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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 10:00 AM
Raggytash 14 Mar 17 - 09:24 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 08:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 08:00 AM
bobad 14 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 17 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 05:26 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 17 - 05:17 AM
Iains 14 Mar 17 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 17 - 04:38 AM
Teribus 14 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 17 - 04:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 03:11 AM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:10 AM
akenaton 14 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 17 - 02:46 AM
Teribus 14 Mar 17 - 02:30 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 07:10 PM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 05:06 PM
Iains 13 Mar 17 - 05:05 PM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 04:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 04:31 PM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 03:57 PM
Iains 13 Mar 17 - 03:44 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Mar 17 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 01:57 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 12:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 12:12 PM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 10:05 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Mar 17 - 10:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 10:27 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 10:19 AM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 17 - 09:29 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 09:25 AM
akenaton 13 Mar 17 - 09:16 AM
Raggytash 13 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM
bobad 13 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 07:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 07:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM
David Carter (UK) 13 Mar 17 - 07:03 AM
Teribus 13 Mar 17 - 06:59 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 10:00 AM

The sun's battling the murk this end, kind of a metaphor for what's going on here on Mudcat. But, to continue with the metaphor, the sun gains in strength every day and the murk will disappear. I've been emptying my freezer to clear out the ice, long overdue. Found a boneless smoked pork loin three years out of date. I'm going to cook it anyway. Either it'll make good butties or the bin can have it. The blackbirds are currently enjoying a pound of blackberries from 2014. 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 09:24 AM

The day is gloriously sunny here on the Connemara, the broom is in blossom, a sublime yellow. A gentle breeze blowing and I'm sitting in a bar having a pint with stunning views out across the strand to the island.

Wonderful, truly wonderful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:21 AM

No-one is denying your statistics and no-one is denying hate crimes. The figures you've provided in no way confirm the assertion you made. I'm not moving the goalposts here, simply asking the same question every time. Your US figures are just weird, given the tiny number of offences in such a huge country, and your over-interpreted Aussie figures come from a biased source. Which doesn't mean they're not true, but I note your usual modus operandi (and can predict your response to that). As for the European stats, they are largely just percentages, not numbers, and give us no concept of the scale of the problem. The numbers given for the UK are both low and they contradict your case. Similarly, the Aussie numbers are low. In the context of other types of crime such as robbery, burglary, assault and domestic abuse, you have failed to show that the crimes you're complaining about amount to any kind of crisis. Maybe they do, but you seem to be having difficulty demonstrating that. We need the numbers, and we need to know the nature of the crimes. You simply have not delivered. I'm not being awkward. I have no axe to grind and I detest all hate crime. I'm saying that you made an assertion that you seem unable to confirm, nothing like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:06 AM

No axe to grind in this particular argument but the question that springs to mind is what kind of hate crimes are we talking here? I have heard about a lot of shootings and beatings metered out to Muslims. Are the same crimes being committed against other religions? There is a huge difference between calling people names, no matter how nasty, and shooting them.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 08:00 AM

"Jim, no-one is discussing Israel so stop trying to make this yet another Israel thread."
The only possible reason for any rise in Antisemitism is due to Israel's use of the Jewish People in defence of its war crimes - thatat has had an international effects - it's bound to.
How about responding to ewhat the "Self-hating Jew" has to say on the matter?
Everything here is directly traceable to Israel's attempts to block BDS
How dare you attempt to stop that fact being raised - who do you think you are - Donald Trump?
If you start this attempts at censorcship again, I shall get you stopped
You do this far too often.
I'm thoroughly pissed off with being called a liar by someone who is unable to distinguish the difference between truth and lies
If you have any proof of my lying, put them up individually and see how they stand up
"Muslim implants" - a fact - show it wasn't
Child marriage - likewise
Accusations of Jews in Parliament staying silent because ofg their love for the party - same again
You have said them all and have reiterated your filthy accusations over and over again.
You even made up an invisible army of experts to hide behind because you had no other way of getting out of what you said you believed.
Israel is a TERRORIST STATE that has been saved from being put on trial by U.S. vetoes - we watched the result of those crimes on our televisions - we don't need the silence of self-serving politicians to show us otherwise
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM

Don't sweat Shaw and Carroll, they are knee jerking just as I expected they would and showing their true colours. Present them with irrefutable statistics and they will claim that that it's not a hate crime because it doesn't fit with THEIR definition of anti-Semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 07:19 AM

Jim, no-one is discussing Israel so stop trying to make this yet another Israel thread.

Steve,
So far we haven't got information from anything like "most of the western world,

We have figures for Europe, USA and Canada.
They are a very large chunk of "the Western world" and likely to be representative. What major region do you have doubts about?

You have had what you asked for. An acknowledgement would be acceptable.
Or, have you any evidence at all, however trivial or slight, to the contrary?

calling a Jew "yid!" across a crowded bus.

That is no more likely to enter the hate crime statistics than any other BME person being abused across a crowded bus, so that is not a flaw in the interpretation of them.
In fact, Jews are usually much less identifiable in a crowded bus than other BME folk.

Jim,
You with your Jewish pacts of silence and Bobad, who refuses to condemn your debasement of Jews and his associating Israeli war crimes with the Jewish People – are the only anti-Semites here
Vacuously insulting as ever, I see Iains
Have you really nothing to say?


Yes. I have to say that you are lying.
I have never claimed any "Jewish pact of silence."
That is a made up slur.
I have given Bobad nothing to condemn.

Also, no decent democracy has ever accused Israel of any war crimes.
It is an invention of its enemies, and anyway we are not discussing Israel!
You are obsessed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM

Just to be perfectly clear Keith
You with your Jewish pacts of silence and Bobad, who refuses to condemn your debasement of Jews and his associating Israeli war crimes with the Jewish People – are the only anti-Semites here
Vacuously insulting as ever, I see Iains
Have you really nothing to say?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:26 AM

Teribus

nor has he been banned from doing anything by anybody

I happen to know different. You could ask him but even if you don't believe me it is still the truth.

Iains

You seem to fail to grasp the concept that communication is a 2 way process. I suspect you get that from your mentor. If I am partially to blame for any communications failure you need to ask yourself where the rest of the blame lies.

As to what I am doing here. Well, meeting Mudcatters from across the globe in real life. Arranging Mudcat events in real life. Contributing useful knowledge above the line. Annoying you apparently. How about you?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 05:17 AM

It would be good if you didn't deliberately misrepresent what I've said, Keith. I haven't denied anything. I've simply asked some challenging questions in order to elicit corroboration for an assertion made by bobad. What he says may well be right. But I want to know how that conclusion was reached. So far we haven't got information from anything like "most of the western world," the numbers given from the US are peculiarly low to say the least considering the size of the country and the nature of the alleged crimes and how many of them were prosecuted hasn't been revealed. A hate crime could be anything from murdering a Jew at random in a subway to calling a Jew "yid!" across a crowded bus. Just over a thousand unspecified crimes in the US over a year is hardly convincing evidence in itself of a major problem. If we've now been given the best stats available, as you allege, then all I can say is that they fall well short of confirming the original assertion about "most of the western world."


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:56 AM

Dthe G
"f I either fail to understand something or fail to make something clear I know that I am partially at fault."

HOOOOORAAAAAY! You fiinally get the point. If you don't know what you are saying, and don't understand it when you say it, one could perhaps legitimately ask:- What in hell are you doing here?
You really must have a serious conversation with AKELA CONCERNING YOUR FUTURE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:38 AM

"Why is it so important to you to deny the persecution of Jewish people."
Why do you persistently distort what people have to say Keith
The Israel regime's policy of using the Jewish People as human shields to protect themselves from charges of war crimes has led to a distorted picture of what is and is not Antisemitism and totally taken it out of context
This - from one of the leading Jewish commentators, sums up what has given rise to today's situation - mind you, his opinions have probably earned him the title of "self hating Jew" to people like you
Jim Carroll


DOOM-MONGERING
What U.S. Jews Don't Get About European Anti-Semitism JONATHAN FREEDLAND
01.14.13 2:30 PM ET
My inbox is giving me a queasy sensation of déjà vu. It's filling up with anguished claims that British schools are banning the teaching of Hebrew. As it happens, no such thing has occurred. The government has simply proposed that elementary schools be required to teach one of a list of seven officially recommended languages: French, Spanish, German, Italian, Mandarin, ancient Latin, or Greek. Hebrew is no more about to be banned than is Arabic or Russian. Jewish schools will still be able to teach Hebrew. It's just that, if the move goes ahead, they'll also have to teach French, Spanish, or one of the other approved seven languages.

The feeling of déjà vu arises because six years ago I received an email titled "In Memoriam." It announced that British schools had banned the teaching of the Holocaust, lest Muslim pupils be offended. The email declared this to be "a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it." Spurred into action, the New York Post published a lament by Barry Rubin, denouncing "UK Schools' Sickening Silence."
Sickening it would indeed have been. Except not a word of the accusation was true. The teaching of the Holocaust was and remains compulsory in English schools. (Indeed, a long-running scheme in operation then and now ensures two seniors from every high school in the country visit Auschwitz on trips subsidized by the U.K. government.) The story was a fabrication, arising from a research study that had found—and criticized—a single teacher in a single English school who had avoided selecting the Shoah for specialist coursework because she suspected a resistance to the topic among some Muslim pupils. Government ministers condemned the action of that single teacher and reiterated that the subject was a mandatory part of the curriculum.

Nevertheless the email kept coming, circulated and recirculated. In almost every case the point of origin was the United States. I remember drafting a standard reply, which I would cut and paste and send to concerned American friends, putting the record straight. The myth proved so persistent, however, that in 2008 the education secretary felt compelled to take the apparently unprecedented step of writing to every ambassador in London, refuting the In Memoriam email and reiterating that the teaching of the Holocaust was "non-negotiable."
Forgive all the detail, but this is becoming a regular task for a British Jew: reassuring our American friends that, no, we are not living in a new dark age and, no, the lights are not going out all over Europe. We are getting used to the fact that U.S. Jews seem ready to believe the worst of this part of the world. In the two cases I've mentioned, many Americans were all too willing to accept that British Jews were about to become latter-day Marranos, driven underground by an anti-Semitic government and its jihadist allies, huddling together to teach their children about the Holocaust in Hebrew whispers.
You'd be surprised how often my fellow British Jews are required to disabuse U.S. friends of such delusions. One leading communal professional recalls a London meeting with an American counterpart, the latter first insisting on a tearful embrace: "You're going through what my grandmother went through in Russia, with the pogroms," he sniffed. Another asked if a Jew like him would be safe walking through the streets of London.
Such fear is fed by emails spreading bogus scare stories, but also by the claim that the British capital has become Londonistan, a sharia-ruled outpost where al Qaeda sheiks preach on every street corner, and by the breathless description of London as "the hub of hubs" when it comes to "delegitimization" of Israel. In this conception, the calendar might say 2013 but the year is forever 1938, with the Jews of Europe on the verge of another catastrophe—and once again too blind to see it coming.
So are those sounding the warning guilty of hysteria? Or are those who dismiss it guilty of a terrible naiveté? The clearest answer can be found in that most Jewish of practices: the drawing of distinctions.

It's useful, for example, to distinguish between Western Europe on the one hand and Eastern and Central Europe on the other. There are troubles for Jews in both, but they are not the same and they are too often misleadingly conflated. So, yes, in Western European countries the tension between established Jewish communities and emerging Muslim ones can be perilous. The most extreme case is surely last year's multiple homicide—the victims, three children and a rabbi—in Toulouse, apparently by a jihadist maniac. Others have long been alarmed by the case of Malmö, Sweden, a city whose 45,000 Muslims make up 15 percent of the population and where Jews have been on the receiving end of persistent anti-Semitic attacks—a fact denied by the town's Social Democratic mayor, who instead criticized Malmo's Jews for their failure to condemn Israel. As he put it, "We accept neither anti-Semitism nor Zionism in Malmö."
Beneath these two headline cases are a hundred other lesser points of friction, often on campus, situations where Jews and Muslims have clashed, frequently over the politics of the Middle East. A consistent trend, noticed by those who monitor anti-Semitism, is a surge in anti-Jewish hatred whenever the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians escalates.
Leave Western Europe, to head east or more recently south, and the picture alters. Here the threat to Jews is of a much more familiar variety. The far right, white and bellicose, has surfaced with a vengeance especially in those former communist nations where ultra-nationalism was once repressed. Witness the rise of Jobbik, a Hungarian neo-fascist party that is the country's third largest. One Jobbik M.P. recently called for all of Hungary's Jews to be registered on a list, as a threat to "national security." The resonance of a list of Jewish names in Hungary, where 500,000 Jews were rounded up and murdered during the Nazi period, hardly needs to be spelled out.
In Greece, the Golden Dawn party concentrates its fire on the Asian and African immigrants whom it blames for the country's economic woes. But like so many rightists of the old school, when it comes to Jews, Golden Dawn can't help themselves. According to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, "Golden Dawn's leader, Nikolaos Michaloliakos, denies there were gas chambers or ovens at Nazi death camps and has a penchant for giving the Nazi salute." The party spokesman recently rose in Parliament to read out a passage from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
But here's where distinctions matter. The Greek fascists speak of Israel as a "Zionist terror state," but that sets them apart from many of their comrades on the European far right, who have become late converts to the cause of Israel—chiefly, it seems, as a way of confronting Muslims. The British National Party leader Nick Griffin is fond of boasting that his was the only party that supported Israel during Operation Cast Lead in 2008–9, while activists in the rival English Defence League have grown oddly fond of the Israeli flag.
Tellingly, this habit can lead many of those U.S. doom-mongers, constantly warning of European Jewry's dire plight, to be rather selective about which threats they see. While they can be relied upon to highlight any Islamist clash with Jews, they often stay hushed about those ultra-rightists who have no love for the Jews but who, for their own reasons, have decided to declare themselves pro-Israel. So there was no email circular about Michal Kaminski of the Polish Law and Order party, even though Kaminski began his career in the National Rebirth of Poland movement, inspired by a 1930s fascist ideology that dreamed of a racially pure nation, and even though in 2001 Kaminski upbraided the president for daring to apologize for a 1941 pogrom in the town of Jedwabne that left hundreds of Jews dead. (Kaminski said there was nothing to apologize for—at least not until Jews apologized for the suffering they had inflicted on the Poles.) Presumably the email circulators hesitated to condemn the Polish politician because he had branded himself as pro-Israel.
Similarly, Marine Le Pen, leader of the Front National, found very few ambassadors willing to meet her when she paid a 2011 visit to the United Nations in New York—save for Israel's then U.N. envoy, Ron Prosor, who later had to apologize for giving the impression that he was happy to turn a blind eye to Mme. Le Pen's record because she had made the right noises on Israel. For some, it seems, anti-Semitism is only worthy of strenuous opposition when it is combined with hostility to Israel or comes from a Muslim source.
Which brings us to another crucial distinction. Episodes that Americans see as evidence of growing European hostility to Jews are often understood by European Jews to be criticism of Israel—in fact, not even criticism of Israel itself, but rather of a specific strain of Israeli policy: what we might call the Greater Israel project of continuing and expanding settlement of the West Bank. When European governments either abstained or voted for the Palestinian upgrade to semi-statehood at the U.N. in November, plenty in Israel and the U.S. saw that as yet another example of age-old European hostility to the Jews. But very few Jews here saw it the same way. We understood it for what it was, an attempt by governments avowedly sympathetic to Israel's right to security to revive the two-state solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Their calculation might have been wrong, but it was not anti-Semitic. Yet one regular on the academic anti-Semitism studies circuit tells me that U.S. speakers repeatedly cite examples of anti-Israel discourse as if they were synonymous with instances of anti-Jewish racism. A scholar in his own right, he is infuriated that his colleagues fail to make this critical distinction.
Above all, those stubbornly committed to the view of twenty-first century Europe as one large Auschwitz-in-waiting have a one-eyed view of Jewish life on this side of the Atlantic. They rightly report the chilling news of an apparent ban on religious circumcision in Germany or the move to outlaw shechita, the ritual slaughter required to produce kosher meat, in Poland—but fail to report when those decisions, initially taken at a lower level, are swiftly overturned.
More importantly, they fail to notice the intriguing paradox of European Jews' current position—that there are dangers, but also great triumphs. Take Britain. Jews here can feel unease at the tenor of the national conversation on Israel—a newspaper cartoon here, a politician's turn of phrase there—but they also enjoy a Jewish life that is in many ways richer than ever before. Limmud, the annual festival of Jewish learning that has gone global, began here, while Jewish Book Week has become London's biggest literary festival. The Booker Prize for 2011 was won by a novel about Jews, The Finkler Question, written by a man who has chronicled the British-Jewish sensibility better than anyone, Howard Jacobson. British TV currently airs not one but two highly rated sitcoms depicting Jewish family life. Meanwhile, if the current polls hold till 2015, Britain's next prime minister is set to be the first Jewish leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband—who repeatedly stresses the pride he takes in his Jewish roots. Not bad for a Jewish community that, according to the latest census, numbers just over 260,000, less than 0.5 percent of the British population.
This is why the Community Security Trust, which monitors anti-Jewish racism, opens its report with an insistence that "British Jewry should be defined by its success and vibrancy rather than by anti-Semitism." That is true of Britain but also beyond. Mark Gardner, director of communications for the CST, used to compare the European-Jewish situation to a glass that some will see as half full, others as half empty. Now he says, "There are two glasses, one half full, one half empty, and they stand side by side." That sounds sufficiently nuanced to be correct. But don't expect anyone to be putting that message in an email.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:22 AM

"If I remember rightly you are also banned from posting on a regular basis. Speaks volumes." - DtG

Unlike yourself Gnome, Akenaton as far as I can see from his posting history has been a regular and frequent contributor who has not taken any "holidays" by adopting a GUEST identity nor has he been banned from doing anything by anybody. He is a person who you CAN have a conversation with, a person you CAN discuss things with even although opinions on various subjects and facets of subjects are diametrically opposed. With your little gang the opposite is the case. The format with you and your "crowd" is simple any point put that you disagree with (Irrespective of any detail that supports it) is subject to flat denial followed by personal abuse.

Also your memory is faulty with respect to the first part of your last post:

"It was primarily your posts that were being removed and your intervention in threads that got them removed or closed, ake"

Don't think that it was Gnome. The main culprits in getting threads closed and on a few occasions entirely deleted were "The Musktwats" (three people posting with one identity), Shaw, Carroll, Greg F, Raggy and yourself. For four years now that little gang, of which you are most certainly a member, have stalked, bullied, mobbed and tried to run at least two members from this forum. Thankfully you have been spectacularly unsuccessful in this venture. The latest tactic and attempt at achieving your goal is via the introduction of fatuous and inane twaddle which according to Shaw will apparently drive us all from the forum in a matter of a couple of weeks (Fat chance). I am so glad that throughout the course of his life he has learned to live with a stream of what must have been, on numerous occasions, bitter disappointments, because in this cause he is going to be disappointed yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:17 AM

Steve, Bobad has supplied the best available stats.
The FBI figures and those for Canada are quite unequivocal.
The figures quoted in his link for Europe complete the picture.
In Europe and Britain special protection has to be provided for Jewish schools only.

Why is it so important to you to deny the persecution of Jewish people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:11 AM

It was primarily your posts that were being removed and your intervention in threads that got them removed or closed, ake. If I remember rightly you are also banned from posting on a regular basis. Speaks volumes.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:10 AM

Sorry, wrong thread....A


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 03:07 AM

On the subject of "off topic", of course some threads veer off on to other matters, that is usually natural progression in discussion, but Stevie has stated repeatedly that "we", meaning him and his playmates are employing this tactic deliberately in an attempt to "piss off" other members, have threads closed or cause people they do not "like" to leave the forum permanently.

This would seem to be a gross contravention of forum rules regarding moderation, but Stevieboy has latched on to the idea that this section is no longer being moderated, so the children are taking full advantage.
This is a difficult situation to rectify, as we don't want to go back to the wholesale removal of posts or complete threads without explanation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:46 AM

Not only do you have problems achieving clarity of meaning when posting but apparently problems of comprehension as well.

Well, Iains, as you will have seen I often use the phrase

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

It explains a lot of the communications issues here. Unlike you however I fully understand that communication is a two way issue and if I either fail to understand something or fail to make something clear I know that I am partially at fault. You, on the other hand, appear to be arrogant enough to believe that you will always understand everything and always make everything clear. Let me put you straight on that. You don't.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 02:30 AM

"Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." - bobad

I believe that statement to be correct - Teribus

USA:
Anti-Semitic attacks = 52.1% of all reported religious hate crimes
All other combined = 47.9%
Statement made by bobad IS supported wrt the USA

Anyone who disbelieves and disagrees with bobad's statement is perfectly free to come up with figures and statistics to counter that claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:10 PM

Teribus, bobad made the assertion that "Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today." You fully supported that statement. Well so far all I've managed to squeeze out of both of you is some information about the US that listed a pretty tiny number of alleged hate crimes that failed to specify what kinds of crimes they were, whether they were in fact religion-based at all and what proportion of them were ever prosecuted leading to conviction. Then we have some slightly better information from an Australian website but which still did not specify how the alleged crimes were delineated and which still did not provide the information needed to confirm that the crimes outnumbered all those against other religious groups combined in most of the western world. I'm a patient man and I don't mind trying time and again to get you to focus on a matter that you have championed. I am interested to hear from you that you can confirm the matter. It won't disadvantage me in any way if you prove to be correct and it will inform further debate. It's a pity that you can only resort to bluster, sidetracking and offensive comment. You must think that the people on this forum are all idiots. Well some of us can focus and see right through you. Try focussing yourself. You'll do your shattered reputation a power of good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:46 PM

Shaw, Iains is doing a great job in exposing your posturing hypocrisy - one rule for your lot and everybody else has to comply with whatever rules you want to set.

How dare you come out with such crap as:

1: We have also been dared to do the research that bobad and Teribus clearly haven't done.

Well I have done the research Shaw - Why haven't you? Are you afraid that you will actually learn something? Or are you just simply incapable of doing it? Any idea of the number in thousands of Jews who have fled France in the last 12 months Shaw? Go on Shaw just take a look, just for once do some work yourself.

2: On top of that we have been treated to the usual tirade of diversions and insults for being so bold as to ask for verification.

Oh you mean like wild flowers, wild garlic, beer, bikes, hill walking, recipes, super-market deals and cafes?

3: I've lost count of the number of times that Teribus has accused other people of making "baseless assertions," etc. (generally unjustified, but hey ho).

So far everything that Keith A of Hertford has been accused of has been baseless - he has asked repeatedly for examples - and answer got he none. Same with Akenaton, same with Iains, same with me. But in recent exchanges I managed to show quite clearly that you were a stalker, a troll and a liar.

A "head to head" with Teribus Shaw? Bobad made a statement that I examined and found that the figures and percentages supported what he claimed. As such I do not have to justify or prove anything to you. If you wish to challenge what was said then figuratively get off your lard arse and do some work yourself

4: Best for last - Apologies for valiantly sticking to the point. It would be nice if it became more of a trend. - Coming from you of all people Priceless, absolutely priceless

Spouting such rubbish as this you are becoming an embarrassment even to your pals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:06 PM

Iains. This was a head-to-head with Teribus. Nothing to do with you. He supports bobad's assertion. I ask for numbers. They are not forthcoming. Teribus or bobad could have drifted off into wild flowers, etc., but they decided to take me on (with all the usual insults and diversions). I'm really glad that my straying into wild flowers annoys you. Take a tip: annoy me back and try it for yourself. In fact, as you never have anything else useful to offer, I recommend it to you. Now here I go again wasting time on you.

You're trying hard, bobad. But which of these crimes against Jews were driven by religion? That's what you said.   I've already pointed out that you have failed to specify. It's a complicated matter, innit? What were the crimes exactly? Were they all prosecuted to conviction or were some of them unresolved complaints? And what about the rest of the western world? I want the numbers, not percentages of what I already suspect (from your US statistics) to be tiny numbers of reported crimes. You don't really get this, do you? We want to know how serious this issue is. Good point from Dave about the comparison with US gun crime, and Raggytash's comparison with the likelihood of being struck by lightning, You could well be right. But, knowing how you've vastly over-inflated Labour's "serious antisemitism problem," you'll have to forgive me for being somewhat sceptical. So I want numbers and I want details. You made the claim. Surely you have the facts. So let's have 'em, preferably without the drip-feeding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 05:05 PM

Dthe G. Not only do you have problems achieving clarity of meaning when posting but apparently problems of comprehension as well. I make the point that for a person to propose one set of actions when repeatedly actioning the opposite is a little perverse to say the least.
I cannot imagine where you conjured up the rest of your little diatribe from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:38 PM

Attacks against Jews continue to occur significantly more frequently than attacks against Muslims. The evidence produced through police reports on hate crimes and studies by anti-hate organizations show that in North America, Europe and Australia the most frequent targets of abuse and violence on account of religious affiliation continue to be Jews.

The four countries with the highest numbers of Jews, outside of Israel, are the United States, France, Canada and Britain.

In the United States, the FBI collects and analyses hate crime statistics across the nation. For the eleven years from 2004 to 2014, anti-Jewish hate crimes constituted between 58% and 70% of all hate crimes in the U.S. in the "Religion" category. By comparison, in the same period, anti-Muslim hate crimes in the U.S. constituted between 7-16% of the total in that category. It follows that in the United States, a Jew is six times more likely to be attacked than a Muslim, despite the fact that American Jews outnumber Muslims by only two to one.

In France, 50% of racist attacks are against Jews. The remaining 50% of racist attacks are spread over other groups including Africans, Arabs, Asians, Muslims, Roma and others. In France, where Muslims currently outnumber Jews by about ten to one, the number of attacks against Jews is nevertheless much higher than against Muslims.

In Canada, the Ontario Human Rights Commission reported that in 2009, of all religion-based hate crimes in the country, 70% were committed against Jews. In 2010, more than 50% were against Jews, and 26% were against Muslims. Muslims outnumber Jews in Canada by about three to one.

In Britain, the Metropolitan Police Service database on hate crimes in London showed a rise in both anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim incidents for the twelve month period from July 2014 to July 2015. Anti-Jewish incidents increased by 93% and anti-Muslim incidents by 70%. During this period, the number of offences against Muslims rose from 478 to 816, and against Jews from 258 attacks to 499. There was one anti-Jewish attack for every 601 Jews, and one anti-Muslim attack for every 3,676 Muslims. There are approximately 300,000 Jews and 3 million Muslims in the UK. Yet a Jew is four times more likely to be attacked than a Muslim. Of concern, was the British media's skewed coverage of these statistics – headlining the rise in anti-Muslim incidents, but minimising the far greater rise in anti-Jewish incidents.

In Australia, over the twelve month period from September 2014 to September 2015, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry (ECAJ) reported 190 anti-Jewish incidents, and the Islamophobia Register Australia (IRA) reported 280 anti-Muslim incidents. However, over half (55%) of the incidents in the IRA report are online content, including posted comments on social media. The ECAJ report, based on Australian Human Rights Commission criteria, records general expressions of hatred against the group (in the traditional media or online) separately, and not as "incidents." Only clear cases of person-on-person hate communications are included as incidents.

To compare like with like, it is instructive to extract from the ECAJ and IRA statistics the number of incidents affecting each community which involve physical abuse (including assaults, apprehended violence and damage to property) and person-on-person verbal abuse. For the twelve month period from September 2014 to September 2015, there were 128 anti-Muslim incidents and 180 anti-Jewish incidents in these categories

The Jewish community is the only community within Australia whose places of worship, schools, communal organisations and community centres need, for security reasons, to operate under the protection of high fences, armed guards, metal detectors, CCTV cameras and the like. The necessity is recognised by Australia's law enforcement agencies and arises from the high incidence of physical attacks against Jews and Jewish communal buildings over the last three decades, and continuing threats.

All the evidence, from the police services of European countries to the American FBI, and others who monitor hate incidents, shows that antisemitism remains the most enduring and deep-seated form of group hatred. In the last 25 years, antisemitic incidents have become increasingly frequent, violent and murderous, especially in the traditional heartland of antisemitism – Europe.

Yet in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, the inane proposition that "Islamophobia is the new antisemitism" continues to enjoy currency in some circles – including among people who should know better.


http://jewsdownunder.com/2016/08/05/statistics-prove-islamophobia-isnt-new-antisemitism/


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 04:31 PM

So, Iains, who determines what is thread drift and what is valid in terms of the thread topic. Certainly not the likes of me or or you. A thread often oscillates back and forth between the sublime and the ridiculous. The rule on moderation here is as little as possible. It is only when things get seriously nasty that threads get closed and posts get deleted. There is certainly nothing remotely nasty in anything about flowers or wine or scenery. There has been a lot of nastiness from some and some tongue in cheek banter between all parties. You have no right whatsoever to try to define the rules of what can and cannot be posted. If you have any complaints you can always ask the moderators to delete any nastiness. Deleting off topic posts on any thread would be a nightmare that I do not think anyone would willingly get involved in though.

In my opinion

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 03:57 PM

Number of police-reported hate crimes motivated by religion, Canada, 2013


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 03:44 PM

" Apologies for valiantly sticking to the point. It would be nice if it became more of a trend."

If you think it would be nice to stick to the point why babble on about weeds, bike rides, cheap wine deals at Tesco's etc. etc. Nice if everyone else stuck to the thread but apparently you retain the right to wreck it by deliberate sabotage. If you like the idea of sticking to the thread, what perversity drives you to do the opposite? and how do you expect sticking to the point to become a trend, bearing in mind the pathetic example you set?

Everyone can accept a degree of drift in a thread.Your version of drift is a massacre.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 02:04 PM

We've had an awful lot lot of bluster and changing the subject and attack as defence here. So a reminder. This is what was said:

"Jews are targeted more than all other religious groups combined in most of the western world today."

In spite of several requests for the numbers to support this,all we've had is a list containing a relatively extremely tiny number of unspecified religious-based hate crimes from one huge western country. A five-second geography lesson for bobad and Teribus: the US is not "most of the western world." We have also been dared to do the research that bobad and Teribus clearly haven't done. On top of that we have been treated to the usual tirade of diversions and insults for being so bold as to ask for verification. I've lost count of the number of times that Teribus has accused other people of making "baseless assertions," etc. (generally unjustified, but hey ho). Well if you routinely want your way clear to make these allegations against others, you'd better be squeaky clean yourself. I don't know whether the assertion about these hate crimes is true or not and it isn't a fight in which I have a dog. So I ask again. Where are the numbers that support the assertion? The ones so far on offer are not only vague and unspecified (what kinds of hate crimes, for example?), they are tiny in number considering the population of the one country in question, so they do not in any way satisfy the assertion. Apologies for valiantly sticking to the point. It would be nice if it became more of a trend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 01:57 PM

If I really ever said such nonsense QUOTE ME DOING IT!

You would if you could, liar.
Only by lying can you pursue your deranged vendetta.
It is a kind of madness Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM

Any moron can just go on denying Keith
You are beyond a joke
I've quoted yuo until I could memorize everything you've ever written
Deny this and you are a liar
You have - you are a liar Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 01:47 PM

Any moron can just go on denying Keith
You are beyond a joke
I've quoted yuo until I could memorize everything you've ever written
Deny this and you are a liar
You have - you are a liar Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:40 PM

Jim,
You did and you may add it to your list of things you have said and are now denying

Again you did


There you go again Jim!
If you want to accuse me of saying something, QUOTE ME.

What you do is give your interpretation of what I said, which I always deny because it is completely false.

If I really said such nonsense QUOTE ME DOING IT!!

Israel has torn up any workable definition of the term

Who cares how Israel defines it.
Britain and other democracies have adopted a sensible definition.
It may not suit you but you will have to get used to it.

Bobad is a hypocrite because he knows what you said about the Jewish Parliamentarians and he doesn't even have the bottle to condemn it.

That is because I said nothing that anyone could object to Jim.
You lied about me again because that is the only way you can pursue your deranged vendetta against me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:27 PM

Jim,
As no crime has ben specified, we are discussing unqualified accusations of anti-Semitism.

No Jim. What was being discussed was the number of hate crimes against Jews compared to other hate crimes.

"Not true."
How do you know if they are not described?


You claimed that "The few details of Labour so-called antisemitism that have emerged ar criticism of Israel and not the Jews."

That is not true.
Guardian last week,
"Walker was suspended by Labour in September after she questioned why Holocaust Memorial Day did not recognise other genocides, even though the day is set up to commemorate other atrocities, including those in Rwanda and Bosnia. "
"Walker, who was removed from her position in Momentum, also said she was concerned about definitions of antisemitism used by the party, saying she had not seen a definition she could "work with".
The long-time activist had previously been suspended from the party after she wrote on Facebook that Jewish people had been "the chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade". She was later reinstated."

"Ken Livingstone, the former mayor of London who was suspended last summer for comments that Adolf Hitler had been a Zionist, was referred to the NCC earlier this year"

" Marc Wadsworth, a party activist who, at the launch of a report into Labour and antisemitism, challenged Jewish Labour MP Ruth Smeeth that she was working "hand in hand" with the media."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/07/labour-members-may-be-expelled-over-claims-of-antisemitism-and-bullying


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 12:12 PM

"We were discussing incidents of hate crime, so your claim is irrelevant as well as being completely false."
As no crime has ben specified, we are discussing unqualified accusations of anti-Semitism.
"Not true."
How do you know if they are not described?
"They didn't. "
You did and you may add it to your list of things you have said and are now denying
"No-one here are "hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel."
Again - you did and you accused them of refusing to describe the anti-Semitism that was supposed to have taking place
"and I regard it, like you comparing of Israel to Nazi Germany, as anti-Semitic."
may Jewish critics have said exactly th same thing - including ex leaders of the Security forces.
Israel has torn up any workable definition of the term and has adopted the anti-Semitic defence of using the Jewish people as human shields so it doesn't have to answer for its war crimes.
We really are finished with this denying what you have written Keith - you wrote all the things I have accused you of and I've reproduced them over and over again.
Your persistent lying has no place here.
By the way - Bobad is a hypocrite because he knows what you said about the Jewish Parliamentarians and he doesn't even have the bottle to condemn it.
He would have denied that you said it ifhe believed that to be the case - he's had moths of opportunity to do so
So much for his defence of the Jewish People !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:05 AM

From The New York Times Opinion Section: "America is now governed by a president and party that fundamentally don't accept the idea that there are objective facts. Instead, they want everyone to accept that reality is whatever they say it is."

Much like Shaw's "we", wot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:50 AM

You are quite right, the bit of light hearted banter is very welcome.


The only problem is I now have a picture of a him mooning with his Union Flag Y fronts round his knees. Not a pleasant vista.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:48 AM

Jim,
Totally impossible to calculate as Israel has declared that 'New Antisemitism' is opposition to the State of Israel and is regarding all criticism of Israeli policy as "opposition", which it is not.

We were discussing incidents of hate crime, so your claim is irrelevant as well as being completely false.

The few details of Labour so-called antisemitism that have emerged ar criticism of Israel and not the Jews.

Not true.

some self-described supporters of the Jewish People didn't invent Parliamentary pacts of silence

They didn't.

It would also helpp if hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel, had the balls to condemn such 'Jewish pacts of silence' despite the fact that the culprit is one of his gang

No-one here are "hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel.
No-one but you has ever suggested a "Jewish pact of silence" and I regard it, like you comparing of Israel to Nazi Germany, as anti-Semitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:27 AM

No, fair's fair, Raggy. Teribus did try a bit of banter and it was a bit better than his usual feeble attempts. Still not original but better all the same. The fact that ake likes it makes me think it should probably be downgraded from a 4/10 back to a 2/10 though.

Sorry Teribus. Your second mate has let you down again.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:19 AM

Bobad, Even using your figures, the chances of someone of the Jewish faith being the victim of a hate crime, is approximately one in five hundred thousand.

Whilst not seeking to condone such crime we do need to get things in perspective that is one in half a million.

Good grief you have far more chance of being shot in the States.

Bet you support the gun lobby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 10:01 AM

On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what's racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they're wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:29 AM

"Interesting figures."
Totally impossible to calculate as Israel has declared that 'New Antisemitism' is opposition to the State of Israel and is regarding all criticism of Israeli policy as "opposition", which it is not.
The main victims of Israel's redefinition of antisemitism are the Jewish people who are blamed indirectly by Israelis for their ethnic cleansing policy - that is the inevitable result of claiming all criticism of its policies are "antisemitic".
The few details of Labour so-called antisemitism that have emerged ar criticism of Israel and not the Jews.
Of course, it would be helpful if some self-described supporters of the Jewish People didn't invent Parliamentary pacts of silence (the classic antisemitic slur, dating back to the Nazis is "a Jewish Plot")
It would also helpp if hypocrites who go ballistic at ny criticism of Israel, had the balls to condemn such 'Jewish pacts of silence' despite the fact that the culprit is one of his gang
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:25 AM

Ah Terikins coming out as the phantom flasher

Who is he, don't know
is he here, probably
think I see him sitting next to you
the famous phantom flasher

(from the singing of Gary & Vera Aspey)

Don't know about biter bit, foot in mouth springs to mind more readily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 09:16 AM

"By the way Gnome the incident you mention might have been that time in the summer of '75, I could send you a glossy 10x8 of it if you like. You'd recognise it immediately as it would bear a striking resemblance to what you see every time you look into a mirror. "

:0)....Brilliant! The biter bit I think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 08:29 AM

Interesting figures.

To put them in context we need to understand that the population of the USA is in excess of 300,000,000.

There were 1354 reported hate crimes according to the FBI figures.

I am NOT suggesting those crimes should be overlooked but in the great scheme of things they are rare.

You have a reasonable chance of being struck by lightening in the USA 267 per annum on average.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:55 AM

Of the 1,402 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

    52.1 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders' anti-Jewish bias.

    21.9 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.

    4.3 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.

    4.1 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

    3.6 percent were victims of anti-Eastern Orthodox (Russian, Greek, Other) bias.

    3.4 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.

    1.3 percent were victims of anti-Other Christian bias.

    0.6 percent were victims of anti-Mormon bias.

    0.4 percent were victims of anti-Hindu bias.

    0.4 percent were victims of anti-Sikh bias.

    0.1 percent were victims of anti-Jehovah's Witness bias.

    0.1 percent were victims of anti-Buddhist bias.

    0.1 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.

    7.6 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion).

Source: FBI 2015 Hate Crime Statistics

The numbers for Canada and the EU are very similar if not worse - look them up if you dare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:38 AM

Mr Carter, I would suggest that you look up what is involved in "colonising" any lump of land. You could then tell me how a country of less than 18 million people could "colonise" a massive land mass inhabited by over 350 million people. On the particular subject of "India" it did not become a country until 1947 prior to that it consisted of areas directly administered by the United Kingdom, which were collectively called British India, and those ruled by indigenous rulers, but under British tutelage or paramountcy, and called the princely states - India was NEVER a British colony, between 1600 and 1858 the British Government only interest in India was supporting any policy that ensured the best interests of the Honourable East India Company (A trading organisation). It was only after the Indian Mutiny of 1857 that the British Government stepped in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:22 AM

I always like the words attributed to Mahatma Gandi, David. When asked what he thought of Western civilisation he replied that it would be a good idea :-) I suspect it is an urban myth but would love it to be true.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:18 AM

So, in the words of your mate Keith then, Teribus, come up with some of these lies I have told and hypocrisies I have committed.

Slipped back into poor cliches with insults I'm afraid. You really do need to work harder at it. As to bullies - I find the best way to deal with them is take the piss. You don't like it much do you?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 07:03 AM

When it was colonised by the British, Teribus. Its certainly as much Western world as Russia which you seem to be including.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 17 - 06:59 AM

No Gnome just exposing you lot for the lying hypocrites that you undoubtedly are. As always with your brand of "socialism" one law applies to you and your pals while all others are held to a far more stringent standard - it is the only way you can enter any discussion, however when confronted, like all bullies, you turn and run.

Keep those hairy little fat knees of yours pumping away Gnome and remember to wear your hat - don't want to dazzle oncoming traffic do we Gnome? Mind your specs don't fog up.


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