BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:05 AM

Has it, Teribus? I suppose you can provide us with more up to date evidence that east Europeans cause crime waves then?

And Al, have you any idea how offensive it is to suggest that east Europeans are more likely to be criminals than others to someone whose Polish Father had just died?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM

"2008!!! that is nine years ago Gnome - a great deal has changed since then."
And no evidence has been found since then
"Which elicited this from poor old confused and frothed up Jom:"
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody
You have always dismissed anything from the press that does not suit your extremist agenda - submarines, Bin Laden..... all "made up Carroll shit"
You wre given links to article afte atricle about Bin Laden and it was all wrong as far as yoiu are concerned and here you are defending one of Britain's most popular bumwipes
If you feel free to call someone a "loutish posturing liar" don't be surprised when they feel free to express their opinion of you
You are a crude, brutish, ill-bred, ill mannered ignoramus who substitutes vitriolic abuse for argument in the hope of covering up your lack of knowledge
Give it a rest and stop polluting this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:42 AM

Dave,
Unlike Keith who rules out all but the cultural implant one.

You lie about me.
When I said I believed that view, it was the only one around.
I have a completely open mind to alternatives.

Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 05:59 PM
I think the point is that British Pakistanis, and I only use the term to be consistent with the thread, are over-represented in these cases. I have no doubt as to the veracity of Keiths figures.
......
The suggestion is, I guess, that simply by quoting the figures, it displays a racial motive? I don't accept that premise in all cases I am afraid. While I would suspect that certain right wing politicians, who shall remain nameless here, do have that hidden agenda, why should I suspect that Lord Ahmed or Jack Straw are acting in the same way?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:54 AM

So then Keith. Do you now accept that there may be other reasons for the over-representation?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:56 AM

Rag,
The very article he "quoted" from stated very clearly that 95% of people on the Sex Offenders Register in Manchester are WHITE.

If you read the old thread you will see that I always acknowledged that other sexual crimes had a different pattern.
This whole discussion is about on street grooming.

Jim is out on a limb in denying the over-representation.
Both Steve and Dave acknowledged the truth of it.
Who are you going to back Rag?

Jim,
His main claim to fane is "Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani MUSLIMS have a culturally implanted tendency"

Why wouldn't I believe all those credible and mostly Pakistani people?
Why didn't you?

However the 300 odd criminals "over-representing" the Muslim population

Jim, Pakistanis form less than 2% of the population.
If they form 2% or more of any group they are over-represented.
Guardian,
"of the 68 recent convictions involving child sexual exploitation, 59 were of British Pakistani men,"
That is 87%, so the over-representation is massive!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:59 AM

Another rant from liar Carroll.

So you obviously could not find any post of mine where I "just said that the press all tell lies and support the establishment and it was fine by you if Trump banned them all from White House news conferences"

Got me confused with somebody else?

On this thread Carroll I have not just called someone a "loutish, posturing liar" I have actually proved it. On a similar vein I exposed you as a barefaced liar (i.e. someone who knowingly and deliberately states something that is false and untrue) and am utterly amazed that despite obvious documented evidence you still persist in your lies - Jim Carroll right the rest of the world wrong - and you have got the gall to complain about arrogance?

How about this for talking down to people:

"Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place." - Jim Carroll

Oh yes you're the prat who believes in there being a "pecking order" on this forum aren't you? That was what you meant when you mention people "forgetting their place" - Your new place Jom - that of a proven liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:02 AM

Dave,
So then Keith. Do you now accept that there may be other reasons for the over-representation?

I always did. As I said at the time, I believed that one " only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."

As you said, "I did, incidentaly, put up what I felt were reasonable reasons for such an over-representation earlier but only Keith chose to respond. And then to only agree that he, like myself, did not have an answer! "

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:08 AM

Interesting article on the BBC yesterday and today outlining alleged systematic abuse of children in Australia.

Link

I doubt many Pakistani men will be found amongst the perpetrators, lots of so called christians though.

I wonder if it is a cultural thing and that we need to be wary of all men who claim to be Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:09 AM

"When I said I believed that view, it was the only one around."
It wasn't around until you made it up Keith
All the people you claim to have quoted actuallty said that there was know known reason for the behaviour of a tiny handful of criminals (you have never had the honesty to acknowledge how few there are) yet you chose to condemn an entire cultre of one and a half million people with your racist smear.
I don't lie - I put up exactly what you said and will continue to do so as long as you continue to call me a liar
They wre yoiu exact words and you have continued to defend them - it is still your view - and you still refuse to provide quotes for your dishonest claims.
Gerald Kaufman
A "self hating Jew" presumably
Loise Ellman
Vice Chairman of The Friends of Israel
Mark Gardner
A Pro-Israeli activist opposed to any criticism of Israel's behaviour of the Palestinian People
Ruth Smeeth
Pro Israel supporter who attended one of Netenayahu's meetings at which she openly supported his most racist and most criticised attacks on the Muslim people
All good, upright, honest and trustworthy people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:11 AM

Coooeeee professor, there is no "little gang" I don't have to "back" anyone.

Remind us what you posted "Don I now believe" wasn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:14 AM

Rag, child abuse is found everywhere.
I doubt many Christian men will be found amongst these perpetrators,

Pakistan child sex abuse: Seven arrested in Punjab - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33843765

10/08/2015 · Seven people are arrested in eastern Pakistan on suspicion of involvement in a widespread child sexual abuse and extortion scandal.

Pakistan horrified over child abuse ring revelations ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/11795388/Pakistan...
10/08/2015 · Pakistan horrified over child abuse ring revelations Reports more than 270 children aged as young as 12 abused by gang that would then blackmail their ...

7 charged in Pakistan child abuse case - CNN.com
www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/asia/pakistan-child-abuse/index.html

12/08/2015 · Seven people accused of blackmailing children into making sex videos and then threatening to sell the footage have been arrested in Pakistan's Punjab province.

Pakistan's wall of silence on child abuse - Home - BBC News
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/248219.stm

A new report on attitudes to child sex abuse in Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province paints a horrifying picture of widespread abuse. The report shows that many of ...

Child sexual abuse ring busted in Pakistan
CNN

1:06
Child abuse scandal shocks Pakistan
REUTERS

2:43
Pakistan child abuse activists push for government action
MSN

4:09
Fighting child abuse in Pakistan
One News Page
See more videos of pakistan child abuse
Pakistan's Hidden Shame - All 4
www.channel4.com/programmes/pakistans-hidden-shame

Powerful documentary about the sexual exploitation and abuse of many thousands of poor and vulnerable children in Pakistan's north-western city of Peshawar

Child Sex Abuse Steps Out Of The Shadows In Pakistan
www.rferl.org/a/pakistan-child-sex-abuse/25170821.html

Out of the shadows and into the public eye; activists say the number of reported sex-abuse cases involving children rose by more than 20 percent in Pakistan last year ...

Pakistan child sex abuse scandal: Hundreds of children ...
www.ibtimes.co.uk › Crime

Pakistan child sex abuse scandal: Hundreds of children filmed being sexually abused in the Punjab
Pakistan stumbles upon its 'biggest' child abuse case ...
www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/08/pakistan-stumbles-biggest-child-sex...

Officials in the Pakistani state of Punjab have called for a federal inquiry into what it called the largest-ever child abuse case in the South Asian country's ...
Why millions of Pakistani children are falling prey to ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2739799/Why-millions-Pakistani...

Pakistan is home to 1.5m street children, 90% of whom have been abused; Naeem, 13, from Peshawar was gang-raped by four men and is ... Sexual abuse in Pakistan is rife.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM

"Oh yes you're the prat who believes in there being a "pecking order" "
I didn't till I came across yuo and Iainas
" I have actually proved it"
You have never proved anything because you refuse to substantiate anything - they are all your opinions - nothing more
"So you obviously could not find any post of mine ....."
If you care to read what I actually wrote (not one of your habits) I pointed out that I mistook your posting for one of Ake's - I went on to point out that there was little to distinguish between the two of you.
Perhaps I should apologise - to Ake
He, at least is just slippily and evasively dishonest - you are bullying, blustering and thuggish
For all Ake's faults, that cannot be applied to him
My comments about Iains was a response to his continuing insulting and patronising behaviour to those who have the temerity not to agree with him - if started in his early postings, has continued and looks as if it will do so until somebody stops him - mine was an effort to do so.
One lout on these threads is sufficient
"Missed a bit in my reply to you Keith
Why wouldn't I believe all those credible and mostly Pakistani people?"
We don't believe them because they didn't saY it
Why don't you believe all those prominent people, MPs, community leaders, Musilim activists in the community..... who said Jack Staw's statement was a load of shit?
There mere many hundreds more of them than the few you invented?
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
Now - those quote - who described All male British Pakistanis as culturally implanted potential perverts
A quote or a link will do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:30 AM

In which case, Keith, I was wrong to say you believed it was the only reason.

So, before we go down another wrong track, you believe the over-representation could be due to

1. British Pakistanis being culturally implanted to commit these crimes
2. That demographic is also over-represented in the taxi trade which has the ability to commit these crimes easily
3. The police are concentrating more on that demographic
4. That demographic is not as good at hiding it's crimes as others
5. Other reasons as yet undiscovered

If do. why then did you state that the other reasons were only excuses and did not explain the 'real' over-representation?

Incidentally, I think it is significant that the figures you quote only start in, what was it, 1998? British Pakistanis have been around a lot longer than that. Why would the over-representation only start to happen less than 20 years ago?

DtG



DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 05:02 AM

" Rag, child abuse is found everywhere. I doubt many Christian men will be found amongst these perpetrators" from the professor at 04.14 am 27.2.17

That I presume was a knee jerk response from someone who had not actually read and/or understood the article.

The widespread abuse was carried out in schools run by religious orders and charities. Some estimates quoted on the news yesterday claim that over 60% of the children were abused.

Those religious schools and charities were CHRISTIAN. Is there something within this culture which leads them to abuse?

If so we need to look carefully at all so called Christians .... don't we.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 05:37 AM

You really are wasting your time with Keith's engrained racism Dave
He was given this at the time and chose to ignore it
No cultural link and not exclusively Muslim - just young opportunist criminals as Jack Straw pointed out.
Jim Carroll

From the Independent - four years ago
The Oxford child sex abuse verdict highlights a cultural problem, but not a specifically Muslim one
Parallels between the Oxford case and last year's case in Rochdale raise some difficult questions. But the issues are much more complex than they seem
The distressing details of the Oxford child abuse case raise echoes of a similar case last year, involving the grooming of children for sex in Rochdale. In both, under-age white girls were the victims. All or most of the perpetrators were Asian men. The girls were from vulnerable backgrounds, including local authority care homes. Drugs, alcohol and violence were used to coerce the girls – and in both cases other men paid to use the girls for sex.

Many people will be tempted to ask why lessons were not learnt from Rochdale which might have shortened the ordeal of the girls in Oxford.

In fact, for all the similarities, there are key differences between the cases, which, despite the time-lag in the trials, were actually taking place over the same period. The Rochdale abuse was from 2008-09. The Oxford ordeal stretched over eight years from 2004 to 2012.

The greatest difference lay in the motivation of the two groups of abusers, according to Mohammed Shafiq, of the Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim youth organisation, who was one of the first Asian community leaders to acknowledge that a disproportionate number of the men involved in on-street grooming were British Pakistanis. "The Rochdale abusers were taxi drivers and takeaway workers using the girls for quick sex. When they took money from other men to have sex with the girls the amounts were around £20-£30 a time," says Mr Shafiq.

"Oxford is much more to do with money. The men exploiting the girls were charging others £200-£600 a time and bringing eight to 10 men a day into hotels and restrooms. It was much more organised."

That view is echoed by Alyas Karmani, a Muslim imam and psychologist, who works in the Pakistani community in major UK cities to combat attitudes that tolerate or encourage sexual violence against women. "It's important to understand the different pathways in and out of the offending behaviour," he says. "The ringleader in Rochdale was a serial paedophile but the men in that case were not paedophiles in the classic sense," he says. "They were not looking for under-age girls; they took the opportunity when they were presented with it.

"Oxford is a more gang-related crime. They were younger men, linked to drug-dealing and financial crime along the M4 corridor."

In the Oxford case, the sexual violence was more extreme. One of the victims described what she had undergone as "torture sex". Another was told the gang would cut off her head if she did not perform oral sex on them all.

"In the Oxford case the humiliation and torturing was much more sadistic," says Mr Karmani, who works with the police in such cases. The detail was so gruesome that the media only published about 10 per cent of what the police uncovered.

By contrast, in the Rochdale case some of the girls were so confused by the nature of their abuse that during the trial they were still insisting the men involved loved them.

What both cases highlight is the progress that has been made against child sexual exploitation – and the work yet to be done. The Muslim community, which was so long in denial about the acts committed by a few of its members, has begun to confront the problem. "We can't refute the statistics that a disproportionate number of those involved in grooming are British Asian men," says Mr Karmani. But the problem is not confined to young Asian men. It is nothing to do with Muslim culture, he says, though that culture does have traditions that can help counter such thinking. Some of his strategies, as an imam, are straightforwardly religious. "That thinking is not compatible with Islam," he says. But it also trades on the strong family traditions of Asian culture. "'Would you want someone to do that to your sister?' I ask them."

And Muslim community leaders are anxious that their acknowledgement of the problem should not focus disproportionate blame on British Asians. "Child sex abuse happens in all communities," says Mohammed Shafiq. "The white abusers tend to be loners or do it online, or are friends of the victim's family. It's only in on-street grooming that there is an over-representation of Pakistani men."

Police, social workers, academics and children's charity workers agree. Greater Manchester Police, in whose area the Rochdale offences took place, says 95 per cent of the men on its sex offenders register are white. Just five per cent are Asian. Wendy Shepherd, child sexual exploitation project manager with Barnardo's in the north of England, says that most abusers are white and most child sex exploitation happens in the home.

Asians can be the victims too. Mr Karmani cites the case of a Bangladeshi father he has worked with whose daughter was being groomed by a Turkish gang who were giving her heroin. "In the cases which have been given a high profile by the media Asian men have been caught because the group they have operated in is big and blatant," he says.

But most of the lessons that need to be learnt are among state authorities. "Social workers and police failed to take victims seriously: they said they had made an 'informed choice' which was wrong," says Jim Taylor, who has taken over as chief executive at Rochdale Borough Council. "The Council and other agencies missed opportunities to offer assistance."

In Rochdale, that learning process is well underway. Disciplinary investigations are being conducted into the culpability of three individuals who have been suspended pending the inquiry. An independent review of processes and procedures has been set up under an outside expert. But even before it reports a number of new measures have been put in place.

"We've appointed a new leadership team with a wealth of relevant experience," says Mr Taylor. It is led by Gladys Rhodes White who some years ago set up a pioneering project called Engage to prevent and prosecute child sex abuse in nearby Blackburn. The team has re-examined the files of the 47 victims from the original cases and two more sets of prosecutions are in the pipeline.

"We've had awareness workshops for 10,000 children in every local secondary school and 1,500 council staff have had training," says Mr Taylor. "And we have a Child Sexual Exploitation car staffed by police and youth workers patrolling hotspots."

Rochdale social services now have a single point of contact for all referrals of concern on child sex abuse. Local taxi-drivers are more regulated, with Criminal Records Bureau checks having been made more consistent. There is a monthly forum where police, youth service, youth offending team, social workers and private providers exchange information. A scheme to help police share data across all 10 Manchester boroughs is being investigated, though it is encountering data protection problems. "There's still a lot to do," says Jim Taylor, "but we're improving rapidly."

There is more to do in the Muslim community. "There's a disconnect between the elders and the young people," says Mr Karmani. It reaches across poor Asian communities in the northern mill towns and comparatively affluent Muslim communities in places like Oxford. "We need better youth programmes but there's not enough funding to be pro-active," he said.

But Muslims want action in wider society. "There are serious questions to be asked about the behaviour of the owners of the hotels who allowed these men to check in with young girls and then have multiple visitors to their rooms," says Mr Shafiq.

Mr Taylor wants to see other changes. A council from another part of the country can send a child in its care to a private children's home elsewhere, where care is cheaper. Rochdale has a large number of outsiders in such homes. But those far-away councils can manage the care of that child "by remote" without any duty to inform or liaise with Rochdale social services. That must change. So must the fact that Ofsted doesn't have to inform local social services of the results of its inspections of smaller care homes

But responsibility to stamp out child abuse must go far wider, says Ms Rhodes White. "I want the message out there to the public. If you see something not right, like older men with young girls buying drinks and gifts, don't be afraid to report it." That responsibility cannot be limited to one community or one set of public officials. It is the job, she says, of us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 06:19 AM

OK Carroll here is your latest invention and lie exposed:

Post 1

Jim Carroll - 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PM

""Messenger Dan" is far better informed and clued up than some loutish, posturing liar down in Cornwall."
Youve just said that the press all tell lies and support the establishment and it was fine by you if Trump banned them all from White House news conferences
Make up your fucking mind you mad fascist

As the "messenger Dan" quote was mine and you make no other reference to anyone else then the "You've" must also refer to me. Only thing was I never said anything of the sort - Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit" - a lie in other words.

Post 2 Teribus - 27 Feb 17 - 01:38 AM I draw your attention to the FACT that I never said any such thing.

Post 3

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM

"2008!!! that is nine years ago Gnome - a great deal has changed since then."
And no evidence has been found since then
"Which elicited this from poor old confused and frothed up Jom:"
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody
You have always dismissed anything from the press that does not suit your extremist agenda - submarines, Bin Laden..... all "made up Carroll shit"
You wre given links to article afte atricle about Bin Laden and it was all wrong as far as yoiu are concerned and here you are defending one of Britain's most popular bumwipes
If you feel free to call someone a "loutish posturing liar" don't be surprised when they feel free to express their opinion of you
You are a crude, brutish, ill-bred, ill mannered ignoramus who substitutes vitriolic abuse for argument in the hope of covering up your lack of knowledge
Give it a rest and stop polluting this forum
Jim Carroll

Post 4

Jim Carroll - 27 Feb 17 - 04:09 AM

"When I said I believed that view, it was the only one around."
It wasn't around until you made it up Keith
All the people you claim to have quoted actuallty said that there was know known reason for the behaviour of a tiny handful of criminals (you have never had the honesty to acknowledge how few there are) yet you chose to condemn an entire cultre of one and a half million people with your racist smear.
I don't lie - I put up exactly what you said and will continue to do so as long as you continue to call me a liar
They wre yoiu exact words and you have continued to defend them - it is still your view - and you still refuse to provide quotes for your dishonest claims.
Gerald Kaufman
A "self hating Jew" presumably
Loise Ellman
Vice Chairman of The Friends of Israel
Mark Gardner
A Pro-Israeli activist opposed to any criticism of Israel's behaviour of the Palestinian People
Ruth Smeeth
Pro Israel supporter who attended one of Netenayahu's meetings at which she openly supported his most racist and most criticised attacks on the Muslim people
All good, upright, honest and trustworthy people
Jim Carroll

Post 5

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 04:29 AM

"Oh yes you're the prat who believes in there being a "pecking order" "
I didn't till I came across yuo and Iainas
" I have actually proved it"
You have never proved anything because you refuse to substantiate anything - they are all your opinions - nothing more
"So you obviously could not find any post of mine ....."
If you care to read what I actually wrote (not one of your habits) I pointed out that I mistook your posting for one of Ake's - I went on to point out that there was little to distinguish between the two of you.
Perhaps I should apologise - to Ake
He, at least is just slippily and evasively dishonest - you are bullying, blustering and thuggish
For all Ake's faults, that cannot be applied to him
My comments about Iains was a response to his continuing insulting and patronising behaviour to those who have the temerity not to agree with him - if started in his early postings, has continued and looks as if it will do so until somebody stops him - mine was an effort to do so.
One lout on these threads is sufficient
"Missed a bit in my reply to you Keith
Why wouldn't I believe all those credible and mostly Pakistani people?"
We don't believe them because they didn't saY it
Why don't you believe all those prominent people, MPs, community leaders, Musilim activists in the community..... who said Jack Staw's statement was a load of shit?
There mere many hundreds more of them than the few you invented?
Are yuo a racist or what (rheororical question - of course)
Now - those quote - who described All male British Pakistanis as culturally implanted potential perverts
A quote or a link will do
Jim Carroll

Right then numbnuts you show me anywhere in between Post 1 and post 4 above where you -

If you care to read what I actually wrote (not one of your habits) I POINTED OUT THAT I MISTOOK YOUR POSTING FOR ONE OF AKE's - I went on to point out that there was little to distinguish between the two of you.

FACT is you didn't - Jim Carroll caught out in yet another blatant barefaced lie - don't need any links as I have just faithfully copied and pasted exactly what you posted - you should be f**kin' ashamed of yourself Carroll.

Be interesting to see if Steve Shaw who doesn't tolerate lies standing on this forum comes in to pull up Carroll for his conduct - my guess is he won't, after all he has never done so in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 06:20 AM

"Both Steve and Dave acknowledged the truth of it"

Did I now? I don't remember. Chapter and verse, please.

Jim, you could also have mentioned John Mann's deliberate staging of his confected public spat with Ken Livingstone and Ruth Smeeth's histrionics and fake tears at the launch of the Chakrabarti report. These are precisely the kinds of dishonest opportunists who would immediately leap on Gerald Kaufman's every word. He wasn't always "careful" about what he said (why should he have been?) but he was brutally and fearlessly truthful about the mistreatment of Palestinians by the Israeli regime. What a pity for the "there's-an-antisemite-under-every-bed" brigade that he was a Jew! He certainly had the Board of Deputies spluttering when they pronounced him "a self-hating Jew," which he was anything but. Still, it was nice to waste bobad's time by getting him to produce his litany of arrant nonsense. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 06:23 AM

Jaysus, I'll say this for you, Teribus. I admire your boundless energy if nothing else (AND nothing else, actually). Alternatively, get a life.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 06:32 AM

"Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your (supporst?) for a mass murder and torturer."

Better that than being a raving, rabid ranter such as yourself Jimmy.
Your only response to people that disagree with you is acres of cut and paste, splashing a paintbox everywhere, frothing incoherence and hurling insults. Not exactly admirable traits now are they?
IF all labour resembles you their lack lustre ranking in the recent polls is hardly a surprise now is it?
Congratulations on smug bastard. It is good to ring the changes!
What delights do you have in the way of insults for later in the week?
Oh and by the way, I only put the link up so you and stevie could react as predicted. Gives a little light relief for the rest of us.
   I suggest you both go back to discussing weeds- if it gets too much for you I can always supply some roundup to cure the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 06:46 AM

"No cultural link and not exclusively Muslim" - Jim Carroll

At no time at all has anyone said this has anything to do with religion. If you have any proof of me having done so please produce it.

From your long cut'n'paste we get the following from Mohammed Shafiq:

"Child sex abuse happens in all communities," says Mohammed Shafiq. "The white abusers tend to be loners or do it online, or are friends of the victim's family. It's only in on-street grooming that there is an over-representation of Pakistani men."

Also this from Mr Karmani:

"We can't refute the statistics that a disproportionate number of those involved in grooming are British Asian men," says Mr Karmani

Also this:

That view is echoed by Alyas Karmani, a Muslim imam and psychologist, who works in the Pakistani community in major UK cities to combat attitudes that tolerate or encourage sexual violence against women.

Now are you saying that these three men do not know what they are talking about?? We know their "qualifications" and involvement with what is clearly seen as a problem requiring urgent and immediate action - What are yours?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:11 AM

Do give over, Iains. You're just here for a scrap, that much is clear. You appear to know diddly about the issues being "discussed." Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:17 AM

"At no time at all has anyone said this has anything to do with religion."
Sigh.......
Keith pointed the accusation at "Pakistanini Musilime" - not Siks, or Christians, or Bush Baptists.......
He and others have cosistenly gone into long diatribes about the teaching of Islam leading to the debasing of women - which he has claimed is s source of those abuses
Bobad at one time but the largest cut-'n-paste ever seen on this forum (lifted directly from an Islamophobic racist site and dating back to the pre-Christian era), attempting to prove Islam to be a degenerate religion.
They were not talking about where they bought their shoes - this was an attack on their religion.
Karmaini goes on to provide a list of reasons why these crimes take place other than the culture or religion of the perpetrators - opportunity, occupations - Straw added the actions of "testosterone-fizzing young men"
"Are you saying these people, and thousands more, including judges and policemen who try cases and social workers who have to deal with them, don't know what they are talking about?
What's your qualifications?
We are not disputing there isn't a problem that has to be dealt with - any serious crime falls under that category.
The problem is when racists use those crimes to smear entire cultures and races.
The article I put up points out that over 95% of theese crimes are white indigenous, many of them family based
Is that due to a cultural implant?
"Better that than being a raving, rabid ranter such as yourself Jimmy."
Not even original abuse Iains - you lack imagination as well as good manners.
Your arrogance went on full drive on your earliest postings - it didn't measure up to your ignorance then and it still doesn't
We can all be snappish in our arguments - you are nothing but.
You start off talking down to people and end the same, with nothing in between
You display no knowledge of the subjects you involve yourself in, and no interest in what others have to say.
Whenever points are put to you, you ignore them and continue with you spitefully childish abuse.
That is not debate - i's abusive arrogance
The cut and paste you refer to is information to be discussed - you don't go there

"Better that than being a raving, rabid ranter such as yourself Jimmy."
" splashing a paintbox everywhere, frothing incoherence"
"Congratulations on smug bastard"
"What delights do you have in the way of insults for later in the week?"
" I only put the link up so you and stevie could react as predicted. Gives a little light relief for the rest of us."
"I suggest you both go back to discussing weeds- if it gets too much for you I can always supply some roundup to cure the problem."
Not bad for one posting - it usually takes Teribus half a dozen to plummet those depths
I put his down to insecurity of opinion - you seem to just exist up your own arse and you're not even good at it, having stolen most of it from elsewhere, like your claimed knowledge of socialism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:31 AM

merely responding in kind jimmy.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:41 AM

Jim,
Now - those quote - who described All male British Pakistanis as culturally implanted potential perverts

I actually do not think they were all paedophiles or perverts.
It had more to do with those vulnerable children being "easy meat."

I quoted lots of people saying it was a cultural issue, and we are all implanted to some extent by our culture.

Jim, your Independent article is quite clear that there is an over-representation, and says it is cultural.


"At no time at all has anyone said this has anything to do with religion."
Sigh.......
Keith pointed the accusation at "Pakistanini Musilime" - not Siks, or Christians, or Bush Baptists.......

You knowingly lie.
You know I repeatedly stated that Islam was not an issue in the offending. That it had nothing to do with Islam.
That part of my post was in quotes.
Remember why?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:48 AM

Steve,
"Both Steve and Dave acknowledged the truth of it"

Did I now? I don't remember. Chapter and verse, please.

In answer to this from me,

A large number, many hundreds, of children were groomed and gang raped by BPs in certain northern cities over the last ten years.

I had to keep saying it because you and others either deny it or say it is not significant.

Do you still deny it?
Do you think it significant?
Do you think it racist?

You posted,

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 17 Mar 11 - 02:20 PM

When have I ever denied it? Or said it was insignificant?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 07:58 AM

"I actually do not think they were all paedophiles or perverts."
Then why did you describe them so and why do you insist that they are by pretending to claim other have sai so?#
"I quoted lots of people saying it was a cultural issue,"
No - you quoted a tiny handful who said there might be cultural implications but they didn't know what the reason was for the criminality
You turned that into a "cultural" implant and went on to invent a "massive imbalance"
"your Independent article is quite clear that there is an over-representation, and says it is cultural."
It says there is some (not massive) in Oxford and it says that if it is cultural it is not "Muslim" but from the surrounding circumstances - it goes on to outline those circumstances - nothing to do with being "Muslim"
And still you continue to claim it is
You specified Muslim Pakistanis - every last one of them - those who weren't rapists have to suppress their culture
That was the enormity of your racism
You really have nowhere to go frem here Keith
You asked for an example of your extremism - you have it, and thanks to your denials and protestations, you've allowed us to elaborate on it and the longer you continue, the more opportunity you give us.
"merely responding in kind jimmy."
You are now openly lying Iains
You started this to attempt to display your imagined superiority; you have acheived just the opposite
My chosen name is Jim - have the courtesy to use it.
Jim is reserved for people I know and like
You do all this from the safety of your keyboard - you don't even have the bottle to identify yourself - that is cyber-stalking - yet another of yor qualities!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:01 AM

Dave,
Incidentally, I think it is significant that the figures you quote only start in, what was it, 1998? British Pakistanis have been around a lot longer than that. Why would the over-representation only start to happen less than 20 years ago?

I do not know Dave, but the crime is a comparatively new one.
I doubt there are any reported cases before that.


If do. why then did you state that the other reasons were only excuses and did not explain the 'real' over-representation?

We were both quite clear that there was a real over-representation.
I do not accept theories that seek to explain that away.


1. British Pakistanis being culturally implanted to commit these crimes

I said I believed that.

2. That demographic is also over-represented in the taxi trade which has the ability to commit these crimes easily

Possibly, but there has yet to be an instance of this crime in towns where other demographics drive the taxis.

3. The police are concentrating more on that demographic

The evidence is that the police tended to ignore this crime possibly to avoid accusations of racism.

4. That demographic is not as good at hiding it's crimes as others

That would be a racist view.

5. Other reasons as yet undiscovered.

Yes, my mind is open to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:02 AM

It seems strange to me that some posters are more than happy to have accusations aimed specifically at Pakistani Muslim men but are not prepared to even engage when their own religion and it's culture is shown to exhibit tendencies to abuse young children.

In the latest reports it would seem that the abuse was perpetrated EXCLUSIVELY by white christians much of it in religious schools.

If we look back over recent years many, many cases of reported child abuse have involved white christians.

Is it part of their culture?

Some posters on this site claim to be christians perhaps they could tell us if it is part of their culture.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:21 AM

All good, upright, honest and trustworthy people

Indeed they are unlike you who refuses to acknowledge the contemptible anti-Semitism within the Labour party instead blaming it on a plot perpetuated by Jews in order to undermine the party and it's leader - another canard typical of the kind anti-Semites are fond of perpetuating. In addition your implication that because those people are Jewish and supporters of Israel they are not good, upright, honest and trustworthy people is abhorrent but not unexpected from someone with your track record on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:26 AM

Jim,
"I actually do not think they were all paedophiles or perverts."
Then why did you describe them so and why do you insist that they are by pretending to claim other have sai so

I did not. If you are not lying produce a quote.

No - you quoted a tiny handful who said there might be cultural implications but they didn't know what the reason was for the criminality

They all blamed various aspects of culture as the reason.

It says there is some (not massive) in Oxford and it says that if it is cultural it is not "Muslim" but from the surrounding circumstances - it goes on to outline those circumstances - nothing to do with being "Muslim"

I said many times in the old thread that it was "nothing to do with being Muslim."

The Indy says it was to do with culture, and acknowledged the over-representation.

You specified Muslim Pakistanis - every last one of them - those who weren't rapists have to suppress their culture

The cause was said to be cultural, and we are all implanted to some extent by our culture.

I only said I believed it, and only because of all those credible people, and stating that only a tiny minority were effected.
Read the thread and stop lying about it.

Rag,

It seems strange to me that some posters are more than happy to have accusations aimed specifically at Pakistani Muslim men but are not prepared to even engage when their own religion and it's culture is shown to exhibit tendencies to abuse young children.

I believe that all demographics "exhibit tendencies to abuse young children."
It hardly needs saying that includes whites and Christians.
What moron would be unaware of cases involving those groups!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:32 AM

Again from reports in the media over the past few years many perpetrators of abuse against children were teachers, it is perhaps part of their culture that lends itself to child abuse.

Perhaps a teacher or former teacher could enlighten us.

I suppose if that teacher were also a christian there would be a even greater chance of them being a perpetrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:44 AM

So, basically Keith, you are saying that there is an over-represenation of British Pakistanis in the crimes detailed but even though you do not really know why this is the case, you are happy to propound the theory that it is because of their culture. Is that right?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 08:59 AM

"I did not. If you are not lying produce a quote."
You have had your exact quote over and over again Keith
The discussion was about the abuse of underage girls
You made your "implant" statement
End of story.
"They all blamed various aspects of culture as the reason."
None of them did
They all said specifically taht the causes where not known
You blamed the culture
If you claim differently - produce the quote
Other than out and out racists, nobody has ever suggsted a cultural implant is in any way the cause of the acts of this handful of criminals
By suggesting it, you put the entire community under suspicion
Now - provide your evidence or stop calling me a liar.
"It hardly needs saying that includes whites and Christians."
Why did you specify "all male Pakistani Muslims?
Specify and describe yur Quantify your antisemitism Bobad or you have no case
Doesn't get more simple than that
Those who associate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish people are the only antisemites here - you are the front runner
Your persistent refusal to condemn the accusation that the Jewish members of Parliament have kept silent is confirmation that your concern is for the Israeli regime and not the Jewish people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 09:07 AM

Specify and describe yur Quantify your antisemitism Bobad or you have no case

The Labour party has made the case - you prove that it is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 09:24 AM

"You have had your exact quote over and over again Keith
The discussion was about the abuse of underage girls
You made your "implant" statement
End of story." - Jim Carroll

End of story Jom, it wasn't even the beginning. The "implant" story as you term it was deliberately misrepresented by you as a statement made by Keith A of Hertford - it wasn't - It was a statement made by someone else who Keith A of Hertford quoted and asked for comments on.

Same goes for the "Male Pakistani Muslims" quote you keep waving about like a flag. That phrase was used by someone else and it was quoted by Keith A.

Now back to business:

Where was it that you - "POINTED OUT THAT I MISTOOK YOUR POSTING FOR ONE OF AKE's - I went on to point out that there was little to distinguish between the two of you." - You see I've looked and looked and cannot find it anywhere you lying toerag.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 09:53 AM

Hmmm how did the professor phrase it?

"Don I now believe" wasn't it.

The dictionary definition of Believe is: 1. accept that (something) is true, especially without proof.

Paint it any colour you like the meaning is still the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 10:32 AM

Who's this professor you keep wittering on about Raggy?

Muslim commentators gave opinions and they detailed the predominance of male Pakistani Muslims, I know that Mohammed Shafiq is not a professor and that Alyas Karmani is a researcher and lecturer at Bradford and Leeds Universities so is he the professor you are referring to? he was one of the people who suggested the possible reason for the disproportionate number of British-Pakistani males involved was "cultural". Keith A stated that in the light of the evidence and the fact that no other explanation was offered he accepted the only reason on offer at the time. He has now stated quite clearly that he is perfectly prepared to examine any other reason offered - so far there have been none.

DtG asked a question earlier:

"I think it is significant that the figures you quote only start in, what was it, 1998? British Pakistanis have been around a lot longer than that. Why would the over-representation only start to happen less than 20 years ago?"

Change in population figures possibly. In 2001 there were ~770,000 Pakistanis living in the UK of whom ~56% were born in the UK, ~36% came from Pakistan and the rest from East Africa and Bangladesh. By 2011 that number had grown to ~1,170,000 of that number ~502,000 have come from Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 10:37 AM

You have a problem with names don't you terrikins, Jom, Carroll, Christmas, Shaw, Gnome, Raggy to mention but a few.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 11:01 AM

We are speaking about people born in Britain of Pakistani origin though, Teribus. An influx from Pakistan would not have made a significant difference on the numbers until many years later when those immigrants had children of their own. Which leads me onto a point that had been milling about my head for a while. If this over-representation is by people born in Britain of Pakistani origin, then what culture are we referring to? Those who were of an age to indulge in these crimes beginning in 1998 had been brought up in Britain, schooled in British schools, watched British TV and listened to British music. Which culture is it that has embedded them with a wish to make money out of underage girls?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 11:20 AM

"You see I've looked and looked and cannot find it anywhere you lying toerag."
My apologies - I posted a correction immediately I realised Ake had made the posting - it apparently didn't go off - sometimes happens (happened to you son so long ago)
I'm sure you'll make as much capital from this as possible - that's what you do.
The point remains - you are two of a kind.
"Same goes for the "Male Pakistani Muslims" quote you keep waving about like a flag. That phrase was used by someone else and it was quoted by Keith A."
Now that IS a lie
Keith has never quoted a single individual making such a statement and he refuses to do so now
Not so long ago you were asked to provide the so called quote - you have not done so, nor will you now.
Any public figure accusing an entire racial community of being culturally implanted to have under-age sex would not only have been condemned publicly fro such an obscene statement, but they would have lost any position they held and would have been liable to prosecution under the incitement to race hatred lws
That is the stuff of scummy racist internet sites, not public statements by "prominent figures"
YOU ARE, OF COURSE, FREE TO PROV ME WRONG BY QUOTING AND LINKING ME TO THOSE STATEMENTS BY "PROMINENT PEOPLE" - KEITH REFUSES TO DO SO but please hurry up; none of us are getting any younger.
"The Labour party has made the case - you prove that it is wrong."
No it hasn't Bobad
The Labour party investigated the claims and found them to be not true
You peoe accused Labour of covering them up - Keith accused the Jewish members of Parliament of refusing to specify the claims because of their love for the party
The Israelis were given a leaked version of Labour's report and they have never specified what that antisemitism is apart from criticism of Israel
Feel free to describe the "seriouse problem of antisemitism" in detail
Labour took the accusations seriously and investigated
The Tories were accused of Islamophobia a year ago and have done nothing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 12:11 PM

A large number, many hundreds, of children were groomed and gang raped by BPs in certain northern cities over the last ten years.

I had to keep saying it because you and others either deny it or say it is not significant.

Do you still deny it?
Do you think it significant?
Do you think it racist?

You posted,

When have I ever denied it? Or said it was insignificant?

I speak the English that her maj speaks, Keith. You asked me if I STILL deny it. As I hadn't denied it before, how can I "still" deny it, Keith? Thus my totally non-committal answer, which asked YOU a question you couldn't answer. I don't trust anything you say, with good reason (you told us that Taylor's book was described as "fraudulent" and refused to recant, remember?), so I neither confirmed nor denied anything, did I, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 12:28 PM

The Labour party investigated the claims and found them to be not true

Lol......that's why they suspended 50 plus members. You're making yourself look sillier and sillier by keeping up with your denial.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 12:51 PM

Boring, bobad. Nobody cares.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM

".that's why they suspended 50 plus members.
While the enquiry was going on
What is boring and silly is making accusations and refusing to specify what they are
Utterly stupid and unheard of - make your charges or go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:15 PM

Or, to keep it simple, just go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:18 PM

Raggytash - 27 Feb 17 - 10:37 AM

"You have a problem with names don't you terrikins, Jom, Carroll, Christmas, Shaw, Gnome, Raggy to mention but a few."

So apparently have you - are any of those mentioned above this "professor" you keep asking questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:36 PM

Dave,
So, basically Keith, you are saying that there is an over-represenation of British Pakistanis in the crimes detailed

We both did Dave. Remember?

but even though you do not really know why this is the case, you are happy to propound the theory that it is because of their culture. Is that right?

No. I do not and never have "propounded" it.
As I frequently said at the time, I neither knew nor cared why they did it, I just wanted them to stop.

I only made that post in response to a direct question which you should read to get the context.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:44 PM

Kettle, black, pot Terrikins.

I seem to recall you have a problem with DUAL standards.


Did I spell it wright this time.







PS The error was deliberate

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:53 PM

No quotes Carroll???

I've given you two from people Keith A has previously mentioned:

1: Mohammed Shafiq (chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation):

"Child sex abuse happens in all communities, the white abusers tend to be loners or do it online, or are friends of the victim's family. It's only in on-street grooming that there is an over-representation of Pakistani men."

Just to make this abundantly clear to ALL - a man called Mohammed Shafiq made that statement - Keith A of Hertford DID NOT.

2: Alyas Karmani, a Muslim imam and psychologist, who works in the Pakistani community in major UK cities to combat attitudes that tolerate or encourage sexual violence against women:

"We can't refute the statistics that a disproportionate number of those involved in grooming are British Asian men"

Just to make this abundantly clear to ALL - a man called Alyas Karmani made that statement - Keith A of Hertford DID NOT.

The discussion centres on "on-street grooming" it is not, nor was not centred on child abuse in general, although certain contributors on this thread are attempting to divert the focus to that area.

British-Pakistani definition:

A person of Pakistani ancestry or origin, who was born in or was an immigrant to the United Kingdom, former heartland of the British Empire.

The figures given for 2001 and 2011 are from the official census and the demographic is based on the personal and voluntary categorisation by those taking part. As you can see not being born in the UK does not preclude someone from being described as British-Pakistani.

You asked for a reason why this has happened over the last 20 years - 43% of the Pakistani Community in the UK where born in Pakistan and were brought up in Pakistan therefore their major "cultural" influence is from a childhood being brought up in Pakistan and not of someone who was brought up in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 01:59 PM

And the hits just keep on coming:

A former Labour parliamentary candidate has been suspended and is under investigation after anti-Semitic postings on Twitter.

Former Black Notley Parish Council leader John Clarke was criticised after endorsing a post online which said "The Rothschild Family" has used money lending and Israel to "take over the world."

Claiming the post by 'Tinnelle' (@Tinnelle88) was "an oversimplified view of the world economy but containing a great deal of truth", he was condemned as promoting anti-Semitic material by other users on the social media site.

A Labour Party official has since confirmed that the former Essex politician has been suspended from the party and is under investigation. Clarke also resigned as leader of the Parish Council.

Jeremy Newmark, Chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement said: "We welcome the speed with which the Party have moved to investigate this matter and trust that it will reach an appropriate conclusion as swiftly as possible."

Joe Glasman, Head of Political Investigations at Campaign Against Antisemitism said: "John Clarke's views are utterly abhorrent, but unfortunately they appear to be quite common within the increasingly racist Labour Party, which has been secretly readmitting members who were suspended over anti-Semitism. The Labour Party has not uttered a single word since we exposed Mr Clarke. We have repeatedly stated that we do not consider the Labour Party to be safe for Jews. Sadly for many in Labour, including Mr Clarke, accusations of anti-Semitism are like water off a duck's back, or worse, a badge of honour."

Ex-Labour councillor suspended for 'anti-Semitic' Twitter tirade