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BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 04:33 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 04:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 04:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 04:54 AM
Stu 07 Feb 17 - 04:59 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 05:07 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 05:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 05:33 AM
Stu 07 Feb 17 - 05:34 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 05:37 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 05:47 AM
akenaton 07 Feb 17 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 05:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 05:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 05:58 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 06:03 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 06:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 06:05 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 06:09 AM
akenaton 07 Feb 17 - 06:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Feb 17 - 06:22 AM
Raggytash 07 Feb 17 - 06:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 06:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 06:36 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 07:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 07:13 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 07:16 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 07:40 AM
bobad 07 Feb 17 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 08:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 08:31 AM
bobad 07 Feb 17 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 08:45 AM
Teribus 07 Feb 17 - 09:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 17 - 09:20 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Feb 17 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM
Teribus 07 Feb 17 - 10:18 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:33 AM

Jim,
Don't you realiuse how stupid it is to argue antisemitism with people who accuse the Jewish People for the Crimes of the Israeli regime?

It would be stupid Jim, but who are those people and where do they post?

Now Jim, are you going to duck this one too?
Can you identify one single "extremist right-wing claim" ?

If you can not you are making shit up and lying again.

Please prove me wrong and put up an example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:37 AM

Talking of favourite places, there is a road near Clifden on the Connemara that leads out across a bog. There are a myriad of Loughs that shine like jewels all across the vast plain and a range of mountains, the Twelve Bens, that flank one side of the it. The sea provides another boundary. It is utterly beautiful, peaceful and although I know little about Botany the plant life is very varied.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:41 AM

Dave,
The OP took one particular issue but there was no suggestion that it was the only Labour Party issue that was allowed!

By the same logic there was no suggestion that anything else was disallowed.


Yes there was.
The thread title limited the debate to discussion of the Labour Party.

Your little group clearly do not want to discuss that any more.
Fine. Stay away.
It is trolling to try to prevent discussion by those who are interested, using bullying and intimidation from a whole pack of you to discourage decent folk from discussing what they want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:54 AM

Jim,
These are not a "loaded questions."

Do you believe that Watson lies to harm his own party?

I am not asking if he ever lies at all, just whether he lies to damage his own party whose members elected him Deputy Leader.

And, if he does, does he do it for the Government of Israel.

We all know he has close ties with Israel's Labour Party, but not with its current Right Wing government which a Lefty like him reviles.
You will never hear him defend settlements.

So, Jim and Steve, do you really believe that he lies against his Party for the government of Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Stu
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 04:59 AM

Unbelievable. This whole fucking thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM

Well who would have thought that extolling the beauty of the Dales or Robin Hoods Bay or the Connemara would one day be considered bullying and intimidating.

What a strange world we live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM

Jim,
Theuy ghave no evidence of antisemitism in the Labour Party - end of story
If they had evidence they would have produced it long ago -


We did.
The evidence is that the leadership, the NEC, Sadiq Khan and many others within the Party acknowledge that it is true.
Many have been suspended for it, and at least one has admitted making anti-Semitic statements born of ignorance.

Why would they all lie. It harms the Party
Have you any evidence that they are all lying to harm the Party?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:07 AM

Rag,

Well who would have thought that extolling the beauty of the Dales or Robin Hoods Bay or the Connemara would one day be considered bullying and intimidating.


It would not be intimidating on a thread entitled "Places I Have Known."

Any subject used to prevent discussion of something else, with a whole pack of people demanding that the subject be changed, is intimidating, bullying behaviour.

I would welcome discussion of those places, but not for it to be used to close down an existing debate. There is plenty of room for more threads. You do not need this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:29 AM

I don't think I have demanded anything on this thread.

However if you point out one of my posts where I HAVE demanded anything I will, of course, apologise.

I don't think I have been bullying or intimidating on this thread.

However if you point out one of my posts where I HAVE been bullying or intimidating I will, of course, apologise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:33 AM

What is even stranger Raggy is the logic that says that a party that sets up an investigation into antisemitism and admits that antisemitism is a problem is the one that gets accused of being antisemitic. By that same token, as I suspect there has never been such an investigation by the BNP, then they must be less racist than the Labour party. Strange world indeed...

Still, let's get back top the sensible stuff. If you are coming to Ribblehead, email me. Chances are I will be walking on Saturday afternoon but if you are coming then I will let the others know. If you need accommodation I am sure we will find room in the bunk house but I think Christine may object to the smells and noises emanating from some bunks :-) The Station have rooms which I believe are quite good.

Cheers

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Stu
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:34 AM

Expect any thread discussion the Labour party will be hijacked by people flogging the same old dead horse, resulting in endless circular arguments. You're not open to persuasion, never going to agree so what's the sodding point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:37 AM

So True Stu, isn't it so much more beneficial to discuss the beauty of the Dales.

Something I would hope we could all agree on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:47 AM

That's the first time in my life I've ever bullied or intimidated anybody with wild flowers or Jurassic fossils, I must say. Just wait 'til I lay into you with a Victoria sponge, Keith. Lock up yer daughters!

I have a feeling that I drove on that Connemara road in 1977 when the missus and I spent a month trundling round the west of Ireland in our Morris Minor. Bloody roads -three punctures in four weeks! There's a little strand somewhere round there where bits of coral wash up. I filled a matchbox with some as a souvenir. Can't tell you the trouble that caused us back at the port. A half-hour grilling by the anti-terrorist lads who took a lot of persuading that it wasn't drugs or explosives or something. The buggers turned us upside down!

Took a little lump of tufa from Gordale Beck to show my chemistry teacher at school. He was a bit of a geology freak. He was delighted that he thought he was nurturing a future geological star. Alas, a year later he was threatening to chuck me out of 'O' level chemistry for homework failure-to-do. He even threw a piece of chalk at me once. Twat. I got a grade 2, by the way.

Dunno what I was saying that was opposite to your experiences, Jim. Complementary, more like, I should say, with similar sentiments. Not saying that discussion of this should be verboten. But I do get sorely pissed off with this pair of obsessives that have us going round in circles. Anyway, I've been studiously hijacking this for 24 hours now and have yet to receive even a small bollocking. Don't mind discussing issues with sensible, fair-minded people, of course. And that's going to get a fine response, I predict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:52 AM

Raggytash, what on earth are you playing at?
Keith is right, if you don't want to engage just leave the thread.

I don't expect Jim Dave or Steve to appreciate that, but you are above that sort of behaviour IMO and from our previous conversations.

I hade to leave the "Trumps enemies" thread after making my point, I registered my disapproval of what I considered a nasty post, if in metaphorical form... my post was almost immediately removed by a mod, but my point had been made .....end of story, I certainly would not attempt to wreck the thread because of the political views of one moderator.   A


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:53 AM

Who's not open to persuasion by the way, Stu? I've been persuaded to change my mind here on a number of topics. I tend to keep quiet about it in case some weak-minded twat calls me a snowflake or accuses me of making up shit, etc. 😉


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:55 AM

"It would be stupid Jim, but who are those people and where do they post?"
Anybody who accuses critics of israel as "Jew Haters" and "antisemites" are "these people" and they post here - you are among them
"Do you believe that Watson lies to harm his own party?"#You have what Watson is and has doem - you decide whether he is telling the truth - you have the evidence - where's yours?
"The evidence is that the leadership, the NEC, Sadiq Khan and many others within the Party acknowledge that it is true."
The evidence came yup with the fact that the accusations had no ground - you acknowledged it when you accused Corbyn of covering up the facts - without proof
How the **** can you have produced evidence when you say you don't know what king of antisemitism the Labour party is being accused of?
You even claimed that the Jewish members of Parliament refused to produce that evidence for the love of their party
Do not dig yourself into an even deeper ohole of stupidity
There is no evidence of a problem of antisemitism - none whatever.
THere are onlty accusations - accusations are not evidence, they are not proof and no civilised society would ever convict without those accusations being fully specified
Back to your padded cell Keith - you have lied and twisted enough.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:57 AM

Rag, you do not need to use this thread to discuss places of interest or anything else.
You and your pack of bullies has made it very difficult for those of us trying to discuss the thread subject.

Dave,
a party that sets up an investigation into antisemitism and admits that antisemitism is a problem is the one that gets accused of being antisemitic.

Dave, all the accusations came from within Labour, and also the accusations that the Party was not addressing the problem.
What has kept this thread going is Jim and Steve denying that Labour has a problem with it. At least you seem to be acknowledging that fact.
See if you can get through to the others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 05:58 AM

I don't really want to get involved with dog shit as we don't even have a dog, but when it appears outside our house I clean it up. It helps considerably if I think pleasant thoughts while doing it. Far better than what I would like to do to the owner.

Of course I suspect analogy is wasted on some.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:00 AM

Ake, People can discuss whatever they like. However this particular topic has been running for over 18 months on this and a previous thread with no end is sight.

The joy of walking up in the Dales or having a pint in Robin Hoods Bay or cycling the bog road between Clifden and Roundstone on the Connemara far exceeds any "joy" that has been found in the discussion of the "topic" so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:03 AM

Steve,

That's the first time in my life I've ever bullied or intimidated anybody with wild flowers or Jurassic fossils, I must say.


It is not the subject that is intimidating, it is your hijacking an existing debate.
With a whole pack of you doing it, many of you with a reputation for aggressive posting, then yes it is bullying and intimidating people who just want to continue discussing the Labour Party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:05 AM

I haven't got a pack of "bullies" professor. I like the other people on this thread are not a "gang" either.

No one is being bullied or intimidated as far as I am aware, or if they are, they must indeed be sensitive little souls if they are frightened of being told of the wonders of nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:05 AM

I and the others have always agreed that there must be an antisemitic element in the Labour party just as there is in any other walk of life. I know you have probably forgotten as it was more than 2 posts ago but I have already said, and Steve and Jim have agreed, that antisemitism is a problem in the Labour party but no more so than in any other walk of life. What is more the party are working at reducing it which is a damn sight more than can be said of others.

The other day I asked you a question and you skirted it. You have already said that you do not believe the Labour party itself is antisemitic as that is not in its manifesto. Do you therefore believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? I await your response. A simple yes or no will do.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:09 AM

That beach Steve is on the road between Clifden and Ballyconneely.

I have several bags of coral and shells that one day I will continue to make into jewellery. I must take my Dremel with me next time I go over which should be in March.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:11 AM

I agree Raggytash but surely the answer is to open a new thread on the beauties of the English countryside. I would be pleased to contribute as I am extremely fond of the wonderful views in my part of Scotland.
As I mentioned earlier the antics of some who obviously want the thread closed or derailed are an insult to the opening poster who's behaviour on forum is almost always impeccable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:15 AM

Lovely Facebook group here. We love the Yorkshire Dales. I think you need to join to post but you can look at the pictures without doing so. I have not posted any pictures yet but I did give a link to the Mr Fox song 'The Gypsy' which is set in the Yorkshire Dales. I think Bob Pegg lives in Whitby now but I am not sure. Do you know Raggy?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:15 AM

Jim,
Anybody who accuses critics of israel as "Jew Haters" and "antisemites" are "these people" and they post here - you are among them

No I am not!
I am not aware of anyone who does that.
Will you give an example?
I am still waiting for an example of "extremist Right-Wing claims" that you reported!

Withdraw one false statement before making another Jim!

you acknowledged it when you accused Corbyn of covering up the facts

I have never done that either!!!

How the **** can you have produced evidence when you say you don't know what king of antisemitism the Labour party is being accused of?

Because I have quoted numerous reliable witnesses from within Labour, including very senior officials, who report having seen it for themselves.
A reliable witness is regarded as strong evidence in any court, and a number of such witnesses would be regarded as proof beyond reasonable doubt by any intelligent jury.
Case proved Jim.

You even claimed that the Jewish members of Parliament refused to produce that evidence for the love of their party

No. I said they expected the Party to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:22 AM

Dave,
I have already said, and Steve and Jim have agreed, that antisemitism is a problem in the Labour party but no more so than in any other walk of life.

According to many within the Party, including senior figures and people who have suffered it, Labour has a particular problem which other major parties seem not to have.

You have already said that you do not believe the Labour party itself is antisemitic as that is not in its manifesto. Do you therefore believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?

Not just because it is not in the manifesto, silly.

As I have already explained, I do believe that Labour has a particular problem with anti-Semitism because so many senior Labour people say it does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:31 AM

Not heard about Bob Pegg moving to Whitby but there is a strong rumour that Rob Van Sante has bought a house here.

For many years Whitby has resembled an Old Folkies Care Home though.

I once had the idea of several of us buying a mansion to split into apartments with a communal area. The idea was that you had to be a folkie to buy an apartment, you would agree only to sell to another folkie and that a management fee could be used to provide welfare cover for those nearing their time.

I still think there is some mileage in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:33 AM

You have still not answered the question. Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? It really is a simple question.

As to Not just because it is not in the manifesto, silly

Here is the post I made and you responded to. Your words in bold.

The Labour party cannot be antisemitic. It is not in it's manifesto.

Exactly true. It has a serious problem with some of its members, but the party itself can not be said to be anti-Semitic and no-one has suggested it is.


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:36 AM

Now, back to the more serious business. Sounds a good idea to me Raggy. I remember Rob from years back. He appeared at Swinton Folk Club many a time and, when we were having fun with the local 'Journal' someone submitted a write up that included the phrase Rob's aunties van in the same paragraph as Rob van Sante. They didn't complain :-)

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 06:40 AM

"No I am not!"
You have accused me of antisemitism - yes you are
"I am not aware of anyone who does that."
Then you are more stupid than you appear to be - Bobad does it all the time, so does bBearded Bruce, MtheGM did it, and numerous others, regularly
The Israeli Minister of Justice said it publicly and you supported her doing so.....
Anybody who makes such a suggestion is antisemitic by definition.
Anybody who accuses Jewish politicians of a pact of silence to cover up the nature of antisemitism to protect their party is an antisemite - you did that
Your own right wing extremist statements include describing all male Muslims of being implanted to have underage sex - straight from the philosophy that sent six million Jews to their deaths.
It doesn't come any more right-wing extreme than that.
"A reliable witness is regarded as strong evidence in any court"
What an unbelievably stupid statement - even for you
A reliable witnesses's SUBSTANTIATED EVIDENCE may be accepted or rejected alongside all evidence but never at any time would an unsubstantiated accusation be ever be taken seriously - never
You have quoted no reliable witnesses - you have repeated unfounded accusations - substantiate them or abandon your fanatical crusade against the Labour Party.
What exactly are you accusing Labour Party members of - kidnapping Christian children to use them for blood sacrifices maybe?
WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS "SERIOUS ANTI SEMITISM" IN THE LABOUR PARTY
I've asked you this several times and you have said you don't know - are you any neared to finding out yet?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:00 AM

Now for something far more serious
Who is Bob Pegg?
Is he the comic actor who starred in the hilarious 'Sean of the Dead' or 'Hot Fuzz', or, 'Paul' or 'World's End'
The name rings a bell
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:13 AM

No - That is Simon Pegg. Bob Pegg and his wife Carolanne were the founder members of early 70's Folk/Rock band Mr Fox. Bob writes songs which often display his love of the Yorkshire dales. If you do YouTube the song I was particularly referring to is here

Mr Fox - The Gypsy

Long song but one of my favourites. Not sure if it will be your cup of tea, Jim, but even if it isn't it will be infinitely preferable to going round and round in circles :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:16 AM

Can't you fellers tell when you'being wound up?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:38 AM

I loved Mr. Fox, and Bob's a great writer. I still occasionally do 'Fiddler's Cross'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:40 AM

I did wonder, Jim, but played it safe just in case. I guess I am too used to dealing with wazzocks who treat everything said as an opportunity to score points ;-)

Have you heard the song already then?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:45 AM

More fascistic behaviour from the usual pack of jackals as they try to close down a thread about a subject that makes them uncomfortable - welcome to the brave new world of the regressive left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 07:57 AM

"regressive left."
The regressive right sent six million Jews to their deaths
Regressive right Pinochet oversaw the rape, torture and murder of his opponents and his friend, regressive right Thatcher described his policy as her kind of democracy
Regressive right Assad continues to massacre his own people
Regressive right Trump has appointed a raving antisemite onto his team and is consorting with historical antisemite Mm LePen (still no comment from you).
Hitler was of the regressive right, as were his supporters and his stauch ally Mussolini
It's nice to know you are happy to align yorself with this particular branch of politics - please feel free to refer to us as "the regressive left" whenever it takes your fancy
I would be happy to wear your badge with pride
Enjoy your night out at the Biergarten
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:02 AM

Sorry forgot to reply
"Have you heard the song already then?"
Certainly have - once was enough
Pretentious crap and impossible to follow with the noise they've wrapped around it - nothing to do with folk music as I understand it
But that's an argument for elsewhere
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:31 AM

Don't beat about the bush, Jim. Tell us what you really think :-) You must bear in mind of course that we are talking early 70s here. When talking pretentious crap I don't think you can hold a candle to prog. rock. I still love it though :-D And, surely, this is an ideal place for such an argument ;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:33 AM

Regressive right / regressive left = two sides of the same coin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:36 AM

"Regressive right / regressive left = two sides of the same coin."
Meaningless nonsense
You have chosen your friends, I'll stick with mine.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 08:45 AM

Sorry Dave - didn't reply - I like to seperate my friends from my foes
I have no objection to rock per-se - whatever turns you on.
It's when it is claimed to be something it is not that cause the problems, especially to a researcher - hence the "pretentious".
I grew up with and grew out of rock music - I have an extremely broad taste in music, but it doesn't include modern pop of any form - it doesn't do anything for me and it is too ephemeral to get a firm grip on - don't get me started abot the "pump up the volume" school of non-thought - musical fascism at its most extreme.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:05 AM

"Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? It really is a simple question."

I agree it is really a simple question and one that anyone fully prepared to look honestly and critically at what has been going in the Labour Party since the departure of Ed Miliband could answer.

As to the question itself - Do I believe that Labour Party members are more likely to be anti-Semitic than anyone else? - Simple short answer to that on examination of the "evidence" is YES.

Reasons for arriving at that conclusion as follows (None of these reasons apply to "anyone else"):

1: After Labour failed to win the 2015 General Election Ed Miliband resigned as leader and was succeeded by Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy Corbyn is on record as describing Hamas and Hezbollah, both proscribed terrorist organisations as being friends.

2: With the election of Jeremy Corbyn a group called "Momentum", which is basically a rework of the "Militant Tendency" of old flooded to "join" the Labour Party to ensure that Corbyn stayed as leader.

3: Anyone who challenged Corbyn's leadership felt the weight of such "dissention" - ask Angela Eagle.

4: Corbyn supports BDS, so does "Momentum" and I would say the bulk of their membership.

5: When the OULC voted on it the Jewish Co-Chairman resigned stating that the reason for his resignation centred around Jewish members not feeling safe at meetings - Does backing BDS really require that those assembled at meetings sing "Rockets over Tel Aviv"?

6: While those here draw fine lines between Jew and Israeli regime and "Palestinian" and their "leaders" the bulk of the membership of "Momentum" do not and if the "Great Leader" says that he supports BDS as a means of bringing down Israel then "his" crew are highly likely to support any "Palestinian" position against any view held by a Jew, whether in Israel or in the UK.

7: One Inquiry into the OULC led by Baroness Royall, led to another investigating racism, misogyny, intimidation. Over 50 members, some quite high profile members too, at least four Constituency Labour Parties suspended. Labour's NEC tried it's best to muzzle Royall's report, the second Inquiry led by Chakrabarti was a classic "whitewash" it's sole purpose the second the full content of Royall's report was known (No thanks to Labour or it's NEC).

8: Baroness Royall made a number of recommendations some of them she clearly stated as requiring urgent and immediate attention to address concerns related to anti-Semitism - Apparently Labour's NEC have decided to ignore those recommendations and Hamas and Hezbollah still remain firm friends of the "Great Leader".


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:20 AM

Good points Teribus but there is one thing missing. The question was "Do you believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?" Your points, albeit valid, do not address the question as they do not perform the necessary comparison with others. Do we have any statistics showing what the percentage of antismites is in the Labour party compared to incidence in the rest of the population. Unless we do, how can anyone say that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else? Please note, I am talking about Labour party members in general. Not any subset of that.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:46 AM

Here we go again.😡

PointlesspointlesspointlesspointlesspointlessPOINTLESSpointbloodyless...


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 09:47 AM

Don't forget Mosley Jim. He more than anyone is the inspiration for the current bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:13 AM

"Simple short answer to that on examination of the "evidence" is YES."
Nice to see the "evidence" in inverted commas at long last
The nest step is to find what it is.
Accusations are not "evidence" - they are only allusions.
Evidence proper is a full description of what accusations consist of.
I know plenty of people who find black people intimidating or don't trust Orientals or Asians
For these accusations to become tangible they need to be described
Your suggestion of post Milliband antisemitism doesn't make sense - antisemitism is the domain of the right - it was that particular school of thought that condemned six million Jews to death
This is what Corbyn said about the report accusations - makes far more sense than believing that a philosophy based on anti-bigotry suddenly about faced, coincidently when Corbyn announced his support for BDS

"Although the committee heard evidence that 75% of antisemitic incidents come from far right sources, and the report states there is no reliable evidence to suggest antisemitism is greater in Labour than other parties, much of the report focuses on the Labour party.
As the report rightly acknowledges, politicising antisemitism – or using it as a weapon in controversies between and within political parties – does the struggle against it a disservice."
Corbyn added that he believed the committee was unfair in its criticism of Chakrabarti for being insufficiently independent. "This fails to acknowledge public statements that the offer to appoint Chakrabarti to the House of Lords came after completion of her report, and was based on her extensive legal and campaigning experience," he said.

This is an official by the Jewish Socialist Group, far more authoritative that the right wing on the socialist aims of the party than career politicians like Milliband and his ilk
Jim Carroll

"Statement on "Labour's problem with antisemitism"
From the Jewish Socialists' Group
Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism.
Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews.
Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds.
Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a "problem" of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn's longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.
A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.
The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:

• The Conservative Party

• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources

• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community

• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.
The Jewish Socialists' Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as "a swarm" and "a bunch of migrants". The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.
The Jewish Socialists' Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.
We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism."


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM

"Don't forget Mosley Jim."
I don't David - nor do I forget that Nazi is short for national Socialist.
Totally meaningless if your aim has nothing whatever to do with Socialism.
My family weer Socialists in pre-war Liverpool and they took to the streets to stop Mosely's Blackshirts who weer being defended by the good old British bobbies
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 17 - 10:18 AM

DtG - I believe I did answer your simple question fully, giving my reasons for what I believe - something you never do, but there again you very rarely ever say anything and obviously believe very little.

Now for anyone arguing the opposite in your view wouldn't they have to have the same statistics to argue their point? And remember nobody is, or has ever argued that the Labour Party is anti-Semitic, only that there is a problem with anti-Semitism within the Labour Party that has become increasingly more noticeable since Corbyn took over. And YES for the reasons I have given - "I do believe that Labour party members are more likely to be antisemitic than anyone else?" with such a leader in charge.


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