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blacked up morris dancers abused in uk

Related threads:
Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris (264)
All Black Tup (7)
Black-faced Morris dancers (286)


GUEST 25 Jan 17 - 09:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM
Senoufou 25 Jan 17 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 25 Jan 17 - 08:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 17 - 04:44 AM
David Carter (UK) 25 Jan 17 - 04:21 AM
Joe Offer 25 Jan 17 - 03:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jan 17 - 12:22 AM
GUEST,Pariah 24 Jan 17 - 09:21 PM
GUEST 24 Jan 17 - 04:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 04:05 PM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 04:01 PM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 03:48 PM
David Carter (UK) 24 Jan 17 - 03:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 02:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 01:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 01:47 PM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 01:23 PM
GUEST 24 Jan 17 - 01:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 12:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 12:31 PM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 12:24 PM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 12:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 12:11 PM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 12:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 12:04 PM
GUEST 24 Jan 17 - 12:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 11:53 AM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 11:10 AM
Noreen 24 Jan 17 - 11:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 17 - 09:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Jan 17 - 07:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jan 17 - 05:46 AM
Will Fly 24 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM
Joe Offer 24 Jan 17 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,Pariah 19 Jan 17 - 10:27 AM
GUEST 19 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,Mathew 19 Jan 17 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 19 Jan 17 - 03:50 AM
Joe Offer 19 Jan 17 - 12:33 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jan 17 - 11:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jan 17 - 02:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 17 - 01:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jan 17 - 01:07 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 17 - 12:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,jojofolkagogo 18 Jan 17 - 10:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Jan 17 - 10:28 AM
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 09:39 AM

Yes pfr I did, and aren't they excellent? Very sinister and scary. Actually some Ivory Coast ethnic traditions have a straw man type of a thing where the body is covered in leaves/straw and the man inside wears a special mask (white in colour actually!!), and he 'becomes' a dangerous spirit.

My husband was delighted with the Straw Bear at Whittlesea, as he could relate to the idea very easily. Being typically African, he was quite scared of it, and seemed to forget it was just a man. He kept his distance, as he didn't want the evil magic to get onto him. I reckon the Witchmen engender the same reaction in me, and this must go back a long, long way into our cultural history. (Long before any 'Minstrelsy' rubbish!)


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM

Senoufou - they do sound good to experience..

did you see the photo gallery of European trad folk disguise I linked to
in an earlier post in this thread...???


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:39 AM

David Carter, about the Witchmen: we've watched them many many times. And yes, they still black up. My black husband has had his photo taken loads of times with them, arms around each other in an extremely friendly way. A plump black lady from Ghana was watching them at Sheringham quite recently and she stood next to us. She was enchanted and thought they were wonderful.
I agree they're scary, which I adore. They're pagan and that's why they chose black and amber as their colours. They grunt and growl, and wave their fists at each other in the dance, it's brilliant.
There's absolutely NOTHING parodying Africans about their dancing. Nothing.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:07 AM

Same with Zwarte Piet, although the suggestion that he is going to carry the naughty children off to his home in Spain is a bit of a clue, don't you think.

Zwarte Piet is usually explained either as a Moorish 'servant' (slave, essentially, one would presume) or blackened by soot from climbing through chimneys to enter houses. The longstanding practice of having him speak in broken/child like language and made up perceived mock 'black' or (later) surinam accents is a bit of a give away when it comes to racial/racist roots.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 04:44 AM

A bit of light relief on the subject of politicians on Morris dance.

Dance idiot, dance! On YouTube

I'll let you figure out who they are singing about.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 04:21 AM

Sajid Javed, as usual, is running his mouth when he doesn't know the answers. Nobody knows whether that tradition had any racial connotations. Look at the Wikipedia entry, and follow some of the links, people who know or knew far more about this than you, I, or Sajid Javed, disagree on this. Same with Zwarte Piet, although the suggestion that he is going to carry the naughty children off to his home in Spain is a bit of a clue, don't you think.

No I am not a Morris dancer, I do know Morris dancers, not ones who use blackface though. But I did once see the Witchmen. They present themselves as pagan, they used blackface then but I don't know whether they still do. Skilled dancers, reasonable musicians, but very, very disturbing. Knowing how it affects some people I would not now watch a blackface side.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:31 AM

David, I'd say that by the mid-1980s, blackface was unacceptable in American entertainment, except in very specific situations where it was needed for historical purposes.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 12:22 AM

Noreen - Surely, we - individuals and social groups - cannot just turn our backs to problems that might affect us..
whether they be of our own or others making;
deny they exist, and hope they'll go away.. ???

.. rationalize our failings, whilst attacking and denigrating anyone who brings those problems to our unwilling attention...??????


... Oh.. what..we can ???

.. and we do...all the time..???

ok.. that's life.. so it goes..... 😞

Morris on......


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Pariah
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 09:21 PM

Unlike you, younger people have no knowledge of the B&W minstrels and related blackface mimicry.

If indeed they don't have said knowledge (of which I'm by no means convinced), they certainly should, and its past time they were properly educated.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:15 PM

@punkfolkrocker.

I am the same GUEST who said "There have always been multicultural societies where people avoid day-to-day conflict through a combination of tolerance, courtesy (maybe of a formal kind) and sensitivity to others."

Sensitivity to others includes explaining your traditions to others when you recognise that they do not understand. It could also include changing your behaviour when people misunderstand it - but that doesn't do much for tradition or multiculturalism.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:05 PM

Noreen - since the early 80s Media studies / communication studies / ideology studies etc
have filtered down from the Polys and Unis into comprehensive schools, and even primary schools...

Young kids, urban and provincial, should be well aware of the B&W Minstrels as case study material..

As I said earlier in this thread.. morris can no longer exist in a head in the sand state of naivety and denial...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:01 PM

What I originally looked in here to post some hours ago, was the news that a Gloucestershire Morris Man has had a reply to his email on this matter to the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.

I'm not typing out the whole letter, but the relevant part says:

as...Sajid Javid made clear, there are no racial connotations linked with this tradition.

I am not of course saying that because we have government support it solves everything, but it is very nice to think that those in power have our backs on this when we have previously been threatened with abuse, ostracism and legal action.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 03:48 PM

Well done David Carter: if what you say is true, that anonymous divisive troll has now won.

You mention your age.
Unlike you, younger people have no knowledge of the B&W minstrels and related blackface mimicry. They don't carry this baggage around with them as those of previous generations do.
You are in effect perpetuating the memory by discussing it at all.
It has absolutely no connection with the border morris of today, and it upsets us when others unjustly put the burden of this connection on us.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 03:04 PM

Morris dancers cannot be oblivious to the connotations of blackface. I grew up in the 1960s, and we watched George Mitchell's Black and White Minstrel show. This drew heavily on US minstrel tradition. It was very, very popular. It was only in the very late 1960s that it began to be seen as offensive, but I am astonished to read that the BBC continued to broadcast it until 1978, and the show toured until 1992.

Joe, if you are reading this, when did blackface become unacceptable in the USA? I would think that it would have been a lot earlier, I may be wrong.

Now most Morris dancers, sadly, are my age or even older. They cannot be unaware of the history and the connotations. Maybe they think that this isn't as important as their own traditions, leaving aside whether their own traditions have deep roots in medieval racism, which they don't actually know, even if they say they do. And whilst the vast majority of Morris dancers will not intend to cause offence, and will have no truck with the likes of the BNP, the world today is such that in any activity there will be one or two who do. And I have no idea, and I suspect neither does either pfr or Noreen, whether the GUEST who posted on 11 Jan 17 at 07:31pm was anything to do with Morris or not. It is that post which has convinced me that Morris sides should not now use blackface.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 02:31 PM

GUEST - a few spare minutes whilst cooking...

The nature of mudcat forum is I can't know if you are the real deal you present yourself as,
or a piss taking wind up merchant...???

Either way - don't really matter - i'll just take your words at face value...

you appeal to my skewed sense of humour.. and provide material of a certain mindset to respond to as relevant to the topic of discussion..
.. and if and when I can be arsed.... 🙄


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:51 PM

GUEST - whatever you are trying to manipulate, or provoke me into saying...
save it for another day... it's time for bangers and pizza.. more good hot trad British grub... 😜


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:47 PM

Noreen - I like morris - I don't participate - but I respect it...

However a simple google of, say for example, "b p folk music"[you know where to put the 'n']
stirs up so many links of various degrees of truth and reality,
that morris can not remain so oblivious to how the trad dance art relates to modern urban citizens.

The rights or wrongs become secondary to the general 'uninformed' public perception of what black face morris looks like and might be.

This is the cultural context that morris is judged within and by, however unjustly,
and puts the onus on morris to present & communicate it's case more thoughtfully and sensitively....

..or not.. who am I to impose my will on anyone...????

Morris survives or withers by it's own efforts...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:23 PM

I have read enough "comment" threads on YouTube, MailOnline etc. relating to this subject to recognise the hallmarks of a UKIP troll, unfortunately- as I'm sure you have.

Honestly, I would be truly amazed if anyone closely associated with the Morris expressed themselves in those terms.
Get yourself out and talk to some!


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 01:17 PM

Maybe best to stop digging punkfolkrocker.

There are no "vile provocative comments rom xenophobic morris supporters" for a new reader to find and you have to appeal to "not entirely beyond the realms of realistic conjecture" to link even a choice from your private hoard to any dancers.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:40 PM

"And do you really think that loony anonymous UKIP troll (and presumably others in the same vein that were deleted) is anything to do with the Morris world?
Come on.
"

well.... it's not entirely beyond the realms of realistic conjecture..

surely you can maybe consider that...???

we can all surround ourselves with really 'nice' people.. but who knows what really lurks in the mind of any individual....???


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:31 PM

I did... 🙄


.. within reason..

Ps.. it's in my DNA to constantly test and challenge even my own lapses into negative assumptions and speculations..

That's the benefit of a high quality pre thatcherite state funded education..😎


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:24 PM

And do you really think that loony anonymous UKIP troll (and presumably others in the same vein that were deleted) is anything to do with the Morris world?
Come on.

Ignore the trolls.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM

I could.
And you could have refrained from making negative assumptions and speculating based on no evidence.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:14 PM

Noreen - you could have posted that earlier.
First hand accounts, or a retelling of a reliable witness's version of events
would have been more than welcome earlier in this more speculative of debates...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:11 PM

GUEST - ha ha ha... ooh you are a one... here's one of the milder examples

"From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM

Why is everyone pondering to political correctness here, this is traditional BRITISH folk let those fuckers protesting and complaining go fuck themselves.

Britain needs to reclaim it's culture, voting UKIP is a positive start folks.
"

.. and you know fully well I can't link to any deleted posts...

[though I have saved & archived as many as I could from complete oblivion before moderation removed them.. just saying..]


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:06 PM

I HAVE read the whole thread, from the beginning, when it happened pfr.
What I meant was I have just caught up with the last few days' posts.


Several sides were dancing out in various locations in the city centre throughout the day with no problem, as they have done many times before.

Some local youths started to cause trouble, firstly with one of the Cotswold sides (not blacked up) then with the Alvechurch men. They wouldn't be reasoned with and one of the lads filmed himself saying "isn't this racist" at length- this clip was put on YouTube.
How this was picked up by the press is anyone's guess.

It became an issue, with police involvement, because a morris side were attacked (hats knocked off) threatened and subjected to very nasty abuse (after he'd turned his phone off) and prevented from dancing.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:04 PM

Noreen - Btw..

"You imply this was done deliberately now to stir up trouble, which could not be further from the truth."

I questioned the extent to which this may be a problem morris needs to intelligently self examine and respond to
in the context of post brexit divisiveness......???

I also like to be optimistic and look for the best in people,
hoping that mudcatters are broad minded sophisticated thinkers..

I personally don't do "simplistic".... 😐


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:00 PM

There have been more than a few vile provocative comments from xenophobic morris supporters

Links please. Just a few will do.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:53 AM

"I feel rather grubby now, having waded through the last chunk of this thread.

Fair enough.. now maybe go back and read a little more of this thread
and you will become more aware, that I have [in my own sarcastic/tongue in cheek style] strived to remain reasonably balanced & objective..
..asking necessary questions within the broader social perspective...

There have been more than a few vile provocative comments from xenophobic morris supporters,
for us to respond to..

Unfortunately, such is the nature of mudcat moderation, that you will not read their deleted inflammatory right wing posts... 😣

.... I actually like the striking theatrical look of blacked up face morris..

What I do find uncomfortable is the apparent complacency of morris members/supporters who think they can brush off questions & critiscism
with inward thinking smug disdain...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:10 AM

There was not a "a telly crew and reporters... on hand", nor were there "press releases to all the papers". Where did you get that from?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:03 AM

I feel rather grubby now, having waded through the last chunk of this thread.

It would be lovely if, when you were carrying on contributing to such a thread over several days, you could take the time to actually get to know something about the subject- which several posting here admit they don't.

I take particular exception to punkfolkrocker's repeated jibes at the supposed motivation of the morris sides dancing out in Birmingham:

How many may be deliberately, knowingly, provocatively participating in this traditional dance with the added intention & motivation of winding up the 'lefty liberal PC Brigade' and stirring up racial disharmony at a time of escalating divisive cultural tensions...???

and

...and accept the consequences when they inadvertently [..maybe even, deliberately...???] antagonise and offend........

This says more about the way you see the world, pfr, than anything else. Anyone even thinking this has obviously never spent any time in morris circles or ever met a morris dancer (they're not all men, you know).
As with folkies in general, all morris dancers of all persuasions that I have met, played and danced with, are inclusive, largely apolitical and just wanting to share our traditions with others while having a good time, and are horrified by recent upset stirred up by others for their own ends.

In years of dancing out blacked-up we have never once had anyone complain or take offence- as Senoufou quoted her (very black) husband saying "if anyone thinks they're trying to look like me, they need their eyes testing!" (paraphrased)
People often ask about the history and why we do it of course, but only in an interested way, not because they are offended in the slightest.

Morris dancers have been dancing out on Plough Monday as on other significant days of the year for a very long time, going into the local towns to spread the fun and entertain. This applies to Birmingham too, where the local side are based who invited Alvechurch and many other sides to dance with them.
Birmingham has changed a lot of course over the years, but us traditionalists still like to remind others of the phases of the year by dancing out, as has always been done.

You imply this was done deliberately now to stir up trouble, which could not be further from the truth.

You hit the nail on the head with your earlier suggestion:

What if a vociferous minority of political agenda driven zealots are exploiting morris as a vehicle for stirring up media attention and racial disharmony...???

Unfortunately that is our world, today.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 09:33 AM

Was there a telly crew and reporters about? I don't recall seeing anything to indicate that but you could well be right. I got the impression the clip was a 'stock' clip of the dancers and the incident was only reported after it happened.

D.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 07:54 AM

I have nothing against Morris Dancers. I suspect I know more Morris dancers than most. I suppose I do tend to think the music could frequently do with a bit of a kick up the bum with a more spirited rhythm section.

What i was saying was if the national pastimes had a league table - with watching telly being Manchester United. Morris dancing would somewhere round about Tranmere Rovers.

So how come a telly crew and reporters just happen to be on hand when some Morris dancers decide to dance in Brum town centre. A place usually associated with tight lipped Brummies dashing from one department store to another.
Then there are press releases to all the papers. Gotta be. Morris Dancing in front of Brum town hall is never even a news story.

Call me suspicious. but I spy dirty work afoot.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 05:46 AM

I packed in smoking cannabis in my early 20s.. 3 and a half decades ago..

When I walk from my front door to the town centre shops, I can usually smell it hanging over certain areas on the streets along my way...

.. and does it make me want to start again...??

does it be buggered... this modern high potency strain of weed stinks like a mix of burning shit and rubber..

no wonder it's called skunk... !!!! 😬


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM

I know the feeling, Joe. I stopped smoking cigarettes over 40 years ago, but - very occasionally - loved to smoke a decent Havana cigar (never inhaled, you understand). When the ban on smoking in public came in over here in the UK, that was the end of Havana cigars for me. They can't be smoked with pleasure outdoors and I've never smoked in the house or near the family. and - to be sure - it probably lessened my chances of getting cancer of the throat or jaw as well (remember Sigmund Freud). It also put more money in my pocket!

But - just now and then - I can recall the fragrance of those Havana cigars...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 03:19 AM

Hmmm. As an ex-smoker, I can't say I'm in favor of people giving up. I lament the lack of smokers at folk music gatherings nowadays. There's nobody left to scrounge an annual cigarette from...

Even my reliable North Carolina sources, have given it up. You people know who you are...

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Pariah
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 10:27 AM

Anent 18 Jan 17 - 07:28 AM;

You surely don't mean to say, Steve, that you would actually wish to live in a world where decency, common sense and sensitivity would trump (if you'll excuse the word) "the right[sic] of people to present themselves as they see fit", do you?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 04:37 AM

As Morris sides continue moving over to a less controversial disguise I would expect the general view to shift as they will then be explaining/justifying their change within the Morris fraternity.

Self-justification or like ex-smokers often being the most vociferous in favour of people giving up.

Shrewsbury Folk Festival was mentioned. Two or three years ago a black American performer did describe (on stage or in an streamed interview, I can't remember) their initial reactions to seeing blacked-up Morris dancers for the first time.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 03:51 AM

Joe, I hadn't even considered this in Canada or the US. That would be a very uncomfortable experience indeed.

My question is this, has blackface had the same racial connotation in the UK as it has definitely had on our side of the pond?

Either way I wish nobody was hurt.

One love, my friends.

I often wonder what legends like Stan Rogers and Pete Seeger thought about the black faced morris dancing.

Very interesting, regardless of how uncomfortable it is


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 03:50 AM

I can't help thinking the arguments put forward here are very similar to the ones put forward in the discussion of the Dutch Santa's little helper 'Black Pete'.

Black Pete : racism row

In that discussion defenders pull out the whole 'tradition, we've been doing it for ages, it's what we are' argument with a bit of 'PC gone mad' for added flavour. And while it may or may not be that the Saint's servant is a moorish pirate or not or whether there are racist overtones (in practice, there are, in the case of St Nicholas' assistant, IMHO)it doesn't really matter. People are offended and that should be reason enough to at least consider what the problem is and if anything can be done to make changes that form a comprise acceptable to all. Traditions are, after all, not set in stone.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jan 17 - 12:33 AM

This discussion has come up here at Mudcat on several occasions over the years. Early on, there seemed to be near-unanimous agreement among UK Mudcatters that blackface was a tradition that had nothing to do with racism, and that it must be preserved.

There are still many who think that, but I think that many others are changing their minds. We've seen a few extremists post here, who think maybe they can take advantage of this blackface tradition to promote their own racism. And there are others who are beginning to wonder how African immigrants feel about the blackface tradition, even though they may not speak out against it.

So, at least from this side of the pond, it appears that attitudes may be changing in the UK about blackface. In the US minstrel tradition, there's no question - blackface is racist, and there's no defense for performing in blackface in the U.S.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 11:08 PM

"I often wonder why tolerance is so often a one way street ?"

easy... the good guys are tolerant..

the bad guys aren't.....

left or right, religious or non believer..

ranters and zealots [and the sneaky silent noxious colluders..] are life force sucking socially dysfunctional arseholes..


Sounds to me like you just described perfectly the people who attacked the blacked-up Morris-Dancers, PFR. In a civilised society, nobody should be attacking and abusing anyone.

'Tolerance' is accepting the dancers' explanation of the reasons for, and meaning of, blacking-up.

'Intolerance' is attacking and abusing them, despite their honest assurances that blacking-up is in no way intended to mock or offend dark-skinned people but, rather, is a reference to disguising oneself in order to avoid accusations of begging.

Sometimes, it could be argued, 'offence' and 'intolerance' are precisely the same emotion.

IMHO, of course. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:59 PM

dysfunctional arseholes

I had one of them for ages. Loperamide sorted it out.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM

"I often wonder why tolerance is so often a one way street ?"

easy... the good guys are tolerant..

the bad guys aren't.....

left or right, religious or non believer..

ranters and zealots [and the sneaky silent noxious colluders..] are life force sucking socially dysfunctional arseholes.. 😣


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:59 PM

I often wonder why tolerance is so often a one way street ?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 01:07 PM

"ellipses" - bloody hell.. it's over 4 decades since i went to grammar school.. I needed to look that one up...

oh.. I see... nah I don't use "..." to indicate omissions...

I just have a bad habit of using the little dot buggers to represent pauses and time lapse.. like stopping for breath... or thought....

errrr..... a bit sorta like poetic / dramatic effect....... 😜

[also a bit more like a nervous tick really.....]

But enough about my increasingly crap as i get older writing skills...



Now back to the thread subject matter...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 12:55 PM

It was only convoluted bcause I was trying to cover whatever your ellipses (...) may have meant.

Did I imagine a link to a very measured response from a source that one might have expected to be more critical of the dancers?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 12:01 PM

eh...??? I just slapped together a quick simple metaphor while a bit bored, as much for my own amusement as to make any enlightening point...

.. but GUEST you've got me so confused with your convoluted interpretations of it,
that i might just end up disagreeing and falling out with myself...???? 😕 😜


Btw, I don't accept or condone aggressive abuse, or violent attacks on anyone
whether it be politically/religiously motivated, or pissheads and fuckwits lashing out at anyone a bit different to their boneheaded world views...

But I do strongly advise that blacked up morris think carefully about how they might be winding up the kind of folks who do want to have ago at them...

and take sensible and aware precautions in these increasingly austere & divisive times...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,jojofolkagogo
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:51 AM

The reference to use Woad is an excellent one - have just wiki'd and seen that blue Woad was used over 200 years or more ago, so that makes it certainly "traditional" - but I think blue or even lime green or pink would offend some - the quote "you cant please all the people all the time ... " comes to mind ... personally I feel it would be a shame to lose the traditional black - I still have a Golly-Wog !!   Jo


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 17 - 10:28 AM

I also just noticed the image of morris dancers folornly jumping around to the leaden beat of a drum, melodeon and badly strummed guitar in a shopping precint near you - will be a familiar one to many of us

None of the Morris sides I have ever seen folornly (sic) jump around. They are enthusiasts and enjoy it remendously. Nor can their music be descriped as leaden or badly played. If this is an example of you not 'slinging shit' I would hate to see what happens when you bend your mind to insults!

What on earth do you have against Morris dancers? Or am I missing the point again? If so, could you please explain?

DtG


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