|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jan 17 - 12:37 PM What if most UK citizens, whatever their colour, couldn't give a monkey's about the antics of a bunch of aging white blokes skipping about in feathers and boot polish...??? What if a vociferous minority of political agenda driven zealots are exploiting morris as a vehicle for stirring up media attention and racial disharmony...??? 😣 |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 12 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM What if any distress were caused as a result of people being told, as if it were fact, that the practice was disrespectful to black people? |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM has any official body said that it does cause distress and asked the morris teams to desist. if there is genuine distress being caused, then in my my mind there is no question. the tradition should go. as Jim said there was the same thing about wife beating and feminists. husband beating doesn't seem to get them so fired up. in a way - this was sort of overdue . The Stones had been getting grief about Under My Thumb, and Midnight Rambler since the 1960's. its not without precedent. The Wee Cooper of Fife doesn't get many outings these days, neither do Robert Johnsons blues about giving his old lady what for. As community and a movement we have dropped songs and practices before. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:49 AM ID imposter fun and games - ignore GUEST punkfolkrocker... |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Jon Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:36 AM Guess they need shooting GSS? ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Jon Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:31 AM From Chambers (who as well as the books provide one of the most useful apps on my Androids): Fabricant - noun (archaic) A manufacturer |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM the EFDSS not only miss an opportunity to lead decisively, they miss an opportunity to get national publicity, likewise the morris federations, all of them too busy pussyfooting in the style of beaux of london city |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM Fabricant..??? sounds like some kind of sci fi synthetic clone / android.. Looking at his photo, and the fact he is a tory... hmmm... perhaps he is...??? 😜 |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:14 AM Another local MP defends the Morris. Michael Fabricant, MP for Lichfield, "I'm a Morris dancer, I did it in Litchfield where there's a great tradition, there's absolutely no intention whatsoever to make out that you are a black person." |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:12 AM I would like to see EFDSS taking their responsibilties seriously and giving a clear and unequivocal lead one way or the other |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 12 Jan 17 - 08:18 AM no, it is not, it is sitting on the fence, and you have made an assumption on my view of the subject. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Manitas_at_home Date: 12 Jan 17 - 07:38 AM Dick, the EFDSS is giving a lead on this subject - just not the one you want. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Howard Jones Date: 12 Jan 17 - 03:59 AM Morris-ey, are you seriously suggesting that the English Folk Dance and Song Society should not have a view on what is probably the most popular, and certainly the most visible, form of English Folk Dance? Or that its opinion shouldn't carry weight? I know perfectly well what "nuanced" means, and I'm disappointed the EFDSS couldn't have made a statement which acknowledges the many shades of opinion on this topic. Even if it felt unable to defend the tradition, as I personally would have hoped, it could at least have done more to explain that, whatever the controversy over its possible origins, in the modern revival blacking up has no racist intent. Instead we get a statement which can be summarised as "this looks dodgy, we want nothing to do with it". I would have expected something more from an organisation which in its own words was originally established with the aim of saving and celebrating England's traditional folk songs and dances. However it now appears to have abandoned this and has become an arts organisation - with some success, admittedly, but increasingly irrelevant to many. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Jan 17 - 09:18 PM While we are mucking about with variations on the letters PC... That UKIP ranting GUEST [Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM]... Primitive Cunt... 😜 In the same way he'd force immigrants on a boat or plane to back where ever they came from.. I'd suggest shoving him in a time machine and effin him off back to the 18th Century.... BTW.. thanks so much for proving my earlier point about the types of folk infesting British Folk Music... |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:32 PM Ah, the voice of reason. 😂😂😂 |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM Why is everyone pondering to political correctness here, this is traditional BRITISH folk let those fuckers protesting and complaining go fuck themselves. Britain needs to reclaim it's culture, voting UKIP is a positive start folks. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:26 PM That thought went through my mind too. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,ripov Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:19 PM Not sure how to put this without upsetting someone, but - is it not strange that "Asians" (not 'black') were upset, and not Africans, in such a multicultural city? |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Morris-ey Date: 11 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM The EDFSS is as much an authority on modern Morris as the RSPCA. Also you don't seem know what "nuanced" means. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM All of them should be giving a lead including EFDSS, Morris a form of Folk Dance, or perhaps it isnt in Hull? |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 Jan 17 - 04:31 PM EFDSS is not the recognised institution when it comes to morris. There is The Morris Ring and there are other morris federations. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:25 PM The EFDSS should to be authorititave on this matter, the statement on their website is wishy washy, they should come down on one side or the other. my old friend Howard Jones has hit the nail on the head. "I am also disappointed that the EFDSS couldn't have taken a more nuanced approach and been more supportive. However it is now a branch of the Arts Industry rather than an organisation which supports folk traditions so its position on this is unsurprising." |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Guest Tim Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:17 PM My wife just asked, do these Morris Dancers have 10 inch shafts in keeping with political correctness. lol |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 17 - 02:19 PM i suppose it would be nice to get a definitive answer from an expert[...] Your joking I hope, Mr Red. I seem to live in a world of alternative truths, one where alignment with ideals yields the truth and (if my memory re Brexit is correct) one where experts may not be needed... back to topic... I'm not sure where I stand on this. I did very briefly belong to a Border Side (before deciding tunes were my real interest and favouring Irish sessions...) and never (and I guess still don't) saw anything sinister in people blacking up. On the other hand, I guess it might offend some and the suggestion of woad seems reasonable and is probably the route I'd prefer. (And if I ever returned to this stick bashing myself, I guess I could wear it despite the risks of being considered a pagan, or worse, a Tory...) |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 17 - 01:57 PM Certainly in Croydon, which is one of the most multicultural areas in the UK, so much so that you could probably hear anything up to 20 different worldwide languages within the space of 5 minutes' walking through the centre, to say nothing of the the many badly spoken local English accents - there are certain culprits who delight in jumping on anything as "racist" !!! |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Andrew Wigglesworth Date: 11 Jan 17 - 11:49 AM From: Big Al Whittle ... "i'm sorry Jim theres such a predictability about the Wrigglesworth post that that PC could stand for pathetically childish." Sorry Al, I genuinely haven't a clue what you're trying to say there (it's "Wigglesworth" btw). From: Howard Jones ... "I am also disappointed that the EFDSS couldn't have taken a more nuanced approach and been more supportive. However it is now a branch of the Arts Industry rather than an organisation which supports folk traditions so its position on this is unsurprising." I think there is some truth in those words, and I'm also rather disappointed but unsurprised. Jim Carroll ... I have a great deal of sympathy for what you're saying, or, rather, I can see the point that you're getting at and it is a reasonable contribution. Personally, putting on a disguise in the form of makeup, whilst dressed and dancing as a Morris dancer does not come anywhere near blood sports or Lancashire Granny Hurling (it does sound like a Bill Tidy thing). The "moral outrage" shown by some organisations who seem to want sensationalist publicity I would put almost on a level with tabloid journalists who want sensationalist headlines. Morris dancing gets little enough support in the media (none, or ridicule/disdain usually in, say, popular TV) that I find it quite distressing to find it in the middle of such a febrile debate with many characterising it in openly prejudiced or even offensive language. Despite some of the silly words written here about conspiracies led Morris dancers and parts of a right-wing establishment, Morris is not is a strong position. There are no paid lobbyists, no real political mileage for supporting it, lots of scope for attacking what's seen as a soft easy target. Any "support" on this issue from the likes of the Daily Mail I would shun. It's a classic example of a political debate being held on entirely enemy ground. Morris dancing may lose this one, it'll continue to exist, but the position of racism in our society will not have shifted one iota. If "politically correct" simply means the use of the "correct" language and the "correct" outwards appearances whilst not challenging and in fact maintaining exploitative economic systems ... then I will maintain a right to criticise those who profess it in that way. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jan 17 - 10:52 AM publicity for morris dancing, anyhow |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jan 17 - 10:42 AM "Jim - you may attach no value to dancing in a way that this blokes grandfather and great grandfather danced," I do Al - honestly. I said at the beginning that I have no real problems with blacking up in regards to Morris, (some of by friends have been Morris Dancers, but I wouldn't like one to marry my sister (joke!!) I think we should be aware of the possibility of giving offence and avoid them were possible - there really are ways around it rather than stating "it's our tradition, so there!!". If we're honest, many of these customs are revivals rather than part of a continuum, so where's the harm in adapting them to meet changing times? I have little tome for strident demonstrations against these practices, I just say that, in the present circumstances, I understand where some of them are coming from. "Tradition" has been used to cover a multitude of sins in the past - dog-fighting, kicking matches bear baiting, cock-fighting..... and don't get me started about that 'killing for pleasure' foxhunting mob! I can't remember the cartoonist (maybe it was Bill Tidy) who summed the whole thing up with his Lancashire 'Grannie Hurling' Olymics'. I have to say, I was one who protested loudly when feminists took offence at many of our folk songs - there was a way around that one too. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: GUEST,Guest Tim Date: 11 Jan 17 - 10:25 AM You may be interested, this made Jeremy Vine this lunchtime... |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Jan 17 - 10:12 AM I see sponsorship etc... Not sure of your point, Al. There are some traditions that are worth keeping and some that are lousy and deserve to be done away with. In my opinion of course. DtG |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM i'm sorry Jim theres such a predictability about the Wrigglesworth post that that PC could stand for pathetically childish. i can sympathise with the requests for a more nuanced approach. if your group have been doing their dances that way for over a hundred years - it must feel like a tradition. i remember when i was a kid at grammar school this kid came from America, and he said to us - how come you guys don't have any traditions? our school in america had loads of traditions. upon talking to him - it turned out his American school only dated back to the 1930's. but this kid thought the traditions were big deal. our grammar school in Boston dated back to Henry VIII, and there was a tower in the grounds belonging to Lord Hussey whom Henry had decapitated. yet somehow wehad less traditions...what i'm saying is Jim - you may attach no value to dancing in a way that this blokes grandfather and great grandfather danced, because you suspect it was racist in origin. but why is your suspicion more valuable than these blokes traditions. anyway. i sort of agree if it DOES cause distress, we shouldn't indulge in a traditional practice. but i wouldn't give an inch to the Dave spart/Wolfie mouthie gits that you traditionally line up with. its a lousy tradition. it causes me distress. i wish you would stop. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Jan 17 - 10:01 AM One of the dancers has reported the incident to the police as harassment and abuse. Maybe it is cynical of me but I sponsorship by the Daily Mail in the offing... DtG |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Jan 17 - 09:16 AM The obvious point that may need re-emphasising is that whilst black face morris might not in itself be inherently racist, what really matters is how individuals within morris sides may be exploiting that traditional folk art to further their own personal agendas of petty minded xenophobia and intolerance...??? In this particular instance in Brum city centre I have my suspicions... Naturally, any stage managed protests by the activists accused of abusing the poor misunderstood black face morris side, are playing straight into the hands of right wing press media who can manipulate and discredit any progressive voices of resistance and multicultural solidarity to appear as PC gone mad... 😣 Btw... Citizen Smith was a popular sit com of stereotypes that could raise a good laugh from all sides of the political divide.. even if the writers may have been more biased towards an establishment viewpoint...??? Classic British TV of it's era !!! |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 17 - 09:10 AM I tend never to take Tory buffoons seriously, Dick. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jan 17 - 08:42 AM Steve, no.He is Asian and he does not find it offensive, his views on anything else are not relevant, we need to be fighting racism, for example people being abused because of their colour or segregated because of their colour, or refused jobs because they are irish or if they are romanian hearing that Farage would be uncomforetable with them as neighbours. Farage lives in Downe in kent a village, where i used to live in the 1950s and 1960s, there is still hardly any, if any black people living there it is white wealthy and middle class with expensive property prices |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Jan 17 - 06:24 AM Sajid Javid has never, in my experience, ever opened his mouth and uttered anything even remotely sensible on any topic, I think we can safely let that one go, Keith. 😂 |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 11 Jan 17 - 06:20 AM Bromsgrove Advertiser, "Bromsgrove MP Sajid Javid denied traditional Morris dancers with black face paint are racist. Writing on Twitter, he said: "Proud of traditional Morris dancers from Alvechurch (in my constituency). They are as racist as I am #PloughMonday." " |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Jan 17 - 05:46 AM Modern day 'guisers Click and scroll down a little. :D tG |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Jan 17 - 05:33 AM If the fundamental purpose of the 'black face' is to celebrate a tradition of rural criminality and to appear menacing.. Then I'd see no problem with the pragmatic adoption of armed robber thug style black stockings or balaclava ski masks... These are clearly visually powerful disguises that resound with contemporary imagery whilst upholding a tradition of underworld activity.... I do agree that the black face makeup looks very effective as a purely artistic theatrical visual device, but it is not a mask - more of a direct transformation of skin colour.. and that is overladen with too much contentious and confrontational ideological baggage in this 21st cent multicultural society. I'd argue that serious creative artists should feel free to refer to to and directly use minstrel imagery in furtherance af intelligent theatre, performance and gallery works of art.. But a bunch of provincial Jeremy Clarksons that might constitute a mediocre morris side are hardly on a level with the bad boy Banksys and Damien Hirsts* of modern agit prop art...??? 😬 [*.. and any of those other ones who's names I cant remember this early in the morning - time for first mug of strong black tea..] |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Jan 17 - 04:36 AM The ifs, buts and maybes of blacking up we discussed on here at considerable length only recently. The problem is that the "experts" do not agree, and there is very little hard evidence on either side of the argument. The waters are undoubtedly muddied by the minstrelsy craze. My own opinion favours the disguise argument, since blacking up is most associated with the begging customs such as Border and Molly (the Plough Monday customs are little more than demanding money with menaces). If minstrelsy were the origin, why did Cotswold morris not adopt blacking up? Surely the south Midlands were just as exposed to the minstrelsy craze as the Borders and East Anglia, and it certainly adopted some minstrel tunes, so why did they not black up? However the origins are probably irrelevant in a modern multicultural society. We can't expect a casual audience to know, or care, about the origins of a tradition, they will form their own conclusions based on what they see. Whilst I think it takes a lot of imagination (or perhaps too little) to look at a morris dancer and think they are impersonating a black person, this is the perspective of a white person with some knowledge of folk customs. It is understandable that the uninformed, especially if they are black, see only the blacked up faces and jump to conclusions. So what to do about it? Had this happened to any other culture celebrating their traditional customs it would probably be regarded as a hate crime. Dancing blacked up in such a multicultural city as Birmingham might be seen by some as provocative, but a poll by the Birmingham Mail following the incident showed that the majority of respondents supported the dancers, and at least one of the supportive quotes was from someone with an Asian name. Using a different colour is the obvious solution which many sides have adopted, but while this can be striking I don't think they have the same visual impact as black, neither are they as successful as a disguise. Shropshire Bedlams have changed to wearing masks, but I haven't yet seen these live. I think some sides which continue to black up could do more to explain the custom, both on their websites and at events (maybe hand out leaflets?). I regret the move away from blacking up, as I don't think the alternatives are as effective, but I think it is probably inevitable. I think we will lose something, but if it means the morris can continue to thrive perhaps this has to be accepted. I am also disappointed that the EFDSS couldn't have taken a more nuanced approach and been more supportive. However it is now a branch of the Arts Industry rather than an organisation which supports folk traditions so its position on this is unsurprising. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Jan 17 - 04:31 AM ... now if "PC" became universally accepted to stand for "Progressive Compassion"... 😎 though thinking about it... "Politically Correct" is already absolutely spot on... because the dim witted use of "PC" as a dismissive insult by the reactionary right indicates clearly that they are utterly "Politically Wrong"... .. Pillock Conservatives...!!! 😜 |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM "I think you should find out who the Tooting Popular Front are. Al is indulging in satire." I know who Wolfie's crowd are M a.t., I always took them to be sit-comers rather than examples of satire - now, Jonathan Swift, on the other hand..... I took it, based on Al's earlier remarks, that he was taking a poke at us "P.C.ers" and "do-gooders" If I misunderstood, I aplologise, of course Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jan 17 - 04:02 AM RTIM,you have answered the question that should be sufficient, your post of 8 49 was the correct way to answer, unlike the slghtly unpleasant 7 54pm post, please take note. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Manitas_at_home Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:36 AM Jim, I think you should find out who the Tooting Popular Front are. Al is indulging in satire. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:31 AM Didn't quite finish "I've never believed that there's any such thing as PC, just common decency and sensitivity" This seems to have been one of the most sensible statements in this argument Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:30 AM "Tooting Popular Front stand up to the crypto fascist running dogs of mudcat." Name-calling is not particularly helpful in these discussions Al - it's too easy to pin on labels and avoid the realities of the argument - "P.C", "do-gooders" and "bleeding hearts" have all become terms of insult in order to excuse injustices an d inequalities in our society and those who persist in using them need to work out the opposites of their meanings. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Jan 17 - 10:38 PM well fair enough - if the experts say its non essential. that should be good enough for everyone, its a thing of the past. lets all drop it! |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: RTim Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:49 PM The EFDSS stated: Following the decision of Shrewsbury Folk Festival not to programme dance sides that "black-up" and the ensuing publicity this brought, EFDSS would like to be clear about its position. As we understand, historically dancers used soot or burnt cork to disguise their faces but there is evidence to suggest that the boot-polish, full-face, blacking-up tradition gained popularity during the boom of the late 19th Century Minstrelsy tradition. EFDSS wants to engage all people in the folk arts, regardless of sex, age, race and religion, so we do not support actions that can alienate sectors of the community. We use contemporary images of dance sides that disguise their faces with the use of masks or non-black paint and patterns in our print, online, and teaching resources, and engage such dance sides for EFDSS events and education projects. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:43 PM Tooting Popular Front stand up to the crypto fascist running dogs of mudcat. for those of us not in the know - what is EFDSS's clear and unambiguous line on black face morris man. not that i'm thinking of becoming one. |
|
Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk From: JP2 Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:15 PM Silurian Morris are based in Ledbury,Herefordshire not Shropshire! |
| Share Thread: |
