Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesonny

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]


blacked up morris dancers abused in uk

Related threads:
Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris (264)
All Black Tup (7)
Black-faced Morris dancers (286)


GUEST,Pariah 19 Jan 17 - 10:27 AM
GUEST 19 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,Mathew 19 Jan 17 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 19 Jan 17 - 03:50 AM
Joe Offer 19 Jan 17 - 12:33 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jan 17 - 11:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jan 17 - 02:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 17 - 01:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jan 17 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 17 - 12:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,jojofolkagogo 18 Jan 17 - 10:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jan 17 - 10:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jan 17 - 10:21 AM
GUEST 18 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Jan 17 - 09:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jan 17 - 07:47 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 17 - 07:30 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jan 17 - 07:28 AM
Mo the caller 18 Jan 17 - 05:27 AM
GUEST 18 Jan 17 - 05:23 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jan 17 - 02:32 AM
Joe Offer 17 Jan 17 - 09:34 PM
GUEST,Jon 17 Jan 17 - 06:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 17 - 05:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 17 Jan 17 - 04:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 02:45 PM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 17 - 01:45 PM
Jeri 17 Jan 17 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,Guest 17 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 11:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 11:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 11:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 17 - 11:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 11:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM
robomatic 17 Jan 17 - 11:06 AM
David Carter (UK) 17 Jan 17 - 10:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 10:20 AM
Jeri 17 Jan 17 - 10:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM
GUEST 17 Jan 17 - 08:45 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 07:35 AM
Senoufou 17 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jan 17 - 04:11 AM
Howard Jones 17 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Pariah
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 10:27 AM

Anent 18 Jan 17 - 07:28 AM;

You surely don't mean to say, Steve, that you would actually wish to live in a world where decency, common sense and sensitivity would trump (if you'll excuse the word) "the right[sic] of people to present themselves as they see fit", do you?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM

As Morris sides continue moving over to a less controversial disguise I would expect the general view to shift as they will then be explaining/justifying their change within the Morris fraternity.

Self-justification or like ex-smokers often being the most vociferous in favour of people giving up.

Shrewsbury Folk Festival was mentioned. Two or three years ago a black American performer did describe (on stage or in an streamed interview, I can't remember) their initial reactions to seeing blacked-up Morris dancers for the first time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 03:51 AM

Joe, I hadn't even considered this in Canada or the US. That would be a very uncomfortable experience indeed.

My question is this, has blackface had the same racial connotation in the UK as it has definitely had on our side of the pond?

Either way I wish nobody was hurt.

One love, my friends.

I often wonder what legends like Stan Rogers and Pete Seeger thought about the black faced morris dancing.

Very interesting, regardless of how uncomfortable it is


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 03:50 AM

I can't help thinking the arguments put forward here are very similar to the ones put forward in the discussion of the Dutch Santa's little helper 'Black Pete'.

Black Pete : racism row

In that discussion defenders pull out the whole 'tradition, we've been doing it for ages, it's what we are' argument with a bit of 'PC gone mad' for added flavour. And while it may or may not be that the Saint's servant is a moorish pirate or not or whether there are racist overtones (in practice, there are, in the case of St Nicholas' assistant, IMHO)it doesn't really matter. People are offended and that should be reason enough to at least consider what the problem is and if anything can be done to make changes that form a comprise acceptable to all. Traditions are, after all, not set in stone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 12:33 AM

This discussion has come up here at Mudcat on several occasions over the years. Early on, there seemed to be near-unanimous agreement among UK Mudcatters that blackface was a tradition that had nothing to do with racism, and that it must be preserved.

There are still many who think that, but I think that many others are changing their minds. We've seen a few extremists post here, who think maybe they can take advantage of this blackface tradition to promote their own racism. And there are others who are beginning to wonder how African immigrants feel about the blackface tradition, even though they may not speak out against it.

So, at least from this side of the pond, it appears that attitudes may be changing in the UK about blackface. In the US minstrel tradition, there's no question - blackface is racist, and there's no defense for performing in blackface in the U.S.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:08 PM

"I often wonder why tolerance is so often a one way street ?"

easy... the good guys are tolerant..

the bad guys aren't.....

left or right, religious or non believer..

ranters and zealots [and the sneaky silent noxious colluders..] are life force sucking socially dysfunctional arseholes..


Sounds to me like you just described perfectly the people who attacked the blacked-up Morris-Dancers, PFR. In a civilised society, nobody should be attacking and abusing anyone.

'Tolerance' is accepting the dancers' explanation of the reasons for, and meaning of, blacking-up.

'Intolerance' is attacking and abusing them, despite their honest assurances that blacking-up is in no way intended to mock or offend dark-skinned people but, rather, is a reference to disguising oneself in order to avoid accusations of begging.

Sometimes, it could be argued, 'offence' and 'intolerance' are precisely the same emotion.

IMHO, of course. YMMV.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:59 PM

dysfunctional arseholes

I had one of them for ages. Loperamide sorted it out.

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM

"I often wonder why tolerance is so often a one way street ?"

easy... the good guys are tolerant..

the bad guys aren't.....

left or right, religious or non believer..

ranters and zealots [and the sneaky silent noxious colluders..] are life force sucking socially dysfunctional arseholes.. 😣


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:59 PM

I often wonder why tolerance is so often a one way street ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:07 PM

"ellipses" - bloody hell.. it's over 4 decades since i went to grammar school.. I needed to look that one up...

oh.. I see... nah I don't use "..." to indicate omissions...

I just have a bad habit of using the little dot buggers to represent pauses and time lapse.. like stopping for breath... or thought....

errrr..... a bit sorta like poetic / dramatic effect....... 😜

[also a bit more like a nervous tick really.....]

But enough about my increasingly crap as i get older writing skills...



Now back to the thread subject matter...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 12:55 PM

It was only convoluted bcause I was trying to cover whatever your ellipses (...) may have meant.

Did I imagine a link to a very measured response from a source that one might have expected to be more critical of the dancers?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM

eh...??? I just slapped together a quick simple metaphor while a bit bored, as much for my own amusement as to make any enlightening point...

.. but GUEST you've got me so confused with your convoluted interpretations of it,
that i might just end up disagreeing and falling out with myself...???? 😕 😜


Btw, I don't accept or condone aggressive abuse, or violent attacks on anyone
whether it be politically/religiously motivated, or pissheads and fuckwits lashing out at anyone a bit different to their boneheaded world views...

But I do strongly advise that blacked up morris think carefully about how they might be winding up the kind of folks who do want to have ago at them...

and take sensible and aware precautions in these increasingly austere & divisive times...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,jojofolkagogo
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:51 AM

The reference to use Woad is an excellent one - have just wiki'd and seen that blue Woad was used over 200 years or more ago, so that makes it certainly "traditional" - but I think blue or even lime green or pink would offend some - the quote "you cant please all the people all the time ... " comes to mind ... personally I feel it would be a shame to lose the traditional black - I still have a Golly-Wog !!   Jo


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:28 AM

I also just noticed the image of morris dancers folornly jumping around to the leaden beat of a drum, melodeon and badly strummed guitar in a shopping precint near you - will be a familiar one to many of us

None of the Morris sides I have ever seen folornly (sic) jump around. They are enthusiasts and enjoy it remendously. Nor can their music be descriped as leaden or badly played. If this is an example of you not 'slinging shit' I would hate to see what happens when you bend your mind to insults!

What on earth do you have against Morris dancers? Or am I missing the point again? If so, could you please explain?

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:21 AM

As always you miss the point in the usual attempt to sling shit, Dave. Usually ably assisted by your Mudcat mates.

Huh?

No shit slung by me, Al. I thought it was you who said "I mean really, who gives a shit about Morris dancers?" and my response was "... but I would never suggest no one is interested."

Still, I suppose you have proven the point that whatever anyone does someone will take offense!

Thanks for that :-)

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM

I detect a touch of the pejorative there, Guest.

Not at all. I was promoting tolerance and civilized procedures.

That line followed on from punkfolkrocker's "Fast forward to 2017.. would he be so casually tolerated near kids nowadays..???". It is not uncommon for non-tolerance in that sort of context to make itself seen in the form of ad-hoc group from the community who runs little risk of getting puches on the nose. There are better procedures to deal with such concerns.


Similarly for worries over the perception of blacked-up dancers. My disagreement with punkfolkrocker is over how times have changed. 200 years ago protests against a bunch of dancers may have ended up in a fight - but the protest may not have happened for that reason. We are more civilised now. It is not neccassary to try to knock dancers hats off etc. Unless you are after publicity rather than reasoned debate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 09:00 AM

As always you miss the point in the usual attempt to sling shit, Dave. Usually ably assisted by your Mudcat mates.

The point I was making - who would mastermind a public intrusion into what consenting adults get up to, usually - it has to be said - whenever it ventures forth from folk festivals and country jamborees to mass indifference. the image of morris dancers folornly jumping around to the leaden beat of a drum, melodeon and badly strummed guitar in a shopping precint near you - will be a familiar one to many of us.

it goes against the tolerant and laid back tenor of the times we live in. I think it will be interesting to see what next artistic endeavours comes under attack from this group.

They're going for the weakest first, like Mrs Whitehouse did with Gay News and the National theatre a generation ago.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 07:47 AM

Using stripes or patterns was common certainly going back to 1901 in Abram, Lancashire. There are two examples on the back row of that photo. Not sure about the chap second from the left though!

Abram Morris have kept the tradition to the present day. I don't know who the handsome chap in these two photos is as he is obviously disguised but he seems very familiar...

:D tG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 07:30 AM

Oops, you didn't say stripes, did you? Where did I read that...? 🙄


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 07:28 AM

"Times may have changed such that activists (and anti wierdo vigilante groups) can usually get away with abuse without risking an on-the-spot fight."

I detect a touch of the pejorative there, Guest. There are definitely two sides to this. The Morris team Mo referred to represent the other side where common sense and sensitivity prevail. Mind you, Mo, don't let the Zebra Liberation Front hear about those stripes! 😉


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 05:27 AM

Another Morris team has just voted to accelerate their move away from black to patterns (already most of the side wore 2 colours, now they all will)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 05:23 AM

Times and appropriate public behaviour have seriously changed, and people need to adapt for their own survival...

Times are aways changing. There have always been multicultural societies where people avoid day-to-day conflict through a combination of tolerance, courtesy (maybe of a formal kind) and sensitivity to others.

Times may have changed such that activists (and anti wierdo vigilante groups) can usually get away with abuse without risking an on-the-spot fight.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:32 AM

Wise words, Joe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:34 PM

Jeri, I think it's wise to be moderate in moderation. This is a controversial subject, and no doubt there will be controversial posts. Until people start killing each other, it's best to let the discussion work itself out. I undeleted a few posts, but left the ones deleted that were just infighting.
Folks, we try our best to allow free discussion in the music section, but we do depend on people working on their own to self-moderate. If somebody's obviously trolling, please don't respond to them. We'll take care of it, if there's a need.
-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 06:15 PM

I think I have an odd relationship there dtg. I love dance tunes and play a few (mostly Irish). I can also like to think a tune is going the way imaginary dancers would enjoy. But my "home" is really a session.

In a sense I suppose the dancers are not needed but where would the music have been without them???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 05:57 PM

Well, me for one, Al. There may be a lot who would agree with you but without dance, music would not be as rich as it is. One of the beauties of English folk music, to me, is that a lot of it has roots in both social and ceremonial dance. I can't imagine a world without all manner of dance and even though I am well past my sell by date when it comes to Morris, the traditional tunes can still set my feet tapping. I cannot say the same for a lot of contemporary folk but I would never suggest no one is interested.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:08 PM

Doesn't this all seem very strange? Unreal...
I mean really, who gives a shit about Morris dancers?

perhaps their mothers, i suppose...perhaps...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 02:45 PM

ok.. heres one of them there metaphor thingies for consideration

Our very small west country market town where I grew up..

[20 miles down the road from where i now live..]

In the mid 1960s when I was kid walking to junior school and back with my mates we'd often pass by one of the harmless town nutters..

All year round he rambled the streets of the estate in nothing but a very tight T shirt
and a very skimpy pair of speedo style swimming trunks

.. dunno .. maybe some kind of health freak..

He never approached or bothered us kids, and the adults laughed him off as that soft in the head bloke in his Y fronts...

Fast forward to 2017.. would he be so casually tolerated near kids nowadays..???

Times and appropriate public behaviour have seriously changed, and people need to adapt for their own survival... 🙄

I won't even mention weird old Alfie who lived in the bungalows... ???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 01:45 PM

It is also relevant that prior to the same period blacking up was illegal under anti-poaching laws

"Roll up! Roll up! We're your local poaching team, here to entertain you with our traditional dance..."

I don't think so. Sounds about as likely as a pickpocketing shanty.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 12:21 PM

I might as well weigh in on this.
It doesn't seem to me that "blacking up" has much to do with minstrelry. The latter pokes fun at Black people while appropriating their music. It's about acknowledging the quality of music while ridiculing people.
The morris dancing doesn't seem to ridicule, doesn't usurp anyone else's traditions. The only thing it has in common with minstrelry is the black faces. In short, I don't see any hatred, disdain, or ridicule. I don't know (does anyone, for sure?) that the black faces aren't chimney-sweepesque or a form of disguise. Even if they ARE trying to look like Black people, without the negative stuff, I don't see the problem. People who try to look like another group of people are pretty common.

I realize some people will take offense. To some extent, perception=reality, and no matter how factually wrong they may be, their opinions and feelings are real. Whether folks adjust their behavior based on other people's perceptions is decision only they can make. I don't want to get caught up in saying whether they're right or wrong.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM

If you want to do your own research start with the following (generally easier to make sense of than the confusing and inaccurate Wikipedia page):
Gordon Ashman, 1988. Custom in conflict : the morris dance in the Shrewsbury and Ironbridge area of Shropshire. Traditional Dance, 5/6, p. 135-151.
Teresa Buckland, 1990. Black faces, garlands, and coconuts: exotic dances on street and stage. Dance Research Journal, 22(2), Autumn 1990, p. 1-12.
Roy Palmer, 2004. The folklore of Shropshire. Almeley : Logaston Press, p. 263-269.
Roy Dommett, 2012. Blacking up and "Border" morris. Morris Matters, 31(1), p. 15-16.
Derek Schofield, 2005. A black and white issue? English Dance & Song, Summer 2005, p. 12-14.
Chloe Metcalfe, 2013. To black up or not black up? Morris Federation Newsletter, Winter, p. 6-9.
Charlotte Burne, 1886. Shropshire folk-lore, vol. 3. London : Trübner & Co.
E. C. Cawte, 1963. The morris dance in Herefordshire, Shropshire and Worcestershire. Journal of the EFDSS, 9(4), p. 197-212.
Dave Jones, 1995. The roots of Welsh border morris. Putley : Annie Jones, 75 p.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:47 AM

No thanks Jeri, I have no wish to start anything with anyone.
I'm off.
Eliza


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:39 AM

For example 😎


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:27 AM

There's very interesting & intelligent stuff going on amongst the pagan folk culture bands / artists in Europe..

Which does involve some forms of face darkening..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:16 AM

Just as I hit post I thought of what may make, in my mind, an excellent alternative. How about Green Man-esque type camouflage? Links in a couple of pagan elements quite well :-)

D.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:14 AM

David Carter (UK) - ok... in my estimation.. it doesn't really matter what the original intent and motivation was..
perhaps too far lost back in time...???

What is important is..

Now.. how is Blacked up face morris perceived by a majority of British multi ethnic population
who are not interested or knowledgeable in our specialist hobby / academic obsession...??? 🙄

.. and then it's not as if most of them will ever encounter morris anywhere in their lives..
apart from maybe stumbling across a morris side on a trip to the shops in a town or city centre...

Just like any the other oddballs and nutters who take their turn at putting on a show event in a public space..

Actually what is more entertaining or outrageously offensive to a a casual passing uninformed public audience..
blacked up face morris skipping about in feathers and boot polish,
or any of the sermonising evangelical religious zealots
shouting that we are all doomed to hell as we make our way to the pound shop or Argos....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM

I would agree with that, David and made the decision not to do so myself some time back. I would however not dream of imposing that choice on anyone else. Make up is a very personal thing - Just ask any of the ladies here :-)

Provided that it is obviously not a 'minstrel' type of make up I can't see how it would cause offense but at some point, someone may take offense anyway :-( Why risk it when there are many good alternatives?

Cheers

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 11:06 AM

I think this is a specific example of a general trend: As peoples interpenetrate each other, the phenomenon also known as multiculturalism, they are exposed to each others' belief systems and traditions. There is a lot of information out there, and not only is a lot of it wrong, a lot of it is not understood correctly, a different kind of wrong.
So blacking up in England is interpreted similarly to blacking up in America, which was a tradition which is not poorly thought of. This conflation leads to resentment.
There is a multi-hundred years old tradition among the Dutch called "Zwarte Piet". It is not a thoudand years, and it is based on a book, but it is beloved among some, and now under attack.
In some cases maybe an explanation and education suffices. But in others, some traditions deserve to be kiboshed no matter how old they are.
Note the announcement in the United States just within the last two days that the grandest circus in American history is going to go defunct. This has gone on for almost a century and a half.
And the tradition of bull-fighting has been diminishing over the last few years and it is certainly over a thousand years old with major religious connotations, both pagan and Judeo-Christian.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 10:37 AM

For the record, I am with Jeri on this. The thread was dragged off topic by some quite objectionable GUEST posts. Its best not to respond, though briefly and unwisely I did.

Now, lets have some sensible discussion of when blacking up originated in border Morris, and whether it originally had any racial motivation. As far as I can see experts don't agree on this, and Wikipedia is equivocal.

And then my personal opinion: if the answer to the second is, or conceivably could be, yes, then lets not do it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 10:20 AM

Hi Jeri - I've been well aware this thread is treading a delicate balance between 'folk' and BS..
but so far it seems to me mostly good humoured
and the 'politics' pertinent to seriously discussing the wider context & ramifications of the music/dance topic under discussion....

From my 30 odd years ago degree/post grad background in arts, media, and ideology,
it is a natural and inescapable binding of 'folk' ideas and 'politics' ideas..


In such a debate, not so easy to enforce strict demarcation lines... 🤔

And dare I say, I think most have us have been fairly tolerant and respectful throughout this thread...

It's certainly not fair to upset Senoufou by stifling her expression of deeply personal concerns on this subject... ????


Posts that responded directly to a troll's remarks were removed. The moral of this episode: Don't Feed the Trolls. Just ignore their remarks and they will be removed. ---mudelf


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 10:07 AM

Keep in mind that this is, so far, a music thread. It's not an opportunity to have a BS debate above the line so guests can stir up trouble. The posts that I saw weren't about the subject at hand. They were either trolls or people dancing to the trolls' tunes.

Senoufou and punkfolkrocker, if you want to have a debate about British political policy as it pertains to perceived racism, you're perfectly capable of starting a thread below the line.

And THIS post ought to be deleted at some point.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM

Senoufou - There in no reasonable justification for today's arbitrary deletions..

AS you can see I have kept a copy of the lost posts.

I think a PM formal complaint from you to Joe or another sensible mod, would carry more weight than one from me..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:19 AM

I have just had a post removed from this thread. In my opinion it was hardly controversial or inflammatory, and was in response to other posts. If my considered opinions are not wanted here, and are being censored for some unfathomable reason, I see no point in continuing to contribute to this forum.
Maybe whoever removed it might like to explain why.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM

Sleeping with the telly on is a British gentleman's sacred right...

I am taking a stand against uninspiring tv shows by actively & militantly nodding off for freedom and justice...!!! 😜

.. Also I probably eat far too big evening meals.....

..and that's proper traditional British grub like bangers and veg curry 'n' rice... !!! 😋


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 08:45 AM

PFR, stop sleeping with the TV on.

Senoufou, liberal = generosity, which makes great leaders, and Nations.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM

right then.. I've just read Howard Jones's link, and that website's about profile...

It's more or less in accord with my sarcastic mindset and lefty liberal values..
[even though i'd bet more than a fair few right wing libertarians support that site...???]


So just to recap, and make my position clearer...

In an ideal mature sane society I'd be in favour of the visual theatrical impact of blacked face morris..
I think it looks good.

I'd also accept serious artists utilizing minstrel and golly imagery in their artistic expression
to explore ideas, confront, and stimulate viewers and audiences..

But right now post brexit Britain ain't an ideal society,
and is probably doomed to become even les fair and tolerant then it struggles to be right now..???

So in this climate, the onus must be on Blacked up face morris
to take full responsibility for their own, and their supporters attitudes and actions,
and accept the consequences when they inadvertently [..maybe even, deliberately...???] antagonise and offend........

Not too much to ask really.. is it..????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 07:35 AM

Well the numbers involved isn't the point really. If one single chap did himself up in Minstrel make-up and parodied black folk on a street corner in Norwich, I'd be deeply offended on behalf of my husband.

Liberalism isn't a blanket term for 'anything goes' or a carte blanche for allowing anything and anybody to arrive/act here in UK without control. But it does promote tolerance, acceptance and respect for the diversity which already exists here. To me it represents basic kindness and politeness.

Brexit to me (and many people I've discussed it with) is a result of the sheer numbers of people arriving here from other countries needing housing, schooling, medical care and employment, which we're finding it harder and harder to provide. It's nothing to do with their ethnicity, nationality or culture etc. We're overloaded, stretched to the limit and full up, so it's time to shut the door!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM

Howard Jones, I do like that article you posted very much indeed. And I particularly liked the line that says going by all the racist accusations, one would think Border Morris is '... the arts and crafts wing of the British Nationalist Party.' Brilliant!

The point of the article is very true, that by banning black-face one is denying people the right to present themselves as they see fit for their tradition, and would engender resentment and ill-feeling which would be counter-productive to good relations and tolerance between the many different cultures here in UK.

We actually have a fabulous, rich mix of loads of interesting cultural traditions here, and far from accusing each other of racism, we should be celebrating our luck in having all this diversity. I actually wonder if there is any country in the world with such a wonderfully wide selection of folk dance, song, costume and art?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:11 AM

if he told racist jokes of course he discriminated, what planet are you on.

Thanks for the constructive and civil response to what I thought was a perfectly valid statement, Dick. Excuse me if I totally ignore it.

DtG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM

Some sensible comments from the "other side":

Banning black face isn't fighting racism


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 22 January 7:33 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.