We're overloaded, stretched to the limit and full up, so it's time to shut the door!


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM

right then.. I've just read Howard Jones's link, and that website's about profile...

It's more or less in accord with my sarcastic mindset and lefty liberal values..
[even though i'd bet more than a fair few right wing libertarians support that site...???]


So just to recap, and make my position clearer...

In an ideal mature sane society I'd be in favour of the visual theatrical impact of blacked face morris..
I think it looks good.

I'd also accept serious artists utilizing minstrel and golly imagery in their artistic expression
to explore ideas, confront, and stimulate viewers and audiences..

But right now post brexit Britain ain't an ideal society,
and is probably doomed to become even les fair and tolerant then it struggles to be right now..???

So in this climate, the onus must be on Blacked up face morris
to take full responsibility for their own, and their supporters attitudes and actions,
and accept the consequences when they inadvertently [..maybe even, deliberately...???] antagonise and offend........

Not too much to ask really.. is it..????


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 08:45 AM

PFR, stop sleeping with the TV on.

Senoufou, liberal = generosity, which makes great leaders, and Nations.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM

Sleeping with the telly on is a British gentleman's sacred right...

I am taking a stand against uninspiring tv shows by actively & militantly nodding off for freedom and justice...!!! 😜

.. Also I probably eat far too big evening meals.....

..and that's proper traditional British grub like bangers and veg curry 'n' rice... !!! 😋


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM

I have just had a post removed from this thread. In my opinion it was hardly controversial or inflammatory, and was in response to other posts. If my considered opinions are not wanted here, and are being censored for some unfathomable reason, I see no point in continuing to contribute to this forum.
Maybe whoever removed it might like to explain why.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM

Senoufou - There in no reasonable justification for today's arbitrary deletions..

AS you can see I have kept a copy of the lost posts.

I think a PM formal complaint from you to Joe or another sensible mod, would carry more weight than one from me..


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 10:07 AM

Keep in mind that this is, so far, a music thread. It's not an opportunity to have a BS debate above the line so guests can stir up trouble. The posts that I saw weren't about the subject at hand. They were either trolls or people dancing to the trolls' tunes.

Senoufou and punkfolkrocker, if you want to have a debate about British political policy as it pertains to perceived racism, you're perfectly capable of starting a thread below the line.

And THIS post ought to be deleted at some point.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 10:20 AM

Hi Jeri - I've been well aware this thread is treading a delicate balance between 'folk' and BS..
but so far it seems to me mostly good humoured
and the 'politics' pertinent to seriously discussing the wider context & ramifications of the music/dance topic under discussion....

From my 30 odd years ago degree/post grad background in arts, media, and ideology,
it is a natural and inescapable binding of 'folk' ideas and 'politics' ideas..


In such a debate, not so easy to enforce strict demarcation lines... 🤔

And dare I say, I think most have us have been fairly tolerant and respectful throughout this thread...

It's certainly not fair to upset Senoufou by stifling her expression of deeply personal concerns on this subject... ????


Posts that responded directly to a troll's remarks were removed. The moral of this episode: Don't Feed the Trolls. Just ignore their remarks and they will be removed. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 10:37 AM

For the record, I am with Jeri on this. The thread was dragged off topic by some quite objectionable GUEST posts. Its best not to respond, though briefly and unwisely I did.

Now, lets have some sensible discussion of when blacking up originated in border Morris, and whether it originally had any racial motivation. As far as I can see experts don't agree on this, and Wikipedia is equivocal.

And then my personal opinion: if the answer to the second is, or conceivably could be, yes, then lets not do it.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:06 AM

I think this is a specific example of a general trend: As peoples interpenetrate each other, the phenomenon also known as multiculturalism, they are exposed to each others' belief systems and traditions. There is a lot of information out there, and not only is a lot of it wrong, a lot of it is not understood correctly, a different kind of wrong.
So blacking up in England is interpreted similarly to blacking up in America, which was a tradition which is not poorly thought of. This conflation leads to resentment.
There is a multi-hundred years old tradition among the Dutch called "Zwarte Piet". It is not a thoudand years, and it is based on a book, but it is beloved among some, and now under attack.
In some cases maybe an explanation and education suffices. But in others, some traditions deserve to be kiboshed no matter how old they are.
Note the announcement in the United States just within the last two days that the grandest circus in American history is going to go defunct. This has gone on for almost a century and a half.
And the tradition of bull-fighting has been diminishing over the last few years and it is certainly over a thousand years old with major religious connotations, both pagan and Judeo-Christian.


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