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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

bobad 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM
Teribus 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 10:08 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 09:38 AM
bobad 20 May 17 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 17 - 04:49 AM
Teribus 20 May 17 - 01:44 AM
Greg F. 19 May 17 - 08:06 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 07:52 PM
Jim Carroll 19 May 17 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 07:45 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 05:24 PM
bobad 19 May 17 - 04:54 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 03:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 17 - 01:34 PM
Teribus 19 May 17 - 01:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 17 - 01:12 PM
Teribus 19 May 17 - 11:12 AM
bobad 19 May 17 - 08:45 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 08:42 AM
bobad 19 May 17 - 08:24 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 08:21 AM
bobad 19 May 17 - 08:16 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 08:02 AM
bobad 19 May 17 - 07:49 AM
Teribus 19 May 17 - 07:43 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 07:13 AM
bobad 19 May 17 - 07:09 AM
Teribus 19 May 17 - 07:04 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 17 - 05:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 17 - 05:22 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 17 - 04:17 AM
Teribus 19 May 17 - 02:56 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 17 - 09:04 PM
bobad 18 May 17 - 08:50 PM
Steve Shaw 18 May 17 - 08:18 PM
bobad 18 May 17 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 18 May 17 - 06:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 17 - 01:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 17 - 01:24 PM
Steve Shaw 18 May 17 - 10:35 AM
bobad 18 May 17 - 10:25 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 17 - 09:18 AM
bobad 18 May 17 - 07:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 17 - 05:09 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM

Keep on spouting your filth Carroll - you are creating quite the impressive record.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:59 AM

"The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers who were given land by the British" - Says Jom

Apart from the Jews that had remained in the area and had been happily living there for over 800 years, Jews from the diaspora had been returning to BUY land from 1847 until 1920 when the League of Nations Mandate was created and given to Great Britain to administer. In 1923 77% of the mandated territory was hived off and reserved solely for the Arab population of Palestine. The remaining 23% represents the area we now refer to as Israel, the West Bank and Gaza and in that area anyone of any religion, or any ethnic group could settle. This was a deliberate move on the part of the League of Nations an organisation that Jom seems to have completely forgotten about

Now then Jom care to tell us what land was given by the British to the Jews. As far as I am aware no land was given to anybody - more Jim "made-up-shit".

What was taken over from the Ottomans was territory where land was owned by the Ottoman government and much of the rest belonged to absentee landlords who lived in Cairo and Damascus. In the first period of Jewish settlement (1847 - 1920) the Ottomans made a point of deliberately selling the Jews land that they considered to be useless. In the second period 1920 to 1948 the Jews bought land either from the absentee landlords or from the British Administrators. The largest influx of Jewish settlers arrived AFTER the mandate period

1800 "Palestine":
Jews - 7,000
Christians - 22,000
Muslims - 246,000

1890 "Palestine":
Jews - 43,000
Christians - 57,000
Muslims - 432,000

1914 "Palestine":
Jews - 94,000
Christians - 70,000
Muslims - 525,000

1922 "Palestine":
Jews - 84,000
Christians - 71,000
Muslims - 589,000

1931 "Palestine":
Jews - 175,000
Christians - 89,000
Muslims - 760,000

1947 "Palestine":
Jews - 630,000
Christians - 143,000
Muslims - 1,181,000

So Jom in the 57 years from 1890 to 1947 the Jewish population of "Palestine" went from 43,000 to 630,000 an increase of 587,000 the majority of that increase would not be settlers but children born to Jewish families already there.

In the 70 years since the end of the mandate and the departure of the British the population of Israel has grown from 630,000 to roughly 8,310,000. Now we know where at least 830,000 of those came from - they were Jews forcibly robbed of all their possessions and deported from Arab countries where they had lived for centuries - no "right of return" for them Jom. But as with the previous increase most of the increase in population will be accounted for by the children born to Israelis already settled there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:45 AM

you have the fact that Israeli seizure of land has been internationally recognised as A CRIMINAL ACT

OK, but why single out Israel?
What about the Chinese in Tibet, the Turks in Cyprus, etc.?

you have the maps
Tthey show that Israel only took land while beating off attacks from it, and have taken not a square centimetre since 1973 while giving away vast swathes including half of Egypt and all of Gaza.

Yoou are the ones accusing the Jews of Israeli regime war crimes and atrocities - not me.

No. That is just you and Steve.

I don't think I have ever come across anybody who as ever attempted to denigrate the Jewish People to the extent you have

We have not.

In return to being allowed to settle as refugees from the RIGHT-WING NAZI Holocaust as refugees of course

Another recognised anti-Semitic statement Jim.

The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers who were given land by the British - they went on to steal more, as Ben Gurion admitted

He did not. As you know that quote was faked.


"In return for not being attacked, Israel would stop defending itself from those attacks and peace and prosperity would prevail."
An oft repeted lie to defend terrorist war crimes


It is a simple fact. Explain what you think wrong about it.

Israel will never stop its persecution and murder until all the Arabs havce been driven out and Israeel is a monotheistic state


No Arabs have been driven out of Israel. Their community prospers and grows and will soon outnumber the Jews.

"Israel withdrew. Gaza started attacking them,"
You've been given the maps - compare them to even the land the Brits gave


The only extra land is the West Bank.

The "people who know better" are the land thieves and killers who you have admitted you are defending

No. Just putting Israel's side of the story. What is wrong with that?

Respond to the articles or put up some that prove them wrong

it was one article and I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 10:08 AM

Jim,
The most of them were "blow ins" who came to the area as refugees
The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers

So you deny the right of Jews to exist in Israel.
That is considered to be ant-Semitic Jim. That view would not be tolerated by any political party here or in Ireland, except the extreme Left or Right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 09:38 AM

"They gave Gaza to the Arabs and what did they get in return - thousands of rockets fired at them"
The most of them were "blow ins" who came to the area as refugees
They were not in the position to give people who had occupied the land for many centuries anything
You are doing your mates' trick of ignoring the facts Bobad - you have the maps, you have the statements from Jews and non-jews alike, you have the fact that Israeli seizure of land has been internationally recognised as A CRIMINAL ACT
It's like praising a rapist by saying "at least he gave me my knickers back"
"but to be expected from haters like you."
Fuck you you cowardly antisemitic prick
Yoou are the ones accusing the Jews of Israeli regime war crimes and atrocities - not me.
I don't think I have ever come across anybody who as ever attempted to denigrate the Jewish People to the extent you have
If you are Jewish, you live up perfectly to the accusation of being a "self-hater"
Your preference appears to be for those who instigated the holocaust - a "kapo" mentality
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:37 AM

Israel never has to give anything in return.

They gave Gaza to the Arabs and what did they get in return - thousands of rockets fired at them.

They are also willing to give Judea and Samaria to the Arabs for a homeland but they will not do so until the security of their citizens is assured.

Israel giving over large tracts of the land that was assigned to them for their homeland by the League of Nations in return for peace and security is overly generous by any standard so saying that they never have to give anything in return is a blatant lie but to be expected from haters like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:14 AM

"Ah so Jom it would appear that it is perfectly OK for the Arabs of Palestine to openly declare their intention to grab land and annihilate a race but it is totally reprehensible for the Jews of Palestine to defend themselves. Tell me the rationale behind that thinking.
"
You've had a full answer to that one - your selective dyslexia appears to be becoming a problem to your understanding anything
Go find someone who can explain it to you
"Huh?
In return for what??
Huh ?
In return to being allowed to settle as refugees from the RIGHT-WING NAZI Holocaust as refugees of course
The cast majority of today's Israelis are settlers who were given land by the British - they went on to steal more, as Ben Gurion admitted
"In return for not being attacked, Israel would stop defending itself from those attacks and peace and prosperity would prevail."
An oft repeted lie to defend terrorist war crimes
Israel will never stop its persecution and murder until all the Arabs havce been driven out and Israeel is a monotheistic state
"Israel withdrew. Gaza started attacking them,"
You've been given the maps - compare them to even the land the Brits gave
The "people who know better" are the land thieves and killers who you have admitted you are defending
Respond to the articles or put up some that prove them wrong
Even the Israeli Jews are disturbed at what is happening
-you choose to defend Israeli fascism - you have never shown a shred of interest in what the Jews have to say - fully in line with your owen politics
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 17 - 04:49 AM

Jim and Steve
Israel never has to give anything in return.

Huh?
In return for what??

In return for not being attacked, Israel would stop defending itself from those attacks and peace and prosperity would prevail.

Israel had occupied Gaza.
It was actually quite prosperous then.
Israel withdrew. Gaza started attacking them, so Israel defended itself with a blockade, and incursions when the rocketing gets extreme.

Steve,
You keep saying that but you keep reading my posts. Are you insane?


Huh?? It is not "insane" to read the views of others even when they are easily proved wrong by quoting people who know better.
It is fun actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 17 - 01:44 AM

Ah so Jom it would appear that it is perfectly OK for the Arabs of Palestine to openly declare their intention to grab land and annihilate a race but it is totally reprehensible for the Jews of Palestine to defend themselves. Tell me the rationale behind that thinking.

It was the Arabs of Palestine who chose war over peaceful negotiation Shaw. So yes they all must live with the consequences of falling in behind that decision. They are being asked to totally surrender, it was they, under Arafat, who declared war on every single Jew in the world. The same rules applied to Germany, Italy and Japan - if memory serves me correctly, unconditional surrender didn't work out too badly for them.

After 70 years of failure what other choice have the Arabs of Palestine got? Another 70 years of the same? There is no realistic belief in any Two-State solution by anyone, the Palestinian State was always going to be totally dependent economically on Israel. So next time the Arabs of Palestine in Gaza "kick-off" just let them get on with it, no UN brokered ceasefire for Hamas to ignore and defy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:06 PM

And its gonna get worse - just give Twitler and Mad Dog Mattis a chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:52 PM

That's the nail hit exactly on the head, Jim. Israel never has to give anything in return. Why would they when they have the world's biggest poodle in tow who keeps the military money rolling in and who never offers any more than the mildest scolding for even the worst of the Israeli regime's outrages?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:46 PM

"1: Stop all attacks against Israel and Israeli citizens immediately"
Utter and (as usual) unqualified by a shred of proof bullshit
Israel is demanding total surrender and offering nothing in return
The main cuses of the violencxe is and always has been the land-grabbing policy of Israel aimed at ethnically cleansing the area
https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-council/index-of-countries-on-the-security-council-agenda/israel-palestine-and-the-occupied-territories/land-and-settlement-issues.html
Israel has no intention of halting this, on the contrary, THEY ARE NOW IRREVERSIBLE
Israel has now written into law
THE GRABBING OF PALESTINIAN LAND
Even Israeli politiicians are describing Israel's policy as "EVIL and DANGEROUS"
If you bunch of comedians have any evidence that this is not happening, produce it insted of trying to bully and bluster it through, just like your political right wing heroes
Were's your evidence for all this bullshit?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:45 PM

Israel doesn't have to worry about Egypt and Jordan because those two shabbily-governed non-democracies are propped up, conditionally of course, by the west. Of course, Israel is unconditionally propped up by the west, but hey.

The question "what kind of man are you" was a reference to your disgusting assertion that TWO MILLION Gazans, including over a million women and children, are living under a siege that they brought on themselves. I suppose you believe in original sin too. You have claimed so many times that Hamas don't allow elections and rule Gaza with an iron fist, etc., then you blame all two million for a self-imposed blockade, even though, according to you, they have no say. Well I think that isn't too far removed from the blanket attitude to the Jews that eventually led to the Holocaust. Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 05:24 PM

Yep, and I'm the Queen of Sheba. 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 17 - 04:54 PM

The person who wrote that Guardian piece is clearly a dupe of Hamas propaganda. The "new" document still calls for the liberation of all of historical Palestine (ie Israel), says armed resistance is the means to achieve that goal and does not recognize Israel's right to exist.

We have reaffirmed the unchanging constant principles that we do not recognize Israel; we do not recognize the land occupied in 1948 as belonging to Israel and we do not recognize that the people who came here [Jews] own this land

- Hamas senior official Mahmoud al-Zahar

"The uncomfortable fact is that the west is only too happy to leave the people of Gaza inside their prison; it suits us to do so. We don't care about blighted lives, or about whether the electricity is on six hours or four hours or if there is none at all."

The PA pays Israel for the power it provides to Gaza. Abbas is withholding payment as a power play against Hamas after they refused to purchase fuel from the PA for their only power plant. The PA also wants Hamas to either take full responsibility for the territory it governs, or to relinquish control back to it.

The author of this piece has bought into the blatantly false narrative of victimology as propagated by the fakestinians which has enriched their leaders to obscene levels. She demonstrates the soft bigotry of low expectations toward these people. Jew haters lap it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 04:04 PM

"Against all those, why should anyone listen to you Steve?"

You keep saying that but you keep reading my posts. Are you insane?

And no, you won't pay me to give you six of the best across your eager, naked buttocks, Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 03:56 PM

Well cherrypicked, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 17 - 01:34 PM

From Steve's Guardian article.

"Both the US and Britain have made clear they believe that nothing significant has altered in Hamas's position. A Foreign Office spokesman said: "They must renounce violence, recognise Israel and accept previously signed agreements."
True, what Hamas means by its new "General Principles and Policies Document" is still murky, particularly as it still holds out the possibility of a Palestinian state in all of historic Palestine. And it has published the changes now as a strategic move to secure its own survival.
After 10 years of a crippling economic siege Hamas is struggling to govern. It desperately needs money – not least to pay for fuel – and it needs Egypt to open its crossing into the Sinai. In return, both Egypt and Arab paymasters demand that Hamas show moderation."

What she gets wrong,
"The uncomfortable fact is that the west is only too happy to leave the people of Gaza inside their prison; it suits us to do so. We don't care about blighted lives, or about whether the electricity is on six hours or four hours or if there is none at all. "

No. We can do nothing while Hamas pursues its insane war against its neighbour!

"By accepting that Hamas has met at least some of the west's conditions,.."

It has not!

"On the Gaza streets there is no expectation of any change, only predictions of a new war."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/19/hamas-peace-gaza-stalemate


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 17 - 01:19 PM

Ah Keith, everybody must listen to Shaw because he used to be a teacher and here he behaves as though we are all in his classroom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 17 - 01:12 PM

You have quoted a long-standing pro-Israeli regime Islamophobe who justified an assassination.

She is just the latest, and only quoted because it is current.

I have quoted many senior, long established and prominent Labour people, including McDonnell the Shadow Chancellor and Corbyn's closest ally, Abbott who is very close to Corbyn, Watson the Deputy Leader, and prominent people like Khan and Thornberry.

Against all those, why should anyone listen to you Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 17 - 11:12 AM

"So, two million civilians who you claim are powerless to do anything about Hamas have brought that siege on themselves, eh, Teribus?"

Basically yes Shaw. Since 1948 they are and have been conditioned to be professional "victims" firstly by the Egyptians and Jordanians who by force of arms stole and annexed Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from the former mandated territory of Palestine then shut the "Palestinians" up in Refugee Camps - Not a squeak out of any of you about that (Wonder why?). Later when they withdrew the "Palestinians" under Arafat still kept those other "Palestinians" confined to those camps - now why was that Shaw - Meanwhile over in Israel they took in over 800,000 refugees and guess what? Not a single refugee in sight in the entire country.

The "Leadership" of the "Palestinians" found that by parading these poor unfortunates they could through guilt extract money from the non-frontline Arab states and the international community and a concerted campaign of provocation and management they have set out to paint the democratically elected government of Israel as black as possible. This task is made easier by gullible fools such as yourself and Carroll.

I mean, what kind of man ARE you?

You are asking the wrong person. You should be asking the "Palestinians" what sort of people they are. So far according to their track record they are the sort of people who simply cannot learn from their past mistakes. In 1948 they were sold the lie that the armies of five Arab nations would annihilate the Jews and drive them into the sea and that the land, businesses, farms and homes built up by the Jews would be theirs for the taking. They have been fed that cloud cuckoo-land fantasy ever since. By now after God knows how many attempts they should have resigned themselves to the fact that it is just not going to happen. Those two million people living in Gaza and the 2.1 million living in the West Bank have received more in international aid since 1948 than was made available to Europe under the Marshall Plan (Compare what was accomplished with that to what the "Palestinian Leaders" have done with the money that has been paid to them).

The solution is simple:

1: Stop all attacks against Israel and Israeli citizens immediately
2: Officially recognise the internationally recognised sovereign state of Israel.
3: Affirm that the State of Israel and all its citizens have the right to exist free from attack or the threat of attack.

Do that and the "blockade" stops
Do that and there will be no further armed responses by Israel to Arab provocation.

Ask the Egyptians and the Jordanians if Israel keeps their side of the bargain. As far as I know they have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:45 AM

You are truly despicable Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:42 AM

Come on, sunshine - your link! Which of those comments under the video would you like to endorse? Not nice, some of them, are they? How about the one that referred to rapefugees?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:24 AM

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:21 AM

Very amusing. Now tell me which of the comments from pro-Israeli regime supporters you agree with. Watch it folks if you scroll down them - there are plenty of little bobads down there! They make the video itself look positively saintly (which it isn't, of course).   A word in your shell-like, boobs: if you don't wish to be associated with stuff you link to in your posts, don't post it. Easy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:16 AM

Trying to link me to the comments below the video is despicable but that's you Shaw. Also your use of the word "siege" for what is a LEGAL blockade is despicable, it is a deliberate lie the purpose of which is to demonize Israel - there's a word for people who deliberately single out Israel for demonization - look it up. BTW, Israel delivers 1000 truckloads of goods to Gaza daily - some siege eh - liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 08:02 AM

I haven't said anything to either contradict or applaud that bloody video. It's a piece of propagandistic silliness. I've tried to tell you a hundred times that I have no truck with Hamas. What do you think of the vituperous nastiness from Islamophobes that it engendered in the comments underneath? Tell me which ones you agree with!

So, two million civilians who you claim are powerless to do anything about Hamas have brought that siege on themselves, eh, Teribus? I mean, what kind of man ARE you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:49 AM

just read the comments under the video.

So, nothing to say about the video just another attempt at diversion because the video shows you to be once again full of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:43 AM

"We are talking about two million fellow human beings here who are living under siege."

Self-imposed.

"We need to find ways out of the situation."

No Shaw - THEY need to realise that they have absolutely no right whatsoever to deny the right of Israel to exist. They need to realise that they must find a way of making peaceful co-existence work to the mutual benefit of all - They need to do that - NOBODY ELSE CAN MAKE IT WORK - a solution cannot be imposed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:22 AM

Yep, boobs, and just read the comments under the video. I'm guessing that you wrote them all in a fit of hatefest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:13 AM

Turn the record over, Teribus. Your unsupported anti-Hamas propaganda serves absolutely no useful purpose. We are talking about two million fellow human beings here who are living under siege. We need to find ways out of the situation. Read the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:09 AM

Yes, let Hamas show you what it's really like in Gaza these days. Get those blinkers off. As the sign says: Thank you Hamas


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 17 - 07:04 AM

What it is really like in Gaza these days is the direct result of choices made and actions taken by those who "govern" Gaza (And I use the word "govern" in it's loosest possible meaning).

What it is really like in Gaza these days is the people live with the fact that they live in a one party "state" - anyone wishing to provide a political alternative may find themselves taking a flying lesson without the benefit of an aeroplane from the roof of a seven storey building.

What it is really like in Gaza these days is the people, even in this one-party paradise, have not had the chance to exercise their right to vote since 2006.

What it is really like in Gaza these days is that while the Hamas government, throughout this "blockade", can smuggle in weapons, explosives, in fact anything they want. But they cannot for some strange reason do anything to alleviate the shortages that the people they are supposed to be governing are experiencing.

What it is really like in Gaza these days Shaw is that cement, wiring and steel can be smuggled in to build shelters for Hamas "fighters", yet Hamas have not built one shelter for the people they are supposed to be governing while ordering them to remain in locations that the IDF have clearly issued warnings that they are about to attack.

They have been on the losing side of this conflict, entirely of their own making, for 70 years - that by anyone's measurement is a bloody slow learning curve - high time they started learning from history - their fault - entirely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 06:22 AM

"Instead I have quoted senior, long established and prominent Labour people"

You have quoted a long-standing pro-Israeli regime Islamophobe who justified an assassination. Why not look at the excellent article in today's Guardian by Sarah Helm instead. Find out what it's really like in Gaza these days. Get those blinkers off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 17 - 05:30 AM

Steve, you criticise and dismiss Ellman for being anti Hamas so presumably you are pro Hamas, a recognised terrorist group responsible for indiscriminate atrocities such as bombing buses and the kidnap and murder of school kids.

On the Blasphemy thread you express your abhorrence for capital punishment. Israel is the only state in the region that does not practise it. Hamas actually lynches opponents in the street without even a pretence of a trial!

What is the real, underlying reason for your hatred of Israel and support for its enemies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 17 - 05:22 AM

Steve,
. The trouble with your "authorities," Keith, which are myriad (you employ them routinely instead of presenting honest argument), is that you select the ones that reinforce your personal prejudices

Unfair Steve. You folks just deny that the Labour Left has had serious problems with anti-Semitism.
You would rightly dismiss my own view on the subject because, like you, I have no inside knowledge.
Instead I have quoted senior, long established and prominent Labour people who you can try to dismiss but only make yourself foolish by doing so.
They know rather better than you what is going on in the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 17 - 04:17 AM

The man who never "directly answers" anything gives us a perfect example of a rabid post. 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 19 May 17 - 02:56 AM

Ducked the question didn't you Shaw (Par for the course for you - that is what you normally do - others, according to your diktats have to explain and substantiate everything but you for some reason best known to yourself are excused this essential process and requirement)

Keith A's very reasonable question - "Why would anyone not be "rabidly anti" a brutal terrorist organisation.
Are you not Steve?


No direct answer from Shaw because both Shaw and Carroll are apologists for Hamas, the internationally recognised terrorist organisation. The organisation that Corbyn and his hard-left pals in the Labour Party refers to as being "friends" (No bloody wonder Jewish members of the Labour Party feel "uncomfortable").

Shaw now mithers about use of the word "rabid", yet he was the one to introduce it with reference to someone who quite rightly forcefully condemns Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Hamas has no interest at all in peace, or in any peace process, because they are making too much money from the current situation - money for nothing. The so-called "leaders" of the Arabs of Palestine have betrayed and let their people down at every turn since 1948. They have robbed them of hope and deliberately kept them in poverty and despair, because poverty and despair is good for attracting billions in international aid and assistance that is paid directly to the "leaders" for them to disburse as they see fit, the "people" never get a sniff of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 17 - 09:04 PM

Have a nice cup of cocoa and toddle off to bed. Don't forget your teddy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 17 - 08:50 PM

Perhaps you should look up "rabidly."

Perhaps you should - you're the one playing silly word games to divert when cornered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 17 - 08:18 PM

Dear me. Do you think that Neville really knew what was going to happen to six million Jews, idiot?! Perhaps you should look up "rabidly." It more than implies brainless advocacy, unthinking passion and mindless fervour. Not my approach. Show us that it isn't yours. You may struggle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 17 - 07:43 PM

Being rabidly anti-Hamas is the correct approach to take with rabidly genocidal, anti-Semitic terrorists. A measured approach is what Neville Chamberlain tried with that other rabidly genocidal anti-Semite - how did that work out for him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 17 - 06:55 PM

Does it really. The trouble with your "authorities," Keith, which are myriad (you employ them routinely instead of presenting honest argument), is that you select the ones that reinforce your personal prejudices. This particular lady fits your bill perfectly. I'm glad you admit that she's rabidly anti-Hamas. Personally, I prefer a more measured approach. Be more honest, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 17 - 01:25 PM

.....That makes her a better "authority" than you Steve!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 17 - 01:24 PM

Ellman is rabidly anti-Hamas and rabidly pro-Israel.

Why would anyone not be "rabidly anti" a brutal terrorist organisation.
Are you not Steve?

What is wrong with being pro-Israel, the only democracy in the region?

Why does that make her views on Labour anti-Semitism suspect when there are so many others in labour who say the same?

She is a British Labour Co-operative politician who has been the MP for Liverpool Riverside since 1997. In Parliament, she is Chair of the Transport Select Committee and a member of the Liaison Committee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 17 - 10:35 AM

Well she certainly doesn't understand it, unfortunately. Most of her ranting about it is about Israel, not about Jews at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 17 - 10:25 AM

Ellman is rabidly anti-Hamas and rabidly pro-Israel

As are all decent, fair minded people who don't have a problem with Jews.

There has been, Ellman argues, a "real change in how people understand modern anti-Semitism."

Some people excepted, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 17 - 09:18 AM

Ellman is rabidly anti-Hamas and rabidly pro-Israel. Anyone reading the two posts above should be aware of that.

Extracted from wiki.
She voted "very strongly for" the Iraq War, "very strongly against" an investigation into that war, and "very strongly for" renewal of Trident, Britain's nuclear weapons programme.

Ellman is also the Chair of the Jewish Labour Movement and Vice Chair of Labour Friends of Israel and has been an active spokeswoman in Parliament on issues relating to the Middle East. Ellman is a member of Labour Friends of Israel. [On the] assassination of Sheikh Yasin, the 66-year-old spiritual leader of Hamas, [she] told Parliament that "Israel's action in killing Sheikh Yasin was a legitimate response to an extraordinary situation". In January 2011, during a debate on Antisemitism she asked: "Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that the anti-Semitism that he describes is rarely opposed by those who declare themselves anti-racist?"

In the 2010 Election campaign leaflets had been distributed in her constituency of Liverpool Riverside targeting Mrs Ellman and Luciana Berger for their membership of Labour Friends of Israel and was headed "Don't vote for Friends of Israel". A leaflet headed "Remember Gaza" and subheaded "Don't vote for Labour Friends of Israel" was written and widely distributed by Liverpool Friends of Palestine and appears on the website LabourNet. An article appeared in The Jewish Chronicle entitled "Racist leaflets against Jewish candidates in Liverpool."


Not a great "authority" then, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 May 17 - 07:59 AM

Labour MP Louise Ellman is talking about our resident Labour Party members right there. If the party brass read their posts they would undeniably face suspension.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 May 17 - 05:09 AM

Labour MP Louise Ellman last week.
"Ellman also believes that, despite foot-dragging by the leadership, there is now "more of an understanding that there is an issue of anti-Semitism in the Labour party."
She points, too, to the fact that senior figures in the party, such as deputy leader Tom Watson, "continue to speak out very strongly against what's happening."

There has been, Ellman argues, a "real change in how people understand modern anti-Semitism."
She recognizes that while members of the Labour party have always recoiled from the problem in its "traditional form" — she cites opposition to Britain's pre-war fascist leader, Oswald Mosley, and his modern-day adherents in the far-right British National party — some have greater difficulty recognizing left-wing anti-Semitism.
The phenomenon is not a new one, she argues, but has become "more prominent and often shows in discussions about Israel and the way it is treated in a way no other country is."
It is not, though, simply how Israel is discussed which is problematic, but the manner in which parts of the left focus on it to the exclusion of many other issues and conflicts which Ellman finds disturbing.
"It is deeply problematic because Israel is singled out of all the disputes around the world," she says, "and it is then discussed in ways that don't recognize the existential problem that Israel faces, and it then emerges that Israel is uniquely evil — and that is a completely distorted reality."

http://www.timesofisrael.com/this-tough-as-nails-uk-politician-wont-be-cowed-by-the-anti-semitism-of-her-own-party/


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