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Subject: Lyr Add: YE JACOBITES BY NAME (from Robert Burns) From: Dave Rado Date: 01 Feb 17 - 12:51 PM Hi I'm having trouble making sense of some of Burns' lyrics. I've put my queries inline in square brackets, within the lyrics, below: CHORUS: Ye Jacobites by name, give an ear, give an ear, Ye Jacobites by name, give an ear, [On almost all the recordings I've heard - with the one exception of the recording by Jean Redpath - even on recordings by respected Scottish singers such as The Corries, they sing "lend an ear," not "give an ear". According to Wikipedia, the Burns version was "give an ear" whereas in the pre-Burns, anti-Jacobite song it was "lend an ear" - so it seems odd to me that almost everyone sings "lend an ear", while using Burns words in the rest of the song. Is this in order to make it easier for English people because "lend an ear" is more commonly used in England? Or does anyone have any idea why this might be?] Ye Jacobites by name, Your fautes I will proclaim, Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear, you shall hear Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear. [I'm not really sure what this means but I'm guessing that by "your doctrines" he means "your obsession with reviving the lost Jacobite cause," which, he's arguing, can only lead to more war and pointless deaths. Is that right?] What is Right, and What is Wrang, by the law, by the law? What is Right and what is Wrang by the law? What is Right, and what is Wrang? A weak arm and a strang, A short sword, and a lang, for to draw, for to draw A short sword, and a lang, for to draw. [I'm guessing that this verse means that the Jacobites were insisting that Charlie was still the lawful king of Scotland, and he's saying, well maybe so, but they way to prove it is not by using might and the sword - the only thing that proves is who happens to have more might and a better sword. It doesn't prove who was actually right or wrong at all. Is that right?] What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar? What makes heroic strife famed afar? What makes heroic strife? To whet th' assassin's knife, Or haunt a Parent's life, wi' bluidy war? [I'm guessing that he's saying if you perpetuate the myth of heroism on the battlefield, all that happens is that people start murdering each other in the name of the cause - or worse still, pointless wars ensue - and in both cases, the real outcome is not anything heroic at all, but the ruined lives of the parents whose offspring are killed as a result. Is that right?] Then let your schemes alone, in the state, in the state, Then let your schemes alone in the state. So let your schemes alone, Adore the rising sun, And leave a man undone, to his fate, to his fate. And leave a man undone, to his fate. [I think I understand most of this last verse, but not all. In the last two lines, he's presumably saying "leave Bonnie Prince Charlie to his fate" - Charlie's "undone "(i.e. his cause has been well and truly lost), and no amount of scheming will change that. So, I'm guessing he's saying, instead of scheming to make the world a better place as you see it, appreciate how beautiful the world already is ("enjoy the rising sun"). Have I got that right so far? But the bit I don't understand in its context, is the phrase: "in the state". If he's written "for the state" it would have made sense to me. But why "in" the state?] Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 01 Feb 17 - 01:52 PM "lend an ear' is used, I'm sure, simply because it's long been, if not in common usage, at least in common knowledge. Even if someone started out singing 'give an ear", they would in all likelihood end up singing "lend an ear", making the change unconsciously. "Doctrines" would be all the rationale and argument behind and in support of the Jacobite cause. I think it's impossible now to pin down exactly what each phrase in the rest of the song means, but I would say you've got the gist of it, which is all you can hope for. Burns' audience probably would have got more precise meaning than is available to us. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: GUEST,Tinker from Chicago Date: 01 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM I think it's important to remember that the Jacobite uprising took place long before Burns was even born. Also, he didn't write this so much as rewrite it, and the song already existed in a much nastier form (with 13 verses). Check Wikipedia. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 01 Feb 17 - 02:51 PM I believe there were still those around who were promoting the Jacobite cause, which would be what inspired him to write the lyric. Burns was sympathetic with the Jacobites, but apparently did not see any wisdom in continue to pursue the cause. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: YE JACOBITES BY NAME (from Robert Burns) From: Thompson Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:24 PM From a collection of Burns' poems on archive.org: YE JACOBITES BY NAME Ye Jacobites by name, give an ear, give an ear. Ye Jacobites by name, give an ear. Ye Jacobites by name. Your fauts I will proclaim. Your doctrines I maun blame, you shall hear. What is Right, and What is Wrang, by the law, by the law? What is Right, and what is Wrang, by the law? What is Right, and what is Wrang? A short sword, and a lang, A weak arm and a Strang, for to draw. What makes heroic strife, famed afar, famed afar? What makes heroic strife, famed afar? What makes heroic strife? To whet th' assassin's knife. Or haunt a Parent's life, wi' blaidy war? Then let your schemes alone, in the state, in the state, Then let your schemes alone, in the State. Then let you schemes alone. Adore the rising sun. And leave a man undone, to his fate. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Tattie Bogle Date: 01 Feb 17 - 04:55 PM Yes, all the editions of Burns' poems and songs that we have here show it as "give an ear" - BUT, having learned it as "lend an ear", I'm afraid that's what I sing! And my understanding of the song is that Burns was actually poking fun at the Jacobites, rather than applauding them! And, to poke fun even more, I saw a West Lothian band sing this song, with the lead singer wearing a pair of giant-size, clip-on plastic ears! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: GUEST,Ray Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:10 PM "Lend an ear" - I remember Ian McCalman introducing it as a Jacobean ear-swapping song. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 01 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM Re. meself's post, if what he's blaming is the rationale for the the Jacobite cause rather than the fanaticism of those who continued who hold on to it, then that would surely imply he was anti-Jacobite, whereas I thought (and your second post seems to confirm you agree that) he was actually quite sympathetic to their cause, and was just criticising their fanaticism rather than their rationale? Regarding it being impossible to pin down what he meant, I'm sure someone who is a Burns fan could make a better fist of working out what he probably had in mind than I did in my guesses, and/or could elaborate on my guesses - and I'm still very puzzled by the phrase "in the state" in the final verse. Re. Tinker's post, the rebellion was only 11 years before Burns was born, and Jacobites were still plotting a comeback throughout his life. And I linked to the Wikipedia article and mentioned the original pre-Burns lyric in my original post. Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:19 PM "I'm sure someone who is a Burns fan could make a better fist of working out what he probably had in mind" I'm not going to repeat my thoughts about that - but if I'm wrong, we'll soon find out. So - I just don't think you're going to get the kind of exact meaning and logic you're looking for. Okay, so I'm repeating myself ... ! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 01 Feb 17 - 06:26 PM I take your point: undoubtedly, I overstated the case when I said, '"Doctrines" would be all the rationale and argument behind and in support of the Jacobite cause.' We could narrow it down to the rationale and argument in favour of violent uprising, assassination, etc., when the cause is lost, which seems to be what Burns is trying to get at. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: daithi Date: 02 Feb 17 - 04:26 AM Always thought the clue was in the use of the phrase "Jacobites by name" - I've interpreted this to mean those who are supporters in name only, and not true espousers of the cause. Any thoughts? :-) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: clueless don Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:33 AM As I look at these lyrics written out above, this songs seems to scan the same as the song "Oh, me name it is Sam Hall, Chimney Sweep, Chimney Sweep ...". Is it sung to the same tune? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 02 Feb 17 - 12:13 PM "I've interpreted this to mean those who are supporters in name only" That is a logical interpretation, but I don't think you will find any authority who would support it. First of all, if I remember correctly, Burns simply kept the phrase from the earlier, vehemently anti-Jacobite song, which perhaps was well-known, and was addressing dyed-in-the-wool Jacobites, not wannabes. Secondly, the phrase serves a rhetorical purpose, lingering on the idea of Jacobites, giving the listener time to get their brain in the proper gear, and rejects any possibility of 'moral equivalency' right off the bat. It has that sense of, 'Hey you! Yes, you! I'm talking to you' (or 'them'). Never heard JBN sung to the Sam Hall tune, or vice versa. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Thompson Date: 02 Feb 17 - 01:53 PM It's always a bit dodge to ascribe a 21st-century meaning to a 17th-century usage. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 02 Feb 17 - 02:14 PM That would be 18th century, presumably. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 02 Feb 17 - 02:18 PM I've always felt (wrongly perhaps) that "adore the rising sun" was a figurative way of saying "acknowledge and bow (as though in prayer) to King George of the newly installed House of Hanover." Cf. "the Sun King" (Louis XIV). I think "Jacobites by name" simply means "You who are called (i.e., are) Jacobites." I also suspect that the "right and wrang" lines mean "How does the Law of Nature determine right and wrong? Through strength and weakness only." In other words "(Righteous) might wielded by the (divinely appointed) King makes right." Except for the tune and the first stanza, Burns has written an entirely new (and better) song based on the views expressed in the tedious original. Considering Burns's affection for the Jacobite cause, his song might be thought of as a satire of the anti-Jacobite position. Surely Burns himself did not subscribe to the "Law of the Jungle" or "adore" the the House of Hanover. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 02 Feb 17 - 03:39 PM That's an interesting interpretation, and it makes a certain amount of sense. That 'adore the rising sun' line always struck as over-the-top; it seems likely it's ironic. The song seems to make sense as a kind of satire, but coming from a kind of disgruntled resignation. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 02 Feb 17 - 04:05 PM Thanks for that, Lighter - the more I think about it, the more I think you're right, and I finally feel that I understand the song. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 02 Feb 17 - 04:39 PM No, thank *you* for giving us an opportunity to look closely at the song. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: clueless don Date: 03 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM Well, I actually looked at the DT lyrics, and there is a "click to play" of the tune. Not exactly the same tune as I know for Sam Hall, but very similar. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 03 Feb 17 - 08:42 AM Also formerly used for "Captain Kidd," IIRC. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Snuffy Date: 03 Feb 17 - 10:29 AM Not forgetting "Benbow" - only minor differences between them all. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 03 Feb 17 - 11:37 AM Hi, Snuffy. But "Benbow" is in the major. (And "Kidd" is sung to that melody too.) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Snuffy Date: 03 Feb 17 - 11:51 AM Indeed they are. But is the major a different tune or are just a variant of the minor tune? Where is the line drawn that one can state "B is a variant of A, but C is a different tune"? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 03 Feb 17 - 12:46 PM Interesting. I was surprised that someone likened the Ye Jacobites and the Sam Hall tunes, because of the difference in modes - but then I thought of the dark, brooding Misty Mountains of Home being a variant of Oh, Dear, What Can the Matter Be?, and I'm starting to come round to the possibility .... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 03 Feb 17 - 12:46 PM Interesting. I was surprised that someone likened the Ye Jacobites and the Sam Hall tunes, because of the difference in modes - but then I thought of the dark, brooding Misty Mountains of Home being a variant of Oh, Dear, What Can the Matter Be?, and I'm starting to come round to the possibility .... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:29 PM > Misty Mountains of Home being a variant of Oh, Dear, What Can the Matter Be? Never thought of that one, but it seems to be too true. I don't suppose one can usefully talk about tunes that are secretly "the same" or "different" without specific qualification, but in my own mind they're different if the untutored listener (me) doesn't think, "Hey, that sounds almost exactly like ...!" That means modal and minor versions of major tunes (and each other) are almost always "different" tunes. The tune to "Sam Hall" currently sung is not the one that used to be popular. That was closer to the old tune(s) of "Captain Kidd." Bertrand Bronson wrote a famous article on "Sam Hall" 's family tree in the 1940's. Another relative is the hymn "Wondrous Love," though I don't think many people would say it was "the same" as any of the others. (Its tune used to be identified in the early nineteenth century as "Captain Kidd," leaving us to draw our own conclusions. I think it's the most powerful of all.) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:12 PM Regarding Lighter's first post, I don't think Burns meant - even ironically - by "adore the rising sun" that you should bow to King George. Given what he wrote in the previous verses, and in the last two lines of the final verse, I think it's more likely that he's just urging Jacobites to accept the things they cannot change, and appreciate that the world, though not as they'd ideally like it to be, is still a beautiful place. All the rest of the poem seems to be saying that he's sympathetic to the Jacobite cause in principle, but not to there being any more insurrections, so your interpretation of that line doesn't make sense to me in that context. I think you may be half right about the "Right and Wrang" verse - I think he may well have been saying that the law in those days was determined by might, whether you like it or not - although if so, he's not saying that what's right or wrong is determined by might, but rather that what is right or wrong by the law is determined by might. However, I disagree with what you wrote about the divinely appointed King. The theme of the whole of rest of the poem seems to me to be that fighting over a lost cause, however worthy it may be in principle, just leads to pointless death and suffering (a plea against fanaticism.) So if he's saying that the law is determined by might, then I think his underlying message would have been that one might not like that, but the alternative to accepting it is to "haunt a parent's life wi' bluidy war". Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:14 PM PS - previous post was by me. I didn't realise I wasn't logged in. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:52 PM Regarding clueless don's post, the Wikipedia article about the Sam Hall song says: Regarding the metrics and the melody, the version common in the British Isles ("Oh my name it is Sam Hall, chimney sweep...") appeared to be based on the tune "Ye Jacobites by Name" (Roud # 5517), whereas the version more common in the USA ("My name it is Sam Hall, T'is Sam Hall...") is a variant of the tune to "Frog Went A-Courting" (Roud # 16). So the tune of Sam Hall (in its British version) was a variant on the tune of Ye Jacobites by Name, rather than the other way around. Both the Wikipedia article about Ye Jacobites by Name and the Wikipedia article about My Love's in Germany state that Burns took the tune for Ye Jacobites by Name from the tune of My Love's in Germany - and the two tunes are indeed identical - for instance there's a youtube recording of My Love's in Germany here. So the tune seems to have been written for My Love's in Germany, then taken up by Burns for Ye Jacobites by Name, and later switched to the minor key for Sam Hall. As meself mentioned, this is indeed similar to the way the tune of Oh Dear What Can the Matter Be was switched to the minor key in The Mist Covered Mountains of Home - and that tune was later made even more haunting by Jim McLean in the variant of it that he wrote for Smile in your Sleep. It's fascinating how folk songs evolve over time! However, the Wikipedia article about My Love's in Germany says it was published in 1794, which was not long before Burns published Ye Jacobites by Name. So the pre-Burns Ye Jacobites by Name song must have had a completely different tune. I can't find any information regarding that tune - I imagine it's lost in the mists of time. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 03 Feb 17 - 07:01 PM Regarding variants of Oh Dear What Can the Matter Be, there's also the Three Old Ladies song, of course. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 03 Feb 17 - 07:20 PM I don't know - "adore the rising sun" as an admonition to be taken literally strikes me as, with all due respect, far-fetched. Just doesn't seem in keeping with the oblique phraseology throughout the rest of the song, and does not seem Burnsian more generally. Although, as I think about it, I'm starting to see how it could be taken to mean, Be grateful that you've lived to see another day, and not thrown your life away for a lost cause ... hmmm .... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Mo the caller Date: 04 Feb 17 - 04:59 AM Right then. The Wiki original version has a verse He is the King of Reef, I'll declare, I'll declare, He is the King of Reef, I'll declare, He is the King of Reef, Of a Robber and o' Thief, To rest void of Relief when he's near. So what was reef in this context - online dictionary gives "verb (used with object) 2.to shorten (sail) by tying in one or more reefs. 3.to reduce the length of (a topmast, a bowsprit, etc.), as by lowering, sliding inboard, or the like. 4.to pull (old oakum) out of seams, as with a rave hook (often followed by out)." and the Burns glossary "Reef, Rief Plenty" None of those seem to fit. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:11 AM I believe the intended word is "reif," a Scots word for plunder or theft. (It's related to "reiver.") Not sure, at this point, whether "To rest void of relief" makes any sense. Will think about it. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: meself Date: 04 Feb 17 - 11:16 AM NB The 'reif' verse is NOT from the Burns' version. This could get confusing, if we start trying to hash out both sets of lyrics here. (Having said that - the sense of "To rest void of relief", in context, seems to be that there is no hope/help/relief when said king is in the neighbourhood). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 04 Feb 17 - 12:53 PM Wikipedia seems not to give a source for its "old" version. Not very helpful. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:18 PM I wonder if there might have been an bit of wordplay with Jacobin, with the implication being "forget that old royalist stuff, and go for the real revolutionary stuff they're doing in France." |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Lighter Date: 05 Feb 17 - 05:28 PM OK, the late Bruce Olson posted the original words at his website some years ago. http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/SONGTXT1.HTM Olson gives the source as "The Battle of Falkirk Garland" (1746). The song's title is "An Excellent new Song on the Jacobites, and the Opression of the Rebels, to the Tune of, Captain Kidd." "And o' Thief" must be a misprint for "and a Thief," but I still can't make logical sense of "To rest void of Relief, when he's near," unless it applies (ungrammatically and without warning) to his victims. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Tattie Bogle Date: 05 Feb 17 - 09:27 PM I think there is a huge chunk of over-interpretation going on here re similarities or otherwise in tunes. The fact is that hundreds, nay, thousands of poems share the same meter, so can easily be set to the same tune. Just think of songs Iike "Tramps and Hawkers" - several songs to the same tune, and again for "Star of the County Down". And conversely, there are many different tunes that share the same meter, but not the same melody, e.g. Ye Jacobites, Sam Hall, Captain Kidd: to my mind, they are not they are NOT the same tunes, nor even changed modes of the same tune: they just share something like the same rhythm. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 06 Feb 17 - 08:34 PM Hi Tattie Bogle I don't think there has been any interpretation here, over or otherwise. The fact that tune of The Mist Covered Mountains of Home was based on that of Johnny's so Long at the Fair has been documented in hundreds of places; and Jim McLean himself said that he modified the tune of The Mist Covered Mountains of Home when he wrote Smile in Your Sleep, and he also said that the tune of The Mist Covered Mountains of Home had been based on that of Johnny's So Long at the Fair. The link between the tunes of Sam Hall and Ye Jacobites by Name has been commented on in many places over many decades - it wasn't noticed for the first time in this thread. Although it can't be proved that the author of Sam Hall based its tune on Ye Jacobites, it's generally accepted that it's likely that he did. The tunes of Ye Jacobites by Name and My Love's in Germany are actually identical - and it's well known that Burns hardly ever wrote the tunes for his songs, but unashamedly borrowed them from elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 06 Feb 17 - 09:21 PM Hi Lighter You're right that the Wikipedia article didn't give a source for its "old" lyrics - and as those lyrics were slightly different from those quoted by Bruce Olson, and as his was well sourced and is frequently cited, I've amended the Wikipedia article so that it now quotes the lyrics Bruce unearthed, quotes his source and links to his article. Of course someone else may amend my amendment, or even revert it to the previous version ... Dave |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Ross Campbell Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:10 PM http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/SONGTXT1.HTM Scroll down for song index. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Tattie Bogle Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:41 PM Dave Rado: agree with what you say in your first paragraph, but as some have said, "there are only so many notes that you can put in so many permutations" - so inevitably some tunes will sound like each other, whether they were consciously based on a previously known tune: or written as a "new tune" with the composer having let some snippet of tune in his subconscious slip into his "new composition" - I have certainly seen the latter happen among some of my songwriting friends. The best thing they can do is to ask a friend with a broad knowledge of tunes to listen to their "new tune" before they go and inadvertently infringe copyright! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Ye Jacobites by Name From: Dave Rado Date: 08 Feb 17 - 06:50 PM Hi Tattie Bogle Regarding unconscious infringement of copyright, George Harrison famously and expensively got his fingers burnt when he wrote My Sweet Lord and the court decided he'd unconsciously based it on He's So Fine by The Chiffons. I don't think he did, and I think that ruling was extremely unfair. I do think it's very likely that the tune of Sam Hall was based on that of Ye Jacobites, though; but if I were judging a copyright infringement case, I'd have given the author of Sam Hall the benefit of the doubt on that, too. We've become such a litigious society. [sigh] Dave |
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