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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Jim Carroll 18 Mar 17 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 17 - 01:09 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 17 - 01:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 17 - 01:03 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 17 - 12:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 17 - 12:21 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 17 - 09:53 AM
bobad 18 Mar 17 - 09:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 17 - 09:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 17 - 09:10 AM
bobad 18 Mar 17 - 09:04 AM
bobad 18 Mar 17 - 08:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 17 - 08:41 AM
bobad 18 Mar 17 - 08:26 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Mar 17 - 07:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Mar 17 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 17 - 06:04 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 17 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Mar 17 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 17 - 05:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Mar 17 - 05:15 AM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 10:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 09:56 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 09:31 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 09:07 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 09:02 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 08:49 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 08:47 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 08:26 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 08:19 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 07:53 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 07:08 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 07:03 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 06:45 PM
Greg F. 17 Mar 17 - 06:26 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 05:34 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 04:30 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM
bobad 17 Mar 17 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 03:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Mar 17 - 03:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 17 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Mar 17 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Mar 17 - 02:09 PM
Greg F. 17 Mar 17 - 02:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Mar 17 - 11:34 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 10:55 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Mar 17 - 10:45 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 01:20 PM

This – about three nights of rioting that took place in Belfast 2010 which you attempted to prove were the fault of young children and "outside influences"
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:48 AM
"All the reports and witnesses refer to that. So many children that the Northern Ireland Children's Commissioner felt the need to make statements about it.
Put up some evidence that there were not large numbers of kids Jim?
You can't because they were there."
As with the "No Traveller" signs – I have no doubt that, having denied you said this, you will now attempt to re-open the argument that children were responsible for three nights of rioting.
Not for me I'm afraid Keith
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 01:09 PM

Ah - what the hell - I can do this and carry on with the desk work.
No Traveller signs.
I explained I had been part of a photographing campaign that lasted for several years, trying to get the practice of putting these signs up
I linked you to one of these photographs which had been part of the notes to a CD of Travellers we had put out
I provided documented evidence from organisations like The Runnymede Trust, who had documented these signs and produced descriptions of court cases
I even described having visited 2 pubs in the Bristol area which were still displaying those notices at the time of out argument
I provided links to a book entitled 'Gypsies' by prominent civil servant, Sir Angus Fraser, which features a chapter of these signs and points out that they were common because Travelers were not protected under the race- discrimination laws.
After all of this, you still denied that they were common and at several stages, became abusive and called me a liar and a bigot.
If this is not defending these signs, I don;t know what is
These are some of the samples of around 90 postings you made on the 'No Travellers site
I have little doubt that, having denied defending these signs, you will now attempt to reopen the argument and claim they were not around as I said they were.
I thinl 90 postings from you are quite enough - don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 03:16 PM
Jim, you said they were common, I said I had never seen one, and you accused me of lying.
I am no liar, and nor are the others who have never seen one.
You know that they have been illegal here for fourty four years.
Your contention is that the people here are so racist they ignore the law, and the police so racist they allow it.
You are wrong about our people.
Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM
Sorry, illegal for FOURTY SIX YEARS !
Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:57 AM
Jim Carroll, you were wrong to state that" "No Travellers Served" is a common notice throughout Britain "
It is not
Most of us have never seen one in our lives, and to say that does not make us liars or racists.
Far from being common, they are extraordinarily rare, and probably do not exist any more.
You were wrong to suggest that the British people are so racist they ignore the laws.
You were wrong to suggest that the British police are so racist they allow it.
You were wrong about us.
You were wrong about me.
Thank you.
keith.
Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:38 AM
I have never seen one, and most contributors have not.
That means they are not common.
I am challenging nothing else Jim, but you stated they were common and I disagree.
They are not common.
If they exist at all they are extraordinarily rare.
You were wrong.
Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:40 AM
You are in England now right?
Found any?
Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:29 AM
You said " "No Travellers Served" is a common notice throughout Britain "
I know from my own experience that it is not.
You said "Because a handful of individuals here have not seen them is no proof whatever that they do not exist in the numbers that have been quoted"
I think it is proof.
How many "individuals" accepted that the notice IS common throughout Britain?
Answer NONE.
You were wrong about us, and about me.
(AGAIN!)

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:22 AM
"YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN ACCESS TO HUNDREDS OF PAGES OF OFFICIALLY RESEARCHED AND ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE"
Jim, those of us who live in this country do not need your experts to tell us what it is like.
We live here.
I rate the objectivity of a cross section of Mudcatters way above that of your agenda ridden spokespersons trying to justify their pay-packets.
"No Travellers Served" is NOT a common notice throughout Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:52 PM
There are lots of pitches around Hertford.
Just no signs.
Your Glasgow friend said they WERE common once.
None now then.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:19 PM
Are you implying that the poster is lying and not that the notice was taken down so as not to spoil the photograph and frighten the horses?
Yes I am.
He is a troll.
There is nothing on streetview picture either.
If it were a real post I would check further.
Just a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:10 AM
Jim, are we British "deeply racist" by our genes or are we culturally implanted with it?
Keith has just accused a poster of lying on the basis that a publican wishing to publicise his pub could quite possibly have removed a 'no Traveller' notice before taking a publicity photograph
No Jim.
I was prepared to believe it and began looking in to it.
Then I noticed that the troll had never posted here before.
He was just winding us up, but you could give the place a call or visit them next week.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 03:33 AM
I just said that the signs are not "common throughout Britain."

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 05:58 AM
Jim, you stated that ""No Travellers Served" is a common notice throughout Britain "
I denied it.
I was right and you were wrong, as usual.
All the evidence you put up was gone through by CS, and found not to be evidence at all.
The first hand evidence of numerous Mudcatters actual experience clearly showed that the signs are NOT common throughout Britain.
You were wrong about that Jim, and that is all I have argued.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 06:02 AM
Which "two pubs in the Bristol area" Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 08:47 AM
He started this thread in order to challenge the documented abuse of Travellers
No.
It was to find out if "no travellers" signs are common throughout Britain as you claimed.
We found they are not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 05:04 AM
"An ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or unrelated belief of the person supporting it"
I am not a racist.
The British are not deeply racist.
Those signs are not remotely common throughout Britain.
There are not two pubs in Bristol displaying those signs.
Jim is a shocking liar and a deeply prejudiced bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:02 AM
So you have finally stopped trying to defend the ludicrously indefensible Jim.
We have hundreds of Mudcatter years of never seeing one, yet you claim to have found two in less than a week.
If you want to be believed, identify the pubs so someone can discreetly check.
Re the ad hominem thing;
It was not a racist theory because the proponents had impeccable anti-racist credentials and most were Pakistanis.
Certainly not racist to just report it!
The question is not why I came to believe them, but why anyone should imagine they know better.
To be blunt, why would any sentient, rational person dismiss all those lifetimes of experience, and listen to a twat like you?

Subject: RE: BS: 'NoTravellers'common UK sign?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 04:21 AM
I sincerely wish you well with your medical troubles Jim.
No-one here would cause any trouble over those pubs if they exist.
We could circulate it by pm and be very discreet, as I said.
I think you made them up Jim, but am prepared to be proved wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 01:04 PM

So tiny a proportion of the populations of countries mentioned, according to your stats, Keith, that I have to wonder what the song and dance is about. Just about four times more likely to be a Jewish victim of a hate crime than to be struck by lightning. Sounds like a pretty safe country in which to be a Jew to me. You are talking this up in the same way as you talk up the "serious antisemitism problem" in Labour (the one party that has been honest enough to put the issue in the spotlight) in which there have been a few handfuls of mostly unproven cases out of a membership of six hundred thousand. By highlighting and tirelessly publicising what seem to be minor issues, according to your stats at least, it seems to me that you are trying to portray Jews as perpetual victims, thereby putting them more in harm's way. Of course, it may be that you regard the stats as just the tip of the iceberg. If so, you seriously need better stats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 01:03 PM

No wriggling here. I guess he is in the same mold as some others I could mention, Steve. Has his own meaning for everyday words.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."


The rain did keep off in Haworth. Lovely drive over the tops. Could not see much from the car but the daffs are out in force everywhere and some of the trees are blossoming. Definitely springlike.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 12:49 PM

Piss off Keith
All this is old history - I linkyou to what you actually said, you go on offending it
I don't lie - I don't need to
Your racist and sectarian behaviur makes it unnecesary to do so
Your technique of prolonging these arguments if beginning to look like attention seeking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 12:21 PM

Steve,
they show that the problem they are supposed to be demonstrating is almost negligible.

Not true Steve.
You made the obvious point that hate crime victims are a tiny proportion of the population, but they unequivocally showed that in the West Jews are more likely to be such victims than any other group, exactly as Bobad claimed.

Jim,
How does the post of mine you quoted support your lie, "You have the evidence of the massive series of human rights abuses carried out by the Israelis and you have h
ve denied every single one without fail
I hope you enjoy your inhumanity as much as I have enjoyed exposing it."

Did I mention the "no Travellers served here" signs you spent weeks defending,

If that is not another lie Jim, QUOTE ME DEFENDING THEM!!

or the three days of rioting in Belfast which you attempted to blame on children,

If you are not lying and I said anything untrue, QUOTE ME SAYING IT!!,

If I said that about any violent march, QUOTE ME SAYING IT!!

As usual Jim, you give up trying to make a case, and start making up lies about me personally instead.
You do it every time!
You might as well hoist a white flag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 09:53 AM

So lies, damn lies and threadbare statistics! Who's doing the wriggling, boobs? 🤠

Missed the chance to do 1500, Dave, as I was in Bude Morrisons. I note that the firm is steadfastly refusing to put Signature Nero d'Avola back down to its five quid offer price. However, I had a e-voucher giving me 5000 Match 'n' More points if I spent forty quid, in effect a free fiver. Therefore, after some mental creative accounting, I decided to buy six bottles at six quid. My bill thereby crept above the forty quid mark and my points are on the way. That's the way to do it! But come on, Dave, 'ave a word about the Nero d'Avola, will you? 🍷🍷🍷


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 09:15 AM

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 09:13 AM

So, you misrepresented what I said to suit your agenda. What is new in that?

Off to do something better for the afternoon. Was hoping to come back with tales of a glorious spring day in Haworth but it looks like it is going to piss down. May just make something up instead. Looks like that is what most people do.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 09:10 AM

No cop out at all. You seem to learning form the master of changing the rules to suit. You misrepresented what I said so I have asked you to provide evidence. What is the matter? Do you not think you can?

Tell you what though. I will make a start if you like. Would you care to look up the statement Up until such a time, if they wish to slaughter one another then they'd best restrict their efforts to their own countries and tell us who made it? If you can interpret whatever I said as "most hate crimes etc." that I am pretty sure we have a case to interpret 'if they wish to slaughter each other' as it is OK for them to do as as long as they keep it local.

Now, would you care to provide evidence of where I said "the most anti-Muslim hate crimes being committed today are by Muslims in the Middle East". In Keith's words, good luck with that.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 09:04 AM

You are saying exactly what I stated here Dave, but of course you will try to wriggle out by the usual twisting and dissembling that you have learned so well from your fellow pack members.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 14 Mar 17 - 04:28 PM

Another strange assertion

but hate crimes directed against Muslims are but a fraction of those directed against Jews

Have you the remotest idea how many Muslims have been killed in hate crimes against their religion? How many Shia have been killed in Jihads by Sunnis? How many Sunni Muslims killed by Shias? Just because they believe a different version of the same fairy story. Or, because it is Muslim killing Muslim, is that OK?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 08:52 AM

Nice cop out there Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 08:41 AM

Tell you what poobad. I will provide evidence of that when you provide evidence that I said "the most anti-Muslim hate crimes being committed today are by Muslims in the Middle East".

Steve - I feel a Wheatcroft moment coming on. You can have 1500 as well if you fancy.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 08:26 AM

poobad and his friends seem to think it is OK if Muslims kill other Muslims.

Oh,do we Dave? I don't suppose you'd care to provide evidence of that. How about if I said Dave and his friends seem to think it's alright that Jews should be slaughtered by Muslims? Is that the level of discourse that you have sunk to since joining the pack of hyenas? Sad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 07:02 AM

Keith, we've been all over those curious statistics already. If they show anything at all they show that the problem they are supposed to be demonstrating is almost negligible. Aside from that, if you wish to invoke statistics that you've already used, especially when it was days ago in a long and busy thread, you don't just say "statistics show that...". You say "the statistics that I presented on Xth March show that...". How am I supposed to know which statistics he meant? And he hasn't clarified, despite being challenged. You lose. 🤡


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 06:58 AM

I am sure you spotted it, Steve, but "your friend Dave" did not say the most anti-Muslim hate crimes being committed today are by Muslims in the Middle East. I did say that hate crimes were hate crimes regardless of who committed them but poobad and his friends seem to think it is OK if Muslims kill other Muslims.

I went to Morris dance practice last night and managed to squeeze a few tunes on the concertina. Now, there is a crime against humanity. Pity the poor dancers :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 06:04 AM

Did I mention the "no Travellers served here" signs you spent weeks defending, or the three days of rioting in Belfast which you attempted to blame on children, or the violent sectarian marches which you tried to pass of as a pleasant day out?
Don't think I did!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:43 AM

"IF YOU ARE NOT LYING ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID, QUOTE ME!"
Happy to oblige Keith - just this once
Do Scandinavian states "recognise Israel's criminal behaviour?"
No they do not.
EU states?
No.
USA or Canada?
No.
Australia or New Zealand?
No.
India?
No.
The fact that self serving governments stay silent about war crimes and acts of terror when it is in their interests to do so, as they did about Assed's torture chambers, and America's slaughter off the Vietnamese people - is meaningless shite and it is stonewalling to offer it as a defence of Israel
Is THIS, and the fact that the Saudis are favourite customers for British arms and endorsement of their behavior?
If it isn't, you have no case - why should Britain look favourably on on terrorist regime and not another.
You have the facts - you are incapable if answering them honestly because of your extreme racist bigotry.
Cenre-right, my arse
You are the most extreme extremist on this forum
You have targeted Muslim culture and religion, Irish "brainwashed to hate Britain" children, immigrants and evicted and persecuted travellers with your incessant and obsessive bigotry
I can still remember the "no Dogs, no Irish" signs that were produced and you continued to deny
People like you would be dangerous if you were taken seriously
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:28 AM

Good morning Jim.
Are you going to quote me saying what you claimed, or do you acknowledge it was just your latest lies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:25 AM

"Israel has laid siege to the Gaza Strip"
Remind us how long the BLOCKADE has been going on Bobad
"Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan "
Wonder where British Fred and Betty West leaves us Brits, or Baruch Kopel Goldstein and Nicolai Bonner leaves the Israelis, or Ted Bundy leaves the Americans
The two countries with the largest number of serial killers are The United states (Gold medal) and Britain (silver medal)
What a sicko line of argument - even for Bobad
Jim Carroll
Forgot to mention the 1,492 civilian men women and children slaughteres by the Israelis in the 2015 invasion of Gaza


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:19 AM

Steve,
"Statistics do show that..." Weasel words.
"...the statistics also show that..." More weasel words.


As Bobad has actually produced those statistics, he is reminding you of facts, not using "weasel words."
Look it up Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Mar 17 - 05:15 AM

Jim,

"As usual Jim, you give up trying to make a case,"
I've made a case Keith - you are now reduced to dishonesty
You deny the facts and have resorted with stupid stonewalling


IF YOU ARE NOT LYING ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID, QUOTE ME!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:32 PM

So, facts and inconvenient truths have got the ideologues on the run now. It must be a total bummer when you realize you've been backing the wrong horse all this time. But, hey, it's never too late to admit you're wrong and get back on the right track. Go for it Shaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:56 PM

Nothing inconvenient about knowing the bloke's nationality. Why would there be? The guy who killed his older brother was not a Palestinian. Should we mention that fact every time? The guy who killed Abe - not a Palestinian. The blokes who killed 50 people in London in July 2005 - not Palestinians. The guys who shoot up high schools in America - not Palestinians. The Hungerford and Dunblane killers - not Palestinians. Loads of people who kill other people are not Palestinians. A few are Palestinians, admittedly. John Hinckley Jr, not a Palestinian. Turkish guy who shot the Pope - dodgy one, this - not a Palestinian. Guy who shot Lennon - not a Palestinian. Bali bombers - not Palestinians. So, the question remains: why did you insert "Palestinian" into that sentence? What is that word intended to convey? If nothing, why did you use it? Answer the question! Careful now! 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:31 PM

Any idea why you felt the need to insert "Palestinian" into that sentence?

Another inconvenient truth that upsets your prejudiced world view - good, I'll keep them coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:07 PM

Anyway, enough of this entertainment. I must to bed. I have a hole to fill in the morning. In my gravel drive, yer dirty-minded buggers! Duh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 09:02 PM

Er, you didn't give us any statistics! All you said was that " statistics show that..." etc.! So how would I know whether I hate them or not?! Give us the statistics, I'll check 'em out (which is what you're afraid of, of course), then I'll tell you whether I love them or hate them! It's past your bedtime, fella! Try to get someone to read your bedtime book to you, The Adventures Of Spot The Dog perhaps. Oh, hang on - you probably won't be able to follow the plot...


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:49 PM

Hate those statistics do you Shaw? It's because they show you to be full of shit and your ideology to be as phony as you are. Unmasked for the lying hypocrite you are. 😂😂😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:47 PM

"Robert F. Kennedy, April 5, 1968 murdered by the Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan for his vocal support for Israel."

Any idea why you felt the need to insert "Palestinian" into that sentence? It may strike you as odd, but a very large number of non-Palestinians also dislike politicians in the US who express vocal support for Israel. Would you like us to think that Palestinians are all bloodthirsty murderers at worst or supporters of Sirhan at best? You must have had your reason...

Careful now! 😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:26 PM

Phil Ochs would shit on your silly head. You don't deserve to breathe the same air. And I'll tell you about my flowers and the hole in my drive and my grub until the cows come home at times of my choosing. In the meantime, you used weasel words in place of debate. Bang to rights. You seem to think that I'll let that pass if you spout enough obfuscating shit in the meantime. But I won't. Ask Teribus. I have this ability to focus and get the bit between my teeth. You tried to bullshit us with weasel words about what "statistics show." Well we are not that stupid. Yes, "WE!"

Actually, since you mention it, I didn't quite get the hole filled as I met with complications that I won't bore you with, but I need to access a bit of hardcore before I can add the gravel topping. I possess the right materials and am halfway there. All this digging is making my muscles big. That is not intended as a threat. And I'm in a bad mood because I had to ditch my pasta e fagioli tonight due to a batch of borlotti beans that wouldn't soften even after two hours' boiling. Bastards. Bloody Waitrose too. I should have resorted to tinned but it was too late by the time I decided to ditch the project. Had to resort to a jar of pistachio pesto stirred into short pasta with added basil and Parmesan. Bloody good it was, but I hate culinary defeat. More on that later, in the words of Kirsty Wark. As for the flowers, I'll update you tomorrow, my little petal. 😆


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 08:19 PM

"When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies, to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered."

-Robert F. Kennedy, April 5, 1968 murdered by the Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan for his vocal support for Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 07:53 PM

Even though you can't expect to defeat the absurdity of the world, you must make that attempt. That's morality, that's religion. That's art. That's life.

- Phil Ochs


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 07:08 PM

That's a pretty silly and immature response,

Right Shaw, tell us some more about your flowers, snobby foodism, and the holes in your gravel drive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 07:03 PM

Greg, according to your friend Dave, the most anti-Muslim hate crimes being committed today are by Muslims in the Middle East. I would suggest that you have chosen the wrong battlefield in your championing of Islamophobia and instead are practicing knee-jerk whataboutery to the overwhelming prevalence of anti-Semitism in the world today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:45 PM

That's a pretty silly and immature response, boobs. You were using weasel words. Bang to rights. Man up and deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:26 PM

fortunately for [Muslims] the statistics also show that these represent but a fraction of all hate crimes

I'm sure that comforts the dead victims' families no end, Boo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 06:22 PM

Sorry for your butthurt Shaw, I know it's not easy to accept when your ideology gets destroyed by facts but put your man panties on and man up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 05:34 PM

"Statistics do show that..." Weasel words.

"...the statistics also show that..." More weasel words.

Before you bite back I suggest you look up "weasel words" on wiki.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:30 PM

Judging from the lie in the first few words of the diatribe posted: Since 2007, Israel has laid siege to the Gaza Strip, we can rest assured that the entire piece is nothing but the usual anti-Semitic propaganda and anti-Israel hate speech that is Carroll's stock-in-trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:18 PM

"As usual Jim, you give up trying to make a case,"
I've made a case Keith - you are now reduced to dishonesty
You deny the facts and have resorted with stupid stonewalling
I hav long stopped posting for your benefit Keith - you are what you are and as far as I am concerned, the oly thing to do is allow you to underline what you are yourself.
"You might as well hoist a white flag."
You really can't get anywhere wityh someone who adopts a "win at all costs" attitude to debate.
Wo else believes your argument here - I'm sure even Bobad wouldn't lower himself to taking up your stupid argument
Teribus has had the sense to keep away
Aker - well - Ake is like Billy Connolly's policeman = you only have to ask him a question to confuse him.
You are an extremist and in order to win something you have lied and disitoted more than has ever happened on this forum
You have come a long way since you were reprimanded for posting under a fake name
A sad, individual
Jim Carroll

I realise that the opinions od decent working people are not your thing, but this is the call for BDS by the Communication workers here support going out in Ireland at present - perhaps they were "brainwashed to hate Israel as you claimed Irish children were the British

Welcome / Activists / Campaigns / Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions for Israel
Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions for Israel

Please note that the CWU's support for the Palestinian-led international Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement is not an "Anti-Israel" or "Anti-Semitic" position; it is an answer to Palestinian civil society's call for solidarity. Furthermore, our condemnation of Israel's military actions within Gaza does not constitute, in any way, support for any Palestinian political or military faction.
The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet; the 360km sq. enclave is home to approximately 1.8 million Palestinians. Its borders are closed on all sides, controlled mostly by Israel, excluding a small border in the south which is controlled by Egypt. Israel also controls Gaza's airspace and territorial waters, leaving no way out for this besieged people, whether in times of incredible violence or in times of relative calm.

1. WHAT ARE THE ISSUES?

The Siege of Gaza (Israeli Blockade)
Since 2007, Israel has laid siege to the Gaza Strip, blockading the enclave by land, sea and air. The Gaza Strip is now essentially an 'open air prison', with the movement of people and goods severely restricted by the Israeli military. These restrictions are so tight that musical instruments, crayons, canned fruit and fresh meat are among the items banned from entering. This blockade has led to severe hardship and poverty; a situation amounting to collective punishment and which is now considered to be a humanitarian disaster. Richard Falk, the UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories said: "Such a massive form of collective punishment is a crime against humanity, as well as a gross violation of the prohibition on collective punishment in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention."

Home Demolitions
Since 1967, Israel has demolished more than 38,000 Palestinian homes, aimed at collectively punishing Palestinians or making way for illegal Israeli settlements. This practice has continuously been condemned by the United Nations, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.

Illegal Settlements
Since 1967, Israel has continued to build illegal settlements in Palestinian territories it occupies, despite constant condemnation by the United Nations, including the United States, Israel's main supporter. Israelis are encouraged, through generous state compensation schemes, to settle in these colonies. The aim of the Israeli state is to increasingly colonise the West Bank thus making a viable Palestinian state impossible. These settlements are linked up by segregated roads, which Palestinians are forbidden from using.

Separation Wall
In April 2002, Israel began constructing an enormous wall around the occupied West Bank, ostensibly to prevent potential suicide bombers entering Israel. As a result, more than 10% of the West Bank has been annexed, with families and neighbourhoods divided by the concrete barrier. Widely known as the 'Apartheid Wall', the structure stands 8 metres (25ft) high and will span more than 700km once completed. In 2004, the International Court of Justice (Advisory Opinion 131) found the wall to be illegal because it vastly encroached upon Palestinian land and recommended Israel dismantle it. Despite the finding, Israel has refused to comply. The Red Cross, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have also spoken out against the wall.

War Crimes
Israel's war crimes have been widely documented by human rights monitors, civil society organisations within Palestine, Israel and the wider international community, and the United Nations. For example, in 2009 an UN-backed mission of inquiry found that Israel committed "serious war crimes and breaches of humanitarian law, which may amount to crimes against humanity" (Source: Goldstone Report, 2009). Yet Israel is granted impunity as the United States, its closest ally and largest military aid provider, shields it from any decisive action for such crimes and the EU continues trade, research and civil cooperation projects.


                                                                                                            

2. WHY IS THIS APARTHEID?

The 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court defines apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them". The acts which fall within the domain of apartheid include the following: (1) murder; (2) torture; (3) inhuman treatment and arbitrary arrest of members of a racial group; (4) deliberate imposition on a racial group of living conditions calculated to cause it physical destruction; (5) legislative measures that discriminate in the political, social, economic and cultural fields; (6) measures that divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate residential areas for racial groups; (7) the prohibition of interracial marriages; and (8) the persecution of persons opposed to apartheid (Source: Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, Prof. John Dugard).

The acts prescribed to the crime of apartheid read like a catalogue of Israeli practices and policies in Gaza and the occupied West Bank, to wit:

(1) Murder

8,900+ Palestinians killed by Israeli military since 2000 (vast majority were civilians);

(2) Torture

At least 72 Palestinians tortured to death in Israeli prisons since 1967;

(3) Arbitrary Arrest

Israel allows for the arbitrary detention of any Palestinian civilian for up to 6 months without trial and detention orders can be extended indefinitely for additional 6-month periods. In practice, however, many have been detained for much longer periods, some up to or over 7 years. There are now roughly 6,000 Palestinians – including at least 200 children, 17 women and 11 elected Palestinian officials – being held in Israeli prisons or detention centres;

(4) Physical Destruction

The Israeli military made precise calculations of the daily calorie needs of Palestinians in 2008 and restricted the type and amount of food allowed to enter Gaza as a form of collective punishment. This action was taken after Hamas won elections and went on to take control of Gaza in 2007, with Israel subsequently deeming the region a 'hostile territory';

(5) Discrimination

The call to recognise Israel as a 'Jewish State' entrenches the policy of preserving institutionalised Jewish privilege in the majority of the Palestine-Israel region, through ethnic separation and exclusion; Israel operates separate legal systems for Palestinians and Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories and within Israel, Palestinian citizens face a raft of legal discrimination;

(6) Separate Residential Areas

Illegal Jewish settlements – connected by segregated roads – in the occupied West Bank have more than doubled since 2000, exceeding 500,000 settlers living on land beyond the pre-1967 borders. This is in contravention of numerous UN Security Council resolutions deeming these settlements illegal and demanding a halt to construction;

(7) Interracial Marriage

There is no civil marriage in Israel, marriages are only allowed on a confessional basis meaning that without conversion people of different religions cannot marry;

(8) Persecution

The persecution of the Palestinian people has been ongoing since 1947. What was recently witnessed in Gaza was only the latest in a long line of Israeli crimes perpetrated against the Palestinian people.

[Top]

                                                                                                            

3. MYTHBUSTER

(1) Israel does not occupy the Gaza Strip

14% of Gaza's total land and at least 48% of total arable land are taken up by Israel-imposed buffer zones. While 85% of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords is taken up by such buffer zones, reducing fishing areas from twenty nautical miles to three (Source: Boston Globe). Furthermore, Israel controls the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, despite withdrawing its ground forces and settlements from the enclave in 2005 (Source: Human Rights Watch).

(2) Hamas doesn't want a ceasefire but Israel does

A Hamas spokesperson said the group wants the "aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations". The spokesperson went on to say: "we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme" (Source: Al Jazeera). Hamas proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, the day after an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire, which had been accepted by Israel but rejected by Hamas (Source: Jerusalem Post, emphasis added). It was also reported that Israel's security cabinet rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry "as it stands" (Source: BBC).

(3) Israel doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian newspaper reported that a second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, with those firing apparently adjusting their aim to target fleeing survivors. Journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: "They are only children" – regarding the murder of four Palestinian boys playing on the beach in July 2014 (Source: The Guardian). The tactics used by the Israeli military in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. A UN Fact Finding Mission concluded from a review of the facts on the ground that it appears to have been precisely what was put into practice (Source: UN Fact Finding Mission on Gaza Conflict, 2009).

(4) Israel is not guilty of war crimes

The Israeli military may have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians – such as young boys and civilian structures, including a hospital – laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes (Source: Human Rights Watch). Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws-of-war (Source: Amnesty International).

(5) Hamas uses civilians as 'human shields'

"I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields" (Source: Jeremy Bowen, BBC). It was reported by The Guardian newspaper that it has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay (Source: The Guardian). In 2013 a United Nations human rights body accused the Israeli military of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields (Source: Reuters).

(6) Hamas constantly fires rockets into Israel

The Times of Israel reported that Hamas launched a series of rockets into Israel, the first time in years the group had directly challenged the Israeli state. The Israeli security forces assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier, killing one person and injuring three. Hamas had not fired any rockets into Israel since 'Operation Pillar of Defense' ended in November 2012 (Source: Times of Israel, emphasis added).

(7) Hamas kidnapped and killed three Israeli teenagers to provoke Israel

It was reported that the Israeli government knew from the beginning that the three Israeli teenagers were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers, from a Hamas-linked Hebron family, acted without the knowledge of Hamas leadership (Source: Jewish Daily Forward).

(8) Israel's blockade is not to blame for the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

Israel confirmed to US Embassy officials on multiple occasions that it intends to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis. Israeli officials have confirmed on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge (Source: US State Department).

(9) The Israeli government wants a two-state solution

Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, made explicitly clear that he could never countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated: "I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan" (Source: Times of Israel).

[Top]

                                                                                                            

4. THE BDS MOVEMENT: BOYCOTT, DIVESTMENT, SANCTIONS

On the 9th July 2005, 170 Palestinian civil society organisations, including trade unions, refugee rights associations, charitable organisations, academics and cultural groups, called for an international movement to impose boycotts, divestment and sanctions on the state of Israel. This nonviolent tactic was inspired by a similar boycott campaign that was used against Apartheid South Africa to isolate the then white supremacist government. Similarly, this boycott campaign is aimed at forcing Israel to guarantee Palestinians their inalienable human rights.

The key demands of the BDS Movement are for Israel to:

(1) End its occupation and colonisation of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantle the Wall

(2) Recognise the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality

(3) Respect, protect and promote the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194

The BDS Movement has been growing rapidly in recent years, with a number of high-profile individuals lending their support, including Pink Floyd's Roger Waters, renowned scientist Stephen Hawking and Ireland's own Damien Dempsey. In 2009, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions reaffirmed its support for the BDS campaign in response to ongoing Israeli human rights violations.

PUT MY NAME DOWN BROTHER
WHERE DO I SIGN


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 04:04 PM

Unfortunately in Israeli (and lately USA) political discourse there is a great deal of Islamophobia.

Statistics do show that Muslims are victims of Islamophobic hate crimes, fortunately for them the statistics also show that these represent but a fraction of all hate crimes directed against people because of their religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:48 PM

There are some people around here with big balls and nothing else!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:17 PM

We'll have less of that exposing if you don't mind. There was enough trouble calming the old ladies in Blackpool down after the incident on the tower. Luckily they were the same ones that were at the bingo game with missing balls and photocopied cards. They forgot all about missing balls after that sight...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 03:04 PM

As usual Jim, you give up trying to make a case, and start making up lies about me personally instead.
You do it every time!
You might as well hoist a white flag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:37 PM

Jim,
You have the evidence of the massive series of human rights abuses carried out by the Israelis and you have h
ve denied every single one without fail


I have denied none. I just exposed the lack of evidence for any of them.

I hope you enjoy your inhumanity as much as I have enjoyed exposing it.


You are yet to expose any such thing. How could you? It is just another of your lies.
If you are not lying, quote one single inhumane post.
Just one will do. Make it the very worst one.
Good luck with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:09 PM

Keith - you are truely one of the most evilly dishonest people I have ever come across
You have the evidence of the massive series of human rights abuses carried out by the Israelis and you have h
ve denied every single one without fail
I hope you enjoy your inhumanity as much as I have enjoyed exposing it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 02:00 PM

Unfortunately in Arabic political discourse there is a great deal of anti-Semitism.

Unfortunately in Israeli (and lately USA) political discourse there is a great deal of Islamophobia.

Moving right along.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 11:34 AM

"My lovely horse" from father Ted would work :-)

'ere. you know I was finishing off reading 'Wyrd Sisters' yesterday? Well, I did and I had fogotten how significant it could be to some of these 'discussions' (Not quotes in an ake sort of way - Just because I am not at all sure they are discussions). The premise in part is that words have a magic all of their own. They can change things for better or worse and in the book someone tries to perform a play to show the witches in a bad light. The plot fails of course and the witches and common sense win through. Shame it doesn't happen like that here :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:55 AM

Blimey, Fields of Athenry is such a dirge. He should have stopped after two verses. If not Delaney's Donkey, Dave, how about Saddle The Pony? That would keep the going-upmarket animal theme alive, goat to donkey to pony! Is there a tune name with "thoroughbred" in it? But don't even THINK about "Ride On." Aargh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 17 - 10:45 AM

Im not a "fan" of Al Jazeera. I treat all news outlets with the same degree of scepticism, as I've said here several times. Your piece from the Jewish News Online shows the very worst traits of the kind of tabloidism that I always rail against: it poses as a news item, yet it is full of opinion and polemic. Utterly dishonest and dishonourable journalism. Even the Daily Mail manages to be more subtle than that. It's all very well criticising al Jazeera when that's the sort of thing you come up with in response!


That bloody hole in my drive is staring sullenly at me...


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