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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Jim Carroll 08 Feb 17 - 03:44 PM
Greg F. 08 Feb 17 - 03:42 PM
bobad 08 Feb 17 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 17 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 17 - 03:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 17 - 03:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 01:43 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 17 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 17 - 11:24 AM
Raggytash 08 Feb 17 - 11:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 10:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 17 - 10:50 AM
Raggytash 08 Feb 17 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 10:42 AM
Raggytash 08 Feb 17 - 10:25 AM
Raggytash 08 Feb 17 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Feb 17 - 10:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 10:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Feb 17 - 10:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 09:57 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 17 - 05:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Feb 17 - 04:13 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 07:52 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 07:41 PM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 07:33 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 07:28 PM
bobad 07 Feb 17 - 06:57 PM
Greg F. 07 Feb 17 - 06:14 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 05:18 PM
akenaton 07 Feb 17 - 05:00 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 04:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 03:55 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 02:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 02:39 PM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 01:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 12:36 PM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 12:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 12:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 12:16 PM
Teribus 07 Feb 17 - 12:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 12:10 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 12:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 11:37 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:44 PM

Arabs always lie don't they Bobad?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:42 PM

There's that midge again, gol-dang it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:40 PM

Al Jazeera uncovers the "Israeli" plot to undermine the Labour party with accusations of anti-Semitism:

The Lobby


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:31 PM

Large number of ordinary Jewish Labour Party Members - "large member" doesn't bear thinking about!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:27 PM

"You ducked the question and refused to answer."
I've answered it four times - stop telling lies
"When they report anti-Semitism in their Party are they lying?"
Some are - as I have said, the ones who are attempting to remove Corbyn by any method.
I have no doubt that some have lied - it has been proved beyond a doubt that foremost among those who have made claims are connected directly with Israel and have expressed their opposition to B.D.S.
Whether they are lying or whether they accept the Israeli line that opposition to Israeli policy is immaterial really - both end up in the same place - a distortion of the term "antisemitic".
Israel is mentioned 42 times in Parliamentary report on antisemitism - criticism of Israel is not antisemitic - on the contrary, to suggest it is is antisemitic by definition.   
"I know. Why did you ask for it all over again?"
I didn't ask you to rais Saiq Khan again, which was what I was referring to - I covered that particular situation months ago yet you are still raising it as if it's a new piece of evidence.
You have accused the Jewish members of Parliament of dishonesty - you said they refused to describe the antisemitism because they put the interests of the party first - how ******* dishonest if that?
Personally, I believe that is just a sign of your own antisemitism.
I have no doubt whatever that some members of the Labour Party accept the Israeli line that criticism of Israel is antisemitic - not dishonest, just agenda driven politicking.
This argument of your is pointless Keith.
You have been given acess to a long article by a large member of ordinary Jewish Labour Party Members saying that there is no problem of antisemitism and that the whole thing has been conjured up by supporters of the Israeli regime and right wing opponents of Corbyn ARE THEY ALL LYING?
You have been given statements by several life-long Jewish activists in the Labour Party saying exactly the same thing ARE THEY LYING?
The suggestion that the propaganda campaign which is spending billions attempting to offset B.D.S. manufactured the charges against Labour, first appeared publicly in a long article carried by Haaretz WERE THEY LYING?
Jewish academics and activists throughout the world have made exactly the same suggestion ARE THEY ALL LYING?
There is once certain way to find out who is lying and who is telling the truth QUALIFY AND QUANTIFY YOUR CLAIM OF A PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE MADE YOUR CASE - UNTIL YOU DO, YOU ARE MAKING AN IDIOT OF YOURSELF - BRITISH LAW CLEARLY STATES THAT A PERSON IS INNOCENT UNTIL THEY ARE PROVED GUILTY - ACCUSATIONS ARE NOT PROOF
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 03:09 PM

No one has ever argued that there is no antisemitism in the Labour party. Just that it is no worse than anywhere else and a damn sight less than in some parties. Saying that people are denying there is any at all is classic straw man.

Jim, Raggy, Steve. Have you ever denied that there is any antisemitism? I am pretty sure you have not and I certainly haven't.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 01:47 PM

Jim,
You have exactly what I say about politicians and the reasons they do what they do

No we have not.
You ducked the question and refused to answer.

I will ask you again.
When they report anti-Semitism in their Party are they lying?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 01:43 PM

Rag,
I am saying they have only offered opinion.

No. They are reporting their experiences, not offering opinions.

Jim,
We really have been here over and over again

I know. Why did you ask for it all over again?

you will never convict anybody of anything unless you specify what you are accusing them of

I am not convicting anyone of anything.
I am just reporting that Labour has a problem with anti-Semistism according to Labour itself.

If "The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse" then you make yourself ridiculous by denying there were any.

Note Rag, they are stating facts not offering opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:28 AM

"or lying as Jim does?"
Don't you dare take what I am saying out of context again, you despicably dishonest wretch
You have exactly what I say about politicians and the reasons they do what they do
I am saying that you are deliberately taking what these people say and taking it out of context - you have always adopted the same tactic when you are in a corner - it has become part of your standard dishonesty
Now ******* stop it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:24 AM

For Christ's sake Keith - when will you get it into your head that you will never convict anybody of anything unless you specify what you are accusing them of
Doesn't it occur to you as strange that you, nor anybody else is totally incapable of describing the antisemitism that is supposed to be taking place or give a figure to it?
Absolute insanity, by anybody's reckoning.
We really have been here over and over again
Sadiq Khan made his remards at the time of the mayoral election
He believed Corbyn to be a barrier to his winning and he is an opponent of his policy - of course he is goint to use an tactic to win votes at such a time
He does not specify either the type of antisemitism he is referring to nor does he give numbers - he simply refers to its existence - NOBODY ARGUES THAT THERE ARE NO ANTISEMITES IN THE LABOUR PARTY _ OF COURSE THERE ***** ARE
"Badge of shame is a bit of a soundbite with Khan - he used the term to condemn the that the fact that London only took 34 refugees is "London's Badge of Shame", but I very much doubt if he is your hero on that one, knowing your attitude to Muslims.
You have lied, you have twisted what people have said, you have repeated yourself over and over again BUT UNTIL YOU PUT A FACE AND A NUMBER TO THE ANTISEMITISM YOU ARE OBSESSIVELY ACCUSING LABOUR OF HAVING YOU HAVE NO CASE - NOT A SHRED OF ONE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 11:05 AM

No professor, I am not saying they are wrong. I do not have the information to do that.

I am saying they have only offered opinion.

The reasons for their opinions could vary from a dislike for Corbyn to their having a bit on the side with May.

I do not know .......... and more to the point neither do you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:55 AM

Rag, the Queen of Sheba is not a high ranking Labour insider.
Are you claimimg that Khan, the NEC and all the others are wrong, as Steve does, or lying as Jim does?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:50 AM

I still do not know if it is any worse in the Labour party than elsewhere. No one can seem to or is willing to put a figure on this 'serious problem'. To quote from the survey I linked before

It also found that one in four (25%) Britons believed that Jews chase money more than other British people, a figure which rose to 39% of those participants who identified themselves as Ukip voters.

What is the percentage of Labour voters in this scenario. Is worse than 39% or worse than 25%? Unless the people making the claim that the antisemitism is worse in the Labour party than elsewhere then their case is not proven.

Seemples.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:49 AM

You could cite the Queen of Sheba, without evidence it is meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:42 AM

I am not posting random opinions Rag.
These are the statements of well placed, high ranking Labour officials on their own experience of Labour anti-Semitism.

Reliable witnesses. Their statements would be considered hard evidence in any court, and put together any intelligent jury would accept them as proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Do you imagine yourself better informed than Sadiq Khan and Labour's National Executive Committee Rag?
Really?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:25 AM

Steve, I first came across the bar in 1995. Mary Murphy was the landlady then. I believe she is the daughter of Nora, after whom the bar in still named.

We had a tremendous day there that year and when I got back to the UK I dropped her a line to say Thank-You. That was at Easter. That Christmas, and every Christmas since, I have had a card from her. We've visited on numerous occasions in the intervening years and always enjoyed wonderful hospitality and it must be the best location of any bar I have ever been in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:21 AM

Instead of offering peoples opinions professor, provide some evidence.

Anyone can make a claim about anything, but to substantiate that claim evidence is needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM

And he's wrong.

You really believe you know more about Labour's problem than Khan does!

You must like being laughed at too Steve.
Ha ha ha.
There you go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:14 AM

He's not the mayoral candidate. He's the mayor. And he's wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:13 AM

What the NEC said,
"The NEC are appalled by recent cases of anti-Semitic abuse. Anti-Semitism has no place in the Labour Party and is contrary to everything we stand for."

"at anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. The entire NEC recognises the seriousness of this issue "

That is the leadership, including Corbyn Jim.
Obviously you think you know much more than they do!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:07 AM

What Sadiq Khan said.
Do you think he is lying to damage his own Party and help the Government Of Israel Jim?
Do you like being laughed at?


Labour's leadership does not understand anti-Semitism, the party's London mayoral candidate has said as he criticised Jeremy Corbyn for not stopping "unacceptable" racism against Jews from some members.  
Sadiq Khan said recent high-profile incidents of anti-Semitism in Labour should be a "badge of shame" for the party and called for members of the ruling body to be retrained in what constitutes discrimination.
The Tooting MP also directly challenged his leader to take a "tougher stance" on the issue, saying he was "embarrassed" by the party's record and demanding it was time not just to "talk the talk" but "walk the walk"


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 10:05 AM

It's a much nicer atmosphere in the Yorkshire Dales, Jim. Or Whitby. Or Cornwall. Or Ireland or course :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 09:57 AM

there is no evidence because the Jews prefer to support their party rather than their people

No Jim. They experienced anti-Semitism and reported it to the Party to deal with.
All those women MPs who complained about Labour misogyny did the same, as did the gay MP who complained of homophobia.

Do you also claim that gays and feminists " prefer to support their party rather than their people ?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 05:10 AM

Put up the evidence of the accusations Keith - that'll do nicely
Until you do, you have no case
You have now reached the satage of multiple lying
you put up evidence - there is no evidence because the Jews prefer to support their party rather than their people - now back to your reinvention of what people are supposed to have said.
You really are an obsessive right wing hate monger
Know any good jokes?
If not, you really have well and truly shat in your own nest here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 17 - 04:13 AM

Jim,
"but there is no doubt that Labour has a serious problem because all those people say so."
No they don't - you made that up as well


I can put all the quotes up again Jim, but I am sure everyone else remembers them.

You are still anti semitically accusing the Jews of a pact of silence

Ha ha! So silent that no-one knows about Labour's anti-Semitism! Ha ha!


Anybody who thinks they can accuse somebody of something without specifying what is ******* insane


When all those people say that Labour has a serious problem with anti-Semitism, anybody who thinks they are all lying to damage their own Party is ******* insane!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:52 PM

Think we may have mentioned that bar before, Raggytash. We went there most nights during that two weeks. It was always packed out and none of the old boys bothered pouring their Guinness into glasses, shades of trendy modern types with their bottles of horse-piss lager. As the evening went on all the space under the wooden benches became taken up with dead men. One night we were treated to a girl of about ten playing the most devastatingly good tin whistle I've ever heard. Mrs Steve and I got involved in a bit of cloak and dagger, spiriting a huge salmon the provenance of which we didn't care to enquire about, down to the pub. Our reward was a hunk of the finest salmon I've ever eaten. Not from a fish farm, that one! The name Nora rings a bell. It was 1977 - does that fit time-wise? Anyway, Nellie was her sister, the lady who looked after us for a fortnight. Happy days!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:41 PM

Sorry, Jim. He's no joke for sure. Amazing how someone like him who crows about "remoaners" as much as he does moans like a banshee when we are only doing such innocent things as telling gags, discussing the old days, reminiscing about our golden pasts, chatting about the nice places we know and cataloguing wild flowers. Disappointing coming from a man who does equally innocent things such as praising bigots like Trump and Farage, militating against equality and talking about horrendous leftie women. Remind me never to become a socialist just like him, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:33 PM

Nora Murphy's Bar at Brandon is simply the most exquisite bar I have ever had the good fortune to drink in.

Mary Murphy was the forth generation of the family to run the bar, she was an absolute delight. So kind, so generous, a wonderful hostess. I cannot sing her praises highly enough.

The location of the bar is beautiful, wonderfully beautiful.

As one of our party said as he stood in the doorway, gazing at the amazing vista "take me God I'm ready"

Nothing in all in my 22 intervening years of drinking has come anywhere close.

Her nephew now runs the bar, I suspect it will not have changed one iota.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:28 PM

"Careful, Jim. You've made a new friend."
Go wash your mouth out
If you have anything to add to the hang-em-high non-response of these weirdos, feel free - they really are getting boring.
Meanwhile, back at the serious business:
A young black lad in Manchester was kicking a ball up against a wall when a scout for Man City spotted him.
He watched for ten minutes as the lad's skill became apparent - kicking the ball up over his head, back-heeling it, passing from heel to knee and back without hesitation.... absolutely superb.
After the display, the scout approached the lad and said, "how would you like to test for City?"
"**** off", said the lad - it's hard enough being black in this part of the world".
Or
A sweet little girl lived with her single-parent mother next to a site where they were building new houses.
Every morning she would go out and watch the men working through the wire around the site, till one day one of the men spotted her and asked her if she would like to sit down and watch.
They brought her on to the site, found her an old chair to sit on and the next day they had a whip-round and presented her with a little pink boiler-suit, a pink hard-hat and a little pink lunch-box with neatly cut cheese sandwiches and a bottle of pink lemonade inside.
At the end of the week they handed her a little pink envelope with her wages in it.
She ran home to her mother and handed her the money, and her mother said, "that's very nice dear; are you working next week?"
"It depends whether those ****** at the builders merchants deliver the blocks in time", was the reply.
G'night all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:57 PM

......who needs enemas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:14 PM

With friends like that......


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:18 PM

What rules?

Careful, Jim. You've made a new friend...😂


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:00 PM

For all his faults, at least Jim sticks to the subject and the rules of the forum......the rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves.


If you want to chatter to one another do it on a thread set up for the purpose......what you are doing is forum abuse and moderation should take note.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:05 PM

Anybody who thinks they can accuse somebody of something without specifying what is ******* insane
End of story
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 03:55 PM

What did St Patrick say as he drove the snakes out of Ireland?

"Are you alright back there lads?"

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 03:15 PM

In 1977 we spent two lovely weeks staying at Nellie O'Neill's B&B at Cross Cloghane. We got to know her sister too, who ran Murphy's pub four miles down the road at Brandon. Nellie's lovely granddaughter Ellen served us breakfast. If we ate everything we got even more next morning. It even got to the pitch where we were getting chips on top of everything else! Saved on lunch...

That would be Conor Pass, Dave. It was a bit hairy on the day we first drove over it but I found the rare St Patrick's Cabbage up there. Not a cabbage at all, it's a saxifrage similar to the garden one called London Pride. We climbed Brandon Peak whilst there but it was a bit murky. 1977 wasn't the best summer for weather!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 02:56 PM

"Why do we need to? "
You've just said you have - are you admitted to having lied?
You chatge someone with something, you need to specify exactly what you are charging them with
What an incredibly stupid question - even for you
"but there is no doubt that Labour has a serious problem because all those people say so."
No they don't - you made that up as well
You are still anti semitically accusing the Jews of a pact of silence
You are a classic antisemite
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 02:49 PM

if Labour is guilty of the accusations made against it what form does that antisemitism take and why is nobody prepared to describe it?

Why do we need to? I do not even care, but there is no doubt that Labour has a serious problem because all those people say so.
Or do you believe they all lie against their Party like you believe the deputy Leader does?

You've given this excuse before Keith and followed it with your antisemitic suggestion that they did not describe that antisemitism publicly because of their love of the party

I am sure that they all love their Party.
When they experience anti-Semitism within that Party, or any other kind of discrimination or intolerance, the standard thing to do is report it to the Party and let them deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 02:39 PM

Do you know the story of Mac City's manager, Steve Coppell walking down the street carrying a television set?
He bumped into his mate, who asked him, " What's with the teleevision set"
He replied, " I got it for the team"
"That was a good swap", came the reply
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 01:40 PM

Being a United supporter would not have mattered Dave, I drink in a pub over there that is firmly Arsenal (for some reason)never had a problem.

I spent a great afternoon in Bantry a few years back watching Ireland V England at Rugby Union, not once did I feel even slightly intimidated.

I will be watching the Ireland V England game over there again this year, not a problem.

A bit strange then that some people find any talk of holidays and botany on this site intimidating really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 01:26 PM

I loved the Dingle peninsula when we were there. Only spent a shot time there but even the journey was magical. I am sure you will be able to name the places I forgot so I will not look them up. We were staying in Finuge, hometown of Sean McCarthy, just outside Listowel. I cannot recal the full journey but I know we stopped briefly in Tralee before crossing a high mountain pass to drop down to Dingle itself. The view across the bay to Blasket (?) was stunning. After a stop in Dingle we headed off and followed a more roundabout route to get back.

They had a Sean McCarthy festival while we were in Finuge and I got to meet his widow! Part of the festivities were in the village hall which was dry but had a pub across the road. The number of people nipping out for 5 or 10 minutes at a time was quite phenomenal :-) There were also a lot of Irish rebel songs and stories, none of which I felt were threatening at all but one evening when I was in a bar in Listowel the local brancj of the Chelsea fan club came in after losing to Man United. When one asked where I was from I said Bolton :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 01:02 PM

"They gave details to the party for them to deal with it."
You've given this excuse before Keith and followed it with your antisemitic suggestion that they did not describe that antisemitism publicly because of their love of the party
It is antisemitic to suggest that Jewish people would put the interests of a political organisation before that of their people
You said you had produced plenty of facts - you lied
Now you are back to your 'Jewish pact of silence' claim - make up your mind - which story are you going to stick with?.
Dig away - you'll get to Australia eventually
You don't know Labour has a serious problem - we only know Labour has treated the accusations seriously and held enquiries - a million miles from what is happening on the opposite bench in Parliament.
Put up your examples and nobody will be able to deny them - if they are substantiated.
You dishonest claimed you had already put them up - stop lying and put them up - that's what you would have to do in a court
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:36 PM

"I detailed the facts that support that belief."
ow you are doin a Keith - if Labour is guilty of the accusations made against it what form does that antisemitism take and why is nobody prepared to describe it?

Corbyn Leader? Fact
Smokescrewen
Corbyn regards Hamas and Hezbollah as friends and is on record as stating such. Fact
No, but even if it was, that does NO mean there is a problem of antisemitism within the Labour Party
Corbyn said he regarded Hezbolah "friends" (around the time Britain was describing Assad as an ally and was still propping up the Qaddafi regime with arms and political support)
He has since withdrawn that description, saying he regretted making itit   
Corbyn supports BDS Fact
Good on him - BDS is supported by all religius denominaqtions and shades of political thought - Jews and no Jews alike - throughout the world
Labour's NEC Commissioned an Inquiry into anti-Semitism in OULC. Fact
Baroness Royall stated that although not "institutionalised" anti-Semitism within the OULC did need to be addressed urgently and immediately. Fact
And it was - it is not an indication that there was a majort problem or in anyway more of a phenomenon in the Laboutr Party - just that what there was needed to be dealt with.
Last March, the Tory Party was accused of having a problem with islamophobia - as a response, they appointed a racist as foreign secretary.
Royall's Inquiry prompted Labour to commission a far wider reaching Inquiry under Shami Chakrabarti. Fact
See above
Labour's NEC fail to implement Baroness Royall's recommendations. Fact
The enquiries that were hald found there to be no significant problem - fact
All smoke and mirrors - totally meaningless.
We are still waiting for the British Muslim's demand for an enquiry to be responded to - that we should all live that long!!!
There will be no proven problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party until it is described and quantified - until such time, it will remain merely unsubstantiated accusations.
Jim Carroll

A Jewish view of Labour antisemitism
AS A JEWISH LABOUR MEMBER, I'M SICK OF ANTI-SEMITISM BEING USED AS A POLITICAL WEAPON AGAINST JEREMY CORBYN
Michael Segalov
For years now I've travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies. I've seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who wear swastikas as badges of honour. Where was your concern for my community then?
It's become an all too regular occurrence, waking up to headlines reporting that anti-Semitism in the Labour party is now an endemic problem, and that bad feeling against Jewish people in the party is on an upward trajectory.
As a Jewish Labour Party member, they are stories that should have me alarmed. I know from experience just how dangerous anti-Semitism can really be: vast swathes of my ancestors were lost to the murderous hands of the Nazis, and observant Jewish friends of mine have been harassed and attacked on British streets. I've read the slurs, faced the trolls, had neo-Nazis shout abuse in my face.
And yet it's not just anger against bigots that hits as I scan story after story, but frustration towards those trying to use an all too real threat facing my community for their own political gain. Since Corbyn's election as Labour leader, unsupportive MPs, campaigning groups and journalists have been desperate to paint him and the movement who support him as anti-Semitic fanatics, despite knowing it's really not the case.
I could tell you about my own experiences, how I've never experienced or witnessed anti-Semitism inside the party – but that's just what I've seen, non-Jewish defenders of my religion will claim. My experiences, and those of countless other Corbyn-supporting Jewish members who I've spoken to, aren't reflective of what's really going on, apparently.
Just a few months ago, I found myself sat in the Channel 4 News studio, tasked with discussing anti-Semitism under Corbyn. Sat opposite me was John Woodcock MP, desperate to tell me it's the "hard-left" who are "associated [with] Soviet Russia" with anti-Semitic views infiltrating the party who were responsible for stirring up hatred.
Now, we only need look at the most high-profile of cases to see that anti-Semitism is by no means a product of Corbyn's supporters. Naz Shah, MP for Bradford West, was rightly suspended for sharing anti-Semitic posts on Facebook, not a Corbynite but a backer of Yvette Cooper in the last leadership election. Ken Livingstone, similarly sanctioned for his remarks about Hitler, has been a party grandee for decades. An insurgent? I think not.
Woodcock pointed me towards "a rise in anti-Semitic incidents" within the party, without having a single statistic or figure to back it up. It's an answer I hear time and time again, and for those of us – Jewish or otherwise – committed to fighting anti-Semitism, enough is enough.
It's tiring and it's frustrating, but moreover it's frankly dangerous.
For years now I've travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies, and the counter-demonstrations that take place alongside. I've seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who profess hatred for Jews and our religion, who wear swastikas as badges of honour, who'll salute like a Nazi in front of your face. Where was your concern for my community then?
It's not just the distinct absence of those MPs in Labour who now claim to be at the forefront of the fight against anti-Jewish prejudice that's striking, but the presence of those they now claim to be British Jewry's biggest threat.
It's the left, and Corbyn's supporters, who've put their bodies on the line time and time again to protect us from these racist organisations.
That's why these cries of anti-Semitism make a mockery of a real and present danger. Corbyn's commitment to fighting discrimination and prejudice has been well documented for decades. His supporters are those who've stood alongside him. Accusing these people now of peddling prejudice is nothing but political point-scoring at its worst. It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head.
I'm not saying Labour members haven't experienced anti-Semitism inside the Labour Party, and of course, a progressive movement like Labour should hold itself to higher standards than other organisations. Those few who blindly label all incidents of anti-Semitism as anti-Corbyn slander and restrictions on critiquing Israel need to listen to the voices of victims and let conversations about Judaism and Israel be led by Jewish members: we are here and we know how to speak,
This isn't to say I don't value the concern, but I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Anti-Semitism is not a problem particular to Labour; using the words "Judaism" and "Israel" interchangeably is just as (if not more) common on the right as on the left.
Oppression, discrimination and Jewish identity are complex; the relationship between our religion and the state of Israel is constantly debated; disagreements will happen inside our community. Let us lead these discussions. Don't quickly take sides simply to advance your faction, angle or personal interests.
And if you're truly concerned about fighting racism and anti-Semitism, I look forward to seeing you stand alongside us in meetings and on the streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:25 PM

In May I'm taking a party of 10 on a week long tour of the Dingle peninsula. Another beautiful area.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:19 PM

Jim,
You said the Jewish victims of the antisemitism refused to give dtails so how can we possinly have had them

They gave details to the party for them to deal with it.

We know for a fact that Labour has a serious problem because of statements from numerous prominent people including Sadiq Khan, Tom Watson, the current and former leaders of Scottish Labour, and the "entire NEC" which includes Corbyn himself.

Why do yo persist in this Keith

Only because you persist in denying it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:16 PM

Why do you believe that?

Because nearly half of people in the UK display antisemitic leanings and it is nowhere near that in the Labour party. It is no so much that no other party has had to deal with it. It is that no other party has even looked yet. Do keep up Keith.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:13 PM

"I do not dispute any of your facts and there is no real need to embolden the word. None of them indicate that the Labour party have a bigger issue than anyone else though do they" - DtG

"None of them indicate that the Labour party have a bigger issue than anyone else" - You mean ignoring the FACT that all the facts you accept are ALL specific to the LABOUR PARTY.

Going back to your YouGov Survey article in the Guardian - what was the percentage given of Jews questioned who no longer felt safe in the UK? Jewish Students do not feel safe attending University Labour Club debates and meetings - WHY? Because they are generally open and Labour Youth and Students vote to support BDS as does the Party Leader. Intimidation, racism and misogyny at Constituency Labour Parties. And they all seem to be at ones where dissent is shown to the Leader - Coincidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:10 PM

Dave,
. I do not believe the problem is worse than any in any other group of people.

Why do you believe that?
No other party has had to deal with that issue. No other party has had all those complaints from within. You are in denial Dave.

senior people within the Labour party have admitted that there is a problem and that they are working towards addressing it. Do you think that is a bad thing?

No, but those people also say that Labour is not working towards addressing it. That is a bad thing.

We heard it from Labour Peer Baroness Royale just days ago, and she was appointed by Corbyn to lead an enquiry into it and produce a report which she says has been ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 12:07 PM

Er, look a little more closely, Dave. Corbyn, in front of a Home Affairs Select Committee, expressed regret for calling Hamas and Hezbollah friends, regretted his choice of words and giving the explanation that he was trying to be inclusive at the time, encouraging reconciliation. Issuing the "fact" Teribus-style is to intend to mislead by omission. If you leave it at the point where Corbyn called them friends and omitted the stuff I've just given you, you may be misled into thinking that that is still his opinion. Which it isn't. I think it's rather important, and far more honest, to give the full story. I know how inconvenient that can be when it flies in the face of a demonising agenda. Maybe I'll get back to the other stuff later. We had the most gorgeous rainbow here half an hour ago. Chicken and chips for tea!


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 11:37 AM

I did ask what you believe, Teribus and, to your credit, you gave a good measured answer. It is still just a belief though and does not measure up to the facts produced in the surveys I have linked.

No, I do not dispute any of your facts and there is no real need to embolden the word. None of them indicate that the Labour party have a bigger issue than anyone else though do they. In fact, they show that the Labour party are already addressing the issue while everyone else seems to have difficulty even acknowledging that antisemitism is a problem in general.

DtG


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