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Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II

Related threads:
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III (23)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants (125) (closed)


Richie 18 Feb 17 - 02:21 PM
Richie 17 Feb 17 - 08:29 PM
Richie 17 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM
Richie 16 Feb 17 - 09:20 PM
Richie 16 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM
Richie 15 Feb 17 - 10:29 PM
Richie 13 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM
Richie 13 Feb 17 - 10:35 AM
Richie 12 Feb 17 - 08:03 PM
Richie 12 Feb 17 - 02:20 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Feb 17 - 04:12 AM
Stewie 11 Feb 17 - 10:17 PM
Stewie 11 Feb 17 - 10:07 PM
Richie 11 Feb 17 - 08:06 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM
Richie 09 Feb 17 - 10:00 PM
Steve Gardham 09 Feb 17 - 03:39 PM
Richie 09 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM
Richie 09 Feb 17 - 10:44 AM
Richie 09 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM
Richie 08 Feb 17 - 11:30 PM
Richie 08 Feb 17 - 07:24 PM
Richie 08 Feb 17 - 04:25 PM
Richie 07 Feb 17 - 11:21 PM
Richie 07 Feb 17 - 08:49 PM
Steve Gardham 05 Feb 17 - 04:42 AM
Steve Gardham 05 Feb 17 - 04:40 AM
Richie 04 Feb 17 - 10:26 PM
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Richie 04 Feb 17 - 01:06 AM
Richie 04 Feb 17 - 12:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:21 PM

Hi,

TY for all who have contributed to these threads. As the thread gets long it's hard to see what's in it and it takes a while to pull up-- so I'm starting Died for Love: Part III. Joe Offer will be closing this thread soon.

Please post on the new thread-- Died for Love: III --as we explore the various Died for Love songs and their relatives,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 08:29 PM

Hi,

Here's a Scottish variant with a similar chorus. The Irish version is quite different. I haven't finished transcribing it- here's the link:http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/2963;jsessionid=1C4C81736E7156DDE9806817C824057D

Love is Bonnie (Love is Pleasing)- sung by Willie Mathieson, of Aberdeenshire, 1952.

I left my father I left my mother,
I left my brother and sisters too,
I left my home and kind relations
For the sake to go with you.

CHORUS: Love is bonnie, bonnie, bonnie
A little whilie when it is new
As it grows older it aye grows colder
Fades away like the morning dew.

I wish my parents never whistled,
I wish my parents never sung;
I wish the cradle had never rocked me,
I wish I'd died, when I was young.

CHORUS

I wish I wish but in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
A maid again I never can be
Till the orange grows on the apple tree.

CHORUS

O lassies, lassies, heed my warning,
. . to false men
They're like the dew on a summer morning
. . .learn to love again

[text incomplete] If you can add to-- it please do. Comments or other versions welcome!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM

Hi,

This an Irish variant of I believe, "Love is teasing" from the recitation of Mary O'Donnell, Toberdoney, Dervock, Co. Antrim before 1897

1. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, [2] but love is bonnie,
A wee while just when it is new ; [3]
But when it's old, love, it then grows cold, love
And fades away like the morning dew.      

2. Oh! Johnnie, Johnnie, but you are nice, love,
You are the first love that ere I had ; [4]
You are the first love that ere I had,      
So come kiss me, Johnnie, before ye gang.      

3. One kiss of my lips you ne'er shall get, love,      
Nor in my arms [5] you ne'er shall lie,      
Until you grant me that one request, love,
That oftentime you did me deny.      

4. All for to grant you that one request, love,      
I might as well on you my heart bestow;
For as good a lover as you may come,
And who can hinder your [6] love to go.      

5. It's love doth come, yes,[7] and love doth go,
Like the wee sma'[8] birds intill their nests;
If it's [9] to tell you all that I know,
The lad's naw here that I love best.      

6. If he was here that's to be my dear
I'd cast those angry frowns away;
If he was here that's to be my dear,      
I'd scarce have power to say him nay,      

7. It's ower the moss, love, ye needna cross, love,
Nor through the mire ye needna ride;      
For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, love,
And you may to choose your ain self a bride. [10]      

8. It's had I known, the first time I kissed you,      
Young woman's heart's love were so hard to win.
I would have locked it all in a chest, love,
And screwed it tight with a silver pin.      

2. Motherwell suggested that "Johnie, Johnie" in his version was a corruption for "nonnie; nonnie," as there is no character named ''Johnie'' in the plot of the "Jamie Douglas" ballad. It is just possible that the name has been taken from the Antrim version.

3. A variation of the second line is " A little time while it is new," but I prefer the more archaic version, though this agrees more closely with Allan Ramsay's, because it is more likely that the older form has been modernised than that the original has been Doricised; and, besides, Ramsay was as fond of repolishing these "auld sangs" as the Bishop himself, so that his versions cannot always be considered literally indisputable.

4. A variation of the third line is "You are the first love that ere I knew." It was probably for variety's sake.

5. Pronounced "a-rums."

6. A variation for "your love" is "you, love."

7. "Yes" is often omitted..

8. For "wee sma" I have heard "little small."

9. For "it's " some say "it was."

10. These two last lines are sometimes sung thus:

"For I hae gotten a new sweetheart, and you
May go choose your ain self a bride.".

Taken from On the Antrim version of "Waly, Waly." Ulster Journal of Archaeology, Series II Vol. 3 Pages 144/148; published in 1897,
BY J. JOHNSTON ABRAHAM, T.C.D.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:20 PM

Hi,

I wrote part of my Love is Teasing headnotes just now. I'm sharing the rough draft here since it's short:

Although "Love Is Teasing" also titled "Love Is Pleasing[1]" has its own Roud number, 1049, the song will be inexorably linked to "Waly, Waly" because the "Love is Teasing" identifying stanza appears, although amended, as a central stanza in Waly, Waly. Other stanzas from "Waly Waly, are also held in common, linking the songs to an ancestry much different than the Died for Love Songs.

The role of "Died for Love" is usually secondary and stanzas found in "Love Is Teasing" are usually floaters or filler stanzas of which all three songs and their relative songs occasionally share. Conversely stanzas from Waly, Waly are rarely found in Died For Love since Died for Love is influenced by different early broadsides: Nelly's Constancy and the similar The Jealous Lover (or, The Damosel's Complaint) with borrowing from the parallel broadside, "Constant Lady and the False-Hearted Squire." "Died for Love" is also related to or part of the "Alehouse" stanzas, the suicide (Rambling Boy/Cruel Father) stanzas, The Foolish Girl stanzas, the "I Wish, I Wish" stanzas and the Died for Love ending (Dig my grave both wide. . .). Of these diverse elements, only the "I Wish, I Wish" stanzas seem to have kept a tie with Love is Teasing and the relationship is distant in most cases.

Perhaps this relationship with "I Wish" is caused by the stanza found in Arthur's Seat, a broadside with stanza in common with Waly, Waly:

Oh, oh! if my young Babe were born,
and set upon the Nurses Knee,
And I my self were dead and gone,
for a Maid again I'le never be.

Arthur's seat also has the "Should I be bound that may go free?/should I Love them that Loves not me?" found in other songs in the extended "Died for Love" family. The close relationship between "The Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies" broadsides and "Must I Go Bound," "Deep in Love" as well as sharing with "Waly, Waly" creates a complex relationship that can only be understood specific song texts.

In "Love is Teasin' " by Lucy Stewart of Aberdeenshire, from the family of Fetterangus Stewarts, the Love is Teasing stanzas at the beginning seem to simply replace the "Died for Love" stanzas about the alehouse, infidelity and money, as if they were interchangeable-- the last three stanzas are kept. It's easy to conceptualize how this could occur since both songs are about the lost of love and abandonment.

Comments?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM

Hi,

With some trepidation I'm proceeding on with some related versions. This variant is "Love is Pleasing" or, "Love is Teasing" which appears to be old - this first stanza from Lucy Stewart dates back-- by my estimation-- to the late 1700s at least. I can't hear the end of that stanza- so I'll put a link. The association with Waly, Waly is clear and her third stanza has been traced to the early to mid- 1500s.

Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/gd/play/46994;jsessionid=5F02D24184955117B06896608D08E06D

Love is Teasin'

Oh whit needs I go busk an' braw
Oh whit needs I tae cam my hair
When my false lover has me forsaken
And he says he'll never love me [any mair,]
And he says he'll never love me [any mair.]

I leaned my back into an oak [aik]
I thought it was a truty tree
At first it stood till its branches grew
And shaded my false love tae me
And shaded my false love tae me

Love it is teasin', love it is freezin' [sic]
A little while, [when] it is new,
But as it grows older, it grows the colder
And it fades awa' like the mornin dew.
And it fades awa' like the mornin dew.

Oh when my aperon was tae me shin,
My love he keepit my company,
But noo my aperon is tae my chin,
And he passes the door and he never looks in, [stops]

Oh when my aperon it come down,
My love he keepit my company,
But noo my aperon is tae my chin,
And he passes the door and he never looks in,
And he passes the door and he never looks in.

I wish my baby it was born,
And sit upon the nurse's knee,
And me in the grave now was laid
And the green, green grass waving over me
And the green, green grass waving over me.

I wish I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again,
But a maid again I ne'er can be
Till the orange grows on the apple tree
Till the orange grows on the apple tree.

The first verse as given by Burns who must have heard it in the late 1700s:

O wherefore should I busk my head?        
Or wherefore should I kame my hair?        
For my true Love has me forsook,        
And says he'll never lo'e me mair.        

Why "busk an braw"? What's a definition? Will someone ck and correct my quick transcription?

I'm not sure how to separate this from Waly, but assume Love is Teasin' is considered a separate yet related song. In "Stewart Style, 1513-1542: Essays on the Court of James V" comes this stanza:

Hey trollie lollie, love is jolly
A whyll whyll it is new;
When it is old it growis full cold:
Woe worth the love untrew.

which continues:

Underneath the grein wood trie
Ther thy good love bidis thee,

whyll= while

Not sure how all this fits together yet. Anyone have some ideas? Certainly Waly was attached to Jamie Douglas and two stanzas are in common- what about the Burns then?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:29 PM

Hi,

I've roughed in the headnotes for Irish ballad 7J. I Know My Love (by His Way of Walking) here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7j-i-know-my-love.aspx

It's curious that a fairly well known ballad would stem from one well know traditional version from Donat Nono about 1904. Helen Laird's first version published in April 1904 had two stanzas and a chorus.

Does anyone know of traditional versions other than these?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM

Hi,

The source of the Rena Hicks' version "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy" and the Buna Hicks' version "Rude and Rambling Boy" is Rebecca Harmon.

Buna got it directly from her mother-in-law, Rebecca. Roby Monroe, (Buna's husband) and Ben Hicks (Rena's father-in-law) were brothers and sons of Rebecca.

This is important because Rebecca (1842-1919) was Council Harmon's daughter and "Old Counce" was progenitor of the ballads and Jack tales for the family in the early 1800s.

Counce got his ballads from grandfather Big Sammy 1753-1835 who he lived with after his father Andrew Harmon was killed by a tree when Counce was very young. Big Sammy and his father David brought the ballads from Virginia before the Revolutionary War. David was a loyalist and apparently came to the mountains to avoid the rising conflicts with England.

So there's a good chance this ballad is from the 1700s. Here's Buna's version which seems to be more accurate:

Rude and Rambling Boy- sung by Buna Hicks of Beech Mountain, NC collected in 1941, collected by Frank and Anne Warner.
Learned from her mother-in-law Rebecca Harmon Hicks.

I am a rude and a rambling boy,
And a rude and a rambling boy I'll be;
I give this world, I am but sure
If I had she knew she loved me so.

Her old father came this to know,
That his daughter loved me so,
He cursed, he swore among them all
He swore he'd use the cannonball.

He came home so late at night
A-grieving for his heart's delight.
Upstairs he run, the door he broke,
He found her hung by her own bed rope.

Out with his knife, and he cut her down,
And in her bosom a letter he found;
Said: Dig my grave, both deep and wide;
And bury sweet William by my side.

All on my breast lay a turtle dove,
To show the world I she died for love.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 13 Feb 17 - 10:35 AM

Hi,

Both "Love has Brought Me to Despair" and "She's like the Swallow" are based on stanzas taken from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire," dated c.1686.

"The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" is based on two broadsides printed on a single sheet: printed on a single sheet by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke" c. 1628: "The Deceased Maiden Lover" and "The Faithlesse Lover." They can be viewed here:
https://ebba.english.ucsb.edu/ballad/30059/image

Then there's lutenist Robert Johnson's "A Forlorn Lover's Complaint" (As I walked forth one summer's day) which is four stanzas found in "The Deceased Maiden Lover." Johnson died in 1633 so it would seem that the nine stanza "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an expansion based on Johnson's work.

Does anyone know if Johnson's tune is Bonny Nell? Or the date of Johnson's composition?

The Oxford Magazine, Volume 25 gives a date of 1610 and I've given it a date of c. 1611 based on earlier research which I can't find.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 08:03 PM

Hi,

This is a version from Songs Sung in the Southern Appalachians, by Mellinger Henry, London c.1934. Taken from Rena Hicks, the wife of dulcimer maker Nathan Hicks and the niece of Buna Hicks, who also had the same family version, "Rude and Rambling Boy," probably from Rena's source.

It's loosely based on "Cruel Father" broadside (my B version) which has the 'rambling boy' opening. After the cruel father discovers his daughter is in love with the "wild and roving lad" the father presses him to sea, where the lad is killed by a cannonball. His ghost haunts the father that night and later his daughter hangs herself leaving a note that blames her father. It ends with the "Died for Love" stanza.

The second half of stanza one a corruption of "Nelly's Constancy" a broadside of 1686, which begins in later versions: "I love you Willie." One indication of the age of this version is that she was hung by her own "bed rope" a term that precedes the mid-1800s.


I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy- sung by Rena Hick of Beech Mountain, NC collected in December 1933 by Melinger Henry.

I am a rambling rowdy boy,
A rambling still I be;
I give this world,
If that she knowed I loved her so.

Her old father caused this to know,
That he loved his daughter so,
He carried her away.

He[1] swore against them all
That he would use his cannonball,
He came home so late at night
A-grieving for his heart's delight.

Upstairs he run, the door he broke,
And he found her hung there by her own bed rope—
Out with his knife, he cut her down,
And in her bosom a letter he found:

Go dig my grave, both deep and wide;
Bury Sweet William by my side,
While friends and relative a-weeping around.

While there she lay beneath the ground,
There came a turtle dove,
To show the world
That she died for love.

1. Originally "She" throughout which makes no sense but it's "He" in Buna's version.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 02:20 PM

Hi Stewie, how are things down under? I was under the impression that the Suzanne Thomas version was derived from Berzilla's. It's a great version.

Steve, I do realize the enormity of Steve Roud's number system- and it's the best thing out there. I still check with Keefer's folk index and Traditional ballad index (which offers an analysis and recaps the story line. The problem for Roud is reading a title doesn't work and sometimes knowing the first line doesn't help. And in the case of Died for Love knowing the text doesn't always help!!!! To know where a song/ballad should be-- you have to know the text and underlying ballads. In the case of the WPA songs, they are housed at the University of Virginia with no access but they have been catalogued. Eventually much of the collected songs with be digitized but it will done be in the next generations. The hundred thousand songs housed in US collections will no longer be mysteries.

Even now there are important songs like-- "Early, Early, by the Break of Day" as sung Robert Cinnamond of County Antrim, Ireland, recorded by Robert Kennedy, 1955-- that I don't have access to and don't know where to find. [Anyone know?]

Some books and theses in the 20s and 30s- you can't get copies of - even through libraries (in Florida the expense prohibits them from borrowing from other states). When I get one of these- I put the book on my site so other people can use it. The only way to get these books into the public's hands is to track them down and travel to the library or collection where they are-- a costly and time consuming endeavor.

Even a fairly recent version "Beam of Oak" collected by Leach in Labrador in the 1960s is not accessible- I had to buy the book- which should be here soon.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 17 - 04:12 AM

Thanks, Stewie!

Richie, regarding Steve's work. You of all people must realise that there is a mountain of work out there. Steve started out like me with thousands of 5x3 record cards but quickly realised the possibilities of computer data banks. He transferred to computer early on but I preferred my old record cards which I still have. (Swings and roundabouts IMO) The main advantage obviously with Steve is others can use his Indexes. With that amount of data speed is essential and sometimes there isn't time to sort out a complicated family of songs so they get lumped under one number. Sorting out these lumps I'm afraid is down to people like us. Steve doesn't blindly accept our suggestions. Most of the many corrections I've sent him he has accepted. Just one or two he baulks at, e.g., The Flash Lad/Wild and Wicked Youth he is finding hard to separate and I've had to leave Flash lad without a number in my latest book. The 2 songs have plot and a couple of stanzas in common, but different origins. There is therefore no definition of a Roud number. He generally includes everything in English that has ever appeared in Folksong anthologies. I have separate indexes for Folk song collected in England and those collected in other English-speaking countries. This enables a relatively small manageable core study without excluding everything else. And of course I also have a broadside index and a few specialised indexes such as shanties/carols/forces songs/children's songs, foreign language ballads, Music Hall......


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Stewie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 10:17 PM

I should mention that she was Edmundson at that time and reverted to maiden name Thomas later. Listening to the track again after several decades, it is clear that it is not the solo effort that I had in my memory.

Thanks for the threads, Richie and Steve. Fascinating stuff!

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Stewie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 10:07 PM

There's fine rendition of 'Love has brought me to despair' by Suzanne Thomas when she was a member of Hot Mud Family. The lyrics are basically the same as the Berzilla Wallin version posted in previous thread.

You can listen to it here - it begins at 2:30:

Hot Mud Family

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 17 - 08:06 PM

TY Steve,

Another to add to the long number of texts (over 200) which I just finished sorting out!!! I'm understanding his 4th stanza source after looking at "Blue Eyed Boy" also known as "Sailor Boy"- see Kidson's title.

I've finished some of the related versions that are different ballads:

Love Has Left me to Despair: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7b-love-has-brought-me-to-despair.aspx

She's Like the Swallow: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7h-shes-like-the-swallow.aspx

Every Night When The Sun Goes In:
http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7d-every-night-when-the-sun-goes-in.aspx

Here are the attached ballads so far:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William

7B. Love Has Brought Me To Despair

7C. Sheffield Park (The Unfortunate Maid)

7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In

7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir

7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy

7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day

7H. She's Like the Swallow

There will be several more.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Feb 17 - 01:38 PM

I'm sure some light will be shed with your diligence and help, but Steve is just as confused as the rest of us.

As per request my uncle's version of 18828.

Recorded 19th May 1967 from Harold Sykes of Hull aged 40. He could not remember where he picked it up but it must have been either in the Royal Navy just after the war or the Royal Airforce some time after. He was a great favourite in the Sods' operas.

A man returning home one night
Once found his house without a light.
He went upstairs to go to bed
When a sudden thought came to his head.

He went into his daughter's room,
And found her hanging from a beam.
He took his knife and cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found.

Oh, Lord, I wish my babe was born,
And all my troubles they were gone,
So dig my grave and dig it deep
And place white lilies at my feet.

My love was for a sailor boy,
Who sailed upon the ocean blue,
So if you find one good and true
Don't change an old love for a new.

They dug her grave and dug it deep,
And placed white lilies at her feet,
And at her head a turtle dove,
To prove that she had died for love.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:00 PM

Hi Steve,

I appreciate all you've done for me and the broadsides and versions you've shared so generously with me and in this thread which hopefully will be used by others.

With "Died for love" there's also a lot of sharing :) Since you know Steve Roud and he is a very bright guy as well- perhaps a definition of what a Roud number is might help. There's no written definition of what Roud 60 is and what ballads or songs it includes and why it includes them. Even the additional Roud numbers which have helped, do not seem to be understood. [At least the Traditional Ballad Index has been way off- calling Roud 18830 Beam of Oak and then listing versions of Cruel Father/Renwick's "Oh Willie." Apparently they didn't understand that it was Rambling Boy-- or is it? Without someone saying what it is - who knows] This is the problem with shared texts and I don't think shared stanzas is the only criteria to be considered when grouping ballads.

The general lack of understanding of the basic underlying broadsides seems to have been the downfall of many but thanks to you maybe some light will be shed.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 03:39 PM

You're going to need a very powerful computer program to sort out this tangled mess.

I use a simple stanza marking system A, B, C etc. and it still looks chaotic using this when I've got it all down on paper.

The situation c1800 is complex enough, but then start adding all the British variants in c1900, and then the American .....Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

Good luck if you can find any further subvariants in 60.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM

As a bonus I just figured out the text to Punt's stanza III, and propery organized the lines-- here it is corrected:

III. Down in the meadows then she run,
To gather flowers as they sprung:
But of every sort she plucked, she pulled,
Until she gained her apron full.

Another mystery brought about by Vaughan Williams handwriting solved :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 10:44 AM

Hi,

After checking it appears Karpeles 4th stanza of "She's like a swallow" sung by John Hunt, Dunville in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, 1930 is also part of "Love has Brought Me."

It's the 5th stanza of False Lovyer (Brought Me to Despair) as sung by James Punt of East Horndon, Essex on 23 April, 1904. Tune noted by R. Vaughan Williams.

I. Her father bin a noble knight,
Her mother bin, a lady bright:
I bin, an only child of her
False lovyer brought me to despair.

II. There is a flower some people say,
Will give ease by night and day;
But if I could that flower find
'Twould ease my heart and cheer my mind."

III. Down in the meadows then she run,
To gather flowers as they sprung:
But of every sar[1] she plucked,
she pulled until she gained her apron full.

IV. Then unto her father's house she run,
Told them over one by one,
But (of) all the flowers she could not find
Would ease her heart and cheer her mind.

V. O yonder he stands on yonder hill,
He's got a heart as hard as steel,
He's gained two hearts in the room of one
And he'll be a true lover when I am gone.

1. The beginning of this line is confused and the MS is hard to read- possible "sar" could be "flower". Also could be "sat."

* * * *

This shows that Karpeles stanza 4 has become part of the tradition of "Constant Lady" giving a stronger case for the "She's Like a Swallow" ballad being derived mainly from it.

It's curious to note that in the JFSS 1906 (see: google Books online) this stanza is attributed to Mr. Broomfield, also of Essex, who sang a version. When if you look at the MS it was James punt only that sang this stanza:

V. O yonder he stands on yonder hill,
He's got a heart as hard as steel,
He's gained two hearts in the room of one
And he'll be a true lover when I am gone.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

Hi,

Here are the second part of my opening notes on 7H. She's like a Swallow, which is a brief analysis of the important Karpeles version collected in NL in 1930:

The first stanza has been used as a chorus. It has a unusual jump from 3rd person narrative to first person narrative in the last line:

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high [3rd person narrative]
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore.
I love my love and love is no more. [1st person narrative]

After the shift to 1st person in the last line, the 2nd stanza begins in 3rd person: "'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go." This obvious corruption is mitigated by a shift to 3rd person for the last line:

1. She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry.
She's like the sunshine all on the lee shore,
She loves her love but she'll love no more.

Karpeles changed the text she collected when it was first published in 1934. She eliminated the 4th stanza derived from Brisk Young Sailor (also collected by Sharp in Cambridgeshire) which was corrupt being only three lines:

4 There are a man on yonder hill,
He got a heart as hard as stone.
He have two hearts instead of one,
. . . . .

and the 5th stanza with a corrupt last line which she probably didn't recognize as stanza 17 of "Constant Lady." Here's how Karpeles 5th stanza should appear:

5 How foolish must that girl be   
For to think I love no other but she.
For the world was not meant for one alone,
The world was meant for every one.

She then repeated the first stanza. Here's the result[], after eliminating the 4th and 5th stanza, which she published in 1934 (reprinted in 1971):

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore,
I love my love and love is no more.

2 'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go
Picking the beautiful prim-e-rose;
The more she plucked the more she pulled
Until she got her a-per-on full

3 It is out of those roses she made a bed,
A stony pillow for her head,
She laid her down, no word did say
Until this fair maid's heart did break.

4 She's like the swallow that flies so high,
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore,
I love my love and love is no more.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:30 PM

Hi,

Here's the first text collected:

She's like a swallow- sung by John Hunt, Dunville in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland, 1930.

1 She's like the swallow that flies so high [sim, Fair and Tender YL]
She's like the river that never runs dry,
She's like the sunshine on the lee shore.
I love my love and love is no more. [sim. Sharp "I Love my Love"]

2 'Twas out in the garden this fair maid did go, [Stanza 12]
Picking the beautiful prim-e-rose;
The more she plucked the more she pulled
Until she got her whole a-per-on full.

3 It is out of those roses she made a bed, [stanza 15 CL]
A stony pillow for her head.
Now this fair maid she lay down, no word did she say
Until this fair maid's heart was broke.

4 There are a man on yonder hill, [broadside Brisk Young Sailor]
He got a heart as hard as stone.
He have two hearts instead of one.
[How foolish must that girl be             [stanza 17 CL]
For to think I love no other but she.

5 For the world was not meant for one alone, [stanza 17 CL cont'd]
The world was meant for every one.]

* * * *

This is made up of 1 stanza original, 3 stanzas of "Constant Lady" and 1 stanza of Brisk Young Sailor:

12. The Lady round the meadow run,
"And gather'd flowers as they sprung;
Of every sort she there did pull,
Until she got her apron full.

15. The green ground served as a bed,
And flowers, a pillow for her head;
She laid her down, and nothing spoke:
Alas! for love her heart was broke.

There is a man on yonder hill,
He has a heart as hard as steel,
He has two hearts instead of one,
He'll be a rogue when I am gone.

17. "Did she think I so fond could be,
That I could fancy none but she?
Man was not made for one alone;
I took delight to hear her moan."

Clearly it's similar to, or based on, "Constant Lady" and related to Died for Love. There five traditional texts of She's Like A Swallow-- all are longer. The first stanza is unique but parts of it are found in tradition- line 1. Come All You Fair and Tender Ladies and line 4. I Love my Love - Sharp EFSSA.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 07:24 PM

Hi,

The other song/ballad that I believe is ultimately based on the Constant Lady broadside is the more popular "She's Like the Swallow" found in Canada. It also borrows from Died for Love and other related ballads/broadsides.

I'm preparing some notes on the relationship. Comments are welcome,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:25 PM

Hi,

I discovered that a version "Oxford Tragedy" was printed in the Polka Song Book, No. 15, London, 1848 p. 517. Steve Roud apparently has a copy. Anyone else have a link or text?

Here's one US version from Hubbard, Ballads and Songs from Utah, 1961. This was taken from his mother who contributed 134 songs and ballads and twenty-nine fragments.

Love Has Brought Me To Despair-- sung by Salley A. Hubbard of Salt Lake City, Sept. 2, 1942. She leaned it when she was a child about 1874 from her aunt, Mrs. Sarah Call, of Willard.

In Halifax town in Hampshire, Yorkshire,
As I walked out to take the air,
A-viewing the fields and valleys all round,
At length I heard a mournful sound.

My father is a noble lord,
Likewise my mother some lady fair,
And I am the only daughter and heir;
True love has brought me to despair.

I wish I was where I might be,
In my love's arms who's oft kissed me,
In my love's arms who's oft kissed me,
How happy, happy I would be![1]

There is a flower, that I've heard say,
It'll cure sad hearts by night and day.
O, that that flower I could but find,
'Twould ease my heart and cure my mind.

Away into the garden she went,
A-gathering flowers was her intent,
A-gathering flowers just as they fell
Until she gathered her apron full.

She chose the green grass for her bed,
A pillow of roses beneath her head.
She laid herself down bur never again spoke;
Poor girl, poor girl, her heart was broke.

1. This stanza is a corruption of the chorus of "My Blue-Eyed Boy."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:21 PM

Hi,

Here's what the ballad index has:

Love Has Brought Me to Despair [Laws P25]

DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a girl telling of the grief her false love has left her. She seeks a flower in the meadow to ease her mind; none meet her needs. She makes a bed of flowers, asks for a marble stone on her grave and a turtle dove at her breast, and dies
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1827 (Lyle-Crawfurd1)
KEYWORDS: death separation flowers grief
FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,Ro) Britain(England(Lond,North,South),(Scotland(Aber,Bord)))
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Laws P25, "Love Has Brought Me to Despair"
GreigDuncan6 1170, "In Halifax Town" (1 text, 1 tune)
Lyle-Crawfurd1 43, "Slighted Love" (1 text)
Reeves-Circle 34, "Died of Love" (2 texts)
BroadwoodCarols, pp. 92-95, "Died of Love or A brisk young lad he courted me" (1 short text, 1 tune)
OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly2 52, "There Is an Alehouse" (1 text, 1 tune)
RoudBishop #42, "A Brisk Young Sailor" (1 text, 1 tune)
Brewster 58, "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Combs/Wilgus 116, p. 176, "The Auxville Love" (1 text)
JHCox 144, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (1 text)
Hubbard, #28, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT 824, LOVDISPR*
Roud #60
RECORDINGS:
Dillard Chandler, "I Wish My Baby Was Born" (on Chandler01, DarkHoll)
Geoff Ling, "Died for Love" (on Voice10)
Dellie Norton, "When I Wore My Apron Low" (on DarkHoll)
Berzilla Wallin, "Love Has Brought Me To Despair" (on OldLove, DarkHoll)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24]
cf. "Tavern in the Town"
NOTES: This song has close ties with "Tavern in the Town," often sharing stanzas and, of course, a similarity of plot. Roud, in fact, lumps them (which seems a bit excessive to me). This may help explain why Laws failed to note either the Combs or the Cox version. - RBW
* * * *

1) They list it as a version of Roud 60-- the Constant Lady broadside is a different ballad -- with a similar theme- but it's clearly different. Ballads based on Constant Lady need a different Roud number.

2) The notes are completely wrong "Tavern in the Town" is usually considered to be "There is a Taven" a composed version of Brisk Young lover" with a chorus borrowed from "Adieu, Adieu (Radoo)." Maybe they meant "Alehouse"?

3) Only Berzilla Wallin's recording is a version of Love Had Brought."

4) Of the 12 citations (I don't have OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly2 52, "There Is an Alehouse"-- can anyone post?) most are versions of Died for Love with one stanza borrowed from Constant Lady. There are dozens of these. Most of the actual versions of "Love has Brought" are not even mentioned.

5) And most importantly-- Even though Belden wrote about it in 1940 (see my last post) they don't even mention "Constant Lady" as the source broadside.

In my opinion- this is a problem,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:49 PM

Hi,

Thanks Steve I need the Crawfurd-- I think its "Slighted Love" sung by Elizabeth Macqueen, originally from Ireland; Lyle-Crawfurd 43.

Becasue of Constant Lady's influence on (borrowed stanzas) the Died for Love and Love has Brought Me to Despair I wrote out the headnotes to Love has Left Me in Despair. If you look at the notes to Traditional Ballad Index you'll see it left them in despair too!

To read all the notes (several pages): http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7b-love-has-brought-me-to-despair.aspx Here is the last portion (rough draft- watch out for danging participles!!!):

The Traditional Ballad Index has listed a number of versions of the Died for Love family that have a stanza or two similar to, or based on, the broadside "Constant Lady." This is wrong. The criteria for inclusion for any ballad to be listed as a "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" ballad must be the Constant Lady's 4th stanza with the last line: "Yet Love has brought me to despair." If these words from the 4th stanza are missing them the ballad can only be based on the broadside "Constant Lady and the false-hearted Squire."

Belden in this Songs and Ballads" notes, 1940, addresses the issue, although it should be noted that "The Deceased Maiden Love" does not adequately compare to "Constant Lady" and that the ending of Pitts' "Sheffield Park" is a borrowing from Consant Lady." Here are Belden's notes[]:

One other feature, frequent in English ballads having a similar story but not found in any text[1] of The Butcher Boy, should be mentioned. In two seventeenth century broadsides, The Deceased Maiden Lover and The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire (Roxburghe Ballads I 260-2 and VIII 635-6), in Sheffield, Park (Pitts; also in oral tradition in Hampshire, see above), in Lancashire and Hertfordshire texts of A Brisk Young Sailor (JFSS V 183-9), in the Dorset There was Three Worms on Yonder Hill, in an Essex text of Died for Love (JFSS II 158-9)--all having a story something like that of The Butcher Boy--the girl does not hang herself but, like Ophelia, goes in search of flowers to cure the wounds of love makes a bed of them, and dies thereon (or, sometimes, dies and is covered with flowers and grass by her loving mistress). This element appears also in an otherwise unrelated song from North Carolina, Dearest Billie (MSNC 7).

Belden's first footnote present evidence of the "heart's-ease" flower found in Constant Lady stanza 13:

1. Rather, in any printed text. In two texts privately communicated to me by Barry in 1917, one from, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and one from Deerfieid, Massachusetts, the girl runs thru the meadows gathering flowers, for

There is a flower that I've heard say
'Tis called hearts-ease both night and day,
And if that flower I could find,
'Twould ease my heart and please my mind.

The former of these has also the 'apron high' motif.

While this evidence shows the influence of "Constant Lady" and its inclusion in a "Died for Love" song, Belden does not say they are all versions of "Love Had Brought Me to Despair" which is exactly my point: Love Has Brought Me to Despair is Constant Lady with the fours stanza present.

Cox, in his lengthy notes to "Love Had Brought Me to Despair" in Folk Songs from the South (1925), fails to identify "Constant Lady" as the ballad's source.

My conclusion is:

1) Constant Lady is a different ballad than Died for Love.
2) Some Died for Love ballads have borrowed stanzas from Constant Lady which has also provided one common ending: She laid her down, and nothing spoke:/ Alas! for love her heart was broke.
3) Versions similar to, or based on, the "Constant Lady" broadside that are missing stanza 4 (the Love Has Brought Me to Despair stanza) are versions of "Constant Lady[].
4) Versions with stanzas from "Constant Lady" that include stanza 4 (the Love Has Brought Me to Despair stanza) are versions of "Love Has Brought Me to Despair."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:42 AM

Hamer is May Bradley The Willow Tree which you've just posted.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Feb 17 - 04:40 AM

Kidson broadside c1890-1900


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:26 PM

Hi Steve,

Need Green Groves, Hamer p46 and date on Kidson broadside. I've got a lot of work to do- so I won't be getting far ahead. still haven't looked much at Deep in Love and Must I go Bound.

I'm still working on US versions which are many,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:28 PM

Richie, you are racing ahead and because I'm trying to complete other projects I'm struggling to keep up with you. However, I'll do what I can when I can.

My Blue-eyed Boy versions in brief. Ask if you can't decipher any of them.

Belden 478 (4)
Huntington-Henry SotP 391 & 392
Greig Duncan 6 p19
Sandberg 324
Green Groves, hamer p46
Pound 212
I actually catalogued the Kidson sheet for them!!!!! Memory going!
Beech Mountain, Henry 50
Fowke, LaRena Clark p96.
Brewster 339
Owens 93
McNeil 18
The Gam, Huntington 224

You probably have all of these.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:05 PM

Richie,
Just as a matter of interest, is this historical info you are now posting available on your website? If it isn't it certainly should be.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:07 PM

Hi,

I put two old versions the Kidson broadside (Sailor Boy)and the music to the gypsy "Willow Tree' on my site here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7f-my-blue-eyed-boy-.aspx

Steve if you could date the Kidson broadside Sailor Boy it would be helpful. I'll email original.

Here's the version from Kendal, Westmorland:

Christmas Eve and After by Thomas William Thompson July 1909

But 'this loitering profiteth nothing,' so let me hasten to add
that Shandres was at home, and was mending his fiddle. When
this had been successfully accomplished he very kindly consented
to play for us, and, once begun, he played on and on, passed from
one tune to another, dance-music and Christmas-carols, songs and
hymns all coming alike to him. As he remembered some almost
forgotten melody a beaming smile lit up his still handsome face,
and never Avas he more pleased than when he played and sang
a beautiful and pathetic old folk-song:

[Willow Tree- sung by Shandres of Kendal, Westmorland]

As I passed by a willow tree,
A leaf fell down and followed me ;
I picked it up, it would not break ;
My love passed by, he would not speak.

'Speak, young man, and don't be shy,
You are the only one for me:
If you can't love one, you can't love two;
Never change the old one for the new.

'I wish my heart was made of glass,
That you might view it through and through,
Might view the secret of my heart —
How dearly, dearly I love you.'

Then give me back that one I love,
O! give, O! give him back to me;
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be. [1]


1 There are a large number of variants of this song, which was a favourite with the old Gypsies. It is still remembered by the Gypsies of the Eastern Counties as well as by those of the North Country. The tune was recorded by the Misses M. and N. Dixon of Kendal. The third and fourth verses are sung to the same tune as verse two.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 10:08 AM

Hi,

As far as "Blue-eyed Boy" it looks like the UK versions are "My Love He Is a Sailor Boy/Lad" Besides the version collected by Grieg and other under the title "Bring me back the one I love." A similar song with a new stanza and title is 'willow tree'. Here's one version:

THE WILLOW TREE
Sung by May Bradley, Shropshire

As I passed by a willow tree, willow tree,
That willow leaf blew down on me.
I picked it up, it would not break.
I passed my love, he would not speak.

Oh, speak, young man, and don't be shy, be shy,
I'm not a girl can pass you by,
For friends we met and friends we'll part,
Just take my hand but not my heart.

I wish your bosom was of glass, of glass,
That I could view it through and through,
Just view those secrets of your heart,
If I love one I can't love two.

Then give me back to the one I love, I love,
Oh, give, oh give him back to me,
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be.

My love he is a sailor boy, sailor boy,
He sails the ocean through and through,
And when he gets so far away,
He hardly thinks no more of me.

Now give me back to the one I love, I love,
Oh give, oh give him back to me,
If I only had that one I love,
How happy, happy should I be.

i consider this to be a variant of the same song. However, I'm just working on this now. Other UK versions? How old is "Willow Tree"? Other versions of "Bring me back the one I love"? Any info would be helpful.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 09:53 AM

Hey,

This was back in the late 1980s when I found my grandfather MS. At that time, believe it or not, The Kingston Trio did not know of the 1929 recording, Alan Lomax did not know it, Frank Warner did not know it and at that time I thought perhaps mistakenly that it was new information.
The other thing is, as far as copyright law, Frank Proffitt has the right to his arrangement of the song including his text. If Kingston Trio knew about the Grayson and Whittier [his name is actually Whitter] recording- sorry I said Burnett and Rutherford- said it was from memory ;) then they could have claimed their version was based on a previously record folk song. Probably Kingston Trio redid or changed the melody- I know they out a pause in the chorus: Hand down your head---Tom Dooley and used Proffitt's text.

Richie


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Subject: Re: Tom Dooley's origins
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 02:16 AM

And noone seemed to know it!!!

Does it count when it's in a published book? ;-)

Paul Slade in bis 2015 book "Unprepared to Die: America's Greatest Murder Ballads and the True Crime Stories That Inspired Them" gives Grayson & Whitter's September 1929 recording as the first version of "Tom Dooley" on disc.   Gilliam Grayson was the nephew of James Grayson who helped arresting Tom Dula.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 01:06 AM

Hi,

Since we are talking about Blue-Eyed Boy and Nathan Hicks who built the dulcimer for my grandfather and was his informant. I'll tell you the story of Tom Dooley. The Kingston Trio's 1958 cover of "Tom Dooley" an NC folk song about the murder of Laura Foster, sold millions of copies, and eventually Frank Warner pointed out he got the song from Nathan Hick's son-in-law Frank Proffitt. Nathan actually had little to do with the song- Proffitt got it from his great-aunt Nancy Prather [all reports say Nancy is his "aunt", no]. Tom Dooley supposedly started the "folk craze" of the early 60s was credited to it.

In my grandmother's diary dated about 1937 (this is all from memory) they went over to Frank Warner's apartment in NY and my grandfather who has just published Beech Mountain Ballads and was president of the Southern Folklore Association received the invite from Frank and Anne Warner. My grandfather convinced Frank Warner to go down and get a dulcimer and meet Nathan Hicks. So Frank wrote Hicks and went down around 1939 and came back and did recordings in 1940, one of the recordings was Frank Proffit's Tom Dooley, which Warner had learned and was performing (guitar/vocal). Warner recorded Tom Dooley and Alan Lomax liked it so much he included it in his book Folk Song: USA. The Kingston Trio members were looking for new songs in Lomax's book and they selected Tom Dooley- and the rest is history. And...Nathan Hick's dulcimer, somehow, in some remote way had something to do with it!

So I was looking through my grandfather's MS and in his scribble on a MS sheet was Tom Dooley, but there was no attribution but it clearly was in the 1930s. This was quite a few years ago and I thought- wow this might be valuable-- did he get it from Proffitt before Frank Warner in 1940. There was only the chorus and some scribble which might have been a verse.

Fank Proffitt got it from his great Aunt, and I found out that Frank Warner had managed to get Frank Proffitt some of the royalties-- this was after the Kingston Trio had royalties for 5 million records!!!

I got my grandfather scribbled MS of Tom Dooley and wanted to find out if it was worth anything- it really didn't matter much Frank Proffitt was dead. So after digging into the song a little deeper. I found out-- the copyright probably wasn't valid anyway- Burnett and Rutherford recorded it in the late 20s!!! And no seemed to know it!!!

It's like the copyright Clayton Pappy McMichen of the Skillet Lickers had on the famous folksong "in the Pines". His daughter Juanita showed me his copyright and her royalty statement- she was make a thousand dollars a year of his copyright of "In the Pines" in the late 1920s. He didn't write it, he was prob the 5th to record it and he didn't even name it "In the Pines" -- yet she got his royalties for people using and recording "In the Pines."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:14 AM

Hi Steve,

Interesting about US Blue-Eyed Boy- it has Must I Go Bound and Adieu (Radoo). It was recorded by Carter Family in 1929 and also Woody Guthrie in 1940- two fairly famous acts. I only know of the Carter Family from Chet (Atkins) I have a few funny stories about Chet (later) but we sat backstage in 1992 and talked about AP Carter and since Chet played with Maybelle, one of the original Carters, he knew many of there songs and toured with them for several years. Chet knows alot of AP's songs. AP was one of the great song collectors in the 20s and 30s- he collected the songs and the Carter Family recorded them! I know of Woody from Lily Mae Ledford's granddaughter and researching Lily Mae- she sang a "blue-eyed girl" song but it's a different song- which I still know many years later.

I've already started a way to sort them out. Here's Blue Eyed Boy: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7f-my-blue-eyed-boy-.aspx I put the Scottish version collected by Grieg that you sent. know any more?

Here's what I'm doing:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy;
7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Oxfordshire Tragedy; Love Has Brought Me to Despair;
7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" )
7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down)
7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor)
7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy)
7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts)

For each ballad or song that is somewhat related I'm doing a separate study. Except for 7A and 7C it won't take long. I've already started all of them and finished one 7D.

I'll tell you a story about Percy Grainger, pianist, composer, collector. I'm not sure of the exact details but it comes from my grandfather and grandmother to my father. Percy liked quirky feats of daring. So he stood in the front yard of my grandparents house and said he could throw a ball over the house and catch it in the back yard. My grandparent's house was rather wide and there were trees next to it and bushes. 'Impossible' said my grandfather, so they made a bet (not sure what the wager was or if there was one). Percy opened up the front door walked down the hall and opened up the back door. He went back outside to the front- threw the ball over the house- ran through the house and caught the ball on the other side!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 03:24 PM

Wow! That's history, Richie! Is there a family tree on your website?
More please!

Regarding the relationships between these songs, they nearly all consist of hybrids interspersed with commonplaces. I see little point in trying to trace the commonplaces. They'd already been jumping around since the 18th century. You'll drive yourself nuts if you try.

The British evolution is complicated enough but add in the further American diversification and you've got a zillion-piece jigsaw!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:35 AM

Hi,

It was funny getting Nathan Hicks old dulcimer of the shelf at my Mom's house in Maryland. Dusting it off I discovered that the strings must had been original, they were black, rusted and very loose-- I tuned it up but it was still tuned down 1 1/2 steps -- I was afraid I'd break the old rusted strings. So my niece Kara got a book with a few of my grandfather's melodies of Nathan's songs and I grabbed my nephew Zach and we went over to Bob's and did 5 folk songs without practicing- one after the other- one take. I was using a clothespin to push the dulcimer strings and a pick- and we jammed!!

Here's the link to us actually playing George Colon (sic): http://bluegrassmessengers.com/Data/Sites/1/avatars/02%20George%20Collon.mp3

Nathan's dulcimer is still at my mom's house. Bob and Sue moved to the Potomac, Zack's playing violin in New Mexico somewhere. Kara moved to the country. Maybe we can still make music again someday!!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:12 AM

Hi,

Rena, Nathan's Wife was a Hicks too, they were third cousins. And Uncle Sam Harmon's wife Pollyanna, she was a Hicks too. Uncle Sam, who move from Beech Mountain in the 1800s to TN, once said his grandfather Council was the one that came over from England but he didn't know. Old Counce's father Andrew was kilt when a tree fell over on him and Counce and his brother were sent to live with their grandfather Big Sammy Hicks. You might think that Big Sammy and his son Little Sammy might have come over from England- but no-- Big Sammy came over to the NC Mountains about the time of the skirmish with the Redcoat. Sammy's father David was a loyalist and he left James River long before his father Samuel left the James River and Tuckahoe Creek, Virginia. So you see Uncle Sam was way off about Old Counce his Grandfather coming from England.

Rena Hicks did keep a ballit box and she wrote down many of the Hicks family ballads. She was still around when my friend Thomas Burton ventured up to Beech Mountain in the early 70s. Henry collected a dozen songs from her in the early 1930s including "Rambling Rowdy Boy."

My father told me one of my grandfather's secrets. My grandfather always took a flask of whiskey with him in his back pocket on his "ballad bagging" trips. And after socializing a bit he'd invite some of the men-folk to partake. I don't know if it worked but I'm sure he enjoyed it. I never gto a chance to hear my grandfather sing-- there are only a few recordings of him made by the library of Congress in the 1930s. Here's a link with a photo of Nathan Hick's holding my grandfather's dulcimer that Nathan made: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-85-lady-alice.aspx You can hear me playing it if you click the link below the pic. Here's my grandfather's collected version of Butcher Boy:

THE BUTCHER BOY- sung by Mrs. Schell, Banner Elk, NC 1933

In yonder city where I did dwell
A butcher boy I loved so well;
He courted me my life away,
And then with me he would not stay.

There was a house in this same town--
My love would go and he would sit down,
He would take another girl upon his knee,
And tell her what he wouldn't tell me.

"Oh, mama, mama, can't you see,
How this boy has treated me?
His gold may scatter; his silver may fly;
I hope some day he be poor as I.

"Give me a cheer, and I will sit down-
A pen and ink to write it down.
I will write it down as you plainly see:
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me."'

After a while her father came home
Inquiring where his daughter had gone.
Upstairs he went; the door he broke;
He found her hanging by a rope.

He took his knife, he cut her down,
And on her breast these words he found:
"I will write it down so you can plainly see,
I once loved a boy that didn't love me.

"Go dig a grave both wide and deep
And a marble stone at my head and feet;
And on my breast put a little dove
To tell the world that I died for love."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 11:17 PM

Hi,

My father could only recall one trip to Beech Mountain to visit Nathan Hicks and he was about 7 years old at the time. They drove the car as far in the mountains as they could then pulled off the road and walked, and walked and walked.

When they got there Grandfather Matteson would go up on the porch with the grown ups. They told my father to go play with the children but when my father looked around there were no children there. He went into the yard -- all the children about half dozen were all hiding from him!!! Eventually he found Ray Hicks the eldest who was around 10 and already over six-foot tall. Ray was perhaps the best known tell of Jack tales in the world- passed down from great-grandfather Council Harmon and his children. Ray ended up being six feet six inches tall and was skinny as a rail.

My grandparents would send them money sometimes and the Hicks family were dirt poor but would send them hand0made Christmas presents and decorations every year. My grandfather bought a dulcimer and got one of his friends from NY Frank Warner to go down and buy one. Frank recorded the Hicks around 1940 and even played one of his son-in-laws songs, Tom Dooley that got to be pretty popular when redone by The Kingston Trio. It must have been a sad day when Nathan died, for Rena and Ray and Frank Proffitt too.

THE BLUE-EYED BOY, sung by Nathan Hicks August, 1933.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a boy that don't love me?
Must I then act the childish part,
And love a boy till he breaks my heart?

Refrain: Go, bring me baek my blue-eyed boy;
Go, bring my darling back to me;
Go, bring me back my blue-eyed boy
And happy ever I will be.

No, I'll not go bound while he goes free;
No, I'll not love a boy that don't love me;
No, I'll not act the childish part,
And love a boy till he breaks my heart.

ReJrain

Last night my true love told me that
He'd take me across the deep blue sea,
But now he's gone and left me alone-
A poor orphan girl without a home.

ReJrain

Right here in this little town
My true love gocs and he sits down,
He takes other girls upon his knee
And tells them things he won't tell me.

Refrain

My true love is like a little bird
That flies from tree to tree,
And while he's with some other girl,
He very seldom thinks of me.

Refrain


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:24 PM

Hi,

Here another puzzler. Where do this stanza come from? What broadside earlier song?

As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

It's in four or five versions of Butcher Boy/Blue Eyed Boy in the US. I've got it back to the early 1800s in the US. It appears similarly in other songs but the second line changes.

Here's an example, Belden's Blue-Eyed Boy version C:

C. 'Adieu.' Communicated to Miss Hamilton in 1911 by Shirley Hunt of the Kirksville Teachers College. Note the 'eavesdropping' introductory stanza, a favorite opening for the pastourelle type of street ballad.


As I walked out one evening fair
To view the plains and take the air
I overheard a young man say
He loved a girl that was going away.

Chorus: Adieu, adieu, my friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang my harp upon the willow
And bid this lonesome world adieu.

Go bring me back that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
Go bring me back the one I love
And happy I shall always be.

Must I be bound and you go free?
Must I love one that don't love me?
Or must I act a childish part
And stay with one that broke my heart?

Sometimes you think you have a friend
And one you always can depend;
But when you think that you have got,
'When tried will prove that you will not.

Notice this too has the "Adieu Adieu" Chorus as in several other songs including Radoo and There is a Tavern,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 10:16 PM

Thanks Lighter,

I used the "words in quotes" method in Google Books snippet view if you quote the beginning in Google books "In "Notes and Queries," once again published weekly" it may give you the sentence before that. I go the whole thing by doing that. Or going into snippet view and entering parts of what I had.
* * * *

In Blue-Eyed Boy Belden D is:

D. No title. Secured by Miss Hamilton in 1909 from Nita Stebbins of the West Plains High School, who described it as 'a country dance' which she learned, from an old woman who used to live in the country.'

As I walked out one morning in May
Gathering flowers all so gay,
I gathered white and I gathered blue
And little did I think what love could do.

Must I go bound, must you go free,
Must I love a pretty girl that won't love me?
Oh, no! no! it never can be,
For love like thee never conquered me.

Now compare that to "The Unfortunate Swain" From: The Merry Songster. 1770:

Down in a Meadow both fair and gay,
Plucking a Flowers the other day,
Plucking a Flower both red and blue,
I little thought what Love could do.

Where Love's planted there it grow,
It buds and blows much like any Rose;
And has so sweet and pleasant smell,
No Flower on Earth can it excell.

Must I be bound and she be free?
Must I love one that loves not me?
Why should I act such a childish Part
To love a Girl that will break my Heart.

So Steve was saying that Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies only has one stanza in common with Waly Waly.

Clearly the Must I Go Bound stanza is related to Blue Eyed Boy/Adieu, Adieu/Butcher Boy.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:41 PM

Crone's dates appear to be 1858-1945, and his name certainly sounds the most Ultonian. He may be the best bet of the three.

O Lochlainn lived into the 1960s and didn't grow up in Ulster, so it wasn't him.

I haven't found anything on O'Cassidy.

Maybe someone else will have better luck.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 08:31 PM

Hi,

Finally made it to the 1930s in the US/Canada versions. My grandfather collected and published along with Melinger Henry (Beech Mountain Ballads) a version of "Blue-Eyed Boy" and a version of "Butcher Boy." The Butcher Boy was from Banner Elk where he met Henry who had already published his first book in London. Henry collect a rare version of Cruel Father, my B version from Rena Hicks, Nathan's wife. Nathan was a dulcimer player and maker and I've played and recorded a few tunes on his dulcimer. Rena's song was "I Am a Rambling Rowdy Boy" and it has the "cannon ball" reference like Lomax's "Rambling Boy."

I remember my grandparents- both professional musicians- my grandmother was a concert pianist and my grandfather was a baritone singer who directed choirs and choral groups (the one at Banner Elk in 1933 for example where he met Henry)-- they would talk about the times Percy Granger came by the house and they would play piano duets and sing and Percy would tell stories and do odd things. Percy also collected a few versions before he moved to Americ-ka (as Ronnie Drew of Dubliners sang it).

Nathan's son-in-law Frank Proffitt also sang a version "Morning Fair" as did one several of the older relatives Sam Harmon and Jane Hicks Gentry. Jane's version has the "Must I Go Bound" stanza. The version Henry got from Uncle Sam Harmon, Old Counce's grandson is as follows. It was taken from his granddaughter:

A. Butcher's Boy. Obtained from Miss Rachel Tucker, Varnell, Georgia, who had it from her grandparents, Mr. and Mrs. Samuel Harmon, of Cade's Cove, Blount County, Tennessee, October, 1930.

1. In yonder city where I once dwell,
A Butcher's boy I loved so well;
He courted me my life away
And then with me he would not stay.

2. There was a house in this same town;
My love would go and he would sit down;
He would take another girl upon his knee,
And tell her what he wouldn't tell me.

3. "Oh, mama, mama, can't you see,
How this boy has treated me?
His gold may scatter; his silver may fly;
I hope some day he be poor as I.

4. "Give me a cheer, and I will sit down,
A pen and ink to write it down.
I will write it down as you plainly see:
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me.'"

5. After a while her father came home
Inquiring where his daughter had gone
Upstairs he went; the door he broke;
He found her hanging by a rope.

6. He tuk his knife; he cut her down
And on her breast these he found:
"I will write it down so you can plainly see,
'I once loved a boy that didn't love me.'

7. "Go, dig a grave both wide and deep
And a marble stone at my head and feet;
And on my breast put a little dove
To tell the world that I died for love."   

I'll post Nathan Hick's version of "Blue-Eyed Girl" later,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:32 PM

Ok Lighter- (or anyone that can help)

Here's the Irish version, it's in The Irish Book Lover - Volumes 9-13 - Page 130 by John Smyth Crone, ‎Seamus O'Cassidy, ‎Colm O Lochlainn - 1917. link: https://books.google.com/books?id=nI2jWRRmTfUC

I think the variant is from one of the authors but it's unclear. Here's the text:

[[[In "Notes and Queries," once again published weekly, for 10th April, Mr. Joesph J. MacSweeney pointed out the close resemblance between a poem by William Allingham "The Girl's Lamentation," an English folk song in Kidson and Neal's Collection, and a Gaelic song "Tiocfaidh an Samhradh," in Mrs. Costello's recent collection published by the Irish Folk Song Society. Being interested both in Allingham and folk songs, I sent the following note:

The theme of both poem and folk song-- the betrayal and desertion of a young girl is, of course, as old as the hills and wide as the world.
When I was a boy in rural Ulster in the sixties of last century I often heard a folk-song which I always considered the foundation upon which Allingham built. The words and the pathetic old Irish air to which it was sung cling to my memory yet. Here are a few stanzas which show a close resemblance to both poem and song:

There is a strange house in this town
Where my true love goes in and sits down,
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
And he tells her the tale that he once told me.

I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain,
I wish that I was a maid again,
A maid I was, but ne'er shall be
Till the apples grow on yon ivy tree.

I wish, I wish, now I'm all forlorn
I wish my baby it was born,
And sitting on its dada's knee,
And the long, green grass growing over me.

An esteemed Cork correspondent informs me that a memorial cross has recently been erected in St Joseph's Cemetery, Cork, over the grave of Timothy Murphy, who died on 13th April, 1919. . .]]]

I already post part of the Allingham-- I'm not sure of the relation ship with the-- Gaelic song "Tiocfaidh an Samhradh," in Mrs. Costello's recent collection-- which is "summertime is coming" and the translation of one version is not our ballad. Anyone know more about this Gaelic song?

I need to know who posted this song which he learned when he was small in the 1860s,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 07:20 PM

Hi Lighter,

Now we need a source- I found another Irish version with the apple/ivy from 1860s but I can't get the source because the book is on google.

Here's another hybrid from 1909 (Blue-Eyed Boy) I'll just give a few stanzas:

Go bring me baek that blue-eyed. boy,
Go bring my darling back to me,
But the loss of one is the gain of two,
And this is why I mourn for you.

Must I go bound while he goes free?
Must I love a fellow when he don't love me?
Or must I act the childish part
And love a fellow when he broke my heart?

Adieu, adieu, kind friends, adieu,
I can no longer stay with you.
I'll hang myself on a green willow tree
Unless he consents to marry me.

Remember me and bear in mind,
A good true friend is hard to find;
And when you find one good and true
Don't change the old one for the new.

This also has a stanza of Child 76. Notice the text for "Adieu"

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:59 PM

Hi,

Correction: There are several versions that are variants of Radoo/Adieu (used in Tavern) which also include Must I Go Bound-- and are related to the Blue-Eyed Boy songs and also to Child 76 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts).

(I wish, I wish, I wish I could type)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM

Hi,

There are several versions that are variants Radoo/Adieu (used in Tavern) which also include Must I Go Bound-- and are related to Blue-Eyed Boy songs and also to Child 78 "Lass of Roch Royal" (just the "Who will shoe my pretty little feet" parts).

Here's my point: Radoo (Adieu) is known as a separate song and it is independent of Tavern- and I believe older. Here's what Davis says in TBva:

"In other variants of the same combination song (see below)- this "Adieu" stanza appears after the "shoe my foot" stanzas or - and more generally - as a chorus."

Here's the song from Traditional Ballads of Virginia (under appendices):

[Adieu, Adieu] collected by Mr. John stone. Sung by Mrs. Nathaniel Stone, of Culpeper, Va. Culpeper County Nov. 15, 1916. With music.

1. "Adieu, kind friend, adieu, adieu,
I cannot linger long with you;
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land.
I'll bid farewell to all my fears
While I am in a foreign land."

2 "Must I go bond and you go free?
Must I go bond and you go free?
O, must I act the fooiie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?
O, must I act the foolie's part
And die for a man that would break my heart?"

"O, who will shoe those pretty little feet?
O, who will glove those lily-white hands?
O, who will kiss those ruby lips,
While I am in a foreign land?
O, who will kiss those ruby lips
While I am in a foreign land?"

"My father will shoe my pretty little feet;
My brother will glove my lily-white hands;
My mother'll kiss my ruby lips,
When you are in a foreign land.
My mother'll kiss my ruby lips
When you are in a foreign land"

Davis titled it "Lass of Roch Royal" but the stanzas are obvious floaters. Davis said Adieu is known in similar songs and is used as a chorus.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:18 PM

That's it, Richie.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:15 PM

Hi Steve- I agree great article, sources-- which I read three weeks ago and need to return when the fog clears.

Here's something for you that I had and recently saw again- it's a reduction of Nelly's Constancy from British Library transcribed by our old friend Baring-Gould's MS when he was looking through broadsides:

The Broken Hearted Lover's Garland circa 1740. Song IV "Nelly's Constancy to a new Tune. O.G. I. p. 103.

I lov'd you dearly I loved you well
I loved you dear(ly) no tongue can tell.
You love another, you love not me
You care not for my company.

You love another, I'll tell you why
Because she hath more means than I.
But means will waste love & means will fly
In time thou mayest have no more than I.

If I had gold (Love) thou shouldst have part
But as I've none (Love), thou hast my heart.
Thou hast my heart (Love) & free good will,
And in good troth I love thee still.

How often has your tongue this told,
You loved not for silver nor gold,
And thus to me you did impart,
And your desire was my heart.

Your tongue did so enchant my mind
Still I am & forever must be kind:
Though you prove false, yet I am true,
And so I'll bid false men adieu.

Richie


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