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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

bobad 02 Jun 17 - 09:01 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 17 - 08:36 AM
bobad 02 Jun 17 - 08:21 AM
bobad 02 Jun 17 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 17 - 04:27 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 05:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 17 - 02:21 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 12:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 17 - 12:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 17 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM
Greg F. 01 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 17 - 10:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 08:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 17 - 06:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 17 - 05:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 17 - 03:12 AM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 04:24 PM
Greg F. 31 May 17 - 01:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 17 - 01:02 PM
DMcG 31 May 17 - 12:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 12:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 12:39 PM
akenaton 31 May 17 - 11:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 17 - 10:46 AM
DMcG 31 May 17 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 17 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 06:42 AM
DMcG 31 May 17 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 06:18 AM
DMcG 31 May 17 - 06:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 17 - 05:11 AM
Steve Shaw 31 May 17 - 04:51 AM
Iains 31 May 17 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 17 - 04:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 17 - 04:12 AM
Teribus 31 May 17 - 03:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 17 - 02:53 AM
Teribus 31 May 17 - 02:04 AM
DMcG 30 May 17 - 05:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 17 - 05:10 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 17 - 04:14 PM
akenaton 30 May 17 - 03:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 May 17 - 12:03 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 09:01 AM

British Jewish Voters' Choice: Anti-Semitism Today, or Tomorrow

Granted, the messages of Trump supporters are usually more crudely anti-Semitic, while the Corbynistas use the code-word "Zionist." When challenged, they say they're just critical of Israel and it has nothing to do with Jews. The conditioned reflex, however, is identical.

Why do both Trump and Corbyn attract anti-Semites? Perhaps the more pertinent question is: What is it about them that somehow gives license to anti-Semites, who rarely parade out in the open in this day and age, to out themselves and break cover?

In Corbyn's case there seem to be two answers. There's the anti-Zionism which has long been part of his radical leftist ideology that gives them a semblance of respectability. And then there's the current vogue for conspiracy theories on the extremes of politics. Where there are imagined conspiracies, there will always be imaginary Jews – sorry, Zionists.

So for British Jews, and in fact for all decent British voters, the choice next Thursday should be simple. Don't vote for a candidate who just can't help but attract anti-Semites.


Haaretz


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 08:36 AM

If you make an unreasonable and provocative remark that calls someone's integrity into doubt, as you did with Dave, you are trolling. A lot of people who voted either way in the referendum didn't exactly megaphone their principled opposition to referendums from the rooftops until after the result. Yes I'm against referendums and always have been, but yes I voted, forced into that unenviable position on a massively vital issue by a baby-faced ex-Etonian clown who was publicly fellated by a dead pig. The fact that a referendum took place at all will ignite opinions, and this one in particular, which endured an extremely disreputable campaign, even more so. The campaign highlighted precisely what is flawed and downright undemocratic about referendums, not least the fact that just 38% of the electorate are dragging us out of Europe and into disaster. You have no right to suggest that people on the losing side whinged afterwards only because they lost and you make it even worse when you aim that slight at one person in particular who you don't actually know. Your position is without evidence and is incredibly childish to boot.

Bobad, you are stalking. Again. So what's new? I note that you post but have nothing to say. So what's new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 08:21 AM

BRITISH ELECTIONS 2017 A Corbyn win would deeply worry many Jews, and chill UK ties with Israel

Most Jews made up their minds about Corbyn long before the campaign began.

A long-time critic of Israel and pro-Palestinian activist who has had an unfortunate knack of consorting with a motley crew of Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites, the Labour leader is, perhaps, most famous in Jewish circles for having described Hamas and Hezbollah as "friends."

Unfortunately for his party, new revelations during the campaign will simply have reinforced many of these perceptions. Earlier this week, the Labour leader was forced to deny that he participated in a wreath-laying in 2014 at the grave of one of those involved with the Munich massacre. But Corbyn's excuse — that he simply participated in a wider event marking Israel's 1985 bombing of the PLO headquarters in Tunis, itself a response to the murder of 15 Israeli civilians in Palestinian terror attacks — rather demonstrated why so many Jews distrust him.

That story was swiftly followed by the release of a 2010 interview in which Corbyn described Hamas as "serious, hard-working and… not corrupt."


TOI


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 08:14 AM

Posters who always accuse others of trolling are themselves trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 17 - 04:27 AM

No. That is just your latest unsupported and plainly wrong assertion.
Show where I have trolled if you can Steve.

It was perfectly reasonable to point out when Dave first asserted his opposition to referendums here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 05:09 PM

And you're trolling. That's a fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 02:21 PM

"Anyone who only mentions their disapproval of referendums after the vote has gone against them, inevitably faces a credibility problem. "

Sorry but that remains a fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 12:19 PM

It is not a fact. It's your severely unconsidered opinion. It's childish, it's unnecessarily provocative and it's trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 12:05 PM

You have never mentioned lots of things as well Keith but you will not find me saying that because you have not mentioned them before they cannot be true. As ever...

Different morality
Different language
Different planet

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:53 AM

Sorry Dave, cross posted.

If you mentioned it before it does not apply to you.
I don't do Facebook, but you did post about the referendum here and did not mention your disapproval here until after the vote went against you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:50 AM

Dave says it does not apply to him anyway, so who is being smeared?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:48 AM

So, who only mentioned their disapproval after the event then, Keith?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 11:40 AM

"Anyone who only mentions their disapproval of referendums after the vote has gone against them inevitably faces a credibility problem. "

Sorry but that remains a fact, not a smear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 10:59 AM

Speaking of crooks.....

Brexit leader Nigel Farage is 'person of interest' in FBI investigation into Trump and Russia.

FBI interested in former Ukip leader's ties with people connected to US president and WikiLeaks' Julian Assange.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/01/nigel-farage-is-person-of-interest-in-fbi-investigation-into-trump-and-russia


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 10:29 AM

Abdicating responsibility that should read. Although abducting could be an option...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM

Ah, the ones where we were taking the piss because you said you had nothing more to say and then posted again a dozen or so times? Tell you what, Keith. I have stated quite categorically that by putting important issues to a referendum the government of the day are abducting responsibility. I have always said it. I probably always will unless I am convinced otherwise by events I cannot yet forsee.

You do not believe me. I could not give a shit what you believe. Do you really think that there is any point continuing down this road?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 08:06 AM

It is not reasonable. It's a smear. If you want to question someone's integrity you need to show your evidence. Actually, it's trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM

"Anyone who only mentions their disapproval of referendums after the vote has gone against them inevitably faces a credibility problem. "

In what sense is that childish or stupid Steve?
I think it a reasonable observation.

Dave, I referred to your posts about the debate made in April 2016.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 06:19 AM

That was a childish and stupid remark, Keith.

I don't think that all politicians are crooks. Paul Tyler, our MP for years, was no crook and neither was his LibDem successor Dan Rogerson. One of their Tory predecessors was, however. No names, no pack drill. Jeremy Corbyn is no crook and neither was Michael Foot or Jimmy Carter. Jo Cox was no crook (my sister knew Jo and her mother from Jo's childhood). It's an ignorant remark to condemn most or all politicians as "all crooks" or "all the same." We have to have politicians. They need both our close scrutiny and our support. If we don't take an interest in politics, which is quite hard work, or don't vote in elections, we'll get the politicians we deserve. If they turn out to be "all crooks," etc., then we should be looking to ourselves. We put them there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 05:10 AM

Just a few points on that Keith.

1. I didn't post anything at all on here between April and October 2016
2. My Facebook status throughout June 2016 reflected my views
3. I really could not give a shit whether you believe me or not
4. The people that do matter know the truth

Now, can we get back to something sensible?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jun 17 - 03:12 AM

Dave, I do not claim to know anything about you, but anyone who only mentions their disapproval of referendums after the vote has gone against them inevitably faces a credibility problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:24 PM

In my experience Greg, most politicians are "crooks"!

I am extremely sorry "D", that was careless of me and I of course withdraw the remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 17 - 01:48 PM

The slogan was "political speak", but it was not a lie.


Bullshit. Right up there with "I am not a crook".


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 17 - 01:02 PM

Whatever Keith. As you seem to know more about my views than I do maybe you can tell me what I think about the price of fish. Or genital warts. Or Justin Bieber...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 17 - 12:50 PM

It wasn't me who used the word disingenuous, ake, but we will let that pass.

As I have said several times, I go with the main Aquinas criteria for a lie: the intention to mislead. That is not the same as an untruth. Sorry if we disagree about something so fundamental, but there we are.

And you are right that there are alternative phrases that could have been used to make it clear that money was to be spent on the NHS, has that been the intention. Equally there are phrases that could have been used to make it clear it was only a suggestion has that been the intention. The lie is in the equivocation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 12:46 PM

Today, Labour party member Philip Jones who allegedly accused a Jewish BBC journalist of being a "Zionist" after she conducted a car crash radio interview with Jeremy Corbyn has been suspended by the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 12:39 PM

Dave, during the referendum campaign you posted about the debate.
You did not mention that you do not believe in referendums then, so perhaps not a strongly held view of yours.
Mind you, we all thought that remain was going to win back then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 17 - 11:33 AM

Keith is not being disingenuous "D"....you are.
The slogan was "political speak", but it was not a lie.

If the slogan had said "we will spend that money on the NHS"...that would have been a lie, unless of course the government do spend it on the NHS, then it would be the truth.

"Let's spend the money on the NHS instead" is an invitation to consider how the money should be sensibly spent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 17 - 10:46 AM

Not on here Dave.

Hardly surprising seeing as Mudcat forms around 0.01% of my life, it is first and foremost a folk music forum rather than a political site and it is full of people who have nothing better to do than try to win pointless victories.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 17 - 07:22 AM

Buses can be repainted.

But if the list was longer, what is the explanation for why, out of all the possibilities, they chose the NHS? Was it at random? Or did they have a reason to select it and if so, what was it?

I suggest it was not accidental.

I also suggest it was to make people think the funds would be going into the NHS. To deliberately compose a slogan that appears to say one thing nut on careful reading says another is something to be ashamed of, not proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 17 - 07:22 AM

Stop being so bloody disingenuous, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 06:45 AM

We have a potential £350m a week saving we can spend on useful things.
Here is our list of useful things we are prepared to.make a big thing of:
1. The NHS


There was not room for a comprehensive list on the side of a bus.
It was just a slogan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 06:42 AM

Dave,
Yes, Keith. I did.

Not on here Dave.
You made a couple of posts about the referendum debate but never disparaged the idea of actually having a referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 17 - 06:38 AM

That sounds like a "No I can't".

So the position seems to be:

We have a potential £350m a week saving we can spend on useful things.
Here is our list of useful things we are prepared to.make a big thing of:
1. The NHS


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 06:18 AM

It was a slogan, not a manifesto!

It was debated in depth at the time. We all had the chance to weigh up the justifications and criticisms of and for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: DMcG
Date: 31 May 17 - 06:07 AM

Rubbish. You're rewriting history. Go back and check your facts

Ake was right. 

The slogan on the bus was,
"We send the EU 350 million pounds a week
let's fund our NHS instead."

That is a statement of fact followed by a suggestion of how else it might be spent.


So I ask you what I asked ake: can you give evidence of any other suggestion with similar prominence? Was there a bus saying "Let's fund our police instead" for example?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 17 - 05:11 AM

Yes, Keith. I did.

Iains

The idea that MPs are superior beings more capable of voting for in or out is risible.

It is indeed. They are far from superior beings but they are paid well to do a job. They are voted in to do that job. We fund an army of advisors and personal secretaries to help them to do that job and when they refuse to it, I think it stinks.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:51 AM

I for one have spoken out against all referendums all my sentient life.

I note that you've admitted at last that you're a Tory, Teribus. I refer to the word "unfortunately" in your patronising history of referendums post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:43 AM

D the G. There is also a place in democracy for referendums. Many EU members have held referendums relating to the EU, including Greenland that voted for out. You frequently state that the populace is not capable of making a decision and that politicians are. Is papal infallibility shared among MPs upon election, or are they purely elected because the local electoral committees parade them before us. Is Boris the clown more qualified than I am to vote on leaving or staying in the UK. The fallout of a successful Brexit impacts on individuals in totally different ways and no doubt sways their voting decision.
The idea that MPs are superior beings more capable of voting for in or out is risible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:41 AM

Dave, did you ever speak out against referenda before that vote?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:26 AM

Rubbish. You're rewriting history. Go back and check your facts

Ake was right.

The slogan on the bus was,
"We send the EU 350 million pounds a week
let's fund our NHS instead."

That is a statement of fact followed by a suggestion of how else it might be spent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 17 - 04:12 AM

But as you seem to take the view that they should decide all major issues then I take it that you fully agreed with their decisions with regard to "Blair's wars".

I take it you are having some difficulty comprehending what I am saying, Teribus. The government of the day, regardless of who they are, have a mandate to run the country on our behalf. They should do it. Whether we agree with what they are doing or not, it is their job. If enough people disagree, we have the choice to elect a new government. It is how democracy works.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 17 - 03:39 AM

The government of the day should have the bottle to make a decision on all major issues. It is what they are elected to do. It is what they are paid for. It is why we pay an army of civil servants to advise them.

Well judging from what came out the mouths of those elected politicians, who oddly enough Gnome, only seemed to adopt what their civil servants told them when it suited them. They appear to be less informed than most.

But as you seem to take the view that they should decide all major issues then I take it that you fully agreed with their decisions with regard to "Blair's wars".

The Government of the day is elected to govern the country and act in the country's best interests, politically, economically and in all matters concerning the security of the nation and the safety of it's population. When matters arise that dictate a major change (i.e. Whether we want to change our voting system, or, whether or not we wish to be members of the EU) then the entire electorate of the country must be asked to give direction, once those views are known it is up to the government of the day and the civil service to implement that decision in the best possible way in the best interests of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 17 - 02:53 AM

1: Referendums seem perfectly OK to those complaining about them here whenever they give what they consider the right result. The British electorate seem well enough informed and qualified then.

Read my lips.

I have said over and over and over again that parliament should have made the decision rather than abdicating it to an ill informed and misled populace.

This is true of ALL referendums. I disagree with them in principle whatever the result. The government of the day should have the bottle to make a decision on all major issues. It is what they are elected to do. It is what they are paid for. It is why we pay an army of civil servants to advise them.

2: The British electorate were lied to in 1973 when we were asked to vote to join.

3: The British electorate were lied to in 1975 when we were asked to confirm our desire to stay in Europe.


Yes and yes. Please provide examples of me complaining about the results in 1973 and 1975 :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 17 - 02:04 AM

Lies, the EU, the British electorate and the referendums:

1: Referendums seem perfectly OK to those complaining about them here whenever they give what they consider the right result. The British electorate seem well enough informed and qualified then.

2: The British electorate were lied to in 1973 when we were asked to vote to join.

3: The British electorate were lied to in 1975 when we were asked to confirm our desire to stay in Europe.

4: Over the years as the EU forced through it's political agenda people began to realise what was going on. Maastricht was almost a bridge too far, we objected and came a way with a rebate. Lisbon however was even too much for three other members of the Union (France, The Netherlands and Ireland).

5: Over the changes via more than 480 articles in the Lisbon Treaty the British electorate started to grumble and Gordon Brown promised the electorate a referendum on EU membership. That promise was reneged on when the original Lisbon Treaty was ditched and via a technicality was reintroduced by the EU Commission in a much reduced form that did not require unanimous Council of Ministers approval.

6: In the Conservatives 2010 General Election manifesto an EU Referendum was promised by Cameron. Unfortunately the Conservatives did not win the 2010 election with sufficient seats to form a Government and went into a coalition with the Liberal-Democrats who insisted that the promised referendum was abandoned.

7: Ever since Lisbon a small political party dedicated to getting the UK out the EU was becoming more and more vocal, started to threaten the voting base of all the main UK political parties.

8: In the Conservatives 2015 General Election manifesto the promise to hold a referendum on EU membership reappeared, this time they did win with a sufficient number of seats because the Lib-Dem vote basically collapsed. True to their word the Conservatives held the referendum and the vote was to Leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: DMcG
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:31 PM

leave campaign said that it was money which "could" be spent on the NHS, meaning that it would be "better spent" on the NHS or any other worthy cause.

Ok, show me a genuine photo of a bus used in the referendum that referred to any other worthy cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 05:10 PM

I have said over and over and over again that parliament should have made the decision rather than abdicating it to an ill informed and misled populace. The party with the overall majority in parliament at the time of choosing to put the issue to the people was the Tories. Even if the other parties disagreed it did not matter. They were in overall control. The buck stops there.

As to keeping us all informed try this for size

Vote Leave director admits they won because they lied to the public

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 17 - 04:14 PM

Rubbish. You're rewriting history. Go back and check your facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 17 - 03:44 PM

The money saved by leaving the EU was never "promised" to anybody.

The leave campaign said that it was money which "could" be spent on the NHS, meaning that it would be "better spent" on the NHS or any other worthy cause.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 12:03 PM

Any party voting against a referendum would have been committing suicide.

Yes, so Dave was wrong to blame it all on the Tories.

No mention was made of being qualified to vote. Only qualified to make a decision.

The decision was made by the referendum vote Dave. Who did you mean was not qualified to make the decision by voting?

Steve, as you say, both sides made misleading statements that were challenged and debated openly for us all to be kept informed.


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