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BS: We're off, barring an earthquake

Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 05:51 AM
Stu 02 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM
akenaton 02 Feb 17 - 06:26 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 06:37 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 06:41 AM
Stanron 02 Feb 17 - 06:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 17 - 06:59 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 07:25 AM
Jack Campin 02 Feb 17 - 08:05 AM
Stanron 02 Feb 17 - 08:08 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 08:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Feb 17 - 08:43 AM
DMcG 02 Feb 17 - 08:51 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Feb 17 - 08:36 PM
Mr Red 03 Feb 17 - 03:06 AM
Iains 03 Feb 17 - 03:31 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 04:17 AM
Iains 03 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM
Senoufou 03 Feb 17 - 04:46 AM
Mr Red 03 Feb 17 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 05:27 AM
Iains 03 Feb 17 - 01:53 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 02:16 PM
Senoufou 03 Feb 17 - 02:19 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 02:31 PM
Iains 03 Feb 17 - 03:10 PM
Iains 03 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM
Thompson 03 Feb 17 - 04:34 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 06:13 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 06:23 PM
Senoufou 03 Feb 17 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Feb 17 - 07:01 PM
Teribus 04 Feb 17 - 02:41 AM
akenaton 04 Feb 17 - 05:24 AM
Teribus 04 Feb 17 - 06:13 AM
DMcG 04 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM
Teribus 04 Feb 17 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 17 - 06:43 AM
DMcG 04 Feb 17 - 06:48 AM
Stu 04 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 17 - 07:04 AM
Stanron 04 Feb 17 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM
Stanron 04 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM
DMcG 04 Feb 17 - 07:44 AM
Iains 04 Feb 17 - 07:52 AM
Teribus 04 Feb 17 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Feb 17 - 08:23 AM
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Subject: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 05:48 AM

Yesterday's vote was hardly a surprise and there's a lot of fighting still to do. I believe that coming out of the EU is going to be a total catastrophe. I also think that there's no-one to call our idiotic prime minister to account. Jeremy, you can't form a front bench worthy of the name and a fifth of your MPs have just defied you, including a number of Labour big-hitters. The party of which I'm a member is a basket case and, let's face it, you're toast. The party desperately needs someone who's not in your camp and who hasn't got too much Blair-Brown-Miliband loser baggage. Fatally-split parties are routinely demolished by the electorate. God knows where this country, and Labour, go from here.

I almost feel like a bloody LibDem, God help me.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 05:51 AM

Black humour moment: good job I proofread that. The first version came out as "fatally-split panties."


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM

Actually Steve, several of my mates have been talking of doing the same thing. As Labour is no longer an effective opposition we need someone to act in the interests of anyone who hasn't drifted to the right, and it seems the LibDems are the only choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM

I wonder what goes on in the background sometimes, Steve. I agree with your points and, as a fellow member, cannot help but be disappointed with the performance of late. I think Corbyn is well intentioned but, given the hostility of the press and some of the PLP, he is on a hiding to nothing! Maybe the intention was to get a new broom to sweep the Tory sleepers out of the party and then, when his leadership had become untenable, replace him with someone who would be both popular and able to return the party to their roots? I think you mentioned Keir Starmer recently and while I previously knew little about him he does look a fair bet.

As to fatally split panties, the less said the better.

:D tG

PS - Talking of fair bets, what are odds of this thread staying clear of right wing sneerers, Farage apologists and socialists in inverted commas... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:26 AM

Don't panic, most frustrated/tearful "liberals" are joining UKIP.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:37 AM

Wouldn't bet on that, Dave!

I did wonder whether Corbyn's three-line whip, doomed from the outset, was his deliberate attempt to manoeuvre himself into a position from which he could say, well I can't carry the party with me so let's look for a dignified stepdown without any infighting. I hope so but I doubt it. He's a tenacious bugger if nowt else.

Ben Bradshaw holds our last outpost in the Westcountry and he voted against. As did Stella Creasy, very sure-footed and a fighter, though not exactly anti-divisive.

Stu, the idiotic LibDems delivered us this bloody mess, and their near-annihilation in 2015 was the only joy I could glean from that election. And their current leader harbours the kind of obnoxious notions about gay marriage and abortion that would go down well in the Trump camp. So no thanks. And only seven out of nine voted against, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:41 AM

Ok, let's have UKIP membership statistics, akenaton, along with the former political affiliations of recently-joined members. If you can't provide these figures right now, I respectfully ask you to go and play on the railway.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:56 AM

Join the Lib-Dems.

I may well be accused of 'triumphalism' here but I think the reason the Labour Party is at a dead end is that, in the minds of most people, they achieved their main ojectives years ago. We have a Welfare State, State pensions, Medical Care free at the point of access, a minimum wage and all sorts of legislation to protect our rights. In an attempt to stay relevant the Labour party keeps trying to fight the old battles over and over again and fails to face up to the fact that the real new challenge is reducing the level of debt we leave to future generations.

Old Labour members will blame Maggie for the collapse of heavy industry. Others remember the political ambitions and practical intransigence of the Trade Unions. Still there as evidenced by the recent rail strikes. Also, and this has been said before, once we lost the captive markets of Empire we were over-producing industrially, with increasingly obsolete machinery and practices, and for thirty years everybody, Labour and Tories alike, refused to take responsible action. Maggie was forced to bite the bullet and you all hate her for it.

At least the Lin Dems are not tied to the Unions. The general public might look favourably on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 06:59 AM

I should have bet on it being unsullied for only 7 minutes. I could have made a fortune :-D

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 07:25 AM

Oh, don't you worry, Stanron. We hate her for a lot more reasons than that. She legitimised government by spiv in the late 80s which Blair and his cronies cheerfully perpetuated. Look where it got us. As for recent industrial action on the railways, there is nothing "political" going on. That is just the lame kneejerk of you Tories. It's about rank bad management, lousy industrial relations and cost-cutting putting passenger safety at risk The working people of this country have been lied to about unemployment by this government and millions are enduring under-employment, seasonal work, pay that doesn't cover their uncontrolled rents, companies who won't recognise trade unions for reasons we don't even need to think about, temporary contracts, zero-hours contracts, bogus apprenticeships, bogus "self-employment" to relieve firms of paying your stamp and no job security. And if you get made redundant don't expect your "redundancy pay" to keep you going while you search for another job. The working people of this country need a strong opposition voice and strong unions more than ever. And do try to get your information from somewhere other than the Daily Mail.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:05 AM

Corbyn and the despicable gang of weasels he leads did absolutely NOTHING to stop Farage so I suppose it's not surprising he wants to be first in the queue to lick Trump's arse.

Nonetheless I didn't see such a craven display of utter acquiescence to fascism coming.

The Scottish Nationalists need to open a franchise in England.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:08 AM

Thanks Steve. Two laughs for the price of one. Your attempt at patronising was 100% inaccurate and the rest of your post proves my main point.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:12 AM

You're welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:43 AM

Corbyn and the despicable gang of weasels he leads did absolutely NOTHING to stop Farage

I understand the sentiment, Jack, but think it is a bit unfair. The Farage rot had set in well before Corbyn and the current shadow cabinet were in position. By the time they were there any attempt at stemming the flow would have been futile. I would certainly blame Milliband as much as Cameron for pandering to the popularist right wing wave but I think Corbyn and co. are just trying to make the best of a bad job. Maybe they are not doing or cannot do enough given how far things have gone :-(

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:51 AM

The three line whip was a lose-lose situation. If he had not had a three line whip then the closet-Remainer angle defying the people's will would have been played continuously. Having a three line whip with rebels looks weak and incompetent. Having a three line whip with no rebels was always extremely unlikely but if it had been achieved we would be hearing about the main rebels losing their principles.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Feb 17 - 08:36 PM

I must say, I think Diane Abbott is being treated abysmally by the media. Hanged, drawn and quartered without trial, including by the despicable Andrew Neill on This Week, which I've just watched. Cor, all these people who have suddenly become medical experts! She made it crystal clear last week on Question Time that she thought the only right thing to do was to vote to trigger Article 50 and that is what she would do, in spite of having voted to remain. I didn't agree, but hey, that is precisely what she said. So there was no "bottling."


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 03:06 AM

bin saying it since JC was put forward.

Michael Foot Mk2


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 03:31 AM

Sick people frequently turn up in the commons for critical votes. Diane Abbot is even taken to task by her own party for failing to vote because of a migraine..
The Guardian:-"Diane Abbott has been accused of cowardice and asked to apologise by a fellow Labour MP after missing the historic article 50 vote on Wednesday evening.

Despite claims from the shadow home secretary's office that she had fallen ill with a sudden migraine, John Mann claimed she "gave herself a sick note" rather than help to trigger Britain's exit from the EU."
    True or false her non vote will likely destroy her career and credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:17 AM

Yep, the self-same John Mann who arranged the cameras to be present before staging his theatrical attack on Ken Livingstone. A thoroughly dishonest man. You really want to believe him over Diane Abbott?


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:31 AM

It is not a case of what I believe. It is a case of what her electorate, party, and the general public believe. Now matter how she attempts to spin her excuses, she will be judged for failing to turn up for a major vote. I would say her future is dammed.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:46 AM

I agree with Steve, Until we know for sure that Diane Abbott was/wasn't suffering from an acute medical problem, it's very wrong in my opinion to accuse her of 'bottling it' regarding her sudden retreat from the House. She could have been ill with any number of things, and it's nobody's business exactly what the illness was. She's been signed off for a number of days, and 'should return at the end of next week'. Dreadful to label her a coward and so on without the true facts being known.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:48 AM

Brittain's future is damned. Diane Abbot will not have much damn nation (sic) heaped in her. That will be reserved for JC!


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 05:27 AM

The point is that she didn't bottle anything. She had already made her view and her voting intention crystal clear the week before. Your post of 03.31am contains all the same insinuations that the right-wing media and her political adversaries have been coming out with. If you didn't believe those insinuations you wouldn't have posted them. In this country we still tend to adhere to innocent until proven guilty. As for her career, I doubt that she'll be shedding too many tears if things do indeed go against her.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 01:53 PM

A selection of headlines below.AS yet the migraine is attracting little sympathy ( or belief)

Wanted: good press for Diane Abbott
Spectator.co.uk (blog)-6 hours ago
As Diane Abbott continues to receive flak today for missing the Article 50 vote thanks to 'a migraine' (with #PrayForDiane doing the rounds ...
Diane Abbott facing calls to quit shadow cabinet over Brexit vote no ...
Mirror.co.uk-19 hours ago
'Did you bottle it?' Diane Abbott swerves questions after missing ...
Express.co.uk-12 hours ago
Diane Abbott fails to vote in Brexit Bill debate after going home with ...
Telegraph.co.uk-2 Feb 2017
MP Diane Abbott dodges questions after missed Brexit Bill vote
ITV News-2 Feb 2017
Drinks in the Red Lion pub... then Diane Abbott gets a 'migraine' and ...

For a politicians that all thrive on publicity, this ain't going well!


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:16 PM

Well now, there's a roster of fair-minded reports! The Spectator and Telegraph are right-wing Tory rags and the rest deal in tabloid sensationalism. And you don't really understand migraine, do you? The drinks in the bar were on THE DAY BEFORE, Iains. How many drinks did she have, Iains? Did she get pissed? Do you know something we don't know? You haven't a clue, have you? It's despicable to imply that having a drink the day before and having a migraine 24 hours later are in any way connected. Bit of a lynch mob mentality, innit, Iains?


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:19 PM

Well they're all slinging mud with great enthusiasm, but as I already said, no-one knows for sure what the poor lady is suffering from. I occasionally get crippling vertigo which comes on very suddenly. I stagger about, vomit and fall over. It's dreadful and apparently is related to migraine but without the pain, (a kind of vestibular neuritis). If this is similar to Ms Abbott's condition, she would have had to exit the Chamber instantly and get home somehow as fast as possible.
There are many embarrassing and/or painful illnesses which demand a swift withdrawal from public places. People should reserve judgement until the truth is known.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 02:31 PM

Sometimes we just have to take people at their word. Maybe she'll tell us in her own time what really happened, or maybe what really happened is what we've already been told. In the meantime we should see these despicable tabloid headlines for what they are. Diane Abbott (of whom I'm no fan, by the way) is one of those lefties who are easy meat for the tabloids. She was got at (and I thought she deserved it, frankly) for sending her child to a private school and she's been on the cusp ever since. But fair dos, eh? Iains is demeaning himself big-time by conniving in these innuendos and smears.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 03:10 PM

The vote that Diane Abbot missed was probably one of the most significant in recent history. Plenty of time has elapsed for her inner circle to have provided evidence to quieten the pack. That this has not occurred says a lot. Even you must admit that for the shadow home secretary to bottle out of a critical vote is strange behaviour.
By the way Shaw, connive implies being secretive. Nuffin secret about what I am saying. By the way you are correct many do despise her for sending her child to a private school, and were desperate to get at her as a result of this.(a bit of Labourite envy perhaps?)
Where she decides to have her children educated is a matter for her. It is her misfortune to have membership of an organisation that makes an issue of such private, personal decisions.

By the way in no way do I consider it demeaning to comment on her behaviour. It is just another nail in the coffin of a party desperate to self destruct. After the next general election I doubt Labour will have enough seats to play a game of monopoly. You will have to find another horse to back in order to seek your utopia. That will be far more satisfying for me than responding to your constant insults.
Can you try playing the B side once in a while, you a side tracks are getting repetitive?


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM

From the Guardian, a staunch Labour party paper:-

"Poor old Diane Abbott. There she was, desperate to cast her vote on article 50 at 7pm, only to go down with a migraine just a couple of hours beforehand. The Labour MP John Mann has rather cruelly accused her of throwing a sickie to save herself from the dilemma of choosing between her constituency, 80% of which voted for remain, and Jeremy Corbyn's three-line whip. As someone who has been known to take the odd sickie myself – though obviously never while I've been working for the Guardian – I feel obliged to give Diane a few tips on the right way of doing it. Don't get photographed having a few drinks in the pub the night before. Don't make an impassioned speech in Westminster Hall less than an hour before you want to bunk off. Don't tweet less than an hour after you are officially throwing up with a migraine. The key to a good sickie is plausibility. Some well-placed, attention-seeking coughs, several hours before you plan to go home. Talk loudly on the phone about how ill you are feeling and that you aren't sure you're going to make it through the day. Then wait for a colleague to suggest you go home."

Oh Dear!


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 04:34 PM

Question from a foreigner, if you'd be so kind: Did Jeremy Corbyn want the British Labour Party to vote 'Leave'?


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:13 PM

Well do let me help you, Iains. First, the Guardian is very far from being a staunch Labour paper. No way. I've been taking the Guardian for over forty years and, my God, how it has so often frustrated me. Second, the item you pasted a lump from, but failed to attribute, was penned by John Crace. His role in the Grauniad is always to take a light-hearted and sarcastic view of politics (and his "digested read" is a sine qua non, by the way). He's my favourite and I never miss his articles. But he is in no way a heavyweight political commentator, Iains. John is all about fun and light-hearted piss-takes. The trouble with you is the same as the trouble with those guys who quote from the Bible. They quote stuff, often without attribution (as in your case), without understanding either the sentiment or the context of what they're quoting. I can tell you for nothing that Diane would have loved his piece (and almost certainly will have read it).

So you don't think it's demeaning to comment on her "behaviour." Well, she told us she had a migraine atttack. Well I have two friends who are prone to migraines and I experience migraine auras myself on occasion. It is not very nice. Life grinds to a halt and there is nothing you can do about it. You are prejudging her. She's a bit of a leftie so she must have been coming the old soldier with her migraine. Well let me tell you something, Iains. You don't know that. I don't know that. Nothing in her behaviour over the 24 hours before her migraine militates against what she's told us. And for you to imply that is pathetic - and totally in character, sadly, as you've demonstrated a few times here recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:23 PM

Thompson, we suspect that Jeremy is extremely lukewarm about the EU. His demeanour during the campaign didn't exactly make anyone suspect otherwise. It has been an issue, to be honest. "Dragging his feet" would just about sum it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Senoufou
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 06:44 PM

Just to add to my last post, it means nothing whatsoever that Ms Abbott was seen drinking in the pub the evening before, or even if she was Morris dancing an hour before. I can be happily trundling round Tesco's when wham! my poor husband has to half carry me to the car and get me home immediately. It's astonishing how suddenly these things can strike. One can't just 'bravely carry on'. It can't be done. One can't even sit up without being sick. Flat on one's back staring at the ceiling is the only way to get through it. If it was anything like this, I feel very sorry for her. We can't know what happened, but no-one should be called a liar and a coward in this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Feb 17 - 07:01 PM

You're a star, Senoufou. As I said, I get migraine auras, but without the headache. I never know when it's going to happen but I can't do a damn thing once it starts and it lasts for about 45 minutes and I'm knackered afterwards. I can be hunkydory one minute, then it hits, and then I'm stuffed. I can't imagine what people who also follow through with the headache go through. Damn sight worse than me, that's for sure. Thing is, a bit like deafness, you can't see it from the outside. So, if you're of a certain mindset, you prejudge. Nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 02:41 AM

During the run up to the Brexit Referendum the official stance of every single political party in the UK with the obvious exception of UKIP was to vote to remain in the EU. Eurosceptic members of every single political party with the exception of UKIP formed the official opposition to the UK's membership under the banner "Vote Leave".


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 05:24 AM

Shed no tears for miss Abbott. A posturing "liberal", seeking celebrity status at the close of her political career.
I have no idea what Mr Corbyn was thinking of when he appointed her.

Abbott would be much more comfortable amongst the careerists and wet eyed "liberals" who compose the rump of the Parliamentary Party.

As I said already Mr Corbyn's mandate is from the rank and fie membership who know that electoral power is beyond them at present.
Mr Corbyns job is to educate and propose alternatives to global Capitalism, he has a strong political base of committed socialists, but against the whole of the media and with a Party of backstabbers he has no chance of power.....nor should he want it at this juncture.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:13 AM

One question related to the thread title - Just where are we "off" to?


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:17 AM

Presumably a reference to the commenter cliche at the start of a horse race "And - they're off!". Whether it is the winning post we are off to or hell in a hand cart we may know soon, or it may be several decades before it is clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:38 AM

As we survived and thrived for centuries before without the EU I dare say we can do so again, particularly since the balance of trade between us and the EU and us and the rest of the world has been shifting steadily over the past five years from the former to the latter.

The vote has been taken and we will trigger Article 50 and once that notification has been delivered the process is irreversible - No race at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:43 AM

"As we survived and thrived for centuries before without the EU"
We had an Empire, Industries and a system capable of suppressing discontent.
We may have the latter, but the others all long gone.
Brexit has been a shambles and has opened the door to the worst aspects of humanity - Trump being the worst example so far, with scum like Lepen waiting in the wings..
Now we are in the process of deciding who we are to be dependent of in the future
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 06:48 AM

What's that thing they have to put on investment advert and similar these days? Ah yes, "Past Performance Is No Guarantee of Future Results". Or if you prefer a more ancient version, you can't step in rhe same river twice. That we managed in the past in a world whose financial and business structures were entirely different may be encouraging and give hope but that's as far as I can take it.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stu
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM

"As we survived and thrived for centuries before without the EU I dare say we can do so again...

This is why old white men have ruined the world for everyone else. Hankering after an age that never existed, will never exist and their myopic, blinkered, parochial world view means they can't understand why the way forward for us as a species is not in the petty isolationism of nation states but in combining the strengths

Your generation has failed us, but you don't have the wit to see it or the humility to contemplate your own fallibility or admit your failure. You should get out of the way before you, Trump, Farage,Le Pen and the rest of your backward, authoritarian leadership fuck it up even more for generations to come.


Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly aging
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
Cause the times they are a-changing


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:04 AM

We've allowed Farage, Gove and Johnson to persuade us to cut ourselves adrift from Europe, and Trump is treating people like Merkel as though they're about on the same footing as Putin. Yet here's Theresa May, holding his hand and betraying an unseemly rush to get him here and to make "special deals." Well it isn't going to happen. He's a ruthless, exploitative businessman and he'll take very little notice of us when he finds how little we have to offer him, and he is seriously, possibly fatally, undermining the EU, which, believe it or not, we are still going to need big-time. We're stuffed, and the Blimps and little Englanders have a nasty shock coming. So far, were half way down the tower block we jumped off and my, isn't the blue sky and wind in our hair wonderful!


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:22 AM

Stu wrote: the petty isolationism of nation states
This could be quite a good description of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:29 AM

And how, pray, is a close-knit organisation of 28 states with free movement, a common currency for most and tariff-free trading indicative of 'isolationism," Stanron?


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM

The European Single market is a market for it's members only. It isolates itself from the whole of the rest of the world. If the EU single market was larger than the rest of the world's economies lumped together it would have some merit. As part of the EU the UK is not allowed to trade individually with the rest of the world. The UK is not allowed to trade individually with the largest part of the world's economy. As part of the EU the UK is isolated from the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:44 AM

I have no antipathy to the people who voted to leave, or at least I dont mean to have, but it is very hard to know ourselves that well. I think we came to the wrong decision, yes, and there was a very deceitful campaign from both sides which will have deceived some people on both sides, yes. I hope I don't go futher than that, in my opinion, those who voted to leave were mistaken. But who was right and who was wrong is of little importance in finding our way forward from where we are now, which is why I think on balance Labour's decision to impose a three line whip was the best choice from a very poor set of alternatives. But be clear: working to make the best of where we are does not mean stopping criticising the people who got us here. We have to make the best deal we can with the USA. I fear even the best deal will be appalling because our hand is so weak - and Trump's "Art of the Deal" has a bit specifically about how to take advantage of those who are desperate to negotiate. But we have no alternative to doing the best we can overall. And I mean overall: a trade deal that loses control of working rights, or the NHS or individual freedoms we have worked for many decades is not the best deal overall in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Iains
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 07:52 AM

I see Diane Abbott is now advertising for a communications officer.
"The lucky applicant must 'be at ease in a high pressure environment and have a proven track record in press work and be able to work flexible hours'"
They forgot to add that in order for the job to have any future heshe will have to apply more spin than a gyroscope.

The UK opposition party has as much teeth as my pet rooster!




http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/wanted-good-press-diane-abbott/


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:10 AM

Very true we no longer have an Empire, but there again Jom today we no longer need one. One of the things that Empire did do was it brought industrial capability with it to the reaches of that Empire. Globalisation is a fact of life and we have the best known, best trusted and largest financial hub in the world.

Precisely what the UK vote to leave the EU has to do with Trump winning the US Presidential election I have yet to fathom? - "Brexit has been a shambles and has opened the door to the worst aspects of humanity - Trump being the worst example so far" - Idiotic contention even for you Jom.

DMcG - the UK has not existed in a vacuum over the past 43 years - it may come as a surprise to you but we have been living, trading and doing business with an ever changing world throughout - to suggest anything other than that is ridiculous, you know that and I know that. Among the top seven economies in the world that of the UK is out performing them all.

"Only ill brought up louts and schoolyard bullies refer to people agressively by their surnames" - says Jim Carroll addressing Steve Shaw who in the post immediately before that wrote this:

"We've allowed Farage, Gove and Johnson to persuade us to cut ourselves adrift from Europe, and Trump is treating people like Merkel as though they're about on the same footing as Putin."

What was that you were saying about surnames again Jom?

According to Jom Shaw you are an ill brought up lout and a schoolyard bully"

I am sure following posts from both will come out with some form of snivelling and feeble reasons that excuses and exempts themselves from such censure. I use Carroll and Shaw as a mark of my total contempt for them both based purely on their behaviour on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: We're off, barring an earthquake
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 17 - 08:23 AM

The Empire made remade the nations in our image, destroyed native cultures and languages in the process and left a chaotic bloodbath in its wake
Both Brexit and Trump are the result of maipulated populism, as will be any rise of fascist states in the future
It's not rocket science
"What was that you were saying about surnames again Jom?"
I'm rerefering to members of this forum who are discussing with each other - I obviously lack a respect of these scum which you obviously have
Your infantile use of "Jom" http://mudcat.org/blickifier.cfmis a contant remainder of the insecurity you pointed out in others
Nice to see my points are still striking home
Jim Carroll


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