BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 17 - 07:06 AM

Oh Jom, thought you'd have known better:

"It was you wasn't it who claimed that you knew more about the negotiations related to the Anglo-Irish Treaty" - my claim

to which you responded - "Liar - I have never made such a claim"

But you did Jom, shall I dig out your post where you claimed to know better than Arthur Griffith and George Gavan Duffy what went on behind closed doors at 22 Hans Place, Knightsbridge in December 1921.

You forget Jom, I have a far better memory than you, I have a far better grasp of detail than you and a far better understanding of history than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 17 - 08:05 AM

KEITH,you need to relisten to the interview.he denounced the violence, that is the same thing it denounces ira violence and uda and uvf violence and violkence by britsh armed forces like bloody sunday , and even handed denunciation of all violence by all involved and that includes the violence of the british army.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 11:11 AM

"shall I dig out your post where you claimed to know better than Arthur Griffith and George Gavan Duffy "
Please do - three Joms doesn't inspire confidence though
You never learn, do you?
Silly little strutter
"she now denounces the IRA for what they did"
Oh that's all right then
Nothing like pragmatism to stay in politics
I wonder if this will emerge during the election - I doubt it somehow
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/britains-secret-terror-deals-truly-disturbing-bbc-panorama-allegations-of-collusion-must-be-fully-investigated-says-amnesty-international-31261593.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 11:36 AM

"If that is not just another lie, QUOTE ME DOING IT!!"
Nearly forgot
Exactly how many times have you denied this
It's certainly documented - hasn't stopped you denying it - witout a shred of proof
"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
You certainly claim to know more than:
"Nahum Goldmann (Hebrew: נחום גולדמן‎) (July 10, 1895 – August 29, 1982) was a leading Zionist and the founder and longtime president of the World Jewish Congress."
I won't even begin to mention the number of times you have dismissed fully documented evidence on the Sabra Shatila massacre - or fully documented reports of the atrocities that took place during the Gaza incursions, or the documented condemnation of the Israeli settlments from international bodies
Your whole arguments have been based on denial of facts - you have never offered anything else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 12:48 PM

Incidentally
Another quote for you to deny, this time from Theodor Herzl - founder of modern Zionism

The earliest insider information we have on Zionism's thinking is from the diary of Theodor Herzl, the founding father of Zionism's colonial-like enterprise. He wrote:
"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country… expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
Those words were committed to paper by Herzl in 1895 but they were not published (in other words they were suppressed) until 1962.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:08 AM

Jim,
Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

Goldman was an enemy of Ben-Gurion.
No-one but Goldman heard him say it. He claims it was in a private conversation, that he never mentioned for ten years then put it in his book when Ben Gurion was safely dead.
It contradicts everything he really said.

In no sense is such an unsubstantiated claim a "documented fact" and you know that because I have put this before you at least twice before.
The quote is a fake.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:28 AM

"questionable, Unverified Source: Clifford claims that Ben-Gurion wrote: "If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural, we have taken their country." In fact, according to Nahum Goldmann, Ben-Gurion allegedly said this to him. Goldmann was an adversary of Ben-Gurion, and he came out with this alleged quote, verbatim, in his book published two decades later (The Jewish Paradox, 1978), five years after Ben-Gurion died. There was no recording of the quote, and Ben-Gurion was no longer around to dispute it."

"And, finally, here's a real Ben-Gurion quote that Clifford chose not to share:
In our state there will be non-Jews as well — and all of them will be equal citizens; equal in everything without any exception; that is: the state will be their state as well. ...The attitude of the Jewish State to its Arab citizens will be an important factor—though not the only one—in building good neighbourly relations with the Arab States. If the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, and if his status will not be the least different from that of the Jew, and perhaps better than the status of the Arab in an Arab state, and if the state will help him in a truthful and dedicated way to reach the economic, social, and cultural level of the Jewish community, then Arab distrust will accordingly subside and a bridge to a Semitic, Jewish-Arab alliance, will be built... (Ba-Ma'Araha Vol IV, Part 2, pp. 260, 265, quoted in Fabricating Israeli History, Efraim Karsh, p.67)"
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

Read the rest to see another faked quote and a list of real quotes that give the lie to what you claim.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 05:49 AM

What a shame then that these alleged aspirations of Ben Gurion are still a million miles from being achieved. The fact that that no Israeli regime has ever shown any appetite for achieving them is at the root of most of the problems the Middle East has endured for over half a century.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:01 AM

Also no Palestinian leaders or groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:02 AM

"Goldman was an enemy of Ben-Gurion."
No he was't
"After the war he worked actively with David Ben-Gurion towards the creation of Israel,[28] although he, with Moshe Shertok, advised Ben-Gurion, in vain, that the declaration of independence be delayed in order to allow more time for reaching a diplomatic entente with the Arabs.[29][30][31] He was concerned that an Arab-Israeli war would break out after the British left their Mandate and the State of Israel was proclaimed.[citation needed]"
You are making this up - why should you do this - thetorical question - you can't stop lying through your teeth
Even if he was he would not make such a thing up publicly - a leading and respected Zionist lying about a respected Jewish Zionist leader - are you completely insane
Zionists have intended to drive out the Arabs as far back as THeodor Hertzl - whose quote you chose to ignore
The other quote from Ben Gurion regarding driving out Arabs comes fro a letter to his son in 1937
Now respond to everything, not just the bits you think you can wriggle around

Some more quotes for you to ignore or deny
"Ben-Gurion said yesterday that he was prepared to accept the [Peel partition] proposal of the Royal commission but on two conditions: [Jewish] sovereignty and compulsory transfer ..... As for the compulsory transfer-- as a member of Kibbutz Ramat Hakovsh [founded in 1932 in central Palestine] I would be very pleased if it would be possible to be rid of the pleasant neighborliness of the people of Miski, Tirah, and Qalqilyah." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 70)
"With regard to the refugees, we are determined to be adamant while the war lasts. Once the return tide starts, it will be impossible to stem it, and it will prove our undoing. As for the future, we are equally determined to explore all possibilities of getting rid, once and for all, of the huge [Palestinian] Arab minority [referring to the Palestinian Israeli citizens of Israel] which originally threatened us. What can be achieved in this period of storm and stress [referring to the 1948 war] will be quite unattainable once conditions get stabilized. A group of people [headed by Yosef Weitz] has already started working on the study of resettlement possibilities [for the Palestinian refugees] in other lands . . . What such permanent resettlement of 'Israeli' Arabs in the neighboring territories will mean in terms of making land available in Israel for settlement of our own people requires no emphasis." (Benny Morris, p. 149-150)
"I imagine that the INTENTION is to get rid of them. The interests of security demand that we get rid of them." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 28)
Ben-Gurion commented on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan as follows in 1937:
"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66).,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:24 AM

Palestinian groups and leaders have been presented with charade after charade dressed up as "peace negotiations" by Israeli regimes that never have to give an inch. Cheers to the US for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:31 AM

Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:52 AM

Well I tend to refer to the politicians, in other words the Israeli regimes. You are obsessed with mentioning Jews. Jim's right about you, isn't he. By constantly associating the Jews with wrongdoing, something that neither Jim nor I ever do, you are in effect the most prominent antisemite on this board. We talk about politicians. Why can't you do the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 06:59 AM

"Lying and fabricating are the stock-in-trade of Jew haters."
Being one yourself - you should know Bobad
You are the only one ever to have attacked Jews on this forum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 07:06 AM

Liar Jim's fake quote,
"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66).,

What ben Gurion really said, liar.
"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs. "
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:03 AM

Well I tend to refer to the politicians, in other words the Israeli regimes.

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and that it tends to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what is purported to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.

Manfred Gerstenfeld, The Deep Roots of Anti-Semitism in European Society. Jewish Political Studies Review 17:1-2 Spring 2005

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 May 17 - 08:25 AM

Well I don't agree with him. And I should like to remind you that attacking the policies of Israeli regimes is not the same as attacking the state of Israel. I don't know how many times I have to tell you: I support the state of Israel and its continued existence. I should like to see Israeli leaders develop the vision to enable all the people of Israel, Jew and non-Jew alike, to have far greater security and peace than they currently endure. They are miles from that at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 09:30 AM

"Liar Jim's fake quote,"
You have been given the source to all these quotes, who made them and when and where they were made and you offer nothing but denials in return
You have just accepted that thois one was genuine by inventing the stupidly untrue suggestion that "Goldman was an enemy of Ben-Gurion."
You aren't even bright enough to stick to your own excuses
Now you are flailing around to defend what was said.
I don't tell lies - I never have
You, in contrast, have heaped up lie after lie to push your hate-filled agenda.
That's what you people do
Your blustering idiot of a mate asked if I would like to be linked to me claiming to know more than the signatories of the treaty - I said "yes please"
He rode off into the sunset.
He claimed to produce have produced a lisrt of my "lies" - he produces only a list of things I have said which contradict his own unqualified arguments
That makes him a meglomanic liar
I have just given you a whole bundle of statements by Ben Gurion, Theodor Hertzl and others - you choose to pretend they are not there
That makes you a liar.

"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return ... The old will die and the young will forget," said David Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, in 1949."
Is the GUARDIAN lying
Did I make all this up - if not, it is you who is lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:27 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 10:30 AM

MANFRED GERSTENFELD ELD ATTACKS HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS ANND OTHER FELLOW JEWS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:08 PM

You have been given the source to all these quotes, who made them and when and where they were made and you offer nothing but denials in return

No Jim. I have produced what he really said.
The people you support have to lie because they have no case otherwise.

The quote "The old will die and the young will forget..." was his prediction in 1949 about the refugees who had left Israel.

Remember that the far more numerous Jewish refugees who had been thrown out of Arab states were given no hope of ever returning. Israel had to settle them all.
The Arab states chose not to resettle the Arab refugees, incarcerating them in camps without human rights or hope to the present day!

The old Jewish refugees have died and the young have forgot, but happily in the Jewish state.
That is how it should have happened for Arab refugees in the Arab states.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:06 PM

"No Jim. I have produced what he really said."
So you7 are saying I have invented them - you called me a liar, so that is the only conclusion to be reached
I have given you at least half a dozen exaples oeof exactly what he said - You choose the one that suits
"was his prediction in 1949 about the refugees who had left Israel."
Do you have any basis for claiming this - especially in the light of the pronounced intention of the founder of Zionism of driving all Arabs out?
No - of course you haven't
Just your disgusting invention of an enmity between Ben Gurion and Nahum Goldman - you made it up.
"Remember that the far more numerous Jewish refugees who had been thrown out of Arab states were given no hope of ever returning."
Absolute ******* nonsense
Palestinian refugees that have been driven out of their homeland without a hope of returning make up the largest number of any national group of refugees on the planet - there are 6.5 million Palestinian refugees scattered over the world today
Want to produce your figure
No?
Thought not!
You are a liar and a fanatic Keith
Jim Carroll

More to ignore - you've had all these before, but it's fun putting them up again to see you ignore them
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992
        
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
        
Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001
        
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - present

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:42 PM

Another
"A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. … I am certain that we well not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreements with our Arab neighbors or by some other means. . . [If the Arabs refuse] we shall have to speak to them in another language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."
As quoted in Chomsky, Noam, Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians (Updated Edition) (South End Press Classics Series).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:36 AM

Jim,
"was his prediction in 1949 about the refugees who had left Israel."
Do you have any basis for claiming this

Yes.
From your post,
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return ... The old will die and the young will forget," said David Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, in 1949."
It is obvious from the context that he was talking about the Arabs who had left Israel in 48/49.


Just your disgusting invention of an enmity between Ben Gurion and Nahum Goldman - you made it up.

"Did Ben-Gurion really say that? Maybe. It's just that (a) there is no independent verification of the quote; (b) it jibes perfectly (suspiciously so) with Goldmann's own views; (c) Goldmann's animosity toward Ben-Gurion was both longstanding and well known; (d) Goldmann waited some twenty-three years after the statement was allegedly made to publicize it; and (e) Ben-Gurion, conveniently dead for five years at the time of the book's publication, was in no position to acknowledge or deny Goldmann's veracity."
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/media-monitor/the-goldmann-paradox/2013/08/21/

"Remember that the far more numerous Jewish refugees who had been thrown out of Arab states were given no hope of ever returning."

It is a fact that many more Jews than Arabs were displaced in 1948-49
Now there are no displaced Jews because Israel settled them all, but millions of Arab refugees because the Arab states refused to settle them.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM

Piss off Keith
Yiou have been givven loads and loads of evidence which you choose to ignore - you offer none
You are your old usual waste of space
Bo-ring
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:09 AM

Jim,
Just your disgusting invention of an enmity between Ben Gurion and Nahum Goldman - you made it up.

"Goldmann's animosity toward Ben-Gurion was both longstanding and well known;"

You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 11:18 AM

"Goldmann's animosity toward Ben-Gurion was both longstanding and well known2
Your (unlinked "again) statement come from CAMRA ((Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America)) - an extremist Zionist site which fully supports the Israeli regime
A description of the organisation below
Nowehere does it attempt to prove the so-called enmity between Ben Gurion and Goldman - it is a straightforward attempt to smear him because of his reporting of what he said.
Little wonder you didn't link it
Now perhaps you might produce that proof rather than quoting (anonymously) ultra-right extremists
Who did you say loses?
Childish little prick
Jim Carroll

ZIONIST CABAL
Zionist cabal tries to hijack Wikipedia
January 9, 2014
By jm
CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) is the Orwellian name of a pro-Israel media watchdog group that monitors, influences, and seeks to control all mainstream media coverage of issues affecting public opinion on all matters related to Israel. It has some 1000 members and chapters in several major American cities. It's staffers scour all media coverage of Israel and "engage and directly contact" (some would say "harass") reporters, editors, producers and publishers concerning what they regard as "distorted or inaccurate coverage" (some would say "the truth") about Israel. They also offer "factual information" (some would say "propaganda") to refute those "errors". The role and influence of the organization is explained in this segment from the excellent documentary "Peace, Propaganda, and the Promised Land."

However, the media landscape is now quickly changing in ways that make CAMERA's tactics less effective. Traditional news organizations are using fewer and fewer journalists and professional editors, and media consumers are increasingly turning to independent websites, blogs, and organizations like Wikipedia for their news and information. This change in how media is produced and consumed might lead some to think that standard pro-Israel narrative that has become the norm in the mainstream media, especially in the US, is about to come undone. But maybe not, for it seems that organizations like CAMERA are now changing their tactics in response to the changing media landscape. A recent article in the Electronic Intifada, based on leaked emails between members of CAMERA, reveals a brazen attempt by that organization to infiltrate Wikipedia precisely in order to slant the complex web of information it contains in a pro-Israel manner.

From the article:
A series of emails by members and associates of the pro-Israel group CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America), provided to The Electronic Intifada (EI), indicate the group is engaged in what one activist termed a "war" on Wikipedia.
A 13 March action alert signed by Gilead Ini, a "Senior Research Analyst" at CAMERA, calls for "volunteers who can work as 'editors' to ensure" that Israel-related articles on Wikipedia are "free of bias and error, and include necessary facts and context." However, subsequent communications indicate that the group not only wanted to keep the effort secret from the media, the public, and Wikipedia administrators, but that the material they intended to introduce included discredited claims that could smear Palestinians and Muslims and conceal Israel's true history.
With over two million articles in English on every topic imaginable, Wikipedia has become a primary reference source for Internet users around the world and a model for collaboratively produced projects. Openness and good faith are among Wikipedia's core principles. Any person in the world can write or edit articles, but Wikipedia has strict guidelines and procedures for accountability intended to ensure quality control and prevent vandalism, plagiarism or distortion. It is because of these safeguards that articles on key elements of the Palestine-Israel conflict have generally remained well-referenced, useful and objective. The CAMERA plan detailed in the e-mails obtained by EI appears intended to circumvent these controls.
After being exposed, CAMERA's plan to infiltrate and control Wikipedia was abandoned, at least temporarily. But this story is a useful reminder of the extent to which these pro-Israeli groups are prepared to go to control the narrative on the Middle East conflict and how vigilant everyone else must be in protecting and spreading the truth about this conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:32 PM

Jim,
Your (unlinked "again) statement come from CAMRA

I did provide a link Jim.
It is that line of blue writing at the bottom of the post.
Here it is again, and it is not whatever it was you said it was.
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/media-monitor/the-goldmann-paradox/2013/08/21/

You lose again.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 04:14 AM

"It is that line of blue writing at the bottom of the post."
There is no "line of blue writing at the bottom of the post" Keith - oyu on the cooking sherry again
The quote you put up traces back directly to the organisation I named "Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America" - that is where it originated and nobody else has ever substantiated it
It is a propaganda attempt to smear a leading Zionist to cover up what Ben Gurion said
The Israeli regime has made doubly sure by locking up all Beg Gurion's papers that contain such incriminating evidence despite they should be legally accessible to all
Your childish "you lose" stupidity is unbelievable - you appear to treat the Jewish people with such contempt that you regard these arguments as a "win-lose" game, like 'Grand theft auto' - are you really that mindless?
Nobody will ever "win" anything until they come up with a decent argument
You will only do that when you ,font color=red>ADDRESS EVERY SINGLE STATEMENTT - BY BEN GURION AND OTHERS, THAT YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN
So far, you have used a smear by an extreme right Israel group as a diversion away from the main point
Beg Gurion said what he said, as did all the others you have had quoted
Israel's aim has always been tio rid the area of Arabs and create a purely Jewish State - that is ethnic cleansing by any definition.
Answer that, and you might "win something" - which appears to be your sole aim
You are basically an antisemite with no interest in the Jewish People, when you are not trying to "win" something, you are defending an ultra-right Israeli administration   
Grow up, for fuck's sake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:21 AM

Incidentally Keith
You do realise that you have completely reversed your position on Beg Gurion's statement since I first put it up
Your excuse then was the he was acting as Devil's Advocate' and putting himself in the posiion of the Palestinians rather than stating what he believed himself
No you have completely reversed your position and are suggesting that the leading Zionist who related the quote was lying because he was an enemy of Ben Gurion
Mkae upo your mind if you wish to "win" anything
Why should anybody waste time on debating with a half-wit who changes his story from minute to minute?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 17 - 12:26 PM

Jim, I gave the link in my post and repeated it for you.
It is the blue writing that follows the quote.

It is a propaganda attempt to smear a leading Zionist to cover up what Ben Gurion said

It does not. My article was written for Jews who would know if it lied about their relationship.
It does not deny the statement, it merely points out that Goldman alone heard it, no-one could verify it, it contradicted everything he really said, and Goldman kept quiet for twenty years then put it in a book when Ben Gurion was safely dead and unable to deny it.

It is an documented, unverified and highly unlikely claim.

You complain about my sources but you use extreme political sites that are hardly household names. Has anyone heard of "Examined Life?" It has not even got a Wiki page. Is it even safe to click on such sites?

ADDRESS EVERY SINGLE STATEMENTT - BY BEN GURION AND OTHERS, THAT YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN

No. I have shown that some are fake so none can be relied on. It would be a full time job to follow up the screenfulls of shit you put up.

Irael's aim has always been tio rid the area of Arabs and create a purely Jewish State

Not very successful then Jim!! Has one single Arab left Israel since 1949?
Has the Arab population crashed from persecution?
No. It thrives and grows faster than the Jewish population despite Jewish immigration.

Your excuse then was the he was acting as Devil's Advocate' and putting himself in the posiion of the Palestinians rather than stating what he believed himself

I made that point before I discovered that we only have Goldman's word that he said it at all!
It is still a valid point.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 01:25 PM

Doesn't matter whether you did or not Keith - I've given you the source of that quote and the veracity of the people who issued it
You choose to ignore the fact that they are extremist right-wing loonies who are prepared to attack a leading member of the Zionist faith by calling him a liar
They provide no prood whatever of the antipathy they claim and reports of it appear nowhere else other than from a right wing loonie organisation
"No. I have shown that some are fake so none can be relied on."
You have shown nothing - you have denied everything without proof
I know from exop[periance (of your "implant" witnesses, for instance) that it is a waste of my time asking you to link to that "proof"
You are a disgusting waste of space Keith - an ethnic cleanser denier writ largehttp://mudcat.org/blickifier.cfm
I'll leave you to wallow in your dishonesty and inhumanity (you have long forgotten that the VICTIMS of the ISRAELI REGIME are human beings)
Wallow away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 17 - 02:28 PM

I've given you the source of that quote and the veracity of the people who issued it

Yes and it is rubbish!
The source is Goldman's unverified claim supposedly made twenty years later and five years after there was no Ben Gurion to deny it.
You would never accept such shit from me.

They provide no prood whatever of the antipathy they claim

They did not need to. They were writing for a Jewish audience who would be well aware of it, and who would know if it was untrue.

Before I click on your latest link, or anyone else does, tell us what it leads to.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:17 PM

So a leading Zionist is a liar
Doesn't say much for the rest of them if he is prepared to denigrate Israel's greatest statesman
What king of an outfit are toy defending here?
Denials and lies- nothing but denials and lies
Booooooo- ring
Where are your links showing "that some are fake so none can be relied on".
You won't produce any which proves you are lying
And as most of these statements come from Israeli press reports - you are claiming them as liars as well
That'll do nicely
Seems you are on your own Keith
Your mate offered to prove my claiming I knew more than Irish statements and then did a runner
Doubt if he'l be back before Christmas
Even he appears to think you're not worth supporting
Don't forget those links now!!!!
I don't think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 17 - 04:29 AM

So a leading Zionist is a liar

Why not. He was hardly a "leading Zionist" by then though.
As Edward Tivnan said in his 1987 book The Lobby,
"Goldmann had created the Presidents Conference to prevent the kind of dissent among American Jewish leaders that he himself was now sowing. The raison d'etre of the group was to present a united front to the White House on Middle East matters. But, of course, that was back when Goldmann's friends were running Israel.
Now that [Menachem] Begin was running the Jewish state, Goldmann was willing to do anything to undermine his policies – including destroying his own pressure group."


Where are your links showing "that some are fake so none can be relied on".
You won't produce any which proves you are lying

I thought I had.
Please identify one that I have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 17 - 06:35 AM

"I thought I had.
Please identify one that I have not."
You are a liar Keith - you thought nothing of the sort
You have not proved a single one nor have you attempted to
You are lying through your teeth
You have enough of them all on this thread - show where you have disproved any
Are you so lacking in self respect that you continue to lie in public - over and over and over again
Sickening and now becoming embarrassing
Jim Carroll

The Lobby: JEWISH POLITICAL POWER AND AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY by Edward Tivnan (Simon & Schuster: $17.95; 288 pp.)
May 31, 1987|Steven L. Spiegel | Spiegel is a professor of political science at UCLA. His latest book, "The Other Arab-Israeli Conflict: Making America's Middle East Policy, From Truman to Reagan," won a 1986 National Jewish Book Award

"Edward Tivnan's "The Lobby: Jewish Political Power and American Foreign Policy" is a snide, sometimes bitter, largely trivial and even boring account of the role of the American Jewish community's efforts on behalf of Israel. Not as informed or as thoughtful as other critical accounts of pro-Israeli efforts in this country, Tivnan paints his story in black and white. Worthy of approval are Israeli and American Jewish critics of Israeli government policies, liberals, moderate Arab leaders, especially King Hussein, and American politicians who criticize Israeli policy. Tivnan bears no sympathy for conservatives either in Israel or America, the Likud Party in Israel, vociferous American supporters of Israel, including politicians, Jewish leaders and in particular the organization most closely identified as the pro-Israeli lobby in Washington, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)."

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 17 - 10:31 AM

....but you can not identify one single claim of mine that needs proving.
Funny that!

I take it that you approve of Tivnan as he is so anti-conservative, so I did well to quote him in support of my case.
Another point to me I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 17 - 11:22 AM

Do not be stupid Keith
Try these for size
You are a liar Keith - you have not responded to one
When you get round to showing where you have "disproved" any of these, there are plenty more in the pipeline
Shouldn't be too difficult - you are using "having answered these" as an excuse nor t to respond to any
Take your pick
Jim Caroll

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist."
-- Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
-- Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.

"Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen."
-- Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992
         
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
      
Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001
         
"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - present

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 17 - 01:13 PM

Well Keith?
Links to answers that you have given all all of these?
No/
Funny that!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 May 17 - 01:41 PM

I have not commented on any of them Jim!
You accused me of making claims without proof.
OK. What were they?

It would be a full time job to follow up the screenfulls of shit you put up.
You made an accusation against me, but as ever there is no truth in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 17 - 03:02 PM

"I have not commented on any of them Jim!"
You said you had responded toll of them and gave that as a reason for not trusting any of them
More lies
This was your claim
"No. I have shown that some are fake so none can be relied on."
Then
"I thought I had. Please identify one that I have not."
Now
"I have not commented on any of them Jim!"
""It would be a full time job to follow up the screenfulls of shit you put up.""
One minute you are claimming to answered the points next minute you say you have answered none and say they are not worth answering
You are a serial liar, an atrocity denier and a supporter of State terrorism
"Another point to me I think."
And you make a Grand Theft Auto, point scoring game of a discussion on The Jewish People and Israel's mass murder of innocent civilians
You are one sick, antisemitic, attention-seeking cookie
I think you've proved that more than sufficiently Keith
Finished with you, you sad evil little man
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 17 - 05:42 AM

You said you had responded toll of them and gave that as a reason for not trusting any of them

If that is true, QUOTE ME!

I did say, "I have shown that some are fake so none can be relied on."
I stand by it. Your quotes come from obscure, agenda ridden political sites that I have never heard of, not recognised media organs or news agencies.
Why should anyone believe them?
I showed that a quote you gave was a faked, edited version of what he really said according to Wiki-Quotes.
I gave a list of reasons why another could not be believed.

As usual when you lose you resort to lies, name calling and personal attack. It is your equivalent of a white flag.

Where are your links showing "that some are fake so none can be relied on".
You won't produce any which proves you are lying

I thought I had.
Please identify one that I have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 May 17 - 04:35 AM

Now that Jim's obsessional anti-Israel crusade has been stopped, perhaps we can resume the subject.
Labour has run a very successful election campaign and the Tories have been very inept.
The Tory lead has been closing dramatically and a repeat of their landslide in the Council elections seems much less likely.

May may have miscalculated badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 17 - 11:12 AM

I think a win for Mr Corbyn may be a poisoned chalice, and could end his career.
The biggest problem is Brexit, Mr Corbyn has always been anti-EU, while the Parliamentary Party are solidly in favour of retaining membership.....They are quite capable of political assassination once in power. Mr Corbyn is also at odds with the Parliamentary Party on other issues, i.e. the replacement of Trident.

A win for Labour given the present crop of MPs could lead to a complete breakdown of authority.....not a good thing when taking on the Bureaucrats of Brussels.

Personally I would prefer to see a modest victory for Mrs May, who at least will go into battle with a united force.
Mr Corbyn's day will no doubt come.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 May 17 - 12:24 PM

"once in power" ............Hmmm I think some factions of the party have had a bloody good go while in opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 17 - 03:13 PM

Labour getting nobbled in Scotland, which I'm sure will be more or less repeated, makes it next to impossible for them to win. If the gap can be closed to something like what was like in 2015, and the LibDems pick up a few seats, there's a remote possibility of a hung parliament I suppose but with the Tories being the far larger party. That would be very interesting in these new days of two-party politics. The implosion of UKIP is another intriguing factor. Corbyn has done a lot better than anyone really expected and Theresa May looks wooden and unattractive. Then there's the distinct possibility of a low turnout due to election fatigue/referendum fatigue/they're-all-crap-anyway syndrome. I think Keith may be right. Yes, I really did say that!

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: DMcG
Date: 29 May 17 - 04:06 AM

I think it unlikely Labour win, but I don't think the situation in Scotland is quite so clear cut. The SNP did an incredible job last time, and repeating it would be difficult. Even one or two seats for Labour in Scotland could turn out to be crucial to the national picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: MikeL2
Date: 29 May 17 - 02:59 PM

Hi Steve

I understand what you are saying but I detect hope hope rather than expectation in your comments.

As we all know the polls cannot be used as anything like accurate.

I went to a birthday party yesterday where half of the 40 guests were from Cheshire and half from Liverpool.

From the comments almost all the Cheshire side will not be voting for Corbyn. No surprise here because they all voted for Brexit in the referendum.

But surprisingly, a large percentage of the Liverpool folk who voted against leaving said the will not be voting Labour any more and will be voting for Mrs May. This IS surprising because they usually vote Labour.

So it seems that forecasting accurately what will happen is almost impossible.

Regards

MikeL2

PS See you in Europe later in the year!!




,

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:03 AM

From the comments almost all the Cheshire side will not be voting for Corbyn. No surprise here because they all voted for Brexit in the referendum.

But surprisingly, a large percentage of the Liverpool folk who voted against leaving said the will not be voting Labour any more and will be voting for Mrs May. This IS surprising because they usually vote Labour.


So, half will not be voting Labour because they are for Brexit and half will not be voting Labour because they are for remaining. How does that work then? The Tories, goaded by UKIP, took to the polls to ask an unqualified and misled populace to make a decision that they should have made in the first place and because the country is split over it it is all the fault of Jeremy Corbyn?

Ah well. As they say around here, there's nowt so queer as folk.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Uk Labour Party discussion II
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 May 17 - 06:08 AM

All the parties supported a referendum.
They all believed that us "unqualified and misled" people would vote their way.

What qualification do you need to vote Dave?
Does not misleading work both ways?